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Markustay
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USA
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Posted - 09 Nov 2017 :  19:43:23  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have to go out for several hours right now, buuuuut...

I found an exact quote somewhere (I'll have to dig it up) that says Wo Mai was the 'first emperor of Shou'. Now, if we consider Anok-Imaskar wasn't really the 1st empire (it was actually the last empire/era of Imaskar), then we can fudge this bit with Wo Mai and say he was the emperor of the first official 'empire of Shou-Lung' (which may have still been referred to as the 'Kao kingdom/Empire'), because we KNOW Tan Chin was the emperor of the other '1st' empire (actually the final, dying bit of Imaskar). The histories were modified for the first time during the Kao dynasty period, so this all works out perfect. Thus, we can have THREE 'first emperors'. LOL

I believe the relevant quote will be in the timeline in Mad Monkey vs Dragonclaw, which probably has THE most complete timeline I've seen of Kara-Tur (outside Brian James' original GHotR). Thats the last source I recall digging through to try to wrap my mid around some sort of factual 'timeline of the east'. Wo Mai was friends with Tan Chin, so after Tan Chin's 'fall' (the whole thing where he got corrupted by Meilan), Wo Mai would have taken up the mantle of emperor (perhaps secretly FOR his friend, who was tilling 'pulling strings' in the background), and founded the Kao dynasty. Except for my supposition that he may have been working with Tan Chin, all of this is canon.

On the other hand, he may have been a douchy friend, and perhaps he introduced Tan Chin to Meilan, so he could discredit him and takeover Shou-Lung. Now, considering people in the east can be both villains and heroes at the same time, he could have had any number of reasons for doing that, including altruistic ones. So many ways to spin it.

Also, I hadn't realized 'till now that tan Chin wasn't really 'enemies' with the Black leopard - he FREED Buhei from those Chains of Po whatever. The SAME exact chain that was later used to bind the dragon that he turned into the Dragonwall (maybe he just wanted the chain, and didn't care about the Black leopard at all?) It seems the 'emperor of Shou' didn't go after The Black leopard until after Tan Chin's fall - thats the part I never realized before. There is definitely something covert going on in the background there.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

@BadCatMan - well, we agree on many things, but I can say that the Dragonwall is not one. Honestly, if it weren't just SOOOO derivative of China's Great Wall, then yes... I'd love it (like you say, the idea of GoT)... but they've made it too derivative... even to the point of saying things like its one of the few manmade things you can tell from outer space, etc... The worst part is I'm not sure HOW to make it palatable now.
AGREED

Had they done some cool stuff with it right from the beginning, it wouldn't have been so bad. But the way they left it (boring), and then completely made it seem irrelevant in the novels, its like, "what the hell was the point?" When When the Tuigan wanted in, they had no problem.

Also, somewhere in the canon (I'll have to go look for that as well - probably The Horde box), it says that from time-to-time parts of the wall were breached, the same way Yamun khahan did it - by releasing part of the spirit of the dragon in just a section. However, in the novel it looks as thought he dragon's entire spirit was released. The sourcebook lore may have been a 'fix' to the novel lore - I'll have to check the dates. Maybe they back-peddled on the whole 'the dragon spirit was released' thing, and came up with that explanation (which is still pretty wishy-washy... how do you release 'parts' of a spirit along an entire wall? the spirit had holes in it?)

I have some ideas - what would be a good name for a 'landrise' that sounds more oriental/kara-Tur? Also, I'm not sure what happened to the Tuigan as of 4e/5e, but in 3e they became somewhat docile - they were just collecting 'taxes' and not killing folks. At that point, the wall would have been unnecessary.

Of course, I'd like to get rid of the Tuigan altogether, or just turn them all into Hobgoblins (there was one tribe composed of those). Another derivation 5e is best left without.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 09 Nov 2017 20:03:42
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2017 :  20:06:07  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Disregard about half of what I said above - I keep getting his poet-friend mixed up with Wo Mai, dammit! Wo Mai may have never met Tan Chin - MY BAD.

I'll fix it all later, I am SO late going somewhere right now (like at least 3 hours).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 09 Nov 2017 20:06:35
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Lord Karsus
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USA
3197 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2017 :  20:34:46  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-The concept of the Dragonwall, to me, is fine. I think that it was made too generic and bland in the sourcebook(s) and novel(s). More shoulda/could been done to stress how far and desolate it was from the rest of Shou Lung, how foreign the lands were as compared to the rest of Shou Lung, and things like that. Give it some gravitas and allure, as compared to just another fortress, albeit a big one at the border, infused with the soul of a dragon (that really didn't do anything, when you think about it).

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I have some ideas - what would be a good name for a 'landrise' that sounds more oriental/kara-Tur? Also, I'm not sure what happened to the Tuigan as of 4e/5e, but in 3e they became somewhat docile - they were just collecting 'taxes' and not killing folks. At that point, the wall would have been unnecessary.

Of course, I'd like to get rid of the Tuigan altogether, or just turn them all into Hobgoblins (there was one tribe composed of those). Another derivation 5e is best left without.


-That is pretty much what the steppe people have been doing for thousands of years. Become the big man on campus, everyone pays you tribute, taxes, call it what you will, and if you don't pay up, you got problems. I was listening to a podcast on the Huns the other day (The Fall of Rome podcast, very educational and an easy listen), a lot of the notions that we, as westerners, have of nation-states aren't exactly applicable to steppe cultures (and the Plains Indians). The dominant group might not actually have any organized presence in an area, but are still the dominant group that others pay tribute to, because the mobility of the steppe people (and the Plains Indians) made the notion of strict borders and stuff irrelevant. Random tangent.


