| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Dec 2007 : 18:01:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
BTW, the Sarrukh aside, who were the other Creator Races, and which 'modern' races are their descendants/heirs?
Brian gave them on this thread.
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Aearee, Sarrukh, LeShay, Batrachi, Human.
Dragons are not a creator race. Eric Boyd admitted he added that one by mistake.
|
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
|
 |
|
|
Elestar
Acolyte
Hungary
27 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2007 : 19:46:37
|
Imaskar earns my respect - for all the reasons mentioned above, that I don't want to repeat.
Netheril also has had its charm: flying cities are pretty impessive, but the mere presence of the manifastation of their quasimagical powers caused headache and the loss of the immunity to sleep to elves - what I myself find a (tiny) mitigating factor for this Empire's advances.
Instead I would like to express my positive fellings towad Cormanthyr - because that empire was a true wonder to behold (both before and after the Opening). |
Player characers' descriptions
are liked in my Profile
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
#8194;H o u s e #8194; E l e s t a r#8195;
||||||||||||||||||||||||||| |
|
|
|
Shilo99
Seeker
63 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2007 : 14:13:38
|
Yeah, the Imaskari are powerful, nasty...and quite alien (not unlike the Creator Races)
See FR10 for a slightly different take on the Imaskari & their interactions with the ancient gods... |
|
|
|
Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2008 : 20:02:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by Maruluthu Mistrivvin
I'm testing this poll stuff so what do you think which of these civilizations was the most advanced in terms of power (magic, psionics, knowledge, war) if you cannot decide vote for the most interesting.
I vote for Miyeritar.
-I voted for the Imaskari. 
BRIMSTONE  |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
|
|
|
Draezen
Acolyte
25 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2008 : 12:10:35
|
Actually, this is quite hard to say, since most of these empires got some help from other powerful guys.
Aryvandaar, with all their powerful mythals, got some of those secrets from Malkizid.
Netheril got anything they were from the Creator Races.
Imaskar got at least some help from the LeShay, and maybe from some demons, as Darkvision suggests.
So, without counting the Creator Races in, since we just don't know enough about them (except for the Sarrukh), my choice would be either Aryvandaar or Imaskar.
And btw, imo the most impressive thing the Imaskari did wasn't the divine barrier, but the summoning/enslaving of Pandorym (which was one of the most impressive and powerful entities ever seen on Toril, even while it's stats in Elder Evils wouldn't suggest it) |
Realms 4e NPC Characters / Realms 4e Cosmology, Deities, & More
Participate in your own manipulation! |
|
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2008 : 15:45:05
|
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
quote:
Originally posted by Maruluthu Mistrivvin
I'm testing this poll stuff so what do you think which of these civilizations was the most advanced in terms of power (magic, psionics, knowledge, war) if you cannot decide vote for the most interesting.
I vote for Miyeritar.
-I voted for the Imaskari.
BRIMSTONE
after the recent campaign I change the vote from Miyeritar to Imaskar
|
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
|
|
bolf66
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2009 : 01:26:23
|
| imaskari all the way god blocking is pretty cool.... I'm not sure of referance for this but didnt AO personaly have to get involved and go fecth the slave's native gods in the end |
perception is the real truth |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2009 : 02:09:17
|
Pretty much. Ao heard their prayers and summoned Ptah whose faith originated on the home world of the Mulan [supposedly Earth]. Ptah, again acting on Ao's orders, returned to the home world and organised the two relevant pantheons with the intention of expanding their influence into Realmspace to assist their faithful.
It's fully explained in the "Mulhorandi & Untheric Pantheons" chapter of Powers & Pantheons.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
skychrome
Senior Scribe
713 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2009 : 15:02:34
|
I vote for Imaskar as well. I am glad though, they do not exist anymore in the Realms.
Instead they provide the perfect explaination for mysterious and powerful ancient sites left to explore in the realms! And I really feel any fantasy setting always should have a good share of those settings. |
"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625 |
|
|
|
Five_X
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2009 : 01:51:44
|
| Mulhorand FTW! Alright, they aren't the most advanced, but they're way cooler than Imaskaris or Netherese. Imaskar, of course, wins in the technology department though. Poor Mulhorand, why do no novels take place there? |
|
|
|
bolf66
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2009 : 17:56:06
|
| thanks Sage for clearing that up for me now there something I've been wondering about the hole imaskar god ward did that block out mystral too since how do you 1 block the godess of magic and still use magic since she has the ability to prevent anyone from using general magic from anyone including cyric during kelvamore's take over as god of dead.. how did that work |
perception is the real truth |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2009 : 18:34:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by bolf66
thanks Sage for clearing that up for me now there something I've been wondering about the hole imaskar god ward did that block out mystral too since how do you 1 block the godess of magic and still use magic since she has the ability to prevent anyone from using general magic from anyone including cyric during kelvamore's take over as god of dead.. how did that work
Nay, it only blocked the Mulhorandi and Unther deities. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2009 : 18:47:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by bolf66
imaskari all the way god blocking is pretty cool.... I'm not sure of referance for this but didnt AO personaly have to get involved and go fecth the slave's native gods in the end
Yup - the problem was that a religion existed where no gods did, and unlike on other worlds, such things aren't allowed in Realmspace.
Ao didn't have to go far - Ptah already had a presence in Realmspace (thanks to Spelljamming). In fact, I find it strange that Ptah himself hadn't heard the prayers to the Pharoanic Pantheon, which he is a part of. 
The only way that works for me is if Spelljamming hadn't existed in Realmspace prior to -2489 DR. I'm not sure if there is any lore contradicting that, though- Yeoman's Loft discovered Arcane Space in -1064 DR, so that still works. That gives the Mercane and Spelljammers a little over 1400 years to discover Realmspace and Ptah to become active there.
