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MaskedOne
Acolyte
42 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Apr 2006 : 04:17:45
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| Whatever works to get him there and be a reasonable storyline. I just want to see how the magelords react to him. I'd specifically enjoy seeing him interacting with Zalathorm but I'm not all that picky. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2006 : 04:50:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
quote:
Originally posted by MaskedOne
I don't know about Evermeet but I'd love to see Elminster in Halruaa for a little while.
Nice idea, El in Halruaa to combat the growing Sharran Shadow Weave power.
Except Elminster isn't a direct action kinda guy... If he was in Halruaa, I think he'd be very visible doing minor things, while some adventurers he had railroaded into helping persuaded to help him were running around doing the real work in the background.
And said real work would likely involve killing Shadow Weave users... I can't see El asking for a few dozen (or more!) mages to be assassinated... |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2006 : 07:57:21
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Well that's not necessarily a bad sort of book actually. Plenty of stories have been made about characters who solely used their wits (especially wizards) to bring about the end of their foes rather than big titanic spellbattles.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Chataro
Learned Scribe
Singapore
114 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2006 : 10:27:12
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| We can always hope, anyway while RAS won't be able to get a good grasp of the other characters. I think the other authors won't have too much a hard time. Best author in my opinion to do it would probably be Elaine Cunningham Co with perhaps J novak |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2006 : 15:33:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Of course, also Denning
Considering the way he dumbed down other people's characters in Return of the Archwizards so his own can look better, and the way he keeps shoehorning his pet characters into novels, I'd really hope he never ever touches EC's characters. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2006 : 20:04:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Of course, also Denning
Considering the way he dumbed down other people's characters in Return of the Archwizards so his own can look better, and the way he keeps shoehorning his pet characters into novels, I'd really hope he never ever touches EC's characters.
Indeed. The main reason I can't stand the RotA trilogy is because of the way his white hats were the only ones able to do the right thing, while established characters that we know to be intelligent, powerful, and/or wise enough to forsee the consequences of their actions managed to not just do the wrong thing, but to do the absolute worst thing they could possibly do. |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2006 : 12:48:30
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quote:
Originally posted by monch9
Now that I saw Ed's list of swordsmen. The only one that I was surprised to see would be Meathrammar Aerasume. So apparently Ed's take on this character is NOT the Fighter/Mage that was statted out in the WOTC website.
Monch
I haven't seen the stats on WoTC website, but being a fighter/mage has its advantages (=spells to boost your combat abilities  ). I would hazard a guess that Ed probably has a completely different take on a LOT of FR characters. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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silvermage
Seeker
77 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2006 : 01:42:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Of course, also Denning
Considering the way he dumbed down other people's characters in Return of the Archwizards so his own can look better, and the way he keeps shoehorning his pet characters into novels, I'd really hope he never ever touches EC's characters.
I don't think we can blame Troy for all the wrongs in the RotA which I think is quite unfair to Troy Denning. I think he didn't want to write like that, for one needs permission from say eg: RAS and Ed, to touch or use their characters. I think it is more likely orders came down from WotC High Command that it should be written like that. I am sure Troy didn't want to downplay any of the realm's famous characters. If not, I think it is to show that the established realm characters are not infallible or superperfect in every way, afterall these characters are mortals, not gods or titans. |
Edited by - silvermage on 10 Apr 2006 01:44:44 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2006 : 04:03:05
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quote:
Originally posted by silvermage
I don't think we can blame Troy for all the wrongs in the RotA which I think is quite unfair to Troy Denning. I think he didn't want to write like that, for one needs permission from say eg: RAS and Ed, to touch or use their characters. I think it is more likely orders came down from WotC High Command that it should be written like that. I am sure Troy didn't want to downplay any of the realm's famous characters. If not, I think it is to show that the established realm characters are not infallible or superperfect in every way, afterall these characters are mortals, not gods or titans.
No offense, but I seriously doubt that Troy was told that anyone that wasn't his character had to act like an idiot. Why would they tell him that?
Yeah, established character are not infallible. But we know from past experience that they are smarter and wiser than they acted in the trilogy. If it was only one character that did that, I might could buy it. But every single white hat other than his own went out of their way to do the worst thing they possibly could. Once is a fluke. An entire trilogy where the only people that can act intelligently are his guys? Nope, can't buy it. |
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silvermage
Seeker
77 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2006 : 02:29:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
No offense, but I seriously doubt that Troy was told that anyone that wasn't his character had to act like an idiot. Why would they tell him that?
