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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Aug 2007 : 23:31:12
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The timer hit zero, said Now! and became a hyperlink... to a "Service Unavailable" page.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2007 : 23:32:23
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| Yes I am really impressed as well, I even tried a reload with no success. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Dungeon Moron
Acolyte
41 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2007 : 23:32:33
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Perhaps every DnD fanatic is hitting the refresh button atm :D
If you'll would just wait a sec and let a few of us in |
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Drakul
Senior Scribe
USA
367 Posts |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2007 : 23:34:41
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| The day ... ahem ... night when D&D bit the bullett. ;) |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2007 : 23:36:52
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I thought I might try EnWorld for back up....no dice there, either.
Who broke the internet?
;) |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2007 : 23:36:55
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I had two browsers open, only used one, the 'js' sent the other browser to NA as well.
Page source indicates no script running, I think somebody in webmaster department either was not ready or had a fundmental design flaw. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2007 : 23:47:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
I had two browsers open, only used one, the 'js' sent the other browser to NA as well.
Page source indicates no script running, I think somebody in webmaster department either was not ready or had a fundmental design flaw.
I vote for both!
Oh magic  will the WOTC site be up before monring? *shakes *
Hmmm all signs point to yes.
I think it lies.
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I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2007 : 23:49:59
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Oh that is good, somebody or something apparently took out all of WotC website.
I relaoded the main page to only end up getting NA. I can not visit Magic or any other product line. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Drakul
Senior Scribe
USA
367 Posts |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2007 : 23:54:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It doesn't have to be something major like the ToT... Just something to explain changes, rather than insult our intelligence by saying things were always that way.
This just makes me shake my head. I mean, I try to have empathy for this feeling and I can understand why someone would want that......but I just still can’t believe people feel this way.
Simply put: WotC's decision to listen to its active fan base (at that time, circa 1998-2000) is hardly some form of insult to one's intelligence.
The fans did not want another ToT. Or anything like it.
And quite frankly, re-imagining the Realms as WotC asked us to do seven or so years ago might be hard for a five year old, but it should be a nothing-effort for experienced gamers of our caliber.
Yeah, they're known for listening to the fanbase. That's why they specifically said they didn't, and that's why they just changed things because they felt like it, with no regard whatsoever for how anyone might feel about it. That's an excellent example of listening. Oh, and the gods know we've all been asking for a new RSE every week... 
I'll say it again: they had the opportunity to officially change things with the return of Shade. And not only did they not do it, they also failed to do it with a trilogy that has some seriously mixed reviews.
Can we explain the changes ourselves? Yes, indeed. But why should we have to? Why should we have to try to come up with an explanation for an arbitrary change? Shouldn't the persons making the change give a good reason for it?
I don't care if they decide to change something. I like it when things change in the setting -- it keeps things flowing and dynamic, and for me, that is a huge part of the appeal of the setting. I just disagree with the "Ignore all the references to this being this other way -- this new lore which specifically invalidates years of old lore is not only the way it is, it's the way it's always been." If something like that isn't insulting our intelligence, then I don't know what is. And maybe I'm being selfish, but when I've faithfully supported a company for 20 years, I don't like being told that my opinion matters much less than the opinion of this new guy who has never before picked up a D&D book. And that, too, is something that has been explicitly stated.
The explanation didn't have to be a "gods walk Toril" kind of major event. Heck, even if the powers that be had adopted Bruce Cordell's "out" in Die, Vecna, Die, that reality had been warped by Vecna's assault on Sigil, but not even that was used as an explanation, but rather we were told explicitly that nothing had changed, which is what was a bit frustrating.
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 00:00:48
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I respect you, Wooly, but I sure as hell disagree with you.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yeah, they're known for listening to the fanbase. That's why they specifically said they didn't, and that's why they just changed things because they felt like it, with no regard whatsoever for how anyone might feel about it.
I call absolute, 100% pure BS, unless you can cite your source(s) for the three very specific claims you just made.
WotC's record of data gathering and interaction with fans from time period is public knowledge -on the record, as it were- as is their record of explaining what they were doing during that time period.
Therefore, your claims are patently false.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Can we explain the changes ourselves? Yes, indeed. But why should we have to? Why should we have to try to come up with an explanation for an arbitrary change? Shouldn't the persons making the change give a good reason for it?
???
Where, when and why are you ‘forced’ to explain things? And to whom are you explaining?