In fact, it might just be easier to look at things in reverse, and assume the sphere was 'discovered' after Ptah was summoned to Realmspace by Ao. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 09 May 2009 18:49:00 |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2009 : 01:11:39
|
quote:
Originally posted by bolf66
thanks Sage for clearing that up for me now there something I've been wondering about the hole imaskar god ward did that block out mystral too since how do you 1 block the godess of magic and still use magic since she has the ability to prevent anyone from using general magic from anyone including cyric during kelvamore's take over as god of dead.. how did that work
What Kuje said.
Note also, that the source I mentioned earlier handles this subject somewhat.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2009 : 01:15:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by bolf66
imaskari all the way god blocking is pretty cool.... I'm not sure of referance for this but didnt AO personaly have to get involved and go fecth the slave's native gods in the end
Yup - the problem was that a religion existed where no gods did, and unlike on other worlds, such things aren't allowed in Realmspace.
Ao didn't have to go far - Ptah already had a presence in Realmspace (thanks to Spelljamming). In fact, I find it strange that Ptah himself hadn't heard the prayers to the Pharoanic Pantheon, which he is a part of.
The only way that works for me is if Spelljamming hadn't existed in Realmspace prior to -2489 DR. I'm not sure if there is any lore contradicting that, though- Yeoman's Loft discovered Arcane Space in -1064 DR, so that still works. That gives the Mercane and Spelljammers a little over 1400 years to discover Realmspace and Ptah to become active there.
In fact, it might just be easier to look at things in reverse, and assume the sphere was 'discovered' after Ptah was summoned to Realmspace by Ao.
Speaking of Ptah, I recall an awesome compilation of info on that particular deity by Tom Costa:-
"On the Eric Boyd board, Ptah was mentioned. Rather than take up that space, I thought I'd post my old efforts in a new space. It's in the 2E format, but I included a 3E update at the tail end. Comments welcome.
Ptah
(The Opener of the Way, the Seeker of Hidden Ways, the Supreme Artisan, Creator of the Universe, He From Whom All Life Emerged)
Lesser (formerly Greater) Power of the Ethereal, LN
Portfolio: Afterlife, ARTS, CRAFTS, creation, creativity, designs, destiny, illumination, insight, inspiration, light, metalworking, space, spelljamming, TRAVEL, WILDSPACE
Artists, artisans, craftsmen, illumination, travelers, Wildspace
Aliases: Seker
Domain Name: Ethereal/wanders
Superiors: Re/Ra (dead in the Realms)
Allies: Sekhmet (unknown in the Realms), Nefertum (unknown in the Realms), Seker (dead in the Realms), Osiris, Thoth, Bast/Sharess
Foes: None
Symbol: A mummified hand held high, palm forward with all but the middle two fingers spread; an Apis (a type of ancient and sacred bull older, mostly used by groundling clergy, and never used in the Realms); a hawk-headed mummy with an ankh in his right hand (Seker)
Wor. Align: Any
Ptah (TAUH) is one of the most ancient of the powers. He predates even Re, but stepped down for the more vital, active power. According to legend, Ptah formed the Prime Material Plane, and the multiverse for that matter, out of the Ethereal and Elemental Planes, and created the Egyptian (Mulhorandi) pantheon of gods. Now, however, he makes his own way as he wanders the Ethereal.
Where Thoth is the god of knowledge and science, Ptah is often viewed as the god of artists and designers. While the two gods have much in common, there are important differences. An architect planning a pyramid depends on Thoth for the mathematics to build it and calls upon Ptah for the inspiration that will make it a work of art. In any case, Ptah is the source of inspiration and creativity, and as such, lovers of art and beauty call upon Ptah. In addition, just as Thoths priests claim that he created the universe (or instructed Ptah to do so to his specifications), so, too, do Ptahs priests exert their claim to the founding waters. However, regardless of the claims of Thoths clergy, it is Ptah that is most commonly called Creator of the Universe.
The powers of Mulhorand and the fallen deities of Unther are ancient in origin and Ptah played a crucial role in bringing them to the Realms. Millennia ago, at the height of the Imaskari Empire, the wizards of that land wielded immense powers and in their pride refused to bow down to any divine entity. When the population of their lands collapsed in a calamitous plague, the godless sorcerers of the empire opened a pair of gates to another world. In a series of lightning raids, they captured countless slaves, brought them back to Abeir-Toril, and then permanently closed all connections between those lands and the Realms. Despite harsh repression from the wizards, the Mulan maintained their faith in the deities of their home world and offered up countless prayers for their salvation and emancipation.
Ao heard their prayers, and summoned the god Ptah, an ancient deity of Wildspace whose faith had originated in the home world of the enslaved peoples, the Mulan, and whose followers had recently discovered Realmspace, the crystal sphere containing Abeir-Toril. At Aos request, Ptah returned to his home world and assembled the two relevant pantheons of that sphere. He explained what had happened to their faithful and conveyed the Mulans prayers for salvation. Ptah then relayed Aos invitation to the two pantheons to extend their sphere of influence into the Realms. Since the Imaskari sorcerers had created an unbreachable magical barrier between the two worlds that denied the entrance of the gods of the Mulan into Realmspace (in a process similar to that employed by the Scepter of the Sorcerer-Kings [described in the ENCYCLOPEDIA MAGICA Volume 3 and the Book of Artifacts]), the only way the pantheons could enter Abeir-Toril was to send avatars through Wildspace accompanied by Ptah. Ptah explained that their avatars would be cut off from their divine essences in the Outer Planes for the foreseeable future, and hence needed to be as powerful as possible if they were to battle the Imaskari wizards.
