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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 23:33:05
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Yeah, the more I think about the handful of things I've thrown together from sources so far, the more I'm intrigued with the section of time between -359 (when the dark 3 kill Borem and begin their ascendance) and -339 DR (when Karsus cast his spell).
Why you ask? Well, its no secret to anyone that I'm intrigued with the rise of Mellifleur as a deity. I like the idea that Mellifleur was a Narfellian. This would fit in the time frame that we have here, especially if Mellifleur's rise was actually timed to coincide with Bane's ascension. Jergal was definitely the instrument that guided the dark three to his throne (after all, he made the Jathiman dagger). Then, his first "game" involves the destruction of his 3 most powerful liches...... perhaps to mystically fuel the creation of Mellifleur, god of liches, when he causes Bane and then Myrkul to ascend?
However, the more I read, the more I'm intrigued. These next bits can be thrown away or contemplated. Jergal was the Lord of the End of Everything. Lathander is the god of births and beginnings, and he showed up when Amaunator ended (supposedly). Was Jergal's transferral of power some kind of instrument in the creation of Lathander and reduction of Amaunator?
Next, he allows his portfolios to be handed out based on luck (knucklebones).... luck which may have been being subverted at this time as well if the dawn cataclysm occurred around this same time (i.e. Moander splitting tyche into Tymora and Beshaba).
Finally, and this is really stretching it.... if we accept that perhaps... it was Amaunator who was involved in the Dawn Cataclysm, but when it ended he was Lathander (maybe splitting Tyche used a lot of deific power). It would then be very ironic that we are facing a similar god of justice (Amaunator v/s Tyr) having an interaction with a similiar goddess of luck (Tyche v/s Tymora). Also, this time around, a sun god (Lathander) is required to intervene to stop the corrupting influence.
These last bits are only held together by string, but it wouldn't be absurd to believe that perhaps Jergal was using the dark 3 as a way to keep himself alive because some cosmic twist was in the making.... and the Lord of the End of Everything saw his own end coming? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2007 : 07:17:23
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
it was Amaunator who was involved in the Dawn Cataclysm, but when it ended he was Lathander (maybe splitting Tyche used a lot of deific power).
Problem: Though Tyche's split happened during the Dawn Cataclysm, I don't know of anything that says it was a result of the DC. Lathander was only indirectly part of her split, anyway: he irked her, she stormed out, and then she stuck a flower in her ear, thinking it was from him. Selūne was the one that zapped her.
It's actually one very odd point about the Dawn Cataclysm (other than WotC's refusal to give a date for it): we really don't know what it did. We know Murdane died, we know it presaged the fall of Myth Drannor, we know Tyche split, and we know it was a big commotion. We don't know anything beyond that. Did anyone else die? Why was it such a big commotion? Why did it fail? Who took what side? Who just watched? What did Ao do? Why did Lathy do it that way? What led up to it? What did the other pantheons do? What happened in the mortal world, other than Myth Drannor's fall and the splitting of Tyche's church? Were any mortals involved? What effect was felt on the planes? |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 07 Oct 2007 07:25:08 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2007 : 12:12:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[quote]Originally posted by sleyvas
Selūne was the one that zapped her.
Ah, then nevermind. I still like the idea that somehow the Lord of the End of Everything was involved with the making of the Lord of Beginnings.. and thereby the reduction of Amaunator to Lathander. How, I have no idea, yet.... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2007 : 12:19:31
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| Ok, I'm up to the 1100's now. Boy, something just hit me like a ton of bricks. Orcs adepts using circle magic under the direction of an archmage who has been around for at least 1400 years (though he was gone for a while). Any other information on this Hlundadim person to be found anywhere, other than he was either Netherese or possibly from another plane? Personally, I like the idea that he was a leave over from the orcgate wars, since he likes to use humanoids so much. Perhaps he poses in human form to confuse people? Perhaps he's a half-orc who looks more human than orcish? I see where these orcs also attacked Corymyr under the leadership of a shaman after Hlundadim disappeared. Any info on this (was it in Cormyr: a Novel). Oh, and guess the dwarvish name for cooperative magic is ularim? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2007 : 13:40:09
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| Damn, found my first thing I don't like (just because it interferes with some theories, and its too uncreative). 1157, The Vampire Nyressa Flass was the Zulkir of Necromancy just prior to Szass Tam. Oh well, there goes the whole Tam family having held the Zulkirship (I had such hopes for you Shevas). It would have been so much more interesting for a vampire zulkir to NOT have been a necromancer. After all, vampires could turn any kind of mage. Oh well, at least its put to paper, so there can be no question. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2007 : 05:40:28
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| Did we actually have any information about the first appearance of Lathander in the realms? It seems to me that his relation to Amaunator was always unclear, and not knowing when he actually was first worshipped in Faerun (already when Amaunator was still in charge or not before his fall?) is part of this uncertainty. Else the church of Lathander would have had less problems to deal with the Sunlords and the events of the Rise of Amaunator storyline. |
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Varl
FR/D&D-Links 2ed Downloads |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2007 : 12:27:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Problem: Though Tyche's split happened during the Dawn Cataclysm, I don't know of anything that says it was a result of the DC. Lathander was only indirectly part of her split, anyway: he irked her, she stormed out, and then she stuck a flower in her ear, thinking it was from him. Selūne was the one that zapped her.