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Edited by - Lord Karsus on 09 Nov 2017 20:42:03
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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 09 Nov 2017 :  22:46:00  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay



I have some ideas - what would be a good name for a 'landrise' that sounds more oriental/kara-Tur?



randrise?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2017 :  02:09:33  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Interesting note - in the Corsairs Domain it talks about a time in the distant past (before the official AQ timeline begins) when a 'Corsair Lord' ruled over a 1000 pirate ships. A bit much, eh?

But wait, it gets better.

Lets go straight east - and hop over the little bit of land there (ya know, those itty-bitty Yehimal mountains LOL) - to the body of water on the other side of that isthmus, The Segara sea. In the Ronin Challenge book they also talk about a 'legendary pirate of the isles' who commanded a 1000 ships, and he demanded tribute from Tempat Larang (Shou-Lung's most southerly holding*)

So we either got two 'Pirate Lords' operating fairly close to each (albeit, with a rather tall chunk of land between), who both command a 1000 ships, right around the same time period, or we have one very successful pirate lord who ruled all the seas around Zakhara at some point. What do you guys think? Add to the legend and make it one guy, or keep them separate, even though their stories are similar (one operating along the west coast of Zakhara, the other, the east coast). As a side note, both groups were defeated through trickery.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay



I have some ideas - what would be a good name for a 'landrise' that sounds more oriental/kara-Tur?


randrise?

Thats TERRIBLE

Funny, but awful.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 10 Nov 2017 02:12:28
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sfdragon
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Posted - 10 Nov 2017 :  05:13:27  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd say the same pirate lord

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2017 :  16:04:51  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thats my thoughts as well, even though they'd have to sail around the whole of Zakhara, that land is completely surrounded by islands, so it makes sense. Especially when we consider how far pirates travelled RW.

I wonder if there are Devil Fruit around Zakhara?

I was doing lots of reading/research last night, but it was so late I couldn't get my thoughts into something coherent. I found lots of stuff regarding the weird K-T timeline - even the GHotR names Tan Chin as the emperor of Shou-Lung, a bunch of entries before saying Nung Fu is the first emperor. Tentatively, I am going on the premise I laid out above - Tan Chin (who is also called Tsao Choo in other material) ruled Anok-Imaskar, the final 'empire of Imaskar' (after he apparently stole the crown from someone else - before that he was just another Imaskari Artificer... we think). Then Meilan is sent to seduce Tan Chin, and he is defeated (the Celstial Bureaucracy got involved here, but there are a couple of different versions... maybe*). Here's a relevant passage from Ronin Challenge:
quote:
"Into the court of Tsao Choo they sent a single concubine, Meilan. She was of great beauty and cleverness, enhanced a thousandfold by evil enchantments so that no mortal could resist her. Meilan bewitched the great king with her beauty so that he acted as if he were drunk on a thousand bottles of tiger wine. As her silken nets tightened, Tsao Choo became more desperate for her.
"At Meilan's command, the Emperor imprisoned his wife and dismissed many of his advisors. Then she goaded him into delaying his plans for building a great province around Tempat Larang. Ahp Hijan, the Minister of State and one of the Emperor's closest friends, urged him to reconsider. When he questioned Meilan's motives, the Emperor ordered his head cut off, but just as the executioner's sword was raised, Tsao Choo commuted the sentence to exile in the Salju Mountains.
The 'they' at the beginning there refers to the Black Maut Cult, which I think 'may' be the same as the Black Leopard Cult - a group of disgruntled nobles. This made me think that Buhei (the Black Leopard) was himself at odds with Tan Chin, but it turns out he was actually a prisoner of his own cult, and it was Tan Chin who freed him, although its never really stated anywhere what their relationship was like before or after.

And this brings me to one of the most annoying aspects of the lore (for me), because its what keeps causing my confusion. The poet wu jen Kar Wuan (who is said to be Tan Chin's brother!) helps him break the Ivory Chain of Po binding The Black leopard (and I only just now found ANOTHER name for him - Hei Te Pao.) Later, Tan Chin and Kar Wuan bind the dragon with the same chain to make The Dragonwall (and also used a mirror - two artifacts were involved). Wo mai (I still need to find the reference that said he became emperor) also bound 'a monster', but it was with the Acorn of Wo Mai, yet another item from the Book of Artifacts (I never realized before that 3/4 of the artifacts in that book are from Toril). I think way back when I first read this stuff, some of the stories were so similar they just blended together in my head.

And as I go back through the stuff in Black Courser, I realize that new options have opened up to us post-3e. Why the heck did Tan Chin build a new capital way out in the middle of nowhere (aside from he had Meilan whispering in his ear)? There are giant ants all over that place now (or a century ago, depending on you PoV), and that just screams 'magical radiation' to me. What if the site was chosen because its sitting on top of a buried primordial? It could put a whole new spin on some of the events of his life.


