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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe

Canada
956 Posts

Posted - 12 Oct 2006 :  13:53:27  Show Profile  Visit Kalin Agrivar's Homepage  Click to see Kalin Agrivar's MSN Messenger address Send Kalin Agrivar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Maruluthu Mistrivvin

I was not saying anything about deity provided magic (druids don't need gods and if Imaskari traveled the planes they could have easily aquired services of variety of creatures who can use divine magic or have divine abilities).

And yes I think that there were gods interested in granting magic, they have their own plots, and who knows in which way some of them wanted to influence and manipulate imaskari directly or indirectly. The problem here was in the imaskari. Though I see no logic here, surely the most powerful imaskari were atheists, but did they promote and enforce this idea on all their citizens. If this is true, surely there would be many secret divine cults (that would be logical). Also the imaskari weren't alone in Faerun, what about foreign traders and travelers, also why the assumption that all their slaves were Mulan, what about slaves from other parts of Toril (Jhaamdathan interference here might be interesting) who worshipped other gods ...



Just a reminder that many of the the Netherese were of the same mind..alot of wizards died because they refused divine healing and curing magics...

makes you wonder how hany the "vampiric touch" really was back then (Netheril and Imaskari)...maybe alot of the black necromancy spells that switch over conditions (poison, disease, damage, etc.) were developed due to the refusal to acknowledge the gods

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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 12 Oct 2006 :  17:28:39  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually,

All divine casters on Toril need a patron deity, except for certain amount of times when they are don't have one but sooner or later all divine casters choose a deity(ies) to get their spells from.

So, this list includes rangers, druids, clerics, favored souls, black guards, etc.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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Edited by - Kuje on 12 Oct 2006 17:29:09
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Marc
Senior Scribe

618 Posts

Posted - 12 Oct 2006 :  17:34:14  Show Profile Send Marc a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

Actually,

All divine casters on Toril need a patron deity, except for certain amount of times when they are don't have one but sooner or later all divine casters choose a deity(ies) to get their spells from.

So, this list includes rangers, druids, clerics, favored souls, black guards, etc.



What about Lossarwyn?

.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30283 Posts

Posted - 12 Oct 2006 :  17:35:33  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Maruluthu Mistrivvin

The problem here was in the imaskari. Though I see no logic here, surely the most powerful imaskari were atheists, but did they promote and enforce this idea on all their citizens.


They couldn't have been atheists. It's really hard to build a barrier against and do battle with something if you don't believe it exists. Kinda pointless, too.

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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 12 Oct 2006 :  17:37:03  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Maruluthu Mistrivvin

quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

Actually,

All divine casters on Toril need a patron deity, except for certain amount of times when they are don't have one but sooner or later all divine casters choose a deity(ies) to get their spells from.

So, this list includes rangers, druids, clerics, favored souls, black guards, etc.



What about Lossarwyn?



I'm assuming you are talking about that guy in Champions of Ruin, right?

I asked Ed about this and he said what I said above. At times divine casters can go without a deity for a time, however sooner or later they will have to choose a deity again to get spells. However, there are times when some mortals do not always have deities but these are special events.

It's one of his July 13, 2005 replies.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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Edited by - Kuje on 12 Oct 2006 17:40:42
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Marc
Senior Scribe

618 Posts

Posted - 12 Oct 2006 :  17:39:48  Show Profile Send Marc a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar

Just a reminder that many of the the Netherese were of the same mind..alot of wizards died because they refused divine healing and curing magics...

makes you wonder how hany the "vampiric touch" really was back then (Netheril and Imaskari)...maybe alot of the black necromancy spells that switch over conditions (poison, disease, damage, etc.) were developed due to the refusal to acknowledge the gods



Yes I like the story of Chronomancer

.
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Marc
Senior Scribe

618 Posts

Posted - 12 Oct 2006 :  17:46:10  Show Profile Send Marc a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Maruluthu Mistrivvin

The problem here was in the imaskari. Though I see no logic here, surely the most powerful imaskari were atheists, but did they promote and enforce this idea on all their citizens.


They couldn't have been atheists. It's really hard to build a barrier against and do battle with something if you don't believe it exists. Kinda pointless, too.



Not atheist but you know what I mean, ''Vhostym'' and ''Athar'' type of characters.

@Kuje, allright if Ed has said that though one sentence in the books says that Eldreth Veluuthra has many hopes in druidic magic (as the Seldarine rejects them), so they'll fail in the end.