I am not sure how the WotC High Command Office works, their decision making processes and what they are thinking and their chain of command but I am very sure that no WotC product goes approved without their nod and that they are very aware of whats going on throughout the WotC and the market even if they do not wish to admit it. I am sure they already knew that some characters would act like idiots and not all-be it the author or fans- would like it. If the High Com doesn't like it, they would had informed the author to rechange it, if the High Com approves, then the novel gets on the road. I am sure the WotC High Com knows, analyzes, makes and call the shots.
quote:
Yeah, established character are not infallible. But we know from past experience that they are smarter and wiser than they acted in the trilogy. If it was only one character that did that, I might could buy it. But every single white hat other than his own went out of their way to do the worst thing they possibly could. Once is a fluke. An entire trilogy where the only people that can act intelligently are his guys? Nope, can't buy it.
Not even the wisest and the most experienced can foresee the future nor foresee the consequences of their actions. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2006 : 02:37:22
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quote:
Originally posted by silvermage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
No offense, but I seriously doubt that Troy was told that anyone that wasn't his character had to act like an idiot. Why would they tell him that?
I am not sure how the WotC High Command Office works, their decision making processes and what they are thinking and their chain of command but I am very sure that no WotC product goes approved without their nod and that they are very aware of whats going on throughout the WotC and the market even if they do not wish to admit it. I am sure they already knew that some characters would act like idiots and not all-be it the author or fans- would like it. If the High Com doesn't like it, they would had informed the author to rechange it, if the High Com approves, then the novel gets on the road. I am sure the WotC High Com knows, analyzes, makes and call the shots.
And if 3E has shown us anything, it's that they are more than willing to chuck years of established Realmslore out the window for no better reason than "Eh, I wanted more evil people there, so I made this formerly good NPC be evil."
quote:
Originally posted by silvermage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertYeah, established character are not infallible. But we know from past experience that they are smarter and wiser than they acted in the trilogy. If it was only one character that did that, I might could buy it. But every single white hat other than his own went out of their way to do the worst thing they possibly could. Once is a fluke. An entire trilogy where the only people that can act intelligently are his guys? Nope, can't buy it.
Not even the wisest and the most experienced can foresee the future nor foresee the consequences of their actions.
And I can agree with that. But I will again reiterate my complaint: only Troy's characters were making intelligent decisions. If the character was not created by Troy, then they did exactly the worst thing they could -- often while being advised against it by one of his white hats. Once or twice is a fluke. Every single non-Troy character? Nope, that is far beyond a fluke. That was a deliberate move. |
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silvermage
Seeker
77 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2006 : 03:29:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertYeah, established character are not infallible. But we know from past experience that they are smarter and wiser than they acted in the trilogy. If it was only one character that did that, I might could buy it. But every single white hat other than his own went out of their way to do the worst thing they possibly could. Once is a fluke. An entire trilogy where the only people that can act intelligently are his guys? Nope, can't buy it.
That's what I call a revolutionary change from the established bueracratic procedures. More creativity, flexibility, freedom and outrageous imagination allowed.
quote:
And I can agree with that. But I will again reiterate my complaint: only Troy's characters were making intelligent decisions. If the character was not created by Troy, then they did exactly the worst thing they could -- often while being advised against it by one of his white hats. Once or twice is a fluke. Every single non-Troy character? Nope, that is far beyond a fluke. That was a deliberate move.
From my perspective, I can agree with with you to a certain resonable extent. I know there were scenes where the Chosen defered to Galeron about the phaerimm and how to strike the phaerimm or strike Shade Enclave. Well as Galeron was the only one survivor who had the deep knowledge of the phaerimm and since the Chosen had only surface knowledge of the phaerimm, for all their superpower and knowledge, and on the field of battle where the strongest and ruthless survive, it is obviously wise to defer to someone who has knowledge of the enemy rather than throw one weight around.
Also, the Chosen don't know much about the Sharn Wall and the ancient enemy that sleeps within the Sharn Wall. If they did, the phaerimm would had been walloped and booted across the multiverse. The Chosen were like the Netherese, proud and near-omnipotent, when the phaerimm arrived, they turned into novices as they know nothing of the enemy but at least the Chosen and Netherese learned something: Humility.