Really, I’d like to know.
I’ve asked people this question for, well, seven or so years now in response to similar claims and nobody (not Kuje, not Shemy, not GothicDan, nobody) has been able to answer it.
You’re claiming there’s a problem here, when there isn’t.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I just disagree with the "Ignore all the references to this being this other way -- this new lore which specifically invalidates years of old lore is not only the way it is, it's the way it's always been."
The invalidation argument is as equally flimsy as the claim we were all forced to explain away the revisions. Really, if you -as a fan- like the older maps, then use them. Where’s the problem in this?
Same thing for the Cosmology.
When, exactly, were you stripped of your power to do this? It’s a fact the new material didn’t make the old material unusable --which pretty much kills your claim that WotC is telling us to ignore the old lore.
Wizards of the Cost never, ever did that. You just assumed otherwise.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And maybe I'm being selfish, but when I've faithfully supported a company for 20 years, I don't like being told that my opinion matters much less than the opinion of this new guy who has never before picked up a D&D book. And that, too, is something that has been explicitly stated.
Prove it.
As I’ve oft said, and it bears repeating here, WotC owes it’s fans exactly ZERO for their choice to purchase WotC’s products.
WotC’s business and design decisions not reflecting the opinions of the hardcore vocal online minority in no way serves as proof that WotC does not listen to its customers.
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09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
Edited by - Sanishiver on 17 Aug 2007 00:02:24 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 00:30:01
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Hmm the debate on fan base being listened to has no facts on either side. Unless they has been a poll taken to prove an indication.
WotC clearly listens to some fans on some issues, The Sage clearly offered reinterpertations based on fan questions.
This debate of how resposive WotC is can be based on preception only. When TSR (not sure if WotC had purchased them yet) they found in warehouse unsold material that dated back years. The offer was made "we will sell at cover price what we have, what we do not sell gets trashed". I offered the idea of a Dutch Auction (even with a minimun price) to maximise sales, plus shipping and handling. This idea was rejected outright. This fan was not listened to in that regard. Other fans clearly can believe they were not listened to.
In fairness I will admit I was listen to, just the policy was already set and would not be revisited.
So a lot of material went to the trash. *shrugs* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 17 Aug 2007 00:31:34 |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 00:39:06
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Here in Brazil, nothing load until now in the D&D site...
...and I'm here in this scroll to discuss about the news of the 4th edition. So, if Sanishiver (and Wooly, too ) could make a great favor, and send his disagreement by Private Message (a good tool, indeed), the scroll stay more clean, for all of us.
Thanks. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 00:41:42
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I'd just like to say that the new D&D site looks fantastic. Good luck getting it to load though! Have a look here if you can't get to see it though.
D&D Official Site Pic (Large!) |
Edited by - Uzzy on 17 Aug 2007 00:44:41 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 00:49:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
I'd just like to say that the new D&D site looks fantastic. Good luck getting it to load though!
*LOL*
As I think about it the webmaster planted their own time bomb. Everyone that had that countdown page open would be sent the announcement at the same time. A prefect recipie for a server crash, espciallially if the announce ment included movie and sound. Odds are likely there was a cascade of failures taking out most of the site (As forums were reported to be working) because WotC tried to send out content to too many people at the exact same time. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 01:41:26
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Well the female warrior sketch is hot. ;)
I also like the new Dungeons & Dragons logo/text style. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
Edited by - SirUrza on 17 Aug 2007 01:41:59 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 01:42:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
WotC's record of data gathering and interaction with fans from time period is public knowledge -on the record, as it were- as is their record of explaining what they were doing during that time period.
Therefore, your claims are patently false.
WOTC does indeed gather information, but the thing to keep in mind is that they are giving equal weight to those who don't play D&D and those who don't play in the Realms as well, in the hopes of drawing them into the setting. They are taking a gamble that "we," the established fans, will stick with them no matter what the put out while the try to grow the base. Some will, some won't, but the main point is they don't like that their core players average 30 now, and they are intentionally going for people that do not currently game, so obviously, this is giving weight to those that do not game.
This has been stated several times on the WOTC site, in their initiatives, in interviews with various online gaming sites, and in Dragon Magazine. Its not that they don't care if anyone plays the game, but the established base isn't who they are catering too, since they are assuming we are a "lock."
quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
???
Where, when and why are you ‘forced’ to explain things? And to whom are you explaining?