Both Ra, the head of the family of deities who would become the Mulhorandi pantheon, and Enlil, the patriarch of what would become the Untheric pantheon, agreed to Aos offer, as did many of their divine offspring. (Notably, Enki and his wife Nin-Hursag of the Sumerian pantheon did not enter the Realms, nor did Anubis, Nut, Shu, or Tefnut of the Egyptian pantheon.) Ptah led the gods manifestations through the darkness of Wildspace with a powerful artifact known as the Beacon of Light (described in Volos Guide to All Things Magical).
The two divine families landed on the highest peaks of a range of mountains on the northeastern edge of the Imaskari Empire known today as the Teyla Shan (Godswatch Mountains). There they further divided their remaining divine essences and created lesser, mortal forms of avatars, known incarnations. These incarnations descended into the fertile plain below and went amongst their long-forsaken peoples. The most talented they made priests, and the truly faithful were transformed into divine minion. (Ptah created no manifestation, incarnations, or divine minions, and hence was practically never worshipped by the Mulan. Nevertheless, the Mulan remember him as the founder of the Mulhorandi pantheon and the constructor of the oldest artifacts of great magic still in active use in Mulhorand, the three Chariots of Re.)
Before the overly complacent wizards realized what was occurring, their Mulan slaves rose in open rebellion. Having already expended much of their magic, the godless wizards and the Imaskari Empire quickly collapsed in a conflagration that devastated the land and created much of the Raurin Desert. The manifestations led the shattered remnants of the Mulan westward, into more fertile lands occupied by a people known as the Turami. The Mulan whose ancestors had primarily venerated Re settled with Re and his children on the eastern shore of the Alamber Se where they interbred with the Turami and founded the nation of Mulhorand. Enlil, his family, and their worshipers continued on to the western shores of the Alamber Sea where they founded the nation of Unther.
During the Orcgate War that came centuries after the destruction of the Imaskari, the manifestation of Seker the Lightbringer, a neutral-good lesser power of the afterlife, as well as the god of light, was slain in a mutually destructive battle with the avatar of Yurtrus, the orc god of death and disease. However, before leaving the Realms, Seker passed his power on to his ally, Ptah, and as a result, Ptah added the afterlife, illumination, and light to his portfolio. (In fact, on some worlds, Ptah is seen as an aspect of the tripartite-being much like the elven deity Angharradh Ptah-Seker-Osiris, a composite deity of creation, death, and afterlife.) However, Ptahs commitment to and interest in the Lightbringers small church was less than what it should have been, and he allowed Sekers temples, mostly located among the eroding plains of Raurin, to become covered over by the sands of time and the Raurin Desert. The church eventually devolved into a cult (with most of the faithful turning to Osiris) and then largely disappeared from Abeir-Toril with the church of Ptah taking in many stragglers with the truth of Sekers demise. Today, there are only a handful of cultists (all clerics) who still call upon Seker. In addition to Ptahs absorption of Sekers portfolio, his faithful also include destiny among the lesser aspects of his portfolio.
Aside from Thoth, Ptah remains somewhat aloof from his fellow Egyptian gods, except for his wife, Sekhmet, the lion-headed goddess of vengeance and punishment and the protectress of the righteous; and his son Nefertum, the god of the lotus and unguents, as well as medicine in general. (Much like Nut, Shu, and Tefnut, Sekhmet and Nefertum did not enter Realmspace as many of their fellow powers did.)
Ptah wanders the Ethereal Plane, his faithful believe, due to the Misty Shores relative proximity to the Elemental Planes which are often considered the ultimate sources of creation. This status as a creator god and a traveler god have made Ptah a popular name to invoke for aid and guidance among Ethereal and inner-planar travelers, as well as Wildspace travelers. He is known and worshipped in nearly every known sphere of existence. Moreover, unlike almost all other powers, Ptah is even said to be approachable by mortals. (Though mortals had best tread carefully around the god Ptah seems to feed off the Ethereal, and he can send a mortal literally anywhere in the planes. It has even been suggested that Ptah can drop a being in another gods realm without that powers permission.)
Ptahs Avatar (Mage 25, Cleric 25, Fighter 15)
When Ptah sends his avatar into the world, it normally takes the shape of a powerfully built shaven-headed man with a beard and jet-black skin. However, his avatars form may resemble either a human or dwarf in stature. His eyes reflect the universe and contain the fire of creativity that is the inspiration of all artists. Moreover, Ptah exudes a feeling of strength and power. He is most often portrayed wearing a black skull cap and white skirt.
Ptah is a clever and dynamic god with a great love of art and beauty. He smiles upon craftsmen who produce works of great quality and will sometimes (5%) send his avatar to assure that such persons receive the recognition they deserve.
Ptah can call upon any sphere or schools for his spells.
AC -5; MV 15; HP 199; THAC0 4; #AT 2/1
Dmg 3-60 or special
MR 70%, SZ M (4-7 feet)
STR 15, DEX 20, CON 25, INT 25, WIS 25, CHA 18
Spells P: 13/12/12/12/12/11/5, W: 5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/4
Saves PPDM 2, RSW 3, PP 5, BW 4, Sp 4
Special Att/Def: Ptah is a master of planar travel. His avatar can plane shift any individual to any other plane of existence with but a touch of his hand. While he must make an attack roll (with targets only receiving the magical bonuses of armor and shields to their armor class) to strike his target, the victim is not entitled to a saving throw. He can teleport without error anywhere in the Multiverse with accuracy, and there is no limit to the speed with which he can travel through any medium.
In combat, Ptah fights with the phoenix-headed Scepter of the Gods. This weapon tells its user of the strong points of any enemy faced, is able to nullify one of any type of spell or magical device used against it per melee round, and also hits for 3-60 points of damage per strike.
Ptahs avatar is immune to all damage not caused by spells or magical weapons of +2 or better.
Other Manifestations
Ptah enjoys new ideas and devices. When a being creates a device that is highly useful there is a 5% chance that the god will reward that being with a thet. This chance goes up by 5% if that being is a worshiper of the Ptah and 10% if that being is a priest of Ptah. The thet is an amulet geared to do one of two things: it can project an anti-magic shell around the user which does not effect the users ability to cast spells, or it enables the wearer to become ethereal once a week. In either form, a thet has 2-12 charges.