Against an unknown enemy who suddenly pops in with swashbuckling, butt kicking and supermagic powers, naturally decisions made in war against the enemy would always lead to blunders especially by those in command and supposedly the wisest who believe they know all the hazards and dangers of war and are the only ones who can pull the stunt off, but this is the only way to understand the enemy, for war is no fastway thing and even the most powerful learns humility in such trials by fire. Even the most powerful Netherese Arcanists supposedly rich in arcane experience were humbled by the enemy in the first few days of war and they know dolt about the phaerimm. Same logic applies to the Chosen.
Khelben only interacted with the phaerimm once before the Evereska saga and cannot be assumed to be worldy wise in the ways of the phaerimm. Afterall, knowledge in the books and one time experience don't apply in the battlefied because the enemy can evolve, adapt and change their ways once they know their ways are the main factor behind their defeat, it is continuous engagement and a open-observant mind that applies in the battlefield, not previous experience nor wisdom for they play a small role only in general battle tactics, but against a specific unknown enemy with no availabale combat intelligence data, such experience are minuscule things.
That's why Melegaunt had to spend a century under the phaerimm noses to study and analyze and obtain Grade A up to date phaerimm combat data and that's why Shade are so desperate to kidnap Galeron as they know the value of uptodate combat data.
The soldiers who fight on the field such as Galeron and Vala and Takiri, all have first-hand experience, knows the pain and hardship of war, they had seen death in the face of the enemy and the first to know humility and understand their limits unlike officers who sit in safety. It is always through seeing death in the face of the enemy does one knows how small one is despite previous experience and wisdom in previous wars as such things don't apply to an new enemy and that war is constantly changing and evolving, hence past experience and wisdom applies little.
It is through first-hand experience and constant engagements with the phaerimm in close-quarter combat, seen the enemy in action close-hand than do they know the truth and face of the enemy and based on these experiences make effective decisions to fight the enemy, afterall soldiers are the best advisors. |
Edited by - silvermage on 11 Apr 2006 03:31:57 |
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MaskedOne
Acolyte
42 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2006 : 04:01:06
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I should note that while I'm not fond of Denning's handling of other NPCs. He did not make a point of maintaining them as idiots completely throughout the series. On more than one occasion, his characters are sitting there thinking the iconics are either treacherous or idiots right up until they figure out the reasoning behind the motives of said characters. The Chosen may have been blundering and learning new things about the Phaerimm and the Shadovar but the white hats Denning used spent time learning lessons about power, life and diplomacy that royals and the Chosen have known for quite some time.
As of matter of preference, I'd prefer Denning be kept away from the Chosen of Mystra, several other iconic characters and high level NPCs and far away from massive Toril altering data. He writes well but I'm left irritated with him and the book whenever he handles another author's characters or basic concepts of a given setting. I'm still annoyed about Melegaunt and the split Weave theory that half the world seems to think accurate.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2006 : 06:11:32
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Come on, now... Inexperience with a particular enemy can only explain so much, especially considering that we were essentially talking about spellcasters -- and the Chosen of Mystra have been dealing with unknown enemy spellcasters for centuries. This includes such groups as the Malaugrym, Zhents, Red Wizards, and oh yeah, any of the phaerimm hanging out in Myth Drannor.
Further, anyone with half a brain is going to say "Oh, hey, I don't know this enemy, but this guy giving me advice does know them. I should listen!" And yet, this did not happen, repeatedly.
And how to we explain the actions of the Lords of Waterdeep? How did they suddenly become idiots? Your explanations don't work for his dumbing down of characters like Brian the Swordmaster and Piergeiron. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2006 : 06:19:34
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quote:
Originally posted by silvermage
That's what I call a revolutionary change from the established bueracratic procedures. More creativity, flexibility, freedom and outrageous imagination allowed.
You consider the Chosen -- particularly Elminster and some of the Seven Sisters -- "bureaucratic"?
What books have you been reading? |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2006 : 06:41:51
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My main problem was that essentially the Chosen were acting like an adventuring party that had popped acid honestly. Elminster's solution to dealing with the Phaerimm in Everveska? Kill Phaerimm in Myth Drannor. How do we sneak into the City of Shade? We sneak in through a Stone Giant's stomach. How do the Chosen, monarchs of many nations and leaders of a vast network of adventures, help Everveska? We kill the foes ourselves and utterly avoid raising armies or other business.
I especially like the insanity that no one thinks of EVACUATING Everveska largely in the wake of the crisis.
I didn't think the non-Denning characters were particularly badly written by comparison Wooley Rupert because I didn't see that the heroes of the series were any better. Take for instance our Elf Sorcerer/Ranger lead? He accepts the power of the Shadow Weave from an obviously dangerously unstable individual with uncertain intentions....whom is the BEST of the lot. He turns against his friends. Betrays everyone around him and generally acts like an utter orc. His human love interest follows him around like a puppy despite his abusive attitude.