.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 13 Oct 2006 :  01:40:33  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Maruluthu Mistrivvin

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Maruluthu Mistrivvin

The problem here was in the imaskari. Though I see no logic here, surely the most powerful imaskari were atheists, but did they promote and enforce this idea on all their citizens.


They couldn't have been atheists. It's really hard to build a barrier against and do battle with something if you don't believe it exists. Kinda pointless, too.



Not atheist but you know what I mean, ''Vhostym'' and ''Athar'' type of characters.
I think that claiming the Imaskari to be "Athar-like" may be a little harsh. The Imaskari are said to have a deep distrust of priests and gods, though I doubt they would consider either of them frauds, simply because, as Wooly suggested above, its difficult to do battle against such aspects if you do not truly respect their power. Which is why we see the Imaskari going to great lengths to create spellwards and various arcane traps that will seriously affect divine magic within their cities and realms -- the Imaskari are protecting themselves against the threat and power of the divine and its magic.

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VonRaventheDaring
Learned Scribe

USA
197 Posts

Posted - 13 Oct 2006 :  14:48:48  Show Profile  Visit VonRaventheDaring's Homepage  Send VonRaventheDaring a Yahoo! Message Send VonRaventheDaring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well i voted for Imaskari as well i mean they were the top of their food chain lol however i have to say that its not fair to compair them to elves in general i mean thats an entire race. Thats like compairing all the elven Empires to 1 human empire. reguardless though i perfer the Jhaamdath, and shoon. The imaskari were a bit stuck on themselves, course when you can block gods i guess that happens, now would you call that a god complex?

"Develop the latent abilities within you for that is your power alone. Psionics is the ultimate art of magic and you are its practitioner. Through lifelong dedication, strive to unite your will with your physical form to become one. Only through the unrestrained union of one’s mind and body can the magic of psionics truly be mastered. Throw off the yoke of any who would impose tyranny upon you. Likewise, do not ever force another to submit to your will. Free your mind, free yourself and you have only just begun the path to true psionic mastery. Free others, open their minds to the Invisible Art, and you will show them way to Auppenser."
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe

Canada
956 Posts

Posted - 13 Oct 2006 :  14:56:28  Show Profile  Visit Kalin Agrivar's Homepage  Click to see Kalin Agrivar's MSN Messenger address Send Kalin Agrivar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VonRaventheDaring

Well i voted for Imaskari as well i mean they were the top of their food chain lol however i have to say that its not fair to compair them to elves in general i mean thats an entire race. Thats like compairing all the elven Empires to 1 human empire.


That is a good point...I didn't think of that

Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar

- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand
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Na-Gang
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
348 Posts

Posted - 13 Oct 2006 :  21:43:12  Show Profile  Visit Na-Gang's Homepage Send Na-Gang a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Which Gods were around during the rise of Imaskar? It was thousands of years before Nethril so I'd be reluctant to just go with the Gods worshipped by the Netherese. Was any one God in particular an enemy of or more feared by the Imaskar?
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Marc
Senior Scribe

618 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2006 :  11:20:28  Show Profile Send Marc a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There were old deities like Jergal, Shar, Selune, Chauntea, Talos, Mystryl, Amuantor etc. After the rise of Jhaamdath I think that their pantheon (opposes slavery) must have been feared enemies.

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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe

Germany
657 Posts

Posted - 12 May 2007 :  17:45:58  Show Profile  Visit Ayunken-vanzan's Homepage  Send Ayunken-vanzan an AOL message  Send Ayunken-vanzan an ICQ Message  Click to see Ayunken-vanzan's MSN Messenger address Send Ayunken-vanzan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I voted for Imaskar, not because they were able to defy gods, but because of their extradimensional magic. I bought "Lost Empires" to learn more of the Netheril Empire, in which I was very interested to that time, and then I stumbled over the Imaskar chapter and was stunned. The description of the tower and its surrounding in the little adventure in this chapter is so great. Having learned that there are survivors of this most ancient civilization, I next obtained "Underdark" to read more about Deep Imaskar.

quote:
Deep Imaskari consider buildings in which the interior isn't larger than the exterior a waste of space.

Priceless.

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Ladejarl
Seeker

Norway
55 Posts

Posted - 12 May 2007 :  20:50:20  Show Profile  Visit Ladejarl's Homepage Send Ladejarl a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Imaskar. As the Hamster said, to tell Gods where to stick it.