Really, I’d like to know.
I’ve asked people this question for, well, seven or so years now in response to similar claims and nobody (not Kuje, not Shemy, not GothicDan, nobody) has been able to answer it.
You’re claiming there’s a problem here, when there isn’t.
Anytime you have to explain it to a gamer that's been away from the Realms since 2nd edition it comes up. Anytime someone comes to the site and asks why there has been a change . . . if you are a DM and have players used to the "old way," you may want to explain what happened . . . no, perhaps "forced" in the literal sense isn't true, but "forced" in the sense that if you want to give an answer you have to, well, yes.
quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
The invalidation argument is as equally flimsy as the claim we were all forced to explain away the revisions. Really, if you -as a fan- like the older maps, then use them. Where’s the problem in this?
Same thing for the Cosmology.
When, exactly, were you stripped of your power to do this? It’s a fact the new material didn’t make the old material unusable --which pretty much kills your claim that WotC is telling us to ignore the old lore.
Wizards of the Cost never, ever did that. You just assumed otherwise.
Well, several designers have said that, "Its this way now, and there is no explanation because its always been this way." Maybe not "officially" WOTC statements, but its pretty clearly stated by people that have worked on the material.
And again, anyone that is familiar with the new material, if you use the old material, is going to wonder why things don't match up. If you have good players, they'll accept that you prefer the old way, but that doesn't keep the confusion from arising in the first place.
quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
Prove it.
As I’ve oft said, and it bears repeating here, WotC owes it’s fans exactly ZERO for their choice to purchase WotC’s products.
WotC’s business and design decisions not reflecting the opinions of the hardcore vocal online minority in no way serves as proof that WotC does not listen to its customers.
No, WOTC doesn't owe me anything. If I blindly buy their products without any thought, I deserve what I get. But if they want my continued support, it would be a good idea to actually pay attention to what I want from them.
They are trying to seize the unsure but "potential" dollar by not providing what the proven base has already purchased. But then again, I must be missing the market research that you are privy too that proves that we curmudgeons here at Candlekeep are aberrations to the Forgotten Realms fanbase.
The gamble is that they can do something to bring in new, young gamers that aren't familiar with the game, and that the people that have been around 20 years or more (that would include me) will this stick around and wait out whatever experiments they do. They know this, but they are intentionally betting on this, and if it works, so be it, but it doesn't mean that we are in the minority of Realms fans or that they are serving a larger portion of their audience.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 01:52:03
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A slight improvement
quote:
We're Experiencing Technical Difficulties
Unfortunately, due to an extremely high load on our web servers, we have been unable to bring you our normal web content. We apologize for the inconvenience and ask that you please try again in a few hours! Our technical team is aware of the problem and working on it.
Thank you for your patience!
© 1995-2007 Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Bombing yourself if that was what occured and I think it was will cause problems for you. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 01:58:06
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| Not surprising. I bet they are receiving more hits this evening then they did in the whole of this year. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 01:58:54
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
The FRCS was the only big seller in the Realms line. Why do you think they barely converted the Realms to 3E? They weren't making any money on it.
You think Wizards would release four big Realms sourcebooks each year for seven straight years while not making any money?quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
When 1E shifted to 2E, the changes were rather minor. To my mind, they were almost entirely cosmetic.
There's a great difference in philosophy, much smaller difference in the literal rules.quote:
I'm inclined to think it's going to be more like 1E to 2E, or 3E to 3.5E, rather than the shift from 2E to 3E.
The 3E approach is too popular for a drastic change, but I have some hope of it drifting in a direction I prefer.quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I spent months swearing that the Saga system wasn't a prelude to 4th edition, but given that d20 Star Wars was the prelude to 3rd edition, its likely now that this might have been a glimpse of the future.
I expect a few similarities, but I don't believe Saga is any kind of detailed preview simply because 4E isn't designed by Owen Stephens and Rodney Thompson.quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
fluff
Sir, you know better than that.quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Things like that and many more make no sense espcially when Ed says potion of longevity did exist (and some charaters might still have some) but nobody else can get one/find one/make one (Even with Epic magic).
Characters can only do things explicitly detailed in rulebooks?quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yeah, they're known for listening to the fanbase. That's why they specifically said they didn't, and that's why they just changed things because they felt like it, with no regard whatsoever for how anyone might feel about it.