There's something wrong when MALIK is the most normal and rational. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2006 : 06:52:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Betrays everyone around him and generally acts like an utter orc.
Now, now. There's no call to insult orcs everywhere. D: |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
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Chataro
Learned Scribe
Singapore
114 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2006 : 12:40:51
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yup, i haven't read RoTA yet but if what u all say is true, then troy denning has done something really unbelievable. Thats something like saying that a single guy has a better idea than the entire goverment officials on how to run the country.
Now for another pressing issue, has j novak written anymore FR novels? |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2006 : 16:48:59
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| I honestly liked the series. while not the best the realms has to offer, they were not too bad. Yes the chosen were not characterized as well as they should of. I do believe storm and one of her sisters started with a raised army, but was basically wiped out upon reaching evereska. I would not discourage anyone from reading any novel, check it out for your self first, then make the call. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2006 : 17:07:44
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
I would not discourage anyone from reading any novel,
I would!
Of course, I do offer the caveat that some people quite like the trilogy.  |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2006 : 17:35:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Chataro
Now for another pressing issue, has j novak written anymore FR novels?
Not lately, no. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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silvermage
Seeker
77 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2006 : 07:37:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Chataro
yup, i haven't read RoTA yet but if what u all say is true, then troy denning has done something really unbelievable. Thats something like saying that a single guy has a better idea than the entire goverment officials on how to run the country.
Hey....don't simply miss this great trilogy based on our comments, every reader has a different perspective and view of the books they read. Just keep an open and relaxed mind, and read the trilogy, you will learn to enjoy reading the RotA trilogy. Trust me, don't miss it.
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You consider the Chosen -- particularly Elminster and some of the Seven Sisters -- "bureaucratic"?
What books have you been reading?
"What books have I been reading?" An impressive comment but i will pass it off this time.
If the Chosen are truly heroic enough and straightforward, they would not had sent underlings through a chain of command -like one go find this man X and then he will tell you to find man Z etc-to do the dying and killing while they sit back and enjoy the scenery. Troy did justice to those innocents the Chosen sent off to die, by forcing the Chosen to fight like common soldiers and learn humility, not sit behind and relax.
quote:
Elminster's solution to dealing with the Phaerimm in Everveska? Kill Phaerimm in Myth Drannor
Actually it was Shade Enclave assassins who killed phaerimm in Myth Drannor and then left pipeweed smoke and leafs so as to frame Elminister as the assassin responsible for the job. This was confessed by Telamont to Galeron in Book 2 of The RotA.
quote:
How do we sneak into the City of Shade? We sneak in through a Stone Giant's stomach.
The city's outer defenses are formidable , the guards and commanders of Shade smarter since Galeron's stunt of leaving the enclave and stealth is high priority in such black-ops operations, as a person who had been in the Special Forces for a long time, I understand the need for Stealth and if it is the best Stealth means available, one have no choice but to take it.
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How do the Chosen, monarchs of many nations and leaders of a vast network of adventures, help Everveska? We kill the foes ourselves and utterly avoid raising armies or other business
The Chosen, monarchs and leaders are simply believing and having too much pride in their armies to deal with the phaerimm for they had no grade-A combat data on the phaerimm and simply refused to co-operate with the Shadovar, and simply in favor of tested traditional military techniques to do the job, of course, naturally lead to thousands of deaths that can be avoided.
The monarchs later could not sponsor anymore armies due to lack of funds and the Chosen go and kill phaerimm themselves? That's where they committed the sin of pride by believing themselves capable of handling the ancient foes with no grade A combat data.
quote:
Come on, now... Inexperience with a particular enemy can only explain so much, especially considering that we were essentially talking about spellcasters -- and the Chosen of Mystra have been dealing with unknown enemy spellcasters for centuries. This includes such groups as the Malaugrym, Zhents, Red Wizards, and oh yeah, any of the phaerimm hanging out in Myth Drannor.
Really? the Chosen weren't there during the fatal wars between Netheril and the Phaerimm, the Chosen weren't there (if the phaerimm origins rumors are true) when the Phaerimm came into being during the Imaskari Empire time. Well, when the Chosen dealt with the example:, Zhents, Red Wizards, the Chosen simply had the advantage of a few centuries/decades worth of arcane knowledge over a bunch of novices who had only minutes to study and since the enemy is open knowledge and seen easily, of course, self-explanatory actions. And also, such spellcasters are of the same race as the Chosen, and one can use common habits and weaknesses such as sin of pride and arrogance to truimph over a foe who is of the same racial origin as them.
