| Author |
 Topic  |
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 22:43:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by Haman
I think the setting should lose everyone that rants and complains about the changes it's going through before we've even seen the final product.
That will probably be a voluntary exodus. |
 |
|
|
Ugly is the new black
Seeker
Australia
81 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 23:05:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by darkhuntress
Monty Haul is the new black.
+1.
love,
nathan. |
As he knelt on the ground with his brothers around and the taste of his blood on his tongue,
His brothers knelt by him and prayed him a prayer, and he smiled and he laughed and he sung,
"Brothers, oh brothers, my days here are done, the Dornishman's taken my life,
But what does it matter? For all men must die, and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife!" |
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2007 : 19:10:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And I'd like to see that my preferred theory about Bane's return is correct -- that he hasn't returned; it's really Xvim, capitalizing on Daddy's name.
I don't believe I'm familiar with your theory Wooly. Can you elaborate?
Basically, I see three possibilities for Bane's return. The first two are based on Xvim's actions with gathering the remaining bits of Bane's power, which, I believe, eventually reached critical mass and caused Bane to return.
Theory 1) "At last, I have returned!" This theory is that Bane created Xvim as a shell to house his essence until such time as he could come back. The biggest point supporting this theory is Xvim's mysterious imprisonment under Zhentil Keep, during the ToT -- gotta have your offsite storage in a secure place. The biggest point against this theory is that it means Bane admitted the possibility of his own demise. Nothing I've seen about Bane suggests that the ultimate tyrant would believe it possible to be killed. I admit this theory is feasible, but I don't support it.
Theory 2) "Holy crap, I'm back!" This theory is that Bane's return was a surprise to all, including himself. Since Xvim was the son of Bane, when he had gathered enough of his father's essence, it achieved critical mass and subsumed him. The reborn Bane is a mix of both Xvim and Bane, with Bane dominant. Supporting this theory is the number of changes Bane has had since his return, including now favoring Xvim's old colors, using some of the same type of critters that Xvim favored, and the fact that Bane did not resume using his old colors or holy symbol. I find this to be the most likely theory.
Theory 3) "Hey, look at me, I'm Bane! Really, I am!" This theory, my newest, my favorite, and the most fun one, is that Bane hasn't really returned. The vision and "return" were both con jobs on Xvim's part. By assuming Bane's name and identity, Xvim capitalizes on the reputation and power of his late father. He gets some of Bane's followers to return, he keeps his own, and he gets to enjoy all the benefits Daddy had. Win-win for Junior. This theory is also supported by the same factors that support theory 2 -- the difference is that Xvim made the changes to bridge the gap between himself and his father, or that maybe Xvim really is a gestalt of Bane and Xvim, but in the scenario, Xvim is dominant. While this theory is my favorite, beyond the blending of Xvim's and Bane's representations, there is nothing that truly supports Bane not being Bane. Indications, yes, but those also reflect theory 2 (and do so more convincingly).
I completely believe it is reasonable to assume it is Bane...I think he either got the idea from Manshoon...or more likely, Manshoon was inspired of Bane.
Manshoon is famous for his returning after death through clones. I was surprised that a God wouldn't have the same idea as one of his followers.
The only reason I think Bane didn't return immediately and shed the husk of Xvim is that Xvim (as not really a clone, but a divinely inspired home for maybe a sort of Magic Jar) had to collect enough of Bane's former power to implement the return.
I also thought that Bane, being my favorite badguy god of all time would be a little more pissed at Cyric and start an all out war against the Dark Sun and crush the life from him and thus become a truly dominant evil Greater God again.
That's what I hoped for anyway. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2007 : 19:24:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
Only Mystra have Chosen, agreed.
But I want to continue to see some of the others Divine Champions, in the new books, specially Shintala Deepcrest, and Amlaruil. 
Now, one thing that the Realms could lose, for me, is that bothering focus on drow!
