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Walls
Acolyte
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30 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Jul 2007 : 18:20:05
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I am not exactly sure why so many contends Monks are a "Far East" thing? This isn't earth. Who says people didn't learn to kick and punch on their own. This is a planet with a long human (and demihuman) history. It would NOT be out of the question to have developed such studies. Hell... they developed magic.
Look at pyramids on earth. Are they a strictly Egyptian thing? Hardly. Parallel development exists in all facets of earth culture, why can't this overstep planes of existence? |
Edited by - Walls on 28 Jul 2007 18:22:14 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2007 : 01:59:18
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| Good points. It isn't written in stone that monks have to be orientalized, although they often seemed to be paired with "oriental" weapons. It's true that Toril does not equal earth, but it can be hard to stop thinking about Asia when monks are associated with the kama and ki. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2007 : 02:40:42
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| But I could really picture the Jordain as "monks" in the D&D sense, even though they felt very naturally extrapolated from FR lore. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2007 : 02:57:56
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
But I could really picture the Jordain as "monks" in the D&D sense...
Yes, they sort of were. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2007 : 23:45:02
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The F&A monks, i.e. low-powered clerics using "martial arts" (= not that many weapons), might well have worked. The new-style Shaolin versions don't fit as well though. The FRCS says that this tradition only appeared "recently" within the Western Realms, yet in Underdark we have a drow monastery led by a monk 18!
Well, if they are called weaponless-fighters and use psionics (like the soulknife) to power their abilities, fair enough. The Shaolin-based Asian style, well, not for me. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2007 : 09:31:59
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Everyone has their own idea of high-fantasy and this has often led to some interesting discussions among my own gaming group. But lets face it, early D&D (and early Forgotten Realms) was strongly influenced by European folklore and Tolkien as major reference points.
Still fantasy is just that and some people can expand it to include everything from overly long-eared elves (Record of Lodoss War) to Laser Guns (Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, or even Krull  ).
The 1st ed. Monk class was a based not just from myths of Shaolin, but other Chinese mythology and folklore (Journey to the West, Water Margin) and many of the Shaw films of Hong Kong Cinema.
While I have in fact met a few individuals who do indeed train at the now popular Shaolin Temples (the original was burned down) and go on tour with various shows, their actual abilities come no closer to those listed on the pages of 1st or 3rd edition books than say David Copperfield comes to falling in line with abilities of a Mage.
The D&D monk goes beyond simply a mere old soldier now seeking faith as we can see in characters such as Cadderly, William of Baskerville, or Friar Tuck. But there again priests in the shows featuring these characters were not casting healing spells or other divine magics either.
So I guess it really is just a question of how much of your disbelief can you (or your players) suspend. For me, in a place as diverse as the realms I have no problem with monastic orders (and their abilities) in the western realms. This is due in part because I can see magic as being as much a facilitator of exchange (i.e. globalization) as technology has been for us in our real world. 
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Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2007 : 20:01:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Walls
I am not exactly sure why so many contends Monks are a "Far East" thing? This isn't earth. Who says people didn't learn to kick and punch on their own. This is a planet with a long human (and demihuman) history. It would NOT be out of the question to have developed such studies. Hell... they developed magic.
Look at pyramids on earth. Are they a strictly Egyptian thing? Hardly. Parallel development exists in all facets of earth culture, why can't this overstep planes of existence?
Exactly.
I used to hate Monks when I first encountered them in 1e, but then I read the stuff about the Scarlet Brotherhood in Greyhawk and it all made sense.
Monks follow a TRADITION, a VERY disciplined tradition, and are always tied to some 'belief'. That belief does NOT have to be religious, but usually is. The belief could be in 'freedom' (like the Brazilian guys, who couldn't carry weapons), or as in the case of the Scarlet Brotherhood, they believe in racial purity. The Eldreth Veluuthra would be PERFECT candidates for an order based on that principle. As long as you have a strict code of conduct for an order, the rules can be based around ANY sort of dogma.
That being said, just about EVERY early group had types of martial arts. Amerinds practiced wrestling, the Norse had an art of catching an enemiy's weapons and throwing them back, the whirling Dervishes of the near east, the Celts had a fighting style where they threw spears with their FEET... you get the idea. Even our D&D barbarian has it's roots in the Berserker traditions of the norse - where every man belonged to a certain 'lodge' and had secret rites and rituals to help make them better fighters. They went into combat un-armored, and even chewed on a shield in order to help 'focus' their abilities (Ki?). Consider them the Chaotic equivalent to the Monk.
Don't let your predjudices taint how you you perceive D&D Monks, because you will be denying yourself a fun and enriching part of the game. Also, all of this talk of 'European' type monks - I still can't find Europe on any of MY FR maps. 
The core Monks are just one type, and it would be nice to see an FR version similar to what they did over in GH. I will be looking forward to the article on Dwarven Monks - given the small spaces the Dwarves often must fight in, a dexterity-based un-armored style of fighting weaponless is a no-brainer.
Coming Next: Hin Jitzu! 
PS: Just came across an old reference to a hidden city of Monks somewhere north of Cormyr. It's considered a legend - but still..... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Aug 2007 20:04:28 |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 19:46:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Monks of Oghma and Deneir could probably be mistaken for Catholic monks when it comes to their day to day activities
D'accord, but let's make that medieval Catholic monks, shall we? There are still monkish orders in today's world, but most of them bear little resemblance to their medieval ancestors. To be even more specific, I would compare Ogmanites and Deneirath to Benedictine monks (think Name of the Rose), and Ilmateri monks would be comparable to Franciscans. I would compare Tyrian and Helmite monks to Dominicans (think: the "Holy Office," a.k.a. the Inquisition). There are several deities who might have Jesuitical-type monks, whose goal is to subborn the world through teaching that the dogma of their deity is the only correct dogma and all else is heresy or blasphemy.