*In one account (Ronin Challenge) it says Spirit (Celestial) dragons confront Tan Chin, and in the other (Black Courser) its says it was the Nine Immortals, and while at first my thoughts were that the two counts were at odds, now I am thinking they were the same thing. Asian folklore often has divine beings (spirits/Kami) having both a human form, and draconic/bestial/monstrous one. And Black Courser actually says that a LOT of Tan Chin's history was fabricated, or at least embellished, to make him out to be 'the people's hero'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 10 Nov 2017 16:10:08
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 10 Nov 2017 :  16:36:33  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Now this is odd - the only place I can find it said that Wo Mai was crowned emperor is in the GHotR - I am wondering if this was something added post-3e? (because that was the last 3e source, and ushered-in 4e). I will keep looking, of course.
quote:
–225 DR Year of the Golden Staff
The Black Cycle of Years ends in Shou Lung with the coronation of Wo Mai, a noble claiming descent from Nung Fu himself. Wo Mai recovers the Emblems of Imperial Authority from the crypts beneath the Imperial City, rallies the armies and other nobles, and crushes the rebellious outlying provinces. Wo Mai becomes the first Emperor Chin of the Kao (High) Dynasty.
So there you have it. Three 'first emperors' (although Wo Mai is the first emperor of a particular dynasty).

Also, I just noticed that ALL the temples in Meilan had been converted to the worship of Lei Kung, the Lord of Thunder. Now, considering his description, I've long felt that he was actually a Demon lord that was raised to a position of authority within the Celestial Bureaucracy (they aren't bigots in the CB - they'll give anyone a job LOL). However, given his power level, and my musings elsewhere, I might even consider him an obyrith at this point. Regardless, we know that it was Meilan (the woman) that was really pulling the strings in Meilan (the city), which means she is the one that had all the temples to the other CB deities changed to Lei Kung. Now why would she do that? Strong evidence, me thinks, that both were actually demons the whole time (she is a succubus).

Man, is K-T lore convoluted. And I didn't even want to touch upon it too much in this thread. I wouldn't had to even go there if tan chin had not been involved with tempat larang 9at the exact same time he was involved with Meilan!)

On the other hand, as I said above, we have new avenues to explore in the post-3e world. he seemed to be heavily interested in both locales, and the Larang Valleys are known to have deep connections to divine powers (energy). Heck, one of the Nine Immortals even lives there. I'm starting to get this somewhat new picture in my head of this guy - he was desperate to find 'new sources of power'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 10 Nov 2017 16:37:50
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Markustay
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USA
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Posted - 10 Nov 2017 :  18:10:04  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
*UGH* I never even finished my train of thought above...

Vague timeline:
1) Imaskar falls, and separates into several kingdoms. Anok Imaskar is one such to arise, with a female emperor (I have to find her name)
2) Tan Chin removes her from power, and takes over Anok Imaskar. He seems to rule fairly well for about a 1000 years.
3) During his reign, Tan Chin (also Tsao Choo) does a few epic, 'heroic' things, which may or may not be entirely true.
4) He falls (because of Meilan) and the Nine Immortals apparently rule for a time.
5) Nung Fu is given the title of emperor by the Immortals and he becomes 'first emperor of Shou-Lung'.
6) Wo Mai defeats the Copper demon of Troos and imprisons it in the Acorn of Wo mai*
7) Wo Mai becomes emperor after the Black Cycle of Years. He takes the name 'Chin' and is considered the 'Kao' dynasty (some confusion there, eh? Wo Mai is literally 'First Emperor Chin of the Kao dynasty!)

*I have connected this event to several other things: The 'Copper Demon' is actually Ma Yuan (Chinese Pantheon), who has been trapped inside a Raumathari 'juggernaught' (battle-suit) since the Great Conflagration. After the war, he gathers an army (of both monsters and humans) and takes over Troos, the capital of Tsharoon. Wo Mai shows up and captures him, freeing Tsharoon (which doesn't seem to help them much, since their country turns into the Quoya Desert soon after - I have to figure out a way to connect that). The army that the CDoT lead would have been the Kalmyk, who later split off into the Suren (The Horde materials). Some of that is also covered in the Horselords novel. I forget which group was which - I have to go back through the descriptions of the two leaders of those forces to figure it out again. Ma Yuan - technically being a member of the Celestial Bureaucracy - is finally freed during the ToT.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 10 Nov 2017 18:15:27
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BadCatMan
Learned Scribe

Australia
335 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2017 :  01:58:55  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No no no.

Wo Mai is the first emperor of the Kao Dynasty, not of any empire of Shou Lung. He is the first of Kao Dynasty – Kao the First if you like. There are seven first Emperor Chins of the seven dynasties. These are all listed in the Shou histories and in Grand History. That's all it means. "Emperor Chin" is a weird title that all Shou Lung emperors have.

Wo Mai's story in KT lore is first mentioned in the chronology in the module Ochimo the Spirit Warrior, and in the Acorn of Wo Mai. Grand History didn't change it one bit.

What Grand History did do is slot Tan Chin and the mortal Nine Immortals into a newly invented period before modern Shou Lung history. It also retconned the Tempat Larang story in Ronin Challenge to the still-earlier, newly created Anok-Imaskar period under Kujawa, splitting it from Ronin Challenge's Joon Tsao Choo story, which still pertains to Tan Chin in the later period. It invented the three Ages of Shou Lung (historical eras, not continuations of the same empire) to cover over how these events are still Shou Lung history while not being part of Shou Lung.

The First Age of Shou Lung (-2487 DR to -1943 DR) is marked by Anok-Imaskar under Emperor Kujawa (Imaskari artificer, yes). This is centred on Ra-Khati and Katakoro, but dominated the later lands of Shou Lung. This made the extension to Tempat Larang and the empire building in the south. Kujawa died to a t'ien lung (celestial) dragon (whom we theorise to be the immortal Nung Chiang on the wiki), and the empire collapsed.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Anok-Imaskar

The Second Age of Shou Lung (-1887 DR to -1289 DR) is a time of several separate kingdoms arising from the collapse of Anok-Imaskar, ruled at various times by the mortal emperors who would be the Nine Immortals, and presumably others less important, and ending in Tan Chin/Joon Tsao Choo.