It seems to me that Drow really aren't any extreme focus in the Realms. They have always been enemies of the elves...and highly active in the area of the Dales. What makes it seem like such an intense focus, as far as I'm concerned, are the novels. Drizzt sells books (although I like Artemis more than him...but I do like Drizzt). Daughter of the Drow wasn't a lousy work either.
The real kicker that has made drow MUCH more visible is the Cormanthor War and the Crusade. Before that, none of the folks of the Realms even realized there had been a massive invasion of the Elven Court by Drow...we the readers knew...but the people of the Dales thought that perhaps they were just going through another period of raids and banditry.
That's my take at least.
I would like to see the Drow go back to being more of an Underdark race than the efforts that have shown them as wanting to return to the surface. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2007 : 19:37:06
|
NOTHING should be gotten rid of. This is exactly the attitude that is alienating so many 'old-timers'. There nothing wrong with change, but 'ret-conning' stuff as if it were never there destroys the 'fourth wall' and our immersion into the setting. If something came off 'dumb' in another edition, or boring, then fix-it, don't just throw it away.
If it was so bad, then why did so many of us fall in love in the first place? I don't want to just "kill them and take their stuff" - that's juvenile and counter-productive.
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
It may be a moot point, but even thought I think that they were poorly introduced into the Realms, I don't like to see anything that has been firmly establish just disappear, at least not officially.
Precisely my point.
Many of us over at the WotC boards have been trying to 'fix' these orphaned settings (and let's not forget the 6th official one - Malatra). There is a lot of good to be had there, as KEJR has pointed out, and if we focus on those things that are fantastical they start to look less like derivitive analogs. Brian's contributions to the GHotR go a long way toward integration, and a continuation down that road could bring new interest to regions that were considered boring in previous editions.
quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Make sure you post an update when the revised western Faerun maps are out - I use these quite frequently for reference. Keep up the good work.
Thank You, it means a lot to me knowing folks are using these, especially considering 4e may just invalidate all of it.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 28 Sep 2007 19:38:42 |
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2007 : 19:45:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmm, what should change?
Something needs to happen with Mulmaster. There's a lot happening on the other side of the Moonsea, and they should be able to make some grabs. I've always liked the idea that they seize down to the city of King's Reach and form a small kingdom, having friction with their good neighbors of Impiltur. Maybe they pull in some slaves from nearby Thar to help work the land, establishing a state religion worshipping Bane. Perhaps they even aid the former lord of Hillsfar in recovering his city, in return for fealty to the nation of Mulmaster.... thus cutting off Zhentil Keep's ships from entering the Moonsea. Mind Mages (psionic and enchanters) serving the crown could keep people under control, etc...
Something did happen with Mulmaster: it joined the Zhentarim. Essentially the Moonsea environs are now one nation under the boot of Bane. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2007 : 19:53:52
|
The only thing I would like to see the FR lose is Fzoul of Bane (yeah, I love Bane...but loath Fzoul). Not in a "hack him out and be done with him" sort of way; but in a good story. I simply don't like the guy...and I refuse to believe that Manshoon has given up on HIS Zhentarim.
I always had the feeling that WotC wanted a Cleric badguy in charge of the Zhentarim when they brought the Shade Enclave back...but the Zhentarim belong in Manshoon's hands...
If it can't be that way, then I would like to see the Zhentarim essentially cease to be as is and evolve into a Kingdom of Bane holding the Moonsea area...with Warlords and such in charge and not a Chosen of Bane.
If there were going to be a Kingdom of Orcs though...I always pictured it in Thar...not as allies of the Silver Marches...sheer madness! As much as I hate the "CCC" (being from the south I've had enough of it since I was a kid...that sort of garbage), I'm all for the dwarves wanting to wipe orcs off the face of Faerun! I mean really...its getting too "racially correct" in the Realms. Give me some black and white fun adventure please! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2007 : 20:37:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmm, what should change?
