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Bugoron_Bearfang
Acolyte
Canada
16 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 15:26:25
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I looked for a topic thread about this and couldn't find one, but I may have simply missed it.
From all sources available, can one say that bards do or do not follow gods, on average? I've been reading a fellow on another board say that A) Bards cannot follow evil deities and B) Bards -should- not be devout to only one god.
Does anyone see any relevence in this? I, for one, do not.
Thanks for your time!
Bugoron
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 15:28:29
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| Well, bards worship Oghma and Finder, and maybe a few others, as for not being able to worship evil deities, there is a drow bard PrC somewhere and they do worship Lolth... they prolly sound like Cradle of Filth LOL |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Bugoron_Bearfang
Acolyte
Canada
16 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 15:31:02
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| So there's really nothing saying, then, that a bard couldn't follow whichever deity they wanted, am I right? |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 15:33:34
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| I'd say so, however, I'd check with the GM and also let common sense/Realmslore rule... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Bugoron_Bearfang
Acolyte
Canada
16 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 15:35:59
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| Wonderful, thanks for your help. ^_^ |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
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Mazrim_Taim
Learned Scribe
341 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 15:54:06
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| I don't see any reason to not allow evil bards that worship evil deities. I think everyone assumes all bards are good or neutral because of the Harpers. |
And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood
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Edited by - Mazrim_Taim on 11 Jul 2006 15:56:42 |
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Bluenose
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
134 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 16:01:32
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| The bard in my current game is a Bbn1/Brd6/WarChanter1 and goes into melee screaming the name of Tempus. :-) |
These, in the day when heaven was falling,
The hour when earth's foundations fled,
Followed their mercenary calling
And took their wages and are dead.
Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned, these defended,
And saved the sum of things for pay. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 16:11:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Mazrim_Taim
I think everyone assumes all bards are good or neutral because of the Harpers.
What about heavy metal Guitarists?  |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 16:31:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
quote:
Originally posted by Mazrim_Taim
I think everyone assumes all bards are good or neutral because of the Harpers.
What about heavy metal Guitarists?
It might be in Spellfire where Storm tells someone off for getting confused between the Harpers (organisation) and harpists (the players).
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 16:57:14
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Well,
In FR, unless the character/NPC is insane, everyone worships at least some of the deities, however since bards aren't divine casters they usually don't have a patron deity.
The deities in FR are active and everyone knows they exist so it'll be pretty weird to not at least give a prayer/some words to the deities. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 17:02:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
...as for not being able to worship evil deities, there is a drow bard PrC somewhere and they do worship Lolth
We also have the "evil" composer mentioned in Richard Lee Byers contribution to the Halls of Stormweather anthology -- 'Song of Chaos' -- who likely worshipped an evil-aligned deity as well. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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Mazrim_Taim
Learned Scribe
341 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 17:16:45
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| Is going to start putting evil bards in all his campaigns because they obviously don't get enough atttention |
And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 17:43:23
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Evil Bards can make good villains. Remember that many of their powers are enchantment effects that influences the weaker mind. Plus they can gather hordes of followers of all castes in society.
They might not have the flashy fire power of Wizards, the undead control of Clerics or the monster control abilities. But they can control Wizards and Clerics to do that for them. They do have both versions of the Geas spell to hit people with, along with the Charm, Suggestion and Dominate schools of spells.
Think about it!
Naughty thought for the day:
Perform checks are needed for Bardic 'Music' abilities, but any performance will do. Including dancing. So basically, a bard could do a striptease to inspire courage, competence, greatness or various suggestions/mass suggestions.
Think about that! |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
Edited by - Foxhelm on 11 Jul 2006 17:46:01 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 17:45:05
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| Named bards tend to be under represented in the lore and evil ones even more so. Out of the canon named 130ish bards from 1e and 2e only five of them are evil. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 17:58:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
Naughty thought for the day:
Perform checks are needed for Bardic 'Music' abilities, but any performance will do. Including dancing. So basically, a bard could do a striptease to inspire courage, competence, greatness or various suggestions/mass suggestions.
Think about that!
Indeed! Men watching an attractive female bard doing a striptease would be highly susceptible to any suggestions she might make... and that's before she uses any bardic abilities!    |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 18:17:51
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| There's a good example of an evil bard in Ghostwalker as well. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 00:15:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Bugoron_Bearfang
So there's really nothing saying, then, that a bard couldn't follow whichever deity they wanted, am I right?
Yeah, it's hard to say "what's average", besides that the typical bard probably worships the deities of knowledge. I say go with what fits the character. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 00:20:45
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| And song/art, probably. Things that deal with expression in all forms, since what separates bards from sages is the fact that bards like to express and perform what they've learned. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 00:23:25
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
And song/art, probably. Things that deal with expression in all forms, since what separates bards from sages is the fact that bards like to express and perform what they've learned. :)
Well, yes--all those deities are partners. :) Oghma, Deneir, Milill...I think of song as a form of knowledge, but you domake a good point.