But the Phaerimm, Malaugrym and Sharn are ancient creatures of ancient magic and of different races with different racial characteristics and different behaviors unlike humans and varies between them. The Chosen weren't there when massive spellwars were waged by mortals against them and they had never seen the enemy in action. They only know through books and bard tales, even so, they only regard them as myths and don't prepare for them as they were not facing a immediate threat from them and if they were to prepare war spells against every ancient foe, I think the Chosen would be too distracted by basic desires to do that.
But these foes have been living far longer than the Chosen and they got all the time in the world to focus on one thing-arcane magic without being distracted by other useless things. The Phaerimm were locked in the Sharn Wall and they had about 1000 years worth of time to think, review, understand their defeat and develop new war spells without being hindered by distractions. These foes had access and had casted ancient powerful war spells that even Khelben was stunned by it(mentioned in Book 1 of RotA when Khelben silently admitted he had never seen such war spells)and such spells that even the Chosen simply would not cast based on moral reasons(hence the Chosen caught at an disadvantage).
Also, these foes were not open-knowledge and widely known and encounters were not regular(not like the Zhents and Red Wizards) and constant so nobody knows how to defeat them or much less think of defeating them as "nobody want to go round chasing shadows", hence with the exception of Melegaunt, there is no combat data available for the Chosen to employ. When the Phaerimm suddenly popped in, the Chosen were caught pants down naturally. Even Elminister can't face down a bunch of Phaerimm when they came knocking, for all their vaunted power and experience, the Chosen like everyone were caught pants down because there is no knowledge about them. It was only through trial and error and teeth-gritting perseverance that they start to learn about the unknown enemy, for wars against an unknown enemy is no freeway and cakewalk even when one is very experienced in dealing with ancient foes.
quote:
Further, anyone with half a brain is going to say "Oh, hey, I don't know this enemy, but this guy giving me advice does know them. I should listen!" And yet, this did not happen, repeatedly.
That will create a dependency habit and lessen the image of the character. Furthermore, they don't open their mouths to ask and so no answers were given if they don't ask. Since the heroes wanted to temper themselves against the unknown foe, naturally no answers or advice were given to them.
quote:
And how to we explain the actions of the Lords of Waterdeep? How did they suddenly become idiots? Your explanations don't work for his dumbing down of characters like Brian the Swordmaster and Piergeiron.
The Lords of Waterdeep Became sudden idiots? Because they simply allow their distrust, pride and know-all attitude to blind them and make themselves the fools because they think they are experienced enough and know all about war and the enemy compared to some time-lost ancient relic(the Shadovar) who don't know what happened years after the Fall of Netheril. Brian don't like the Shadovar assuming command of the field because he thinks the Shadovar is thinking very low of the non-Shadovar when the Shadovar is simply trying to avert the Netheril war disasters from happening to them and simply thinks their knowledge of the phaerimm equals arrogance and contempt for the non-Shadovar who have good amount of war experience and war capabilities-which in actual fact won't save them from the Phaerimm.
Brian was thinking that the Waterdhavian war experience means they should be allowed in the battlefield and not pushed around by the Shadovar when the Shadovar were in fact trying to save themslves from themselves.
Also, who knows Brian might be secretly jealous of the Shadovar superior anti-Phaerimm darkswords and magic when even common enchanted weapons don't work and allowing this jealousy to cloud his view of the Shadovar, and Brian is simply petty against the Shadovar because Prince Aglarel could read past their magic helms and that the Shadovar were simply too stingy with secrets when the Shadovar were trying to keep confidential war secrets from unseen spies.
Also the Lords who are mages simply outright distrust the Non-Weave users -the Shadovar-just because they were secretly unhappy that there are Non-Weave users around and that they cannot get past or read the Non-Weave users magic and spellwork when they had tons of experience and wisdom in the arcane. Sin of Pride.
Piergeiron did not act the fool but simply was bound by bueracratic restrictions because of his position but he still managed to pull his role off well enough and too amazed or stunned by the Shadovar to wonder whether to trust them or not because his peers say they can't be trusted. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2006 : 08:02:48
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quote:
If the Chosen are truly heroic enough and straightforward, they would not had sent underlings through a chain of command -like one go find this man X and then he will tell you to find man Z etc-to do the dying and killing while they sit back and enjoy the scenery. Troy did justice to those innocents the Chosen sent off to die, by forcing the Chosen to fight like common soldiers and learn humility, not sit behind and relax.