Something needs to happen with Mulmaster. There's a lot happening on the other side of the Moonsea, and they should be able to make some grabs. I've always liked the idea that they seize down to the city of King's Reach and form a small kingdom, having friction with their good neighbors of Impiltur. Maybe they pull in some slaves from nearby Thar to help work the land, establishing a state religion worshipping Bane. Perhaps they even aid the former lord of Hillsfar in recovering his city, in return for fealty to the nation of Mulmaster.... thus cutting off Zhentil Keep's ships from entering the Moonsea. Mind Mages (psionic and enchanters) serving the crown could keep people under control, etc...
Something did happen with Mulmaster: it joined the Zhentarim. Essentially the Moonsea environs are now one nation under the boot of Bane.
Hmmm, I hadn't seen that part anywhere? I saw they took over Phlan and basically the Western side of the Moonsea, but nothing to indicate they had seized the whole moonsea. Where was this mentioned? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2007 : 21:04:12
|
quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden
As much as I hate the "CCC" (being from the south I've had enough of it since I was a kid...that sort of garbage), I'm all for the dwarves wanting to wipe orcs off the face of Faerun! I mean really...its getting too "racially correct" in the Realms. Give me some black and white fun adventure please!
I've seen several quoting that they hate the idea of the CCC, saying its a play on the KKK.
I don't think its a bad thing to have this sort of real life counterpart in a game. While I don't support their methods, I can understand where these feelings come from.... and I can easily see such being a naturally occurring issue in these fantasy cultures. Especially when it would be something like these long-lived dwarves compared to these very short lived orcs (this orc kingdom having arisen in less time than a single dwarven generation).
In the end, I can see where this
"The surrounding folk of the Silver Marches would often forgive an orc for behavior they would not accept among their own, and that wounded Obould as greatly as those elves, dwarves, and humans who outwardly and openly sneered at his people."
might come to be abused by Obould's people. They may take advantage of the generosity of the other cultures. There would be those amongst these other cultures who would be upset to see their people's allowing this to happen. This would cause conflict. Conflict is at the heart of good role-playing.
|
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 29 Sep 2007 16:06:52 |
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2007 : 21:47:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmm, what should change?
Something needs to happen with Mulmaster. <snip>
Something did happen with Mulmaster: it joined the Zhentarim. Essentially the Moonsea environs are now one nation under the boot of Bane.
Hmmm, I hadn't seen that part anywhere? I saw they took over Phlan and basically the Western side of the Moonsea, but nothing to indicate they had seized the whole moonsea. Where was this mentioned?
When the High Blade was murdered by his twin, the twin eventually made a pact with Fzoul and joined the inner circle of the Zhentarim. I'll have to reference my books when I get a chance and then make an adjustment to this post.
Essentially, it is supposed to be that nobody knows that Mulmaster has unwittingly become part of the Black Network; but its leader is, so that pretty much sets them there as well.
EDIT: the first reference I found was in Cloak and Dagger, a 2nd Edition book. One of my favorites too! I'm not positive that is the earliest reference, but the only one I've found so far without doing an exhaustive search. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 30 Sep 2007 16:09:20 |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2007 : 04:43:44
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I don't think its a bad thing to have this sort of real life counterpart in a game.
I agree, but I think the name "CCC" is rather...obvious. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2007 : 04:55:30
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I don't think its a bad thing to have this sort of real life counterpart in a game.
I agree, but I think the name "CCC" is rather...obvious.
I know its "elves only," but I would have much preferred to have had the Eldreth Veluuthra survive into the "new Realms" to cause problems. You can explore the same themes with them, and yet their history isn't so obvious parallel to the real world, and it would have actually used some existing Realmlore . . . |
|
|
|
Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2007 : 05:43:58
|
Agreed brother knight!
One has to wonder if RAS even bothers keeping up with what's going on in the rest of the Realms these days (of course this is just speculation, but a basic knowledge of Realms 'current events' would be enough to see that the Eldreth Veluthra was 'begging' to be used here... but no. Let's whip up something controversial! how about CCC?)
Once more: blech.
I'm really fed up with authors trying to blur the lines of the classic fantasy genre to "put themselves on the map." I want to read a Realms fantasy story, not "A Time To Kill" or "The Color Purple". Not that there is anything bad with these other genres, but for Quagmire and Peter Griffin's sake: dwarf, elf, humans = good guys; drow, orcs, mind flayers, beholders = bad guys. STOP BLURRING LINES AND BE CREATIVE WITHIN THE BOX... STOP WORKIND OUTSIDE THE DAMN BOX, LEST YOU WANT TO WAKE UP ONE DAY AND SEE THE BOX GONE FOR GOOD!!!
[sigh] back to the Orc king... I have to go to the end of this disappointment, and try to figure out the exact Dalereckoning year where I'll lock official canon out of my campaign... |
Edited by - Purple Dragon Knight on 29 Sep 2007 05:44:50 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2007 : 05:48:24
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I don't think its a bad thing to have this sort of real life counterpart in a game.
I agree, but I think the name "CCC" is rather...obvious.
One thing that bothers me about that... Since when has anyone in the Realms used an acronym? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2007 : 15:01:23
|
quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden
It seems to me that Drow really aren't any extreme focus in the Realms. They have always been enemies of the elves...and highly active in the area of the Dales. What makes it seem like such an intense focus, as far as I'm concerned, are the novels. Drizzt sells books (although I like Artemis more than him...but I do like Drizzt). Daughter of the Drow wasn't a lousy work either.
The real kicker that has made drow MUCH more visible is the Cormanthor War and the Crusade. Before that, none of the folks of the Realms even realized there had been a massive invasion of the Elven Court by Drow...we the readers knew...but the people of the Dales thought that perhaps they were just going through another period of raids and banditry.
That's my take at least.
I would like to see the Drow go back to being more of an Underdark race than the efforts that have shown them as wanting to return to the surface.
It´s the novel focus that bother me. And I´m not speaking that some of these novels aren´t good. Starlight and Shadows trilogy is the best realms trilogy that I known (IMO, dudes, IMO). But, after all these years, with all these drow novels, I stay tired of drows. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
|
|
|
Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1707 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2007 : 15:22:00
|
The hints of Spelljamming in long-lost legends and current clack make for good copy. Ayunken's right--they're believed to be kids' tales, but for those who know of and like spelljamming, you're plugged into another level of detail that can be played with. And THAT is one of the strengths of the Realms--have a number of different ways to look at any situation (dependent on your level of background knowledge). It can either be a legend, some other magic, spelljamming, or something else entirely.
And for the record, I'll take it on the chin for starting the whole primrose-laden path of non-Mystran Chosen with Jeryth Phaulkon in CITY OF SPLENDORS. Mea culpa. If I'd realized the can of worms I was opening there, I'd have never done it. Even so, sometimes they worked (or I like to think so) with Fzoul's work as Xvim's Champion/Chosen, albeit briefly. (And were I running an FR game myself, I'd use Wooly's Option #3 as well, simply because mortals should never know the whole truth about their gods and it's sneaky fun...and it makes Fzoul less of a shmuck for constantly shifting his allegiance.)
Steven
who likens the ancient comings of spelljammers as his tip of the hat to Erik von Daniken and H.P. Lovecraft |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
|
|
|
|
Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1707 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2007 : 15:31:07
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I don't think its a bad thing to have this sort of real life counterpart in a game.
I agree, but I think the name "CCC" is rather...obvious.
One thing that bothers me about that... Since when has anyone in the Realms used an acronym?
Well, there's King Haedrak Lhorik Errilam Ashar Olosar Rhindaun of Tethyr, also once known by the scrambled acronymical of Lhaeo.... 
Steven
who confesses he's probably gotten a name or two wrong under Haedrak's name, as he can't remember all five royal names off the top of his head at this point.... |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
|
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2007 : 15:58:23
|
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I don't think its a bad thing to have this sort of real life counterpart in a game.
I agree, but I think the name "CCC" is rather...obvious.
One thing that bothers me about that... Since when has anyone in the Realms used an acronym?
Well, there's King Haedrak Lhorik Errilam Ashar Olosar Rhindaun of Tethyr, also once known by the scrambled acronymical of Lhaeo....
Steven
who confesses he's probably gotten a name or two wrong under Haedrak's name, as he can't remember all five royal names off the top of his head at this point....
Really? That's where the name Lhaeo came from? I had no idea... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2007 : 17:50:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I don't think its a bad thing to have this sort of real life counterpart in a game.
I agree, but I think the name "CCC" is rather...obvious.
I dunno. I'm not sure why a County Cricket Club would go about bashing orcs, me. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
|
|
|
Baroth
Acolyte
Switzerland
14 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2007 : 19:06:45
|
As some already mentionend, I, too, would not "kill off" or "lose" anything just like that in the current FR. However, there is quite a lot of material that I would like to see being rewritten or partly redesigned. Most of the "real world material" could be described in own terms instead of using "real world material". For example, egyptian themed lands are fine, but copying the gods from our myths is unoriginal and especially less appealing than original material.
I would stop trying to explain rules changes through lore and history. If one does not use rule terms within lore, there is no problem with changing the underlying rules. For example, instead of saying that Mystra banned 10th+ level spells after the fall of Nethril one could have said that she just banned a certain powerful spells, but still allowing rituals.
|
Edited by - Baroth on 29 Sep 2007 19:14:16 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2007 : 22:36:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by Baroth
I would stop trying to explain rules changes through lore and history.
The problem is when rule changes affect the lore -- like the ToT covered the sudden loss of all members of the assassin class. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Brynweir
Senior Scribe
USA
436 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2007 : 22:45:44
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The problem is when rule changes affect the lore -- like the ToT covered the sudden loss of all members of the assassin class.
I never fully understood why they removed the assassin class. ? |
Anyone who likes to read something that's really dark and gritty and completely awesome ought to read The Night Angel Trilogy by Brent Weeks. You can check out a little taste at www.BrentWeeks.com I should probably warn you, though, that it is definitely not PG-13 :-D
He also started a new Trilogy with Black Prism, which may even surpass the Night Angel Trilogy in its awesomeness.
|
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 00:49:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Baroth
I would stop trying to explain rules changes through lore and history.
The problem is when rule changes affect the lore -- like the ToT covered the sudden loss of all members of the assassin class.
This is now the result of a retcon. In the FRCS, on pg. 264, it states that only the assassins that worshiped Bhaal were killed, and thus, not ALL assassins were eradicated during the demise of Bhaal.
Additionally, it is important to note that only those characters in the Realms who had assassin class would've actually died (which means any unstatted characters before this time could have easily survived the event).
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 00:59:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
The hints of Spelljamming in long-lost legends and current clack make for good copy. Ayunken's right--they're believed to be kids' tales, but for those who know of and like spelljamming, you're plugged into another level of detail that can be played with. And THAT is one of the strengths of the Realms--have a number of different ways to look at any situation (dependent on your level of background knowledge). It can either be a legend, some other magic, spelljamming, or something else entirely.
And for the record, I'll take it on the chin for starting the whole primrose-laden path of non-Mystran Chosen with Jeryth Phaulkon in CITY OF SPLENDORS. Mea culpa. If I'd realized the can of worms I was opening there, I'd have never done it. Even so, sometimes they worked (or I like to think so) with Fzoul's work as Xvim's Champion/Chosen, albeit briefly. (And were I running an FR game myself, I'd use Wooly's Option #3 as well, simply because mortals should never know the whole truth about their gods and it's sneaky fun...and it makes Fzoul less of a shmuck for constantly shifting his allegiance.)
Steven
who likens the ancient comings of spelljammers as his tip of the hat to Erik von Daniken and H.P. Lovecraft
Now, I that talk about spelljammers give me some new ideas to my Vilhon Reach campaign (that is, basically, a psionic campaign).
Heh, if my players find the Extaaminar problematic, expect to see the neogi...  
Realmspace, here we goooo...
Chosen of Moradin, listening Bruce Dickinson - Navigate the seas of the sun |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
|
|
|
Baroth
Acolyte
Switzerland
14 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 09:08:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Baroth
I would stop trying to explain rules changes through lore and history.