Ptah is often served by non-chaotic dragons of all sorts, especially blue, green, emerald, sapphire, bronze, silver, and steel. He also sometimes sends shedu to do his bidding and uses hawks (especially sparrow hawks) as messengers. In Wildspace, Ptah sometimes acts through spacesea giants, lumineaux, stellar dragons, and star selkies among other creatures. In addition, many of Ptahs followers see bulls as the holy creation of their god.
On many worlds Ptah is also served by a race of subterranean dwarf-like creatures seemingly made of obsidian often known as Ptahs seekers. They have no head or body hair, but sometimes have wiry, black beards that are greased so that they shine like the rest of their body. They twine these beards up in black wire so that they stick out like extended chins. Even their eyes have no whites in them, but are merely the same shiny black that covers the rest of them. These dwarves have not been seen on Faerūn, though rumors of a tribe of them living on an island to the far southwest of Nimbral have been rumored among some Spelljammers. (More information can be found on these creatures in an article in the February 1994 issue of DRAGON Magazine, Mythic Races of Africa, by Michael John Wybo II.)
The Church
Clergy: Clerics, specialty priests, monks
Clergys Align: Any
Turn Undead: C: Yes, SP: No, Mon: No
Cmnd. Undead: C: No, SP: No, Mon: No
All clergy of Ptah receive religion (Egyptian/Mulhorandi and Wildspace) as a bonus nonweapon proficiency. In addition, all of Ptahs priests are granted major access to the astral and travelers spheres regardless of subclass. Ptahs clerics and monks also benefit from the same spell-casting and level effectiveness within the crystal spheres and among the Planes, as do Ptahs specialty priests (see below).
In crystal spheres where the Egyptian (Mulhorandi) pantheon is worshipped, Ptah is revered as the god of artisans. However, most spelljamming priests of Ptah are spaceborn and look down on their groundling cousins as having lost sight of Ptahs true glory as the creator of the universe. (In addition, it may be that this lack of Ptahs worship by the groundlings of Toril, assisted the Mulhorandi god-kings in keeping their nation, more or less, isolated in the wake of empire until the recent Godswar.) It is because of this aspect of the Ptahs portfolio, that of creator-god, that he has become a popular name to invoke among Ethereal and inner-planar travelers.
Ptah is seen as the source of inspiration, creativity, and creation, and as such, lovers of art and beauty call upon Ptah, as do many healers. Moreover, priests of Ptah are expected to be artists, artisans, and scholars themselves.
Ptahs priests tend to equate Ptah with whatever ruling god they happen to encounter to show that Ptah is the true ruler of the pantheon. In Realmspace, for example, the priests of Ptah proclaim Ao, the overgod of the pantheon of the Realms, as an avatar of their god. Similarly, so to are Odin, Zeus, and Paladine. These proclamations are usually disturbing news to the followers of these gods within their spheres. Thus, while the worshippers of Ptah are pandemic, they are not popular with the established local churches in any of the spheres.
To become an avowed follower of Ptah is extremely easy. Nearly every sphere contains a flock of priests eager to help convert those seeking Ptah. There is a traditionally a small donation (10-20 gp.) for the conversion, although the petitioner may substitute a small handcrafted item made by his own hands.
The Temple of Ptah is open to beings of any race, although Ptahs worshippers are predominately human. Most members of other races who join, especially planewalkers or spelljammers, are viewed as pragmatists taking advantage of the special magical benefits that accrue to the followers of so wide-ranging a god. So long as they make regular donations, however, they are treated as well as any human member.
Ptahs priesthood is made up primarily of specialty priests (75%), with the bulk of its clerics (20%) existing on Prime worlds where the Egyptian pantheon is worshipped (though a few make it to Wildspace). Ptah also sponsors a small order of itinerant monks (5%) who primarily travel through Wildspace and the Inner Planes, never setting foot on the Prime.
Ptahs clergy are known as ptahians. His specialty priests are known as wayfarers due in large part to their extensive traveling throughout the Inner Planes and Wildspace. The itinerant priesthood has a small number of known clerical ranks. In ascending order they are: supplicant, inerrantist, missionary, ingressor, theofarer, demiurge
The faith of Ptah has few steady allies. Outside of Wildspace, the church tends to get along with the clergies of the other established faiths of the Egyptian (Mulhorandi) pantheon, though they have no love for the clergy of Set. In addition, the faith has also developed a relationship with the Planewalkers Guild (see Planescape adventure anthology Tales from the Infinite Staircase). The clergy tend to have very little opinion about most of the major factions of Sigil and the multitude of sects from the Outer Planes. Nevertheless, the faithful generally believe the Athar are dangerously blasphemous, and the Sign of One are almost so, while the Doomguard and Dustmen are simply demented. The ptahians see the Ethereal-based Believers of the Source as rather likable, though the Godsmen dont seem to quite get that Ptah is the ultimate source of the divine they purport to believe in.
While Ptahs clergy has developed few allies outside of those of their gods native pantheon, within Wildspace, they have developed a more complex set of relationships with the other prominent spacefaring organizations (see The Complete Spacefarers Handbook and other Spelljammer sources for more details on these organizations). The Seekers, a group dedicated to knowledge, are in frequent contact with Ptahs priests as their wide access to many spheres makes them a prime source of general knowledge, but the Seekers are justifiably suspicious of the priests information when it turns to theological matters. The Shapers, a spacefaring organization that represents the wizard school of invokers, have supported the priests of Ptah in the past, and there are a number of spaceports where a Shaper monopoly on wizardry is paralleled by a Ptah monopoly on priestly magic. Both groups see themselves as bringing order to the cosmos, and taking the wild out of Wildspace. When the priests of Ptah turn to force as a way of converting recalcitrant peoples, they often employ the Trading Company, a potent mercenary force, as its businesslike attitudes mitigate any conflict with the priests.