Sometimes they listened -- especially when what they heard matched what they wanted to do -- sometimes not. I don't believe temporary custodians of other people's settings have any business retconning them to match their preferences; I see good arguments for and against turning the retcons into in-world events. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 02:02:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
Not surprising. I bet they are receiving more hits this evening then they did in the whole of this year.
But they called for the hits with their bloody countdown. Server load goes both ways, sending out too much (or trying to) can cause a crash quicker then having random requests at or about 6:30 local time. They programed their crash by not having extra resourses available to do a massive data dump all to start at 0. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 02:04:04
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| Very true. They should have been prepared! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 02:07:46
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You know what guys?
I find myself...not having passionate feelings about 4th edition at all. I'm interested in seeing what's done. I'm still trying to access the WotC website. Most importantly, if I don't like something, or prefer things "the old way", I'll just ignore that which I do not like. I plan to ride the tide, and I'll ride it with a sense of humor.
But then again, I am not a DM and I did not buy all that many hardcover sourcebooks, at least not compared to a lot of other vocal fans, so I can understand where the anxiety is coming from. I'm sure those who have read many of my posts realize that I'm not a rules junkie at all and am mainly concerned with stories, characters, theme, and roleplaying (none of that is or should be changed by new editions--but again, I'm not a DM!). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 17 Aug 2007 02:12:18 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 02:08:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Things like that and many more make no sense espcially when Ed says potion of longevity did exist (and some charaters might still have some) but nobody else can get one/find one/make one (Even with Epic magic).
Characters can only do things explicitly detailed in rulebooks?
Well it becomes rather hard to explain to 3.X players joining a campaign that 2nd Edition magic exists. Yes I can House rule anything I want, but such changes do not make sense. It does not flow properly. There again we still have about a year to see what changes will come. Perhaps this should belong to another scroll. As none of the transition from 2nd to 3rd has anything to do with transistion from 3rd to 4th. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 17 Aug 2007 02:19:37 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 02:17:50
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What I don't fully understand is the strong negative feeling of some toward the new edition in principle, as if it somehow affects their ability to use the 3E materials they have.
Click here to view a 4E promo picture, but shield your view of the filename in the address bar. What does it seem to depict? |
Edited by - Faraer on 17 Aug 2007 02:20:35 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 02:20:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
What I don't fully understand is the strong negative feeling of some toward the new edition in principle, as if it somehow affects their ability to use the 3E materials they have.
Click here, but shield your view of the filename in the address bar. What does it seem to depict?
I don't like his face at all (then again, "fugly" characters aren't anything new). And yes, (highlight!) he looks human at first glance.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 17 Aug 2007 02:23:33 |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 02:28:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Sian
well ... i must admit ... i don't want to take an opinion about wether a new edition is good or bad before i get the chance to sit down and read it from cover to cover :p
Its bad, because it will likely mean, regurgitation of stuff that has already been covered in 3 Editions so far, with nothing that is "NEW" to come out. |
News of the Weird
D20 System Reference Document
D20 Modern System Reference Document
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 02:29:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Hmm, Chosen of Moradin posted the same thing I did, just a bit earlier... Ah, well. I'll leave my post there to keep folks from having to go elsewhere. 
Good idea! I make that post quickly, because I was going to see a sell of dvds... but to my despair, the most "new" movie on the store was Bonanza... 
And now that the inevitable is upon us, I start to wonder what names we will see in the cover of FR 4th edition... If was to satisfy my taste, these names will be:
Ed of the Green Wood
Steven Schend
Eric Boyd
George Krashos
Sean K Reynolds
Thomas Reid
Fixed |
News of the Weird
D20 System Reference Document
D20 Modern System Reference Document
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2007 : 02:34:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
I respect you, Wooly, but I sure as hell disagree with you.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yeah, they're known for listening to the fanbase. That's why they specifically said they didn't, and that's why they just changed things because they felt like it, with no regard whatsoever for how anyone might feel about it.
I call absolute, 100% pure BS, unless you can cite your source(s) for the three very specific claims you just made.
WotC's record of data gathering and interaction with fans from time period is public knowledge -on the record, as it were- as is their record of explaining what they were doing during that time period.
Therefore, your claims are patently false.
Really? Before my wrongful banning from the WotC forums, I had made the suggestion that maybe they could take a poll to see what people actually wanted for web content. A staffer came in and explained they didn't want that kind of feedback -- they only looked at page hits.