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 20:00:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Monks were big in Europe in the Middle Ages. As inspirations I think of The Name of the Rose and the Cadfael episodes of Mystery for you PBS watchers. Then of course there was Friar Tuck of Robin Hood's band of merry men; he was always portrayed as kind of a brawler.
Now, true, fighting prowess was not something you generally associate with European monks, but in a fantasy world of secluded monasteries beset by orcs and evil warlords and dragons, it is only natural that monks would need to develop some skills to defend themselves.
IIRC, Friar Tuck always seemed to use a beer stein as his monk weapon. I am surprised that D&D monks have not developed some other unique fighting styles. I would love to see dwarven monks who used battle steins and manouevers such as blinding spray, flaming spit take and belch of thunder. Even if they just used some style based on hammers, I think dwarven monks could be very, very cool. 
One might wish to consult Fighting Techniques of the Ancient World (3000 B.C. to 500 A.D.): Equipment, Combat Skills, and Tactics by Simon Anglim, Rob S. Rice, Phyllis Jestice, and Scott Rusch, Fighting Techniques of the Medieval World: Equipment, Combat Skills and Tactics by Matthew Bennett, Jim Bradbury, Kelly DeVries, Iain Dickie, Phyllis Jestice, and Fighting Techniques of the Early Modern World: Equipment, Combat Skills, and Tactics by Christer Jorgensen, Matthew Bennett, Michael Pavkovic , Rob S. Rice, Frederick S. Schneid, Chris Scott.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 20:23:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Monks were big in Europe in the Middle Ages. As inspirations I think of The Name of the Rose and the Cadfael episodes of Mystery for you PBS watchers. Then of course there was Friar Tuck of Robin Hood's band of merry men; he was always portrayed as kind of a brawler.
Now, true, fighting prowess was not something you generally associate with European monks, but in a fantasy world of secluded monasteries beset by orcs and evil warlords and dragons, it is only natural that monks would need to develop some skills to defend themselves.
IIRC, Friar Tuck always seemed to use a beer stein as his monk weapon. I am surprised that D&D monks have not developed some other unique fighting styles. I would love to see dwarven monks who used battle steins and manouevers such as blinding spray, flaming spit take and belch of thunder. Even if they just used some style based on hammers, I think dwarven monks could be very, very cool.
One might wish to consult Fighting Techniques of the Ancient World (3000 B.C. to 500 A.D.): Equipment, Combat Skills, and Tactics by Simon Anglim, Rob S. Rice, Phyllis Jestice, and Scott Rusch, Fighting Techniques of the Medieval World: Equipment, Combat Skills and Tactics by Matthew Bennett, Jim Bradbury, Kelly DeVries, Iain Dickie, Phyllis Jestice, and Fighting Techniques of the Early Modern World: Equipment, Combat Skills, and Tactics by Christer Jorgensen, Matthew Bennett, Michael Pavkovic , Rob S. Rice, Frederick S. Schneid, Chris Scott, or simply run a search on Amazon.com for "Medieval fighting" to find quite a few books (including translations of genuine medieval fighting manuals).
European soldiers didn't just swing swords, they kicked, punched, bashed their opponent's with their sword pommels, tripped them with polearms, etc. -- all "monkish" techniques.
I am surprised that no one has brought up (or did I miss it?) the Shou Disciple class from Unapproachable East. They use "Oriental" fighting techniques as lay martial artists, not as monks. They are also hopelessly outclassed in combat by Fighters with armor and swords or bows!
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Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2007 : 19:10:54
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I continue with book suggestions:
Personally, I own a copy of The Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe, by Sydney Anglo, which contains a very informative plate on pp. 195-196. It provides contemporary illustrations of "the ten ways ... for an unarmed man to deal with a dagger attack." Dating from 1674, it depicts wrist locks, a shoulder throw, kicks indistinguishable from those used in karate, and -- of course, as number one! -- a plain old straight punch to the face (a technique used in almost every martial art around the world and throughout history).
Finally, let it not be forgotten that Wizards of the Coast have published a novel of the "iconic" monk, Ember (of PHB fame), Oath of Nerull, by "T.H. Lain." Lest anyone be dismayed at the thought of reading a "T.H. Lain" book, know that "T.H. Lain" is just a "house" pseudonym used by WotC for their "iconic character" series of novels -- Bruce R. Cordell wrote this one. I just got it and haven't read it yet, but it's safe to say that it is probably one of the best insights into how Wizards of the Coast thinks that monks ought to be integrated into a fantasy campaign with more typical medieval-flavored characters, Nebbin, Hennet, etc. (Nebin's last name, we also learn, is "Raulnor").
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Kou_Ayshane
Acolyte
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2007 : 04:33:17
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... I always just figured (Mostly inspired by the scenes of Danica's study in the Edificant Library in TCQ.) that the introduction of martial arts (And therefore, monks.) in Faerun is mostly akin to the introduction of Eastern martial arts in the Western world, i.e. students (And to a much lesser extent, masters.) from the East coming over and teaching on the Western shores.
Now obviously it wouldn't become as commercialized as it has in our modern world, or as dangerous the original teachers in our world had to face, but given the faiths of the realms my best guess would be it was passed thru family lines (Father to son and so on.) after the family relocating to Faerun from Kara-Tur.
After some generations are born, they have melded their faith to the Faerunian pantheon and some of the more zealous create temples of learning devoted to their chosed Diety, as well as those that have chronicaled their training in writ to pass on to generations to come. (I.E. The tome that Danica finds in the EL.) |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2007 : 19:55:04
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There was also a "Class" article in Dragon Magazine about European monks which was very, very well done.
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Monks in Faerūn