On the other hand, while many spacefaring people find the priests of Ptah irritating, few truly hate them. The Pragmatic Order of Thought, a group founded on the ideas that all people deserve liberty of thought and freedom, finds the monochromatic theology of the priests of Ptah stifling, and this has caused some friction over the years, even spilling over into the Orders relationship with the Trading Company. The Xenos, an entirely human organization with a rabid hatred of other races, hate the priests of Ptah (of course, they hate just about anyone) because Ptah accepts demihumans into his priesthood. While the priests of Ptah have verbally attacked the Celestians, worshipers of the Greyspace-based deity Celestian, on theological grounds, the Celestians have only ignored these protestations.
Dogma: The clergy of Ptah are instructed as follows: Ptah gave life to the other gods by means of his heart and his tongue. The conception of thought in the heart and the speech of the tongue determine the action of every limb. Ptahs presence is universal in the heart and mouths of all beings. By pronouncing the identity of everything, the authority of his utterance was such that all creation came into being. Whatever the eyes see, the ears hear and the nose breathes goes straight to the heart and the conclusion reached by the heart is spoken by the tongue. This is how Ptah commanded all the gods into existence and how he became He From Whom All Life Emerged. Ptah is the complete synthesis of mind and the material world. He is the intellectual principle of creation amalgamated with the physical image of life itself. As such, he is superior to all other gods. As a result of this theology, the faithful must honor their god by visiting that which he has created, traveling the Prime, or better yet among Wildspace and the Inner Planes that make up all that is.
There is little in the way of what most would consider morality, good or bad, in the teachings of Ptah. At best, his doctrine could be described as supporting a general benign indifference in regards to such issues.
In addition to the above teachings, one doctrine that remains from the days when Sekers clergy joined Ptahs is a hatred of the undead as unnatural monsters to be destroyed by the light. (Interestingly, Ptah does not grant his specialty priests power over the undead, leading some sages to speculate that Ptah has no true feelings concerning the undead one way or the other).
Day-to-Day Activities: The priests of Ptah are among the most forceful proponents of religion in the Known Spheres and the Planes. They are found throughout the Spelljammer universes, and to a lesser degree among the Inner Planes, preaching the superiority of their god. They are fanatical in their zeal to convert people to the way to Ptah, and use the fact that they can receive their clerical spells in all the spheres to prove the superiority of Ptah over other gods.
Followers of Ptah are expected to assist one another, especially those who travel the planes and crystal spheres. Priests, and even lay members, are also encouraged to find others who wish to join the temple. (Very often, these members establish themselves as intermediaries between new converts and the priests. They collect the temple donations from the members they introduced, and keep 10 percent of the new members donations for themselves. Nonmembers, mindful of Ptahs origins, refer to this as a pyramid scheme.)
Holy Days/Important Ceremonies: Ptahs holy days take place on the new moon every month, during which precious stones are propitiated, especially jade.
For all their dogmatism, the priests of Ptah are surprisingly easy to get along with once you have converted. Members of the temple must donate a small work of art (purchased for 5-10 gp., although works made by the members own hand are preferred) to the temple upon leaving or entering a crystal sphere or plane. This is usually done during brief ceremonies in which the member says good-bye to his old priest and introduces himself to the new ones. Further donations of 1-2 gp. per standard month are also required, but these may be waived if the member is not able to pay.
Major Centers of Worship: The priests of Ptah claim their god created all of the crystal spheres, therefore they have chosen no one spot as a supreme center of worship or headquarters. Nevertheless, his temple on the Rock of Bral among the Tears of Selūne in Realmspace is of great importance to his spelljamming clergy.
Affiliated Orders: Ptah has no official knightly orders. However many planewalkers and spelljammers are dedicated to his name and the spread of his worship.
Ptah does sponsor an itinerant order of monks, the Order of the Hidden Ways. This order is in constant motion, traveling alone or in small groups, and almost never sets foot on a major Prime world, preferring instead to travel among the spheres and the Inner Planes discovering new inspirations to spark their creativity.
Priestly Vestments: Ptahs priests don gray robes trimmed with scarlet. Males shave their heads upon attaining the fourth or higher levels, while the females wear long hair at all times. Land-bound faithful often wear white robes trimmed with black and silver. They also adorn themselves with ornaments of jade. The standard holy symbol of the faith is the ankh (which Ptah is credited with creating).
Adventuring Garb: When expecting battle, priests of Ptah will don armor and black helms, arming themselves as they see appropriate. The most common weapon the faithful train in is the scepter (treat as footmans mace). However, the versatile and unassuming quarterstaff is also a very popular weapon among the followers of Ptah.
Specialty Priests (Wayfarers)
Requirements: Intelligence 16, Wisdom 9
Prime Req.: Intelligence, Wisdom
Alignment: Any
Weapons: Any
Armor: Any
Major Spheres: All, astral, charm, creation, divination, elemental, guardian, healing, numbers, sun, time, travelers
Minor Spheres: Necromantic, summoning
Magical Items: Same as clerics
Req. Profs: Artistic ability, pottery, or another artisan proficiency (with DM approval); direction sense* (any terrain, though often choose planar direction sense) or navigation** (any terrain, though often choose Wildspace or sometimes, phlogiston navigation)
Bonus Profs: Planology* or astrology**; curtain cognizance* or spelljamming**; modern languages (pick two) or survival (any terrain, though most often chosen from one of the Inner Planes, Ethereal Plane, or Wildspace)
* Nonweapon proficiencies generally preferred by planewalking wayfarers.