Wasn't that flower an avatar of Moander? How did Selūne "zap" her?  |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2007 : 15:43:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Problem: Though Tyche's split happened during the Dawn Cataclysm, I don't know of anything that says it was a result of the DC. Lathander was only indirectly part of her split, anyway: he irked her, she stormed out, and then she stuck a flower in her ear, thinking it was from him. Selūne was the one that zapped her.
Wasn't that flower an avatar of Moander? How did Selūne "zap" her?
It was and uh, she just did. Dunno, it's never really been fully detailed on how Selune did that. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2007 : 02:50:27
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| Glad you liked the kobold/urd story. I enjoyed working it up. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2007 : 05:37:36
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I too thoroughly enjoyed all of the Shou references and tie-ins in the GHotR - perhaps some of my favorite bits. 
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'm not a big Shou fan, but I did find these entries about Giants in Grey and the impossible silver dome that come and go interesting. Not sure what they pertain to though. For some reason, it brings to mind spelljammer, but I don't know why.
The Giants in Grey sound similar to Earthsea Giants from the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, which in turn became the Spacesea Giants in Spelljammer.
So yeah, I felt that the Giants in Grey had some sort of 'sky-fortress' somewhere and were watching over the people of Kara-Tu for whatever reason (Think The Watcher from Marvel Comics fame). They do not get involved - merely show up and record important events.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2007 : 19:22:51
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| is there any new mentions of Ammarindar in the GHotR? ... trying to fiddle all the infomations i have about the area down in an article-wannabe :p |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2007 : 15:54:52
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| I know there were some mentions of Ammarindar. Whether they were new or not, I'm unsure. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2007 : 04:23:44
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Ok, I'm still working my way through it, but I wanted to see what some have seen so far and compare notes. Some of this may have been released in previous products, and if so maybe noting that will help us all lead somewhere. As always, the name of the game is speculation.
Firstly, I liked George's article on the fall of Narfell/Raumathar. From it, we learn a few things and have some definitions to correlate to future things.
Why thank you.
quote:
First, in -160 DR a "hortha" of Kostchtchie was summoned to the realms. From this, I gather that a "hortha" is something less than an avatar... because in -150 DR an "urhortha" or avatar of Kossuth was summoned.
Other definitions
Sarnar - year (plural years is Sarn)
Drith - summoned extraplanars (presumably demons)
Drithdarkar - presumably Narfellian conjurers of some sort (demonbinders most likely)
Dun-Orthass - another name for the citadel of conjurers
Yep, spot on pretty much. As another poster down the track noted, "hortha" was my term for an aspect while "urhortha" was for an avatar.
Can't see that anyone has picked up on a few of the 'easter eggs' I scattered through the piece.
quote:
From other areas, we discover that the demonic magic of the Nars was from Narathmault, which was formerly a holding of the Ilythiir (see -1015 dr, -9750 DR, -10000 DR and -10400 DR). It was Clan Sethomiir who traversed there, guided by the balor Wendonai. Narathmault is an underground fortress "Dark Pit" and its at the site of Dun-Tharos (which is where the nentyarch built his capital and forged the crown of Narfell). Note, that even before the dark elves arrived there, they recognized the area as an "area of great evil". Therefore, theoretically, something happened to the area before the Narfellians came along (and therefore, THEY didn't necessarily create the demoncysts).
"Place of great evil" was lorespeak for an evil node as showcased in Champions of Ruin. There's one at the site of the Citadel of Conjurers also. Well, at least in my Realms there is.
quote:
Another thing I find of interest, Larloch's enclave, Jiksidur, crashed in northern Narfell when Karsus cast his avatar spell. However, his warlock's crypt is actually his enemy's enclave of Orbedal. Therefore, before Narfell fell, there was a crashed netherese enclave within their domain (granted, this was in the last 190 years of their empire, but....). Also, conceivably, Larloch had some involvement with Narfell, otherwise his enclave wouldn't have been there?
Yes, very interesting that ... isn't it ...?
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2007 : 04:28:03
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Ok, I'm up to the 1100's now. Boy, something just hit me like a ton of bricks. Orcs adepts using circle magic under the direction of an archmage who has been around for at least 1400 years (though he was gone for a while). Any other information on this Hlundadim person to be found anywhere, other than he was either Netherese or possibly from another plane? Personally, I like the idea that he was a leave over from the orcgate wars, since he likes to use humanoids so much. Perhaps he poses in human form to confuse people? Perhaps he's a half-orc who looks more human than orcish? I see where these orcs also attacked Corymyr under the leadership of a shaman after Hlundadim disappeared. Any info on this (was it in Cormyr: a Novel). Oh, and guess the dwarvish name for cooperative magic is ularim?
