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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Oct 2006 : 17:59:43
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Sorry if this has been covered before, but just what exactly is a 'seraph' in the Realms? I get the idea that they're specially chosen and empowered divine servants, but how do they differ from Chosen? Or is there no difference at all?
Thanks for any help.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2006 : 18:17:46
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| In current lore it's just another name for a Chosen. The two seraphs from 2e are now listed as Chosens of Cyric and Umberlee. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 05 Oct 2006 18:19:25 |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2006 : 18:18:55
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I don't know the exact definition of what "the Seraph of Mask" meant...
there are the proxies of the gods (introduced in Planescape) which are supposed to be the right hand servants of the gods
there are the chosen of the gods, which (IMO) are the mortal (as in living in the Prime Plane) proxies of the gods (and I have always felt because of the nature of Mystra and her portfolio the Chosen of Mystra are not really "chosen" [like how Fzoul is Xvim/Bane's chosen)
as a Seraph (in biblical writings) is the highest levels of angels I would first think they should have been the solars...or at least a super-epic celestial being found in the service of a god (which means they also could be proxie too)
as for "the Seraph of Mask" (and the other seraphs) I think it was downgraded in the "Cole" series of books into another name for "chosen of Mask" |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
Edited by - Kalin Agrivar on 05 Oct 2006 18:19:36 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2006 : 01:34:50
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I never particularly liked it when 3e changed the 2e Seraph's into Chosen. It almost seems like another example of the "nearly every deity's divine champion has to be called a Chosen now" philosophy that was developing in 3e.
As such, I still have Seraphs, both the title and the position, in my campaigns.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2006 : 10:49:17
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I believe that originally the term Chosen was meant to apply only to the Chosen of Mystra. I believe the intent was to use the word Seraph for that position for any other god, although they would certainly be entitled to choose a special title for their seraphs and call them something else as Mystra had.
However, it seems that the term "seraph" has fallen by the wayside and now just everyone is called a "chosen" same as Mystra calls hers. This is probably because the editors and writers were keen to give several other gods seraphs of their own, but had not had the distinction made clear to them. They just called these new seraphs "chosen" same as Mystra had, because that was the term they were familiar with.
In 2E you had proxies, which were agents of a god that could be granted varying levels of divine power, or even no special powers at all, if the god so chose.
However in 3E, a proxy was redefined to be someone in whom the god had invested one whole rank (or more)of his divine rank. This was not a prerequisite in 2E.
A chosen is definitely invested with some degree of divine power, but probably not ever a whole divine rank. A chosen is a type of proxy only in the old 2E sense of the word.
I wish they would go back to the term seraph as it had been intended when it was introduced. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2006 : 17:01:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I believe that originally the term Chosen was meant to apply only to the Chosen of Mystra. I believe the intent was to use the word Seraph for that position for any other god, although they would certainly be entitled to choose a special title for their seraphs and call them something else as Mystra had.
Possibly in Ed's FR but there were other Chosen of the other deities in 2e that appeared in Ed's and Steven's sourcebooks. So, this wasn't always the case. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2006 : 17:06:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I believe that originally the term Chosen was meant to apply only to the Chosen of Mystra. I believe the intent was to use the word Seraph for that position for any other god, although they would certainly be entitled to choose a special title for their seraphs and call them something else as Mystra had.
Possibly in Ed's FR but there were other Chosen of the other deities in 2e that appeared in Ed's and Steven's sourcebooks. So, this wasn't always the case.
As well as Eric's work -- as the 2e FR Big Deity Three books proved.
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Edited by - The Sage on 07 Oct 2006 17:08:56 |
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Fillow
Master of Realmslore
France
1608 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2008 : 06:09:21
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Not that I recall. In the current Realmslore, a Seraph is still largely just an alternate title for a Chosen.
Whether this will change in 4e FR, is something we, presently, are not aware of.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2008 : 13:39:47
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Considering the loss of deities we're getting in 4E, and the idiotic philosophy that Chosen are a "problem", I don't think there will be Chosen or Seraphs or any other kind of divine champion in 4E. At least not initially. Someone will eventually introduce one for the hell of it, then the Chosen arms race will start again, and then they'll blow up the world again in 5E to fix the "problems" that they, in their lack of understanding of the setting, keep creating. 
Nope, not bitter at all.  |
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Fillow
Master of Realmslore
France
1608 Posts |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2008 : 10:54:35
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| players with really bad dms who use the chosen improperly |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2008 : 11:10:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Fillow
Thanks for that The Sage and Wooly.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
...the ... philosophy that Chosen are a "problem".
Who said that ? the authors-designers-&-editors team ?