** Nonweapon proficiencies generally preferred by spelljamming wayfarers.
Note: Several of the variant and new nonweapon proficiencies above are detailed in The Complete Spacefarers Handbook, A Guide to the Ethereal Plane, or The Planewalkers Handbook.
Ptahs priests may be of any race.
Unlike the clergy of most powers, in the Wildspace of any crystal sphere, Ptah can grant his faithful the normal allotment of spells they may cast. However, on the planets within crystal spheres that Ptah is not worshipped, Ptah cannot award spells over the 3rd-level.
In addition, when priests of Ptah enter the phlogiston of Wildspace, they are able to use the spells they had previously prayed for and not yet cast. However, much like the clergy of other powers, wayfarers are cut off from Ptah while in the phlogiston and unable to replenish their spells through prayer until they leave the phlogiston.
Priests of Ptah who are planewalking do not suffer as great a loss of levels as they get farther from the Ethereal as do the priests of other faiths. Priests of Ptah suffer an effective and temporary level loss of one on any of the Outer Planes and no level loss on the Prime Material, Inner, Ethereal, or Astral planes or within Sigil. (See The Planewalkers Handbook, On Hallowed Ground, or the Planescape Campaign Setting for more information on the effects of planar travel on priests.) In addition, priests of Ptah cannot be cut off from their god if they are anywhere on the Ethereal, regardless of whether they are in the Border or Deep Ethereal, or even its numerous demiplanes, including the Demiplane of Dread.
Wayfarers begin at 1st level with a 5% innate magic resistance. They gain an additional +5% per each experience level they gain to a maximum of 50%.
At 1st level, wayfarers may cast detect phase (as the 1st-level wizard spell found in the Wizards Spell Compendium, Vol. I or Players Option: Spells & Magic) or locate portal (as the 2nd-level wizard spell found in the Wizards Spell Compendium, Vol. II or in select Spelljammer products) once per day.
At 3rd level, wayfarers may cast etherealness (as the 3rd-level priest spell found in Players Option: Spells & Magic) or breath of the elements (as the 4th-level priest spell found in The Planewalkers Handbook) once per day.
At 5th level, wayfarers may cast teleport (as the 5th-level wizard spell) or create portal (as the 5th-level wizard spell found in the Wizards Spell Compendium, Vol. I or in select Spelljammer products) once per day.
At 7th level, wayfarers may cast etherealness (as the 6th-level wizard spell found in Wizards Spell Compendium, Vol. II or Players Option: Spells & Magic) or elemental protection (as the 5th-level priest spell found in The Planewalkers Handbook) once per day.
At 10th level, wayfarers may cast teleport without error (as the 7th-level wizard spell) or create major helm (as the 7th-level wizard spell found in the Wizards Spell Compendium, Vol. I or in select Spelljammer products) once per day.
At 13th level, wayfarers may cast elemental breach or sphere of survival (as the 7th-level priest spells found in The Planewalkers Handbook) once per day.
At 15th level, wayfarers may cast plane shift (as the 5th-level priest spell) or create atmosphere (as the 8th-level wizard spell found in the Wizards Spell Compendium, Vol. I or in select Spelljammer products) once per day.
Note: Several of the wayfarers granted powers are not located in the Players Handbook. All of these spell-like powers can be found in the one or more of the following sources: The Planewalkers Handbook, Players Option: Spells & Magic, or the Wizards Spell Compendium volumes.
3E Clerics of Ptah
Alignment: LN
Domains: Craft, Law, Portal, Sun, Travel
Favored Weapons: Scepter of the God (light mace)
Favored Region: Mulhorand, Realmspace
Prayer Time: Night
Multiclass Options: Freely as monk
Ptah Spells
The priesthood of Ptah is reputed to have made priestly variants of many of the wizard spells often used in Wildspace, the Inner Planes, and the Ethereal. Moreover, due to their wide travels, they are also said to have access to many of even the rarest priest spells known across the Multiverse. Consequently, priests of Ptah have access to all the wildspace- and planar-oriented priest spells within their normally allowed accessible spheres as if they were commonly known spells of their faith
References
Much of the information for this entry comes from collating (and blatantly copying) the material in the following sources: Spelljammer AD&D Adventures in Space; The Complete Spacefarers Handbook; Deities & Demigods; DRAGON Magazine (February 1994, Mythic Races of Africa); Encyclopedia Magica, Volume 3; FR10 Old Empires; A Guide to the Ethereal Plane; Legends & Lore; Monstrous Compendium Spelljammer Appendices I and II; On Hallowed Ground; The Planewalkers Handbook; Powers & Pantheons; SJR2 Realmspace; Tales from the Infinite Staircase; Volos Guide to All Things Magical; and Wizards Spell Compendium volumes.
Additional information was also found on the World Wide Web at the following two Internet sites: http://marlowe.wimsey.com/~rshand/streams/scripts/ and http://www.anthro.mankato.msus.edu/egypt/religion/
In addition, many thanks go to Eric Boyd who was very helpful in supplying the Spelljammer source material and other references, as well as for his great work on the Mulhorandi pantheon in Powers & Pantheons." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Lord Necro
Acolyte
18 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2009 : 22:42:02
|
I picked Netheril naturally.
they made flying cities, and that dear sirs, is awesome. |
"Time? time has no meaning to the dead..." ~ Necro Lazerus, Male Moon Elven Shade/Lich.
"Life is but a cloak we wear fleetingly.." ~ Etrius Lazerus, Male Moon Elven Shade. |
|
|
|
sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2009 : 09:30:30
|
magic:
Imaskar
Netheril
psions and war:
jaudoth scuze me for mispelling it.
just war:
Ilthiiri
shoon???
|
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2010 : 22:42:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Necro
I picked Netheril naturally.
they made flying cities, and that dear sirs, is awesome.
Indeed. And the first and the only who had done such.