Orcish circle magic and ūlarim (the dwarf in question is using the orc term - the dwarves of days gone by were very familiar with this type of magic) were first mentioned in the "Elminster's Ecologies" boxed set - specifically the Stonelands and Goblin Marches booklet. Nothing else yet on Hlundadim. I'll get to it one day.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2007 : 04:29:51
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Damn, found my first thing I don't like (just because it interferes with some theories, and its too uncreative). 1157, The Vampire Nyressa Flass was the Zulkir of Necromancy just prior to Szass Tam. Oh well, there goes the whole Tam family having held the Zulkirship (I had such hopes for you Shevas). It would have been so much more interesting for a vampire zulkir to NOT have been a necromancer. After all, vampires could turn any kind of mage. Oh well, at least its put to paper, so there can be no question.
What's not to like? That reference has been around for 12 years. "Spellbound" boxed set - Campaign Guide, p.8. Would have thought you would have seen that one years ago, Sleyvas.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2007 : 06:01:51
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| George, you're alive! I'm glad to see you posting again. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
Edited by - Brian R. James on 27 Oct 2007 06:02:34 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2007 : 12:33:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
George, you're alive! I'm glad to see you posting again.
Well, new house as soon as I arrived back home after GEN-CON. We had a baby boy last Friday. You know, life gets on top of you sometimes.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2007 : 14:14:37
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
George, you're alive! I'm glad to see you posting again.
Well, new house as soon as I arrived back home after GEN-CON. We had a baby boy last Friday. You know, life gets on top of you sometimes.
-- George Krashos
Well, let me just jump in here with a congratulation then . |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2007 : 14:22:55
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
George, you're alive! I'm glad to see you posting again.
Well, new house as soon as I arrived back home after GEN-CON. We had a baby boy last Friday. You know, life gets on top of you sometimes.
-- George Krashos
Hey, congratulations on both!  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2007 : 14:24:31
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Can't see that anyone has picked up on a few of the 'easter eggs' I scattered through the piece.
I'm sure we noticed them, but there's just so much in there, that they might not have stood out as much.
But if you were to aim us in the direction of a couple of these Easter eggs, so we know what we're looking for... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2007 : 15:30:22
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
George, you're alive! I'm glad to see you posting again.
Well, new house as soon as I arrived back home after GEN-CON. We had a baby boy last Friday. You know, life gets on top of you sometimes.
-- George Krashos
Congratulations, George! I just hope you boy will not take after his dad ... you know, beardlessness and all... alright, just kidding!  |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2007 : 16:57:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Can't see that anyone has picked up on a few of the 'easter eggs' I scattered through the piece.
I'm sure we noticed them, but there's just so much in there, that they might not have stood out as much.
But if you were to aim us in the direction of a couple of these Easter eggs, so we know what we're looking for...
The Raumathari war leader who led the construct invasion of Narfell.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2007 : 17:40:36
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Could it be a reference to the Thulkarr [Maug-constructs] that were created by the Maug prisoners who were transported to Thuldanin?
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - The Sage on 27 Oct 2007 17:43:16 |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2007 : 20:42:18
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Well, new house as soon as I arrived back home after GEN-CON. We had a baby boy last Friday. You know, life gets on top of you sometimes.
Congratulations George! |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2007 : 21:20:46
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is there a more detailed version of the northwesten potion of the map at page 44-45 ... more specificly a map of Ammarindars's borders ... as far as i can see on the map it should goall the way up to the coast of the narrow see ... can that be true? ... i never read anything about Ammarindar expanding out of greypeaks ...
Futhermore ... i read though and it aren't mentioned which clan the royal family of Ammarindar is .... i know that three clans from Ammarindar and citadel Felbarr migrated to Myth Drannor but there isn't noticed which clan from where other than two of the clan names is Snowsbattle and Jonedaxe ... anyone with some info about that? |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
Edited by - Sian on 27 Oct 2007 21:21:15 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2007 : 03:24:41
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Could it be a reference to the Thulkarr [Maug-constructs] that were created by the Maug prisoners who were transported to Thuldanin?
Could be.
One of the scribes here at C-Keep put me onto this reference.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2007 : 05:50:53
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Grats George on the new addition.
We all have to do our part to pump-out future gamers. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Oct 2007 22:14:32 |
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Brenigin
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
117 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2007 : 07:24:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Grats George on the new edition.
I don't think George is entirely to thank/blame for 4E! Congrats on the new addition though! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2007 : 09:21:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenigin
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Grats George on the new edition.
I don't think George is entirely to thank/blame for 4E! Congrats on the new addition though!
Nah, Mark was thinking of the baby as George 2.0. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Gems of Lore in GHotR