The Third Age of Shou Lung (-1250 DR to present) is the time of the modern empire of Shou Lung, beginning with Nung Fu and continuing through the next seven dynasties. Wo Mai only took power after the hiccup of the Black Cycle of Years. He did not found a new Shou Lung empire, only a new dynasty, and hence is the first of that dynasty. Wo Mai is a great hero emperor, but that's all.

In short, Ronin Challenge's history is indeed wholly garbled and contradictory to established Shou Lung history, and so was split up and retconned into a tidy order by Grand History. In retrospect, Awagi Nukichi's account could be seen to be mistakenly conflating Kujawa and Tan Chin in the person of Joon Tsao Choo (both defeated by a dragon) and the falls of Anok-Imaskar and Kuo Meilan.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2017 :  04:55:08  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not really all that different from what had, except you separated (and explains it) better.

Here's my whole problem with wrapping my head around Wo Mai - he seems more 'in tune' with Tu'Lung than Shou-Lung. I feel like he should be very important in Shou hstory, but he's more of a 'footnote'. My thinking there is that some of the things he accomplished may have been attributed to others, like Tan Chin, because of historic re-writes, but only in Shou-Lung. In other words, I think the folk of Tu'Lung on't 'fiddle' with their hsitroeuis as much as the northerners do, and that's where some of our discrepancies may arise.

The other problem with that is that the Copper Demon of Troos was specifically mentioned as being 'active' in the Taan region, or at least in the Plain of Horses (oddly close to Meilan, in fact). He was the leader of the Kalmyk (Taangan tribes and monsters). Wo Mai defeats him and returns to the imperial capital, but doesn't become emperor himself until later. Also, there is a bit of history that specifically says that Tu'Lung troops were primarily responsible for repulsing one of the last major incursions of 'horse barbarians' (Battle of the Silver Grasslands, long before Yamun Khahan). How is Tu'Lung so active in the Hordelands region, when they don't even share a border with it? True, it was part of Shou-lung in those instances, but why is the empire marching a 'southern army' all the way north (unless the northern army was already defeated - highly possible - or they were busy with another threat, and given the logistics, that could have only come from the sea). Given that's the year 80 DR, and Shou was 'at war' with Wa in -274 DR, obviously there was a threat from that direction around that time. I'm thinking the emperor (of Shou) was raising armies in the south to defend against the western threat, because their northern troops were all busy defending the northern lands (and the emperor). It almost seems like the Shou were using the southerners as 'canon fodder', so Tu's resentment (and eventual revolt) makes a lot of sense.

Still can't really wrap my mind around bringing an army up from Tu'Lung all the way up to the Dragonwall, though.

Also, we have TWO different Celestial dragons involved with shou emperors? Could it have been the same dragon? Do we have a name for the one that killed Kujawa? It could be Tan Chin was just 'getting even'. Also, I thought it was an empress involved with Anok-Imaskar... where am i remebering an empress from? Like a 'Jade empress', or some-such.

Anyway, thanks for clarifying. I ahdn't realized the GHotR stretched-out the lore, the same as I've been doing elsewhere. That works for me (not sure if it works for Tan Chin though). It makes more sense to what I am visualizing now - Tampat Larang and Meilan were 'anchoring' the two furthest (eastern) points from the empire's core (the northern and southernmost points).

I think the biggest problem is calling them the 'Three Ages of Shou-Lung', when the first existed before there was a Shou-Lung - thats confusing. It should just be the 'Three Ages of Kara-Tur'. Of course, I am adding a 'prehistoric age' before even all that.

So.....

Prehistory (tribal migrations and displacements)
Three ages of Imaskar
Anok Imaskar
'Warlords/Dozen Kingdoms' period (which include my theoretical 'Kao Kingdom' - these would become provinces of Shou-Lung, eventually)
First Empire of Shou-Lung (of which there were seven dynasties)

I think I am growing weary of K-T stuff much quicker than the last time. At least it seems some of it has been officially fix now. Time to head back to my Utter East.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 11 Nov 2017 06:29:50
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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 11 Nov 2017 :  07:58:53  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tu Lung went on the expansion as a proxy of shou. So tu lung conquers a bunch of lands and claims sovereignty over them but all the lands are ultimately under shou control because shou rules tu lung. Do tu lung gets the taxes and the goods from these lands and the shou get to tax those taxes.

Empires rule kingdoms. Kingdoms expand. Empire gets bigger. However when one kingdom gets too big and powerful then you get a civil war as it tries to conquer the empire or secede from it

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BadCatMan
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Posted - 11 Nov 2017 :  08:50:46  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wo Mai defeated and bound the demigod Copper Demon of Tros, ended half-a-century of strife and stabilised the empire, becoming emperor and founding one of the greatest dynasties. He was never a footnote, and he did quite enough on his own.

Why T'u Lung / southern Shou forces? The same reason empires always move people and armies around: you don't put forces where they have more loyalty to local people in the event of a schism or rebellion and their own homes and families to desert to. You put them on the far side of the empire, where their only loyalty is to the chain of command. The northerners seem to mix enough with the horse-plains people as it is.

Kujawa was killed by "the celestial dragon T'ien Lung" (tGHotR), but a t'ien lung (also called a celestial dragon) is just a type of weather dragon. It's like a red dragon named Red Dragon. Either it's an ur-example of the breed, the westerners (or writers) got it wrong, the dragon's name is unknown, or it's one of the Nine Immortals in dragon form (which they do). In Ronin Challenge, the Immortal Nung Chiang (who opposed the development of Tempat Larang) appears as a t'ien lung. FRW editor Hashimashadoo interpreted that "T'ien Lung" was Nung Chiang (but this has Nung Chiang predate the other Immortals by quite a bit).

Joon Tsao Choo was killed by an unnamed "spirit dragon" in Ronin Challenge, implied to be Nung Chiang (who is also said to appear as a spirit dragon in the book). A spirit dragon is another name for a shen lung. However, at this point, Awagi Nukichi should be considered to be highly dubious, if not full of crap.

Tan Chin, we know, was defeated by the Immortal Chih Shih. I don't know if he took a dragon form to do it, but he probably did, maybe as a shen lung.

As for the empress, you're thinking of this from tGHotR: "–1377 DR: Using powerful Imaskari artifacts unearthed in the ruins of Thakos, the artificer Tan Chin assassinates the Sapphire Empress Kwan Ying and assumes the throne of Shou Lung. The new emperor renames Ten Mor Shou to Kuo Meilan, after his consort." That's in the Second Age of Shou Lung, and Kwan Ying became one of the Nine Immortals.

The Three Ages of Shou-Lung helps explain how Ronin Challenge's history and Tan Chin's exploits can be attributed to "Shou Lung" without actually being Shou Lung and agreeing with the main history. Later Shou Lung historians have probably appropriated these as precursors to the current empire, giving their culture greater age and legitimacy, and allowing the empire to claim anything that was ever once ruled by a past empire (as China does now).

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Edited by - BadCatMan on 11 Nov 2017 13:21:46
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BadCatMan
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Posted - 11 Nov 2017 :  13:19:36  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mis-edited.

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
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Edited by - BadCatMan on 11 Nov 2017 13:20:44
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Markustay
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Posted - 11 Nov 2017 :  17:41:28  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

Kujawa was killed by "the celestial dragon T'ien Lung" (tGHotR), but a t'ien lung (also called a celestial dragon) is just a type of weather dragon. It's like a red dragon named Red Dragon. Either it's an ur-example of the breed, the westerners (or writers) got it wrong, the dragon's name is unknown, or it's one of the Nine Immortals in dragon form (which they do). In Ronin Challenge, the Immortal Nung Chiang (who opposed the development of Tempat Larang) appears as a t'ien lung. FRW editor Hashimashadoo interpreted that "T'ien Lung" was Nung Chiang (but this has Nung Chiang predate the other Immortals by quite a bit).
I think we/I had worked-out that there were the EIGHT Immortals from the Chinese pantheon when the CB first interloped, and then those added a 9th member, becoming the 'NINE Immortals' of Kara-Tur, That 'Newbie' was then tasked to find eight others to replace the eight interlopers (mortals of virtue to become the 'New immortals'). When this was completed (presumably the 'emperors' mentioned in the histories), these new immortals* became the NINE Travellers. One person is a member of both groups. I forget which we figured that had to be (we did all that to smooth-over the weirdness regarding these groups and the timeline). That person maybe was Nung Chiang. We know the original immortals have been around 'forever' (it said that they helped design the world in the Ronin Challenge lore). Thus, Nung Chiang only outdates the Travellers (who are ALSO 'immortals'), and not that first group, or which he became the ONLY Torillian member.

I think when it comes to all these people, they don't really ee all this themselves - they are all just 'immortals'. It is mortals and their religions that insist on categorizing everything. I even have a tiny bit of 'canon' (albeit core, but we are using the Chinese pantheon here) to back this up - in the 2e Legends & Lore tome, it talks about 'lesser immortals' (along with a bunch of other specifically named groups of 'immortals'), so there are lots and LOTS of immortals in K-T (and China), and the NINE immortals is just one, specific group (that used to be the EIGHT Immortals... and still is, on Earth). In this way, the specific usage of the word 'immortal' gets blurred in the histories (and we get to do some fudgery).

quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

Joon Tsao Choo was killed by an unnamed "spirit dragon" in Ronin Challenge, implied to be Nung Chiang (who is also said to appear as a spirit dragon in the book). A spirit dragon is another name for a shen lung. However, at this point, Awagi Nukichi should be considered to be highly dubious, if not full of crap.

Tan Chin, we know, was defeated by the Immortal Chih Shih. I don't know if he took a dragon form to do it, but he probably did, maybe as a shen lung.
I think this must be the case, and we should just decode right now thats the canon - Immortals can take the shape of celestial dragons - its says so in the canon (in regards to others). It really is Occam's Razor at its best.

quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

As for the empress, you're thinking of this from tGHotR: "–1377 DR: Using powerful Imaskari artifacts unearthed in the ruins of Thakos, the artificer Tan Chin assassinates the Sapphire Empress Kwan Ying and assumes the throne of Shou Lung. The new emperor renames Ten Mor Shou to Kuo Meilan, after his consort." That's in the Second Age of Shou Lung, and Kwan Ying became one of the Nine Immortals.
Okay, thats a little confusing as well. Tan chin seems to love pissing off the CB and he never seems to get n trouble for it (well... almost never). It DOES say in Ronin Chalenge that Immortals are forbidden t interfere in mortal affairs (and this is said by an immortal who got 'punished' for doing so, down in Tempat Larang). Thus, we do have some canon to that affect.

quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

The Three Ages of Shou-Lung helps explain how Ronin Challenge's history and Tan Chin's exploits can be attributed to "Shou Lung" without actually being Shou Lung and agreeing with the main history. Later Shou Lung historians have probably appropriated these as precursors to the current empire, giving their culture greater age and legitimacy, and allowing the empire to claim anything that was ever once ruled by a past empire (as China does now).
Yeah, this is where I keep screwing up. The last time we did all of this, there was no GHotR, and now I'm using the original K-T material to try and 'reinvent the wheel', when fixes were already applied. This makes things a bit more difficult in one aspect - we can't just go through the old stuff to 'build a story', we have to apply the 'filter' that is the GHotR.

Which I keep not doing.

On the other hand, that in-between era that got shoe-horned in is REALLY gonna help with my theoretical Ang-Mar empire (which is looking more like a confederation, considering it had so many different 'emperors'). Seems like anyone with an acre of land was calling themselves 'emperor' for awhile there.

Then again (and as a cartographer I should realize this) - some of those K-T 'provinces' are much bigger than some western (Faerūn) kingdoms. Tabot is one of the smallest, and its about the size of Cormyr.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 11 Nov 2017 17:42:43
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BadCatMan
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Posted - 12 Nov 2017 :  13:16:07  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To be fair, Sapphire Empress Kwan Ying was likely human and mortal at the time of her death. She probably ascended to become an Immortal afterward. The Nine Emperors/Travellers/Immortals seem to have been worked into Shou mythology, even in events predating their mortal lives such as the creation of the world. (Maybe, by being Immortal, their lives extended backwards in time too. Or the world was reshaped only shortly before the Second Age. Or, most simply, the mythology is just that.)

The distinction between Kara-Tur's recorded history and mythic history is clearest in the case of Chan Cheng, where his mortal life, ascension, and mythic Immortal life are all known. He's specifically the first of the Nine Immortals, which doesn't support the theory of Nung Chiang killing Emperor Kujawa, unless he really was a long-lived dragon, living before but ascending later. But that's purely hypothetical, and I need to do undo the interpretation on the wiki. EDIT: I kept the identification of Nung Chiang = T'ien Lung for presumed authorial intent.

Anyway, this has all been wholly off-topic to the Utter East. I've finished wikifying the Tartyron Unbound campaign, fully detailing the Realms of Fire, Lands, and Tides, with more pics all around. Given how disturbed the earth is in the Realm of Lands—lots of plateaus, crags, rifts, the Mines of Mystery—I still believe the Lord of Lands is an earth elementalist. BTW, having giant fanged skulls marking the entrances to the mines and some kind of dragon for your castle does not help your image as a good guy.


BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
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Edited by - BadCatMan on 12 Nov 2017 14:21:21
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sleyvas
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Posted - 12 Nov 2017 :  17:12:12  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan


Anyway, this has all been wholly off-topic to the Utter East. I've finished wikifying the Tartyron Unbound campaign, fully detailing the Realms of Fire, Lands, and Tides, with more pics all around. Given how disturbed the earth is in the Realm of Lands—lots of plateaus, crags, rifts, the Mines of Mystery—I still believe the Lord of Lands is an earth elementalist. BTW, having giant fanged skulls marking the entrances to the mines and some kind of dragon for your castle does not help your image as a good guy.




Thanks BadCatMan. Yeah, the lord of lands would definitely seem to be some kind of relation to "earth". I'd also throw evil into it, and I'd link it to the Geomancers that were in Nog and Kadar that worshipped Grumbar (but were not neutral). Whether the two groups were around at the same time, one migrated, etc... not sure.

I'd also throw in those corsairs that worship Istishia as having some ties to the Lord of Tides, and make them evil too. Especially if they had undersea tombs that served as prisons for humans. Given that they're all using bloodforges, maybe all of these lords are evil.

I still like the idea that Tartyron himself isn't air, but rather is metal for his "elemental linkage". I also like the idea that he tried to link himself to "negative elemental energy", and that's what got him imprisoned.

I also like that there would be a Lord of Wood, and maybe he's in those jungles nearby (the Sempadan), and he just doesn't help the other lords.... because maybe he actually thinks they've all be corrupted by the bloodforges and hopes they'll all kill each other (just an idea).... or maybe he's a follower of Moander (or something similar) and nutbars and turned away from the circle of order as well.

Hey, do we have anything approaching a map/picture showing the layout in game of the 3 different realms? I think I saw something that showed the land of fire might be at the top, such that maybe Ulgarth and the utter east is separated by volcanos.


Hmmm, almost makes me wonder too if the "gate of iron" in Durpar weren't constructed with the aid of Tartyron.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

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Markustay
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Posted - 12 Nov 2017 :  18:19:32  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, I think we figured out the 'Realm of Fire' was up near 'the top' - probably the border area between the uE and Ulgarth (on my original uE map, I stuck some volcanos in there). If you look at that map (its here in CK's Map Room) you can see where I put it - an arm of the mountains extending between the Stoney Waste and Serpent Valley (a swamp where I believe the vampire-looking dude came from).

There is no map laying out the Realms in the game, which I suppose is both good and bad (because if they did something stupid - or contradictory - it would be really hard to fix it). EDIT: I stand corrected, there was a smooshed (BAD) map included in the game.

I have also assumed there was 'Fifth' Kingdom (since the Utter East IS referred to as the 'Five Kingdoms') in the ast, that wasn't involved in the Bloodforge War (or just never got a mention - we can spin it either way), but because of the Vedic spin we are putting on things now (rather than a Chinese/Japanese spin, which would be Metal/wood), I'm going with 'Void' (or Aether), because reasons.

Maybe it wasn't involved in the BF Wars because they couldn't find it (Void, get it?)

I planned to put The Realm of Water down around Konigheim, and then have a 'no-mans land' between it and Doegan where another kingdom once existed, but only because of the Northmen association with water. However, I'm rethinking that, because Doegan, I believe, was the one with the really odd looking people (so it had more of a lovecraftian, "Shadow Over Innsmouth" vibe to it). Although some Konigheimers had a '3rd eye' in their foreheads, we decided (way back) to attribute that to the Mar influences in the region (that kingdom has a very strange blend of Indian and Norse cultures). Ascetics following a certain path (PrC in 3e lingo) could 'awaken' their 3rd eye and have it become real (it was just a tattoo the priesthood sported before that). This, BTW is where we think Savras originated (he was born a Mar, and traveled to Halruaa to learn 'greater mysteries of the art'). His period of capture by Azuth is probably when the Northemn and Ffolk first started their devastation of the Five Kingdoms (thus, he was unable to act).

Maybe Koenigheim was the Realm of Lands (the southern half of it, anyway) because I picture that being pretty rocky and barren. then the belt of unsettled land between Konigheim and Doegan (still technically part of Konigheim, but only because no one bothers to challenge their claim to it) could be 'Void' (Aether). The only problem with that is that makes the RoF and the RoL at opposite ends of the uE, making the lore in the B&M VG a bit odd.

I'll try to throw something together real quick, for reference, and then we can tweak it.

EDIT:
Aaaaaaaaaand... GIMP crashed.
But I tricked it... I saved just before it happened! I had to add the layer masks (out of vanity - I just couldn't have the coasts looking THAT messy), and I found a problem that would have bitten me in the rump later on, so its good I decided to do this (I had a small section of coast on the wrong layer - it was driving me nuts trying to find why a certain tool wasn't working properly). I also added in all the 'Realm' names (current). I was just tidying up a river valley when it crashed. The very next things was going to be to add the theoretical 'Realms of Order' (what a gawd-awful name) in shaded areas. Almost got there, too.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 13 Nov 2017 02:01:08
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Markustay
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Posted - 12 Nov 2017 :  21:49:42  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Utter East Map with theoretical layout of the Realms of Order.

I like how they worked-out 'neatly stacked', because it plays into the whole 'orderly' thing.

That (large black) text won't be on the finished map - its just for the purpose of this thread. Those realms are LONG gone now (around a millennia). The whole thing is a very long way off from being done - I've only gotten a few of the more important rivers redone. Just about everything has to be 'drawn over' from my blown-up continental map, so thats why I have this weird double-exposure thing going on in a lot of places.

Also, the Beowood is going to moved much further east, just NE of where it says 'Yakiria', where all the rivers come together. It will be a mountain forest, and that will be the new Herne's Wood. At one point it would have been connected to the sempadan forests (back during the time of the Bloodforge Wars), but thats no longer the case (plus its a very different type of forest - the eastern Sempadan is jungle, and the western half is deciduous forest, and then on up into the mountains (Herne's Wood) it turns into Coniferous (Evergreen) Forest.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 12 Nov 2017 21:59:03
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BadCatMan
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Posted - 13 Nov 2017 :  01:33:36  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I still like the idea that Tartyron himself isn't air, but rather is metal for his "elemental linkage". I also like the idea that he tried to link himself to "negative elemental energy", and that's what got him imprisoned.


Tartyron could've switched his elemental focus: taken away from the air and bound underground, amidst fire and earth, he was forced to encase himself in metal armour (to stop the air leaking out?) and devote himself to elemental metal or something instead. Whatever the Circle of Order's deal, there's a shocking level of cruelty in his punishment for vague "chaotic schemes".

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Hey, do we have anything approaching a map/picture showing the layout in game of the 3 different realms? I think I saw something that showed the land of fire might be at the top, such that maybe Ulgarth and the utter east is separated by volcanos.


There is indeed a map in the game; I've included it on each of the pages of the wiki for each area of the game. It compresses the canon maps of the Utter East substantially in the north–south direction, so it takes some examining to compare the game locations with other maps of the Utter East. (What I couldn't include where the highlighted borders between these places, but they mostly follow geography.)
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/File:Blood_%26_Magic_game_map.jpg

Ten years ago, I took a canon map, the B&M game map, and the novel map, compared the locations, and combined them on a proper map. So, it may be crude, but this is the only canonical combined map of the various versions of the Utter East, plus Ulgarth. One discrepancy is that the novels moved Edenvale from beside Herne's Wood/the Sempadan Forest to much further north. (Maybe the whole kingdom had to relocate from the Jungle of Monsters? Or there's two Edenvales?)
https://badcatman.deviantart.com/art/Combined-Utter-East-map-714820695

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
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Markustay
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Posted - 13 Nov 2017 :  01:55:52  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Which is pretty close to my new map (I may have made my original off of yours). The only major thing I did was shunt the Serpent Valley north, so it became 'its own thing', rather than taking up the better part of Edenvale. You'll also note that the game had Edenvale in totally the wrong spot, compared to the Faces of Deception map (which you can view in the Map Room here at the 'Keep).

Just had GIMP crash on me again. This time I lost some work. I really need to start doing this stuff on my new computer (which sits in another room, unused, because I gave up on getting the graphics card working).

EDIT:
I note the game places the Realm of Lands near the top (North), while I have it in the middle. Just swap Lands and Water on my map and its all good. I like that better anyway - having fire next to water felt wrong to me.

EDIT2:
So here I am thinking that the 'Lords of Order' are really nothing more than a bunch of ruthless tyrants. They use 'Order' as an excuse to crush any sort of concept of 'free expression'. This amoral take fits the Mar (and Vedic) pantheon perfectly, since they live in Nirvana, which has become Mechanus - the plane of 'Lawful neutral' (so the letter of the law takes precedence over the spirit of the law).

And we KNEW all that. The thing that just occurred to me - now that I am seeing them as tyrants - is that Bane would have fit right in. And then my next thought was, maybe he did. What if Tartyron is Bane's real name?

Duh duh duh!!!


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 13 Nov 2017 02:14:55
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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 13 Nov 2017 :  03:06:52  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-I just bought Faces of Deception. The first Forgotten Realms thing I've purchased in like almost ten years. Last book I read was the first Nendawen book, thinking there'd be a lot about the Eastern Lythari in there, but I rented that at the library. The last thing I actually bought, I don't even remember. A very weird feeling, getting back into all this stuff (kinda).

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

EDIT2:
So here I am thinking that the 'Lords of Order' are really nothing more than a bunch of ruthless tyrants. They use 'Order' as an excuse to crush any sort of concept of 'free expression'. This amoral take fits the Mar (and Vedic) pantheon perfectly, since they live in Nirvana, which has become Mechanus - the plane of 'Lawful neutral' (so the letter of the law takes precedence over the spirit of the law).

-Could the Lords of Order be somehow tied to Mechanus? From there maybe, or perhaps empowered via "pacts" with powerful entities there. They are mentioned as being more than just human, at the very least. Looking at the wikipedia article on Mechanus, a few possibly relevant parties do indeed maintain realms there, establishing at least a tenuous connection between it and the UE:
The Celestial Bureaucracy's Celestial Palace
Yama's Yamasadena

-Hmm...Apparently the Inevitables of Mechanus are produced in "Creche Forges". If the Lords of Order had some kind of connection to Mechanus, could the Bloodforges been based on these?

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Edited by - Lord Karsus on 13 Nov 2017 03:20:00
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Markustay
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Posted - 13 Nov 2017 :  04:16:25  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmmmm... Bloodforged (Basal) Golems being a type of 'Prime modron' - interesting take.

Yeah, Yama is definitely around (doing Yama stuff). We had established some sort of 'pantheon' for the Utter East the last time we did this, but I'd have to go back through that old thread because the only guy I remember was Tvashtri.

Back when we did that, I also had a cult to Kali in Venesci - a 'thuggee' thing with downtrodden Mar striking back at their Konigheim oppressors. Now that I've considered connecting Lloth to Kali in some of my other musings, I'm thinking that perhaps our (FR) Kali is really just Lloth masquerading as her (Red eyes, eight limbs, 'getting even for being wronged as a people' - they do indeed have similar vibes. Khali even has blue skin, and drow are sometimes drawn with very dark blue skin). I'm thinking they found an old temple of Lolth, with a depiction of her 'rearing back' to strike, and they interpreted that as her having two human arms and four spider-like arms coming out of her back - assume is some form of weird 'heresy'. There may have even been some base-reliefs of a 'oppressed people' being waged war upon (the Crown Wars) and driven 'underground', all of which got misinterpreted as an 'underground cult' dedicated to vengeance. Lolth doesn't mind expanding her horizons - the uE is just the kind of crazy place she'd feel at home (and I did place some Drow nearby, but post-3e they migrated from the Treggi Forest to Herne's Wood, because of an alliance between the loxo of Sragdhala and the yakmen drove them from the Treggi Jungle (all homebrew, of course - some stuff had to happen since the last time we worked on this region). Normally the peaceful loxo have nothing to do with the evil yakmen, but they had a mutual enemy in this case (the Dark Elves were raiding a lot of caravans and smaller settlements).

EDIT:
So, no feedback on the map? I just had GIMP crash again, so I'm done for the day. I knew I should have saved, but I wanted to 'get just one more thing done'. Dammit... oh well.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 13 Nov 2017 04:19:46
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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 13 Nov 2017 :  05:00:21  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-You can kind of indirectly tie in Lolth and Kali, by way of Shar. I don't have my Forgotten Realms books around, but given that Kali and Shar have a lot of overlap, it's possible that Shar IS Kali, or masquerades as her, or killed her and took her stuff (lol, haven't written that in a while), or some other deal. Going on that assumption, that Shar is somehow Kali, there was that cult that worshiped Shar and Lolth as the same individual. I'm going all by vague memory here, I don't even remember where that cult was (I think they were all wiped out by a joint venture between Lolth and Shar).

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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BadCatMan
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Australia
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Posted - 13 Nov 2017 :  05:32:14  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Padhran religion also has an ascent to Nirvana. I'm not too sure I want to confirm it as the Clockwork Nirvana of Mechanus yet, however.

It sounds like GIMP is well-named.

On your map, hmm, I'd still see the Realm of Tides (or Realm of Water, as put it) actually on the water, out to sea. It's based on a collection of islands. In the past, I've liked Far Nermoree, the little speck in the Great Sea, but it seems too far away really dominate sea trade as the Realm of Tides did. On the other hand, if the Realm of Tides really are floating islands, then perhaps they're steerable too?

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