While they didn't challenge the gods as the Imaskari (well, at least there's one, Karsus), they lived long enough and invented spells others could only dream of.
And correct my perception if it's wrong, but the references in several novels to Netheril (the several spells and artifacts of considerable power, etc...) made me think that it far surpassed Imaskar.
|
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 09 Sep 2010 22:46:23 |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2010 : 23:04:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Maruluthu Mistrivvin
The problem here was in the imaskari. Though I see no logic here, surely the most powerful imaskari were atheists, but did they promote and enforce this idea on all their citizens.
They couldn't have been atheists. It's really hard to build a barrier against and do battle with something if you don't believe it exists. Kinda pointless, too.
If I can touch the table, I don't have to believe in it. It's there, sure, but that doesn't make it something to worship.
It's perfectly possible to be an atheist despite the demonstrated presence of powerful beings that call themselves gods. After all, an Imarscari archmage could easily pass himself off a as a god in front of a primitive tribe.
Who's to say that the beings calling themselves gods are not just more powerful archmages? Monsters? Spirits?
What's stopping a person from not believing in any special divine origin for the so-called gods? For simply believing that they are powerful beings who have discovered a way to gain more power by deceiving mortals into worshipping them? |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
|
|
|
idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 01:09:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Maruluthu Mistrivvin
The problem here was in the imaskari. Though I see no logic here, surely the most powerful imaskari were atheists, but did they promote and enforce this idea on all their citizens.
They couldn't have been atheists. It's really hard to build a barrier against and do battle with something if you don't believe it exists. Kinda pointless, too.
If I can touch the table, I don't have to believe in it. It's there, sure, but that doesn't make it something to worship.
It's perfectly possible to be an atheist despite the demonstrated presence of powerful beings that call themselves gods. After all, an Imarscari archmage could easily pass himself off a as a god in front of a primitive tribe.
Who's to say that the beings calling themselves gods are not just more powerful archmages? Monsters? Spirits?
What's stopping a person from not believing in any special divine origin for the so-called gods? For simply believing that they are powerful beings who have discovered a way to gain more power by deceiving mortals into worshipping them?
Sounds a lot like the philosophy of the Athar from the Planescape setting. That faction, despite living in Sigil and exposed to all the beings of the Multiverse, are "atheists" in the sense that they believe the so called gods worshiped across the planes are nothing more than powerful beings with, essentially, good PR and the willingness to accept the worship of others despite not actually being true gods. If beings living in the midst of Sigil can believe that there's no reason the Imaskari couldn't have the same beliefs, though I don't know enough about them to say whether they believed that or not. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 01:31:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Maruluthu Mistrivvin
The problem here was in the imaskari. Though I see no logic here, surely the most powerful imaskari were atheists, but did they promote and enforce this idea on all their citizens.
They couldn't have been atheists. It's really hard to build a barrier against and do battle with something if you don't believe it exists. Kinda pointless, too.
If I can touch the table, I don't have to believe in it. It's there, sure, but that doesn't make it something to worship.
It's perfectly possible to be an atheist despite the demonstrated presence of powerful beings that call themselves gods. After all, an Imarscari archmage could easily pass himself off a as a god in front of a primitive tribe.
Who's to say that the beings calling themselves gods are not just more powerful archmages? Monsters? Spirits?
What's stopping a person from not believing in any special divine origin for the so-called gods? For simply believing that they are powerful beings who have discovered a way to gain more power by deceiving mortals into worshipping them?
It depends which branch of knowledge you're more inclined to believe. In philosophy and logic, an atheist is one who does NOT believe in the existence of a god. Period. But sociology has a different notion of an atheist: he/she who has only an idea of a god but does not believe that that god is a supreme being, the creator of all things, and the origin of life. If you prefer the former, then you cannot say that the Imaskari are atheists. But if it's the latter you're comfortable believing in, then you can safely say that the Imaskari are indeed atheists.
|
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 01:45:17
|
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Maruluthu Mistrivvin
The problem here was in the imaskari. Though I see no logic here, surely the most powerful imaskari were atheists, but did they promote and enforce this idea on all their citizens.
They couldn't have been atheists. It's really hard to build a barrier against and do battle with something if you don't believe it exists. Kinda pointless, too.
If I can touch the table, I don't have to believe in it. It's there, sure, but that doesn't make it something to worship.
It's perfectly possible to be an atheist despite the demonstrated presence of powerful beings that call themselves gods. After all, an Imarscari archmage could easily pass himself off a as a god in front of a primitive tribe.
Who's to say that the beings calling themselves gods are not just more powerful archmages? Monsters? Spirits?
What's stopping a person from not believing in any special divine origin for the so-called gods? For simply believing that they are powerful beings who have discovered a way to gain more power by deceiving mortals into worshipping them?
I've long reasoned that the Imaskari were likely agnostic... to a degree, and that they were a rather ambitious lot when trying to ensure such a mindset came to represent their thinking on religious matters for an entire race.
So, instead, the barrier was constructed and instituted as form of insurance, against something that *may* exist.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 01:54:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
It depends which branch of knowledge you're more inclined to believe. In philosophy and logic, an atheist is one who does NOT believe in the existence of a god. Period. But sociology has a different notion of an atheist: he/she who has only an idea of a god but does not believe that that god is a supreme being, the creator of all things, and the origin of life. If you prefer the former, then you cannot say that the Imaskari are atheists. But if it's the latter you're comfortable believing in, then you can safely say that the Imaskari are indeed atheists.
Actually, my argument did not depend on this distinction.
It depended, instead, on the rejection of the unproven premise that God = Anyone who says he is a god and is more powerful than you are.
If the Imarskari don't believe that the fact that deities have more powers than dragons or archmages makes them in any way fundamentally different from them, they don't have to believe in Gods just because some extraplanar creatures are more powerful than others.