Some people have complained for years that the Chosen of Mystra are either Mary Sues, the Justice League of the Realms, or both. And while this isn't true, the fact that TSR and WotC both decided to focus on what should have been background characters perpetuated this myth. With the advent of 4E, the designers decided to listen to the complaints of those who wouldn't play in the Realms anyway, and to cater to them. That's why the Sellplague wipes out Mystra and gets her Chosen out of the picture -- even though, as I've stated elsewhere, killing Mystra should not have any effect on her Chosen. The logic and past canon that back up this point is something that is conveniently being ignored. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 19 Apr 2008 11:12:36 |
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Fillow
Master of Realmslore
France
1608 Posts |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2008 : 01:36:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Fillow
Who said that ? the authors-designers-&-editors team ?
Believe it or not, they did say that in many of their 4E PR statements. The designers either think the Chosen are a problem because of the perception of a loud minority on the internet, or they actually agree with said perception, themselves. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Fillow
Master of Realmslore
France
1608 Posts |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2008 : 11:00:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Fillow
Who said that ? the authors-designers-&-editors team ?
Believe it or not, they did say that in many of their 4E PR statements. The designers either think the Chosen are a problem because of the perception of a loud minority on the internet, or they actually agree with said perception, themselves.
But...why on earth do they believe this? If the Chosen become Mary Sues in a campaign, it's not their fault, it's because the DM is incompetent. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2008 : 16:09:33
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
But...why on earth do they believe this? If the Chosen become Mary Sues in a campaign, it's not their fault, it's because the DM is incompetent.
Because, IMO, the design team of the Realms has all but said that they have lost touch with what makes the Realms the Realms. This I deduced from comments about trying to find a common theme for the Realms, their bashing of much of the racial and cultural diversity of the Realms (for both mortals and deities), their heartfelt need to destroy the Realms so they could rebuild it in their image, and the fact that they have stated that they borrow things from the Realms for their own games (a theme also introduced in much of the 3.5 splat books), but none of them actually run any games in the Realms anymore. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2008 : 16:31:04
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Fillow
Who said that ? the authors-designers-&-editors team ?
Believe it or not, they did say that in many of their 4E PR statements. The designers either think the Chosen are a problem because of the perception of a loud minority on the internet, or they actually agree with said perception, themselves.
But...why on earth do they believe this? If the Chosen become Mary Sues in a campaign, it's not their fault, it's because the DM is incompetent.
Actually, the Mary Sue complaint is that the Chosen are Ed's Mary Sues. The complaint from DMs is usually that the Chosen are the Justice League of the Realms - "What's left for the PCs with this double-handful of powerful folk running around?"
Both complaints are utter crap, but TSR and WotC both decided to shift the focus of the Realms away from smaller quests and little-known adventurers to RSEs and the constant reuse of big name characters. This, more than anything else, has perpetuated these myths.
And thus we get the Sellplague. Rather than acknowledging that they created this perceived problem (perceived mostly by those who don't know and/or dislike the setting) and try something intelligent to resolve it, they instead went the superhero comic route: "Well, we've had three threats to all of humanity, four attempts to take over the world, an interdimensional invasion, and a threat to the entire galaxy this week... We've got to go bigger!" |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2008 : 16:41:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Actually, the Mary Sue complaint is that the Chosen are Ed's Mary Sues. The complaint from DMs is usually that the Chosen are the Justice League of the Realms - "What's left for the PCs with this double-handful of powerful folk running around?"
And Ed's actually commented on this himself, actually, in his replies here at Candlekeep. Khorne, if you're interested, I recommend that you read through those replies -- they'll help to understand Ed's own view on the Chosen.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - The Sage on 21 Apr 2008 16:42:47 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2008 : 17:40:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Fillow
Thanks for information dear Rinonalyrna.
You're welcome. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2008 : 17:41:52
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
But...why on earth do they believe this? If the Chosen become Mary Sues in a campaign, it's not their fault, it's because the DM is incompetent.
And so people (myself included) have argued in vain for years. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Fillow
Master of Realmslore
France
1608 Posts |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2008 : 20:52:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Fillow
*cough*...
What is a Mary Sue ? An English expression ? What does it mean ?
It's one of those terms that is popular in use but has no set definition.
It generally refers to a character that is designed more for the purpose of authorial wish-fulfillment and idealization than actually entertaining the reader. However, note that the term does not always refer to an actual "author stand-in"--I think the true meaning of "Mary Sue" lies in the idealization/perfection side of it.
Here's the Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 21 Apr 2008 20:55:39 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2008 : 20:55:41
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RF covers it nicely. You can get more info from the Wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_sue
Elminster, in particular, is often considered to be Ed's Mary Sue. And unfortunately for those of us that know otherwise, he does share many of the Mary Sue characteristics: incredible magical power and knowledge, he always seems to be at least three steps ahead of everyone, and he gets plenty of female attention. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 21 Apr 2008 21:03:28 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2008 : 16:56:09
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| Those who are destroying the realms are those who know nothing of the realms and its BS that they have the power to do what they are doing!!!!! |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
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What's a Seraph?
... I'm French... You remember ?... 