All I can think of is how wasted their talents were. Elminster's magic is utterly and completely insignificant to the benefits of his wisdom. 'Common' soldiers fulfill a vital function and I admire a General willing to fight with his troops but the fact remains that Elminster and company would do FAR more good to have stayed out of the fight and commanded. It's why the Chosen Need adventurers. They're planners not doers.
The whole point of Elminster is he's a cantakerous old man who sends adventurers on quests. He INSPIRED that cliche.
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Actually it was Shade Enclave assassins who killed phaerimm in Myth Drannor and then left pipeweed smoke and leafs so as to frame Elminister as the assassin responsible for the job. This was confessed by Telamont to Galeron in Book 2 of The RotA.
Hmmm...that makes sense and I must have missed that. I didn't care for the story that much. One of the Archwizards few plots that seem to be that intelligent.
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Also, these foes were not open-knowledge and widely known and encounters were not regular(not like the Zhents and Red Wizards) and constant so nobody knows how to defeat them or much less think of defeating them as "nobody want to go round chasing shadows", hence with the exception of Melegaunt, there is no combat data available for the Chosen to employ. When the Phaerimm suddenly popped in, the Chosen were caught pants down naturally. Even Elminister can't face down a bunch of Phaerimm when they came knocking, for all their vaunted power and experience, the Chosen like everyone were caught pants down because there is no knowledge about them. It was only through trial and error and teeth-gritting perseverance that they start to learn about the unknown enemy, for wars against an unknown enemy is no freeway and cakewalk even when one is very experienced in dealing with ancient foes.
The whole point is that the Chosen do not place their immensley important lives at risk and threaten to plunge the entire continent into Civil War? With Khelben then Waterdeep will fall, ditto Simbul and Agarlarond, etc etc etc.
They have SPELLS and BOOKS to handle getting information on the Phaerimm. You do not go against an unknown foe spellblasting them. Why is that no one plays Elminster as possibly the greatest scholar in the Realms? He's Sage First, Wizard Second.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 12 Apr 2006 08:08:28 |
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silvermage
Seeker
77 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2006 : 09:45:21
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All I can think of is how wasted their talents were. Elminster's magic is utterly and completely insignificant to the benefits of his wisdom. 'Common' soldiers fulfill a vital function and I admire a General willing to fight with his troops but the fact remains that Elminster and company would do FAR more good to have stayed out of the fight and commanded. It's why the Chosen Need adventurers. They're planners not doers.
The whole point of Elminster is he's a cantakerous old man who sends adventurers on quests. He INSPIRED that cliche.
If the Chosen can value their lives, then why can't they value the lives of other "non-immortal" mortals? They sure should had understand the loss of family and friends, if they do, they should do something about it.
Afterall, the Chosen are equally mortal like every mortal and they have no divine mandate to order their fellow mortal lives about as though their lives are waste paper.
Through such bueracratic procedures, they can avoid responsibility and obtain free meat shields to deflect potential blows.
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They have SPELLS and BOOKS to handle getting information on the Phaerimm. You do not go against an unknown foe spellblasting them. Why is that no one plays Elminster as possibly the greatest scholar in the Realms? He's Sage First, Wizard Second.
If Elminister is so great as a scholar and wizard as he really is, surely he can walk straight past the Dead Wall of the Phaerimm, publish anti-phaerimm spells and distribute to the masses and smash an phaerimm encounter with one spell and lastly know what Melegaunt is casting out of his mouth.
There had been a common assumption that books and scrolls provides the best information about the enemy. Actually, it is a fatal point of view that leads to the grave.
In war, I myself being a former, real combat-tested, professional black-ops soldier knows through the hard way that what is recorded in the books does not help you 100% or help you greatly on the battlefield as books and scrolls don't apply much on the battlefield.
Grade A Combat data cannot be gleamed from just reading books and papers for information is not static and is constantly changing. Up-to-date Combat Data must be bought through blood and effort, and accurate true combat data obtained by first-hand experience are always the best and sure way to win the war and who knows those books in the Chosen bookshelfs may had been written by the enemy just to fool any reader into believing the lies. Also, information can be outdated very easily with new information coming in.
If Shade knows everything about the Phaerimm, why send Melegaunt, a Shade Prince under the Phaerimm very noses to obtain up-to-date correct combat data when they can just use their magic to scry and divine the phaerimm habits? That why combat data obtained from reconