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Fellfire
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1950 Posts

Posted - 28 Aug 2016 :  10:13:54  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
In 2-3P longbow damage is d8 vs medium sized creatures while the javelin only deals d6. I'm certain the range and rate of fire should be greater with the longbow, but I would think that the javelin would, at least, deal the same dmg. Thoughts?

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Edited by - Fellfire on 28 Aug 2016 10:15:46

Artemas Entreri
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Posted - 28 Aug 2016 :  13:06:45  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Like you said, the longbow fires its projectile at a much faster velocity than anyone can throw a javelin ... making up for the d8 vs d6 damage.

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Fellfire
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1950 Posts

Posted - 28 Aug 2016 :  13:49:27  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I suppose you would get a STR bonus with the javelin as a thrown weapon, still it puts a much bigger hole in you than an arrow.

Misanthorpe

Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

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Artemas Entreri
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Posted - 28 Aug 2016 :  14:48:43  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You could get the same strength bonus from using a bow.

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Irennan
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Italy
2983 Posts

Posted - 28 Aug 2016 :  14:51:10  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Javelins tend to be havier than arrows, tho. If the dice difference bothers you, I'd say to just change the javelin to d8. It's just +1 dmg on average, it won't break anything.

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Artemas Entreri
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Posted - 28 Aug 2016 :  16:23:34  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

If the dice difference bothers you, I'd say to just change the javelin to d8. It's just +1 dmg on average, it won't break anything.



Absolutely. The rules are not set in stone and can be manipulated to a certain degree. I like to think of them more as a general guideline.

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TBeholder
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1725 Posts

Posted - 28 Aug 2016 :  17:03:19  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire

In 2-3P longbow damage is d8 vs medium sized creatures while the javelin only deals d6. I'm certain the range and rate of fire should be greater with the longbow, but I would think that the javelin would, at least, deal the same dmg. Thoughts?

If it's any solace, in AD&D2 bow has speed factor 8 vs javelin's 4, and with battle arrows that do 1d8/1d8 a bow has reduced range, while with flight arrows it's the same 1d6/1d6.
PO also applies bonus from charge to thrown weapons: the attacker may charge into 10-20' of the target for +2 to attack.

Or use throwing spear - 1d6/1d8, at the cost of range. But if a spear-caster is available (Maztica), it does 2x damage at short and medium range (which are doubled).

The main trade-off, of course, is that primitive thrown weapons require only one generic skill to make (weaponsmith), while bows require the same (for the arrowheads) plus a single-purpose skill (even after conflation into bowyer/fletcher), and javelins are dirt-cheap compared to any bow.

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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 29 Aug 2016 :  03:21:32  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
in 2nd edition, there were very complex systems that you COULD use if you wanted that dealt with damage for missile weapons that calculated variable damages based on various factors (range, target size, wound type, etc). I never saw them actually used however - too complicated and time consuming.
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Ayrik
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Canada
6683 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2016 :  03:40:30  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
D&D is a game, of course, not a combat simulator. Damage allocations (along with the entirely vague notion of hit points) are highly arbitrary. I think that longswords and longbows get a lot of special love in D&D simply because they are iconic (and very elfy) hero weapons. A javelin does 1d6, comparable to a shortsword, not entirely unreasonable.

Thrown javelins might put a bigger hole in you but arrows tend to travel much faster and, I think, could penetrate deeper into flesh.

[/Ayrik]
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 29 Aug 2016 :  04:21:25  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'll take a Longbow over a Javelin any day. Neither BattleMech is all that nice to look at, though the Project Phoenix Longbow is pretty cool. Plus, 85 tons and all those LRMs (2 15s and 2 20s!), as opposed to 30 tons and a pair of SRM6s? No contest.

We were talking about BattleTech, right?

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Madpig
Learned Scribe

Finland
133 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2016 :  08:48:29  Show Profile Send Madpig a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire

In 2-3P longbow damage is d8 vs medium sized creatures while the javelin only deals d6. I'm certain the range and rate of fire should be greater with the longbow, but I would think that the javelin would, at least, deal the same dmg. Thoughts?



Regarding the range that nobody commented yet, you must remember one thing: Bow is mass weapon. I mean olympic archers shoot at 50m max, and they are best specialists around with much better bows than any compositebow there might be in FR. Yes, English longbow had max range of 250m, but it depended on 100+ men to shoot at once. I am fair shot with traditional longbow,and I can shoot groups of 1m at 15m. And thats when im relaxed. So, factor in that someone is trying to shoot you with spells or arrows...
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Icelander
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1577 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2018 :  21:10:27  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Arrows from warbows achieve three to four times the velocity of javelins. Javelins used in war, in turn, are about twenty times the weight of typical arrow and at least five times the weight of the heaviest arrow, at 1.25-3 lbs. for typical javelins and 0.06-0.25 lbs. for arrows. There are lighter darts than that thrown in the same manner as javelins, but I wouldn't call those the same weapon and wouldn't use the same stats, any more than I would use the same stats for light flight arrows and heavy war arrows.

That means two things. First, the kinetic energy of war arrows is generally lower than that of war javelins, but very high draw weight bows can shoot war arrows at enough velocity to exceed the kinetic energy of typical javelins. Second, unless we are assuming a much stronger archer than javelineer, the heavier projectile will always handily beat the arrow in terms of momentum, because we run into diminishing returns trying to push the velocity above certain limits.

Now, what some people don't realise is that kinetic energy is not as important for the wounding equations of low energy penetrators as it is for higher energy impacts. Momentum is usually much more predictive of how deep a sharp penetrator moving at 400 fps or less will penetrate through typical historical armour, flesh, bone and organs.

Translation, war javelins do at least the same damage as war arrows from any kind of bow, and probably ought to be better at wounding.

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Edited by - Icelander on 29 Jul 2018 21:21:24
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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 30 Jul 2018 :  01:35:15  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Some other things to bear in mind. From horseback, a javelin can be pulled and hurled with one hand while the other hand holds the stirrup and/or protects with a shield. Also, while its not reflected in the rules very well, the momentum of the charging horse would be applied to any javelin hurled from horseback. Also, javelins are reusable, versus bows for which you have to provide the arrows. Now, I know there's magical ways to get around this and carry hundreds of arrows, and arrows are made to be cheap as well in the game, but I tend to think that has more to do with gamers truly not wanting to keep track of arrow usage. In the end, each has reasons for their use in the real world, but this isn't reflected well in the game, much as how the effectiveness of spears and pikes versus swords isn't well reflected (though 3.5e was getting close to it with attacks of opportunity on people closing on someone with a reach weapon, etc..).

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Hoondatha
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Posted - 30 Jul 2018 :  02:27:58  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I'll take a Longbow over a Javelin any day. Neither BattleMech is all that nice to look at, though the Project Phoenix Longbow is pretty cool. Plus, 85 tons and all those LRMs (2 15s and 2 20s!), as opposed to 30 tons and a pair of SRM6s? No contest.

We were talking about BattleTech, right?



I knew without even looking that it had to be Wooly making this comment.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 30 Jul 2018 :  03:06:40  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I'll take a Longbow over a Javelin any day. Neither BattleMech is all that nice to look at, though the Project Phoenix Longbow is pretty cool. Plus, 85 tons and all those LRMs (2 15s and 2 20s!), as opposed to 30 tons and a pair of SRM6s? No contest.

We were talking about BattleTech, right?



I knew without even looking that it had to be Wooly making this comment.



I did not remember this discussion... So I came in intending to make that same joke I made 2 years ago!

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sfdragon
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Posted - 30 Jul 2018 :  04:54:54  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For House Steiner and the Lyran Commonwealth ....

too many missiles there for my taste General Wooly...... now lance it up with a Zues..... or Battlemaster( which imo is better looking) and 2 others... I might be convinced....

( just not that %@#%@#%@#%@#^ @#%^@%@%!@% &$&$#^!$!$#^$& Riffleman)

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Edited by - sfdragon on 30 Jul 2018 05:05:49
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Ayrik
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Canada
6683 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2018 :  09:27:13  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
(Good old Panther, Thunderbolt-S, and Victor were always my favourite mechs in a fight. But the Black Knight always wins my vote for style.)

Back to Javelins ... D&D seems to neglect the fact that while javelins are shorter than a full spear (two-handed, 8'-12' long, pretty much the same thing as an awl/pike polearm), they're still basically a 6'-8' long throwing weapon, more or less the biggest spear you could realistically throw with any accuracy. And javelin throwing has been a traditional sport since ancient times ...

I'd suggest that javelins - like longbow arrows - also come in 1d6 ("flight") and 1d8 ("killing") varieties.

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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 30 Jul 2018 :  09:34:29  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I loved my thunderbolt with expanded heat sinks and 13 small lasers. I would charge up to the closest heavy much and unload every laser and keep doing it until i shutdown from the heat or he died. It was a surprisingly effective tactic, I once took out an atlas (with a bit of help).

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Diffan
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Posted - 30 Jul 2018 :  10:01:49  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Increase the javelin and short Spears damage by one die when thrown within 10 feet of a Target

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Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe

195 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2018 :  15:00:41  Show Profile Send Thraskir Skimper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Prefer the Hellspawn Medium Mech with MDM 40 pack and a pair of Medium Pulse Lasers. Jump Jets and Blazer Armour. Triple Strength Myomers. ECM etc... 225 standard engine. 5-8-5/6-9.

Thay Red

Edited by - Thraskir Skimper on 30 Jul 2018 23:36:49
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 30 Jul 2018 :  15:03:49  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There's a lot of mechs I like better than the Longbow... But I was kinda-sorta staying on topic, here, with comparing the Longbow and the Javelin.

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sfdragon
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Posted - 30 Jul 2018 :  23:10:47  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I hear ya... my favorite is the omnimech mad cat( timberwolf)....

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


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Thraskir Skimper
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Posted - 30 Jul 2018 :  23:38:51  Show Profile Send Thraskir Skimper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I suppose it could be called a Tiefling.

Thay Red
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Icelander
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1577 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2018 :  00:26:10  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If'n y'all gonna be like that...

You can shoot down an AH-64D Apache Longbow with a FGM-148 Javelin, but considering the range and velocity difference between the Javelin and am AGM-114 Hellfire, not to mention what a 30mm round or two from the M230 chain gun will do to you within much of the performance envelope of the Javelin, I sure as shootin' wouldn't volunteer for that there job.

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Edited by - Icelander on 31 Jul 2018 02:48:43
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 31 Jul 2018 :  02:39:02  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

If'n y'all gonna be like that...

You can shoot down an AH-64D Apache Longbow with a FGM-148 Javelin, but considering the range and velocity difference between the Javelin and am AGM-114 Hellfire, not to mention what a 20mm round or two from the M230 chain gun will do to you within much of the performance envelope of the Javelin, I sure as shootin' wouldn't volunteer for that there job.



Nicely done.

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TBeholder
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Posted - 31 Jul 2018 :  10:03:10  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire

In 2-3P longbow damage is d8 vs medium sized creatures while the javelin only deals d6. I'm certain the range and rate of fire should be greater with the longbow, but I would think that the javelin would, at least, deal the same dmg. Thoughts?

It's a broad-headed arrow.
If you want javelin to be more of a decent weapon, use PO:C&T, where it allows charge-throw and as Medium weapon tend to roll greater Severity for critical hits.

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And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
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