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warlockco
Master of Realmslore

USA
1695 Posts

Posted - 12 May 2007 :  22:19:11  Show Profile  Visit warlockco's Homepage Send warlockco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Drakul

Cormanthyr gets my vote. I love the Drow. Want to see more of them.



Cormanthyr refers to the nation that Myth Drannor was part of, not the Drow that currently inhabit parts of it.

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warlockco
Master of Realmslore

USA
1695 Posts

Posted - 12 May 2007 :  22:21:19  Show Profile  Visit warlockco's Homepage Send warlockco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Drakul

Cormanthyr gets my vote. I love the Drow. Want to see more of them.



You do know that Cormanthyr refers to Myth Drannor, right?

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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1063 Posts

Posted - 13 May 2007 :  01:56:32  Show Profile  Visit Victor_ograygor's Homepage Send Victor_ograygor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My vote goes to Imaskar

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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader

USA
5402 Posts

Posted - 13 May 2007 :  05:15:07  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I voted for Imaskar as well. Large ancient empire, portals to tons of places including quite a few alternate prime material planes, and the ability to limit the gods influence in the Realms. I know that the Sarukh had the potential to do amazing things, but they never completely dominated their rival creator races, and they tend to fall into the "hey, if it takes a few hundred thousand years to complete our goals, so be it" mindset, which means they act even more slowly than the elves do.

I imagine that they reason they fell prey to a plague is exactly because they had a disdain for the divine. Just like the Netherese fell victim to magic that was pushing the boudaries of what they could actually control. Its a logical, natural reason for such a powerful empire to fall.

"Because philosophy arises from awe, a philosopher is bound in his way to be a lover of myths and poetic fables. Poets and philosophers are alike in being big with wonder."--Saint Thomas Aquinas

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Aravine
Senior Scribe

USA
608 Posts

Posted - 29 Sep 2007 :  22:25:07  Show Profile  Visit Aravine's Homepage Send Aravine a Private Message  Reply with Quote
my character hails from Nethril, so I am a little biased

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Pharaun Mizzrym
Seeker

Canada
34 Posts

Posted - 01 Oct 2007 :  01:12:45  Show Profile  Visit Pharaun Mizzrym's Homepage Send Pharaun Mizzrym a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Pssssh Netheril of course
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore

Germany
1719 Posts

Posted - 01 Oct 2007 :  08:09:00  Show Profile Send Ergdusch a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I really have not a clue as to really truely answer the question. Therefore I voted for my personal favorite - all praise to the stout folk!

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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3338 Posts

Posted - 01 Oct 2007 :  08:18:46  Show Profile  Visit Dalor Darden's Homepage Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I chose Imaskar for several reasons:

I remember reading somewhere that they harnessed a great deal of their magic from study of the Phaerim (sp?) that they had captured? Not sure if that is accurate...but it does come to mind.

Their ability to thwart the Gods was at the top of the list of course.

Their spatial magic is just sweet...reminds me of the D&D cartoon where the kids meet the Celestial Knight who takes them to the tower that was bigger on the inside than on the outside (can't remember that skeletal dudes name).

The Imaskarcana sound really interesting...I would like to see all of them described.

On other topics, I see them perfectly able to use Divine magic without the need of gods. There is a particular prestige class that allows the theft of divine magic for the use of someone who has no divine patron. Its origin is in Greyhawk, but would be fully eligible in the FR since both worlds exist in the "reality" of D&D...especially since El and ol' Mordenkainen so often talked. The Ur Priest would be a way for an Arcane Society to steal magic from gods...and it would fit with the Imaskari abilities to defy the gods by blocking their ability to directly work in mortal society. Anyone else remember this prestige class?


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sirreus
Learned Scribe

USA
118 Posts

Posted - 01 Oct 2007 :  15:33:58  Show Profile  Visit sirreus's Homepage Send sirreus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
netheril floating mountains and karsus. heavy magic and plane shifting an entire city. these guys rocked, and look at halrua today.

"The measure of an undisciplined mind, is that the intellect allows emotion to challenge the observed truth" Richard Baker
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Ateth Istarlin
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
80 Posts

Posted - 02 Oct 2007 :  13:35:21  Show Profile Send Ateth Istarlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I voted for the Imaskari too!
(I'd much rather read about them returning than "the new empire of Netheril").

The more I read about 4FR, the more depressed I am.
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GRYPHON
Senior Scribe

USA
520 Posts

Posted - 02 Dec 2007 :  19:09:26  Show Profile  Visit GRYPHON's Homepage Send GRYPHON a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Aryvandaar and Cormanthyr...

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