The problem is when rule changes affect the lore -- like the ToT covered the sudden loss of all members of the assassin class.
Actually, that is a good example. Why would you have to kill all the assassins in the Realms just for a new ruleset? The NPCs of FR do not know anything about (rule-)classes as such and thus one could easily have said that all the assassins are now restated as rogue/assassin or rogue/fighter, no harm done. If the assassin class had some abilities that were exlusive to it and very important to the lore, one could have created or modified a class (PRC or BC) to fit.
I started playing P&P games a bit more than 10 years ago with the german game "Das Schwarze Auge" (English "The Dark Eye"), and later, I was introduced to FR and D&D in general. I was always under the impression that the rules were meant to describe a fantasy world and anything happening in it. If the rules were changed, it would not affect the game because we, the players, just switched to a more accurate description of the world. Perhaps I was misguided but the following analogy should help to understand my point.
Nowadays, physicans have a certain model of how things in our universe work (rougly). If a new underlying theory is discovered which is able to describe the processes in the universe in a better and more accurate way, they will adapt it but this won't change the processes or things in the actual world. Earth is still the third, big, floating junk of material in our solar system whether it is called Earth, planet or something completely different. |
Edited by - Baroth on 30 Sep 2007 09:12:05 |
|
|
|
Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 16:22:15
|
| Well, the assassin thing is a part of the "clean-up" of D&D's image with 2ed. They were, with demons and devils, among the things that gave the game bad press. Therefore the assassins had to go. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 16:39:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by Baroth
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Baroth
I would stop trying to explain rules changes through lore and history.
The problem is when rule changes affect the lore -- like the ToT covered the sudden loss of all members of the assassin class.
Actually, that is a good example. Why would you have to kill all the assassins in the Realms just for a new ruleset? The NPCs of FR do not know anything about (rule-)classes as such and thus one could easily have said that all the assassins are now restated as rogue/assassin or rogue/fighter, no harm done. If the assassin class had some abilities that were exlusive to it and very important to the lore, one could have created or modified a class (PRC or BC) to fit.
The thing was, in 1E, assassin was a base class. And it had abilities not shared with rogues or fighters. Some of the lost 1E classes could be translated easily to a 2E class (cavaliers became fighters, for example), but someone obviously felt that this didn't apply to assassins. PrCs are a 3E invention; their predecessor was the 2E kit, which was itself a later addition. So those weren't an option, either. In fact, I think the 2E designers initially thought that the class and proficiency system would be sufficient to customize characters.
So assassins became something of a problem. Right or wrong, the designers felt the best way to handle it was to kill them off. And honestly, I like the way they did it. It worked for the way they told the story.
When the rules changes affect the lore, it's best to use the lore to explain those changes. They tried to ignore that in 3E, and people are still pissed about it... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 16:46:15
|
I also think that there was still some of the feeling that was implied in the old 1st edition rules that people "in game" knew what level and class people were by what there "title" was, which was the original intent of the titles according to the 1st edition DMG. While now we tend to think that, for the most part, a class is a collection of abilities that a given character has, and their class is kind of assigned based on what most closes fits that, this wasn't the default.
I'd venture to say that the advent of D&D fiction marked the end of people "in game" knowing classes and levels of other characters by their title. It became a bit awkward to think that the court wizard would refer to "Superhero Anthaenes" and know how powerful he is.
Heck, I couldn't pick out that Riverwind or Tristan were rangers for quite a while in their respective books. |
|
|
|
Baroth
Acolyte
Switzerland
14 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 17:56:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[...]
When the rules changes affect the lore, it's best to use the lore to explain those changes. They tried to ignore that in 3E, and people are still pissed about it...
I fully agree, but ONLY when the rule changes affect the lore which should not happen or only happen in rare cases. |
Edited by - Baroth on 30 Sep 2007 18:06:11 |
|
|
|
Aewrik
Seeker
80 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2007 : 22:26:27
|
| Heh... perhaps it should lose the D20-system? |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
What should the setting lose?