Remember, the original distinction of atheist/agnostic depended upon the definition of God as the Prime Mover. The Imarskari don't have to accept that any self-proclaimed deities actually fit the bill for that. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
Edited by - Icelander on 10 Sep 2010 01:55:25 |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 02:07:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Remember, the original distinction of atheist/agnostic depended upon the definition of God as the Prime Mover. The Imarskari don't have to accept that any self-proclaimed deities actually fit the bill for that.
I was actually relying more on William Kingdon Clifford's thinking on agnosticism. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 03:06:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I was actually relying more on William Kingdon Clifford's thinking on agnosticism.
He was a follower of Huxley and would be familiar with the original definition.
Of course. But his later "insufficient evidence" and "indeterminism" claims are generally what I use to support my thinking of the religious observances of the Imaskari. They tend to fit the model of the Imaskari belief system somewhat more appropriately, I think. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 04:37:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Maruluthu Mistrivvin
The problem here was in the imaskari. Though I see no logic here, surely the most powerful imaskari were atheists, but did they promote and enforce this idea on all their citizens.
They couldn't have been atheists. It's really hard to build a barrier against and do battle with something if you don't believe it exists. Kinda pointless, too.
If I can touch the table, I don't have to believe in it. It's there, sure, but that doesn't make it something to worship.
It's perfectly possible to be an atheist despite the demonstrated presence of powerful beings that call themselves gods. After all, an Imarscari archmage could easily pass himself off a as a god in front of a primitive tribe.
Who's to say that the beings calling themselves gods are not just more powerful archmages? Monsters? Spirits?
What's stopping a person from not believing in any special divine origin for the so-called gods? For simply believing that they are powerful beings who have discovered a way to gain more power by deceiving mortals into worshipping them?
I've long reasoned that the Imaskari were likely agnostic... to a degree, and that they were a rather ambitious lot when trying to ensure such a mindset came to represent their thinking on religious matters for an entire race.
So, instead, the barrier was constructed and instituted as form of insurance, against something that *may* exist.
Agnostic: one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god. I don't think the Imaskari fit this definition. They believed in gods, hence the barrier. But they did not think that gods superseded them in any way; that the gods governed them (Prime Mover); that they were created by gods.
The possibility alone that such divine entities exist, as you suggest, negates the very premise of agnosticism.
So what is my stand on the Imaskari's religious outlook/disposition? They are *still* theists, but to a very limited extent, for they acknowledged the existence of the gods yet denied that such entities were omniscient and omnipotent.
|
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 05:44:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Maruluthu Mistrivvin
The problem here was in the imaskari. Though I see no logic here, surely the most powerful imaskari were atheists, but did they promote and enforce this idea on all their citizens.
They couldn't have been atheists. It's really hard to build a barrier against and do battle with something if you don't believe it exists. Kinda pointless, too.
If I can touch the table, I don't have to believe in it. It's there, sure, but that doesn't make it something to worship.
It's perfectly possible to be an atheist despite the demonstrated presence of powerful beings that call themselves gods. After all, an Imarscari archmage could easily pass himself off a as a god in front of a primitive tribe.
Who's to say that the beings calling themselves gods are not just more powerful archmages? Monsters? Spirits?
What's stopping a person from not believing in any special divine origin for the so-called gods? For simply believing that they are powerful beings who have discovered a way to gain more power by deceiving mortals into worshipping them?
I've long reasoned that the Imaskari were likely agnostic... to a degree, and that they were a rather ambitious lot when trying to ensure such a mindset came to represent their thinking on religious matters for an entire race.
So, instead, the barrier was constructed and instituted as form of insurance, against something that *may* exist.
Agnostic: one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god. I don't think the Imaskari fit this definition. They believed in gods, hence the barrier. But they did not think that gods superseded them in any way; that the gods governed them (Prime Mover); that they were created by gods.
The possibility alone that such divine entities exist, as you suggest, negates the very premise of agnosticism.
The Imaskari, as I noted early, would seem to fit more effectively into the categorised "indeterminism" of the gods, as Clifford speaks of in some of his lectures. They may have believed in what could typically be called "gods," but they certainly didn't see them as the "be all end all" of divine reality. I believe some Imaskari saw the barrier, as it was constructed, as a means of supporting that belief. A true deity would be able to breach the barrier. They weren't committing themselves to either the reality or unreality of the gods. Rather, they were guarding against what may be seen as gods in the eyes of others. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 17:34:21
|
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Agnostic: one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god. I don't think the Imaskari fit this definition. They believed in gods, hence the barrier. But they did not think that gods superseded them in any way; that the gods governed them (Prime Mover); that they were created by gods.
The possibility alone that such divine entities exist, as you suggest, negates the very premise of agnosticism.
So what is my stand on the Imaskari's religious outlook/disposition? They are *still* theists, but to a very limited extent, for they acknowledged the existence of the gods yet denied that such entities were omniscient and omnipotent.
You're still confused on the definition of 'God or a god'. There is no logical reason to conflate belief in supernatural powerful planar beings in a fantasy world with the religious convinction that these beings are in any way divine.
The Imarskari could believe, with perfect logic, either of the following:
a) These powerful beings are not Gods, but Gods may or may not exist.
b) These powerful beings are not Gods and it is impossible to have true knowledge about the existence of Gods.
They could also believe two other possibiliites, with less immaculate logic, but it is sufficient for many real people:
c) These powerful beings are not Gods and there is no such thing as a God.
d) These powerful beings are Gods, but we don't like them and won't follow them.
Of these, b represent true agnosticism. Option a is close enough so that many people are content to call it agnosticism. Option c is atheism.
We can't exclude any of the above on the basis that the Imarskari built a wall designed to keep out powerful planar beings that gained power from the worship of mortals. The fact that they were aware of the existence of such beings does not imply that such beings fit their definition of what the term 'God' represents. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Lost Empires of Faerun