Also, my bardic characters tend to be quite fond of Tymora. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 00:26:07
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Ah, one always needs some luck to impress the crowd, eh? Not everyone will like every performance, no matter how "good" it is.. So there's nothing wrong with a bit of good luck to grease the axels, so to speak.
Ack, car talk! |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 00:48:07
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Ah, one always needs some luck to impress the crowd, eh? Not everyone will like every performance, no matter how "good" it is.. So there's nothing wrong with a bit of good luck to grease the axels, so to speak.
Ack, car talk!
Heh. And adventuring bards need luck even more. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 01:40:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
Evil Bards can make good villains. Remember that many of their powers are enchantment effects that influences the weaker mind. Plus they can gather hordes of followers of all castes in society.
Indeed.
I suggest any scribe with an interest in the portrayal of an "evil" bard, reads through the Song of Chaos short story I referenced above.
The musical composition of the evil composer's works demonstrates what perversely-inspired music can do to both people and their surroundings -- especially when the music itself is infused with magic.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Akryn
Acolyte
Finland
14 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 11:16:59
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
...as for not being able to worship evil deities, there is a drow bard PrC somewhere and they do worship Lolth
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In Windwalker there was a drow bard (who was definitely evil to the core) and if i remember correctly he was called a "Deathsinger" or something like that. I for one would like to see the stats for this prestige class, because he was one of the most interesting characters in the book.. imho :D I dont think it was mentioned that he worshipped Lolth but i took that for granted.. |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 19:22:42
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Dirgesinger? The PRC in Question is in Libris Mortis, and its nifty.
Personally, im playing a Bard right now who's a Singer/Dancer, and worships Lliira mainly, along with others (Mystra for her spells, Oghma, Lathander etc)
Bards could worship any gods, really. |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 20:24:51
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The very first villian in the players of my campaign had to face was a Bard. Actually it was a Harper and they loved him and trusted him fully. Oh, how they loved that Person. He was smart, charming, had so many magic items and knew so much. But boy, should have seen their faces turning pale when they figured out that he was playing on them....... but only due to an evil artifact currupting his mind. Did not save his live in the end.
As for Bards worshipping Gods - sure why should they not. Even though their arcane abilities are not connected to a divine power that does not mean that bards don't pray to one God or the other now and then - no matter if good or evil. |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 20:46:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Doesn't Halisstra have bard levels?
Yes she does, 8 in total matter-of-fact. So says Dragon magazine #322 at least.... |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 22:51:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Akryn
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
...as for not being able to worship evil deities, there is a drow bard PrC somewhere and they do worship Lolth
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In Windwalker there was a drow bard (who was definitely evil to the core) and if i remember correctly he was called a "Deathsinger" or something like that. I for one would like to see the stats for this prestige class, because he was one of the most interesting characters in the book.. imho :D I dont think it was mentioned that he worshipped Lolth but i took that for granted..
It's been a while--a long while--since I read Windwalker, but didn't those drow (including the bard) follow Vhaeraun?
But in any case, I see no reason why a bard couldn't worship Lolth, if that was desired. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 05:48:06
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Basically, we know of two bardic traditions among the drow. The first (Deathsingers?) was the bardic tradition in the Starlight and Shadows books, where a drow bard witnesses a death so that they can sing of it to belittle the loser and talk (sing?) up the winner, so like anything else in drow society, its a social climbing exercise. While the drow in question worshiped Vhearaun (or at least travelled with drow that did), I don't know if this tradition is limited to Vhearaunites.
The other order (Baelquesh?), are basically bards that sing the praises of Lolth in her temples and learn the standard bardic tricks of the trade.
The interesting thing about the latter is the fact that Elaine mentioned in the Magehound that Lolth actually absorbed the essense of an Ilythiiri woman that learned the song of the unseele and was obsessed with spiders, and she was known as the Spider Queen, a title that Lolth now uses. Somewhere in there is a great plot hook to connect drow bards to the unseelie and the original Ilythiiri Spider Queen. |
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Torkael
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 08:17:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
Naughty thought for the day:
Perform checks are needed for Bardic 'Music' abilities, but any performance will do. Including dancing. So basically, a bard could do a striptease to inspire courage, competence, greatness or various suggestions/mass suggestions.
Think about that!
A bard worshipping Sharess somehow springs to mind when I read that. |
"No, I will not create a song dedicated to dancing dwarves. Especially dwarves worshipping Eilistraee." - Tenasa the bard |
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Bards and the gods