As for the other part -- it was the words of Rich Baker himself, on the WotC forums. He specifically stated that they weren't as concerned about the old fans, they were only worried about new fans. So they felt free to change things, because it was all for the new fans, who didn't know things had been changed.
And I don't recall what it was, but when asked about something specific that was changed, the answer was along the lines of "I just felt like changing it."
I do not state things as fact unless I know they are actual facts. I quite resent your implications otherwise.
quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Can we explain the changes ourselves? Yes, indeed. But why should we have to? Why should we have to try to come up with an explanation for an arbitrary change? Shouldn't the persons making the change give a good reason for it?
???
Where, when and why are you ‘forced’ to explain things? And to whom are you explaining?
Really, I’d like to know.
I’ve asked people this question for, well, seven or so years now in response to similar claims and nobody (not Kuje, not Shemy, not GothicDan, nobody) has been able to answer it.
You’re claiming there’s a problem here, when there isn’t.
How have you not seen the running list of changes that weren't explained?
Here's something to explain, then -- if there are no worlds other than the Realms, as they specifically stated, then how are gods and people from other worlds able to get to Toril? How have people from Toril casually stepped from one plane to another, when now those planes either don't exist, or you can't get to them without going thru either the Astral or the Shadow Planes? How is it that a quite non-magical race (dwarves) suddenly has mages and sorcerers?
And who am I explaining those things to? Myself, and any other fan of the setting. Things that were undeniable fact for years have been chucked out the window, with no explanation. This damages internal consistency, which makes the setting less believable. How is this not a problem?
quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I just disagree with the "Ignore all the references to this being this other way -- this new lore which specifically invalidates years of old lore is not only the way it is, it's the way it's always been."
The invalidation argument is as equally flimsy as the claim we were all forced to explain away the revisions. Really, if you -as a fan- like the older maps, then use them. Where’s the problem in this?
Same thing for the Cosmology.
When, exactly, were you stripped of your power to do this? It’s a fact the new material didn’t make the old material unusable --which pretty much kills your claim that WotC is telling us to ignore the old lore.
Wizards of the Cost never, ever did that. You just assumed otherwise.
When new material specifically and point blank contradicts old material, how is the old material still usable? When an old book says that A happened, and then a new book says that A is impossible, then how can we continue to use books that say A happened?
Do I have the power to explain things for my own satisfaction? Yes. Yes, I do. But again I ask: if someone changes the setting that they produce, why is it unreasonable to want them to explain it? If you prefer to try to stick with canon, you've got to take whatever the current canon is.
I don't care what they do, so long as everything remains plausible and internally consistent. Many of the 3E changes did not meet this category. The fact that things were not explained for the older fanbase is clear proof of how the older fanbase is simply disregarded.
quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And maybe I'm being selfish, but when I've faithfully supported a company for 20 years, I don't like being told that my opinion matters much less than the opinion of this new guy who has never before picked up a D&D book. And that, too, is something that has been explicitly stated.
Prove it.
As I’ve oft said, and it bears repeating here, WotC owes it’s fans exactly ZERO for their choice to purchase WotC’s products.
WotC’s business and design decisions not reflecting the opinions of the hardcore vocal online minority in no way serves as proof that WotC does not listen to its customers.
When they specifically state that they aren't interested in our opinions, yeah, it does show they don't listen to us. And I may be a hardcore online minority, but I'm also one who, until a recent fire, had damn near every single FR product ever made, and a huge host of other D&D products -- over 500 books, modules, and boxed sets, altogether. I've spent literally thousands on D&D products, so being told point blank that my opinion doesn't matter rankles more than a little.
It wouldn't really have taken all that much effort for them to explain many of the things they changed. For example, the Thunder Blessing would have been an excellent way to explain how a race so non-magical they had problems using arcane devices is suddenly not having any problems like that, and now is fielding plenty of their own arcane spellslingers. But did they take that opportunity? Nope. And why not? Because, as was explicitly stated, it wasn't important to acknowledge the people that kept the company around for more than 20 years -- it was better to ignore them in favor of the hope of grabbing new fans.
*sigh*
Even though I've referred to publicly made statements, I'm certain this argument is not over. But... This isn't the place for it. And we've likely had this argument before. Respond or not as you will. As long as I'm not called a liar again, I'm done with this discussion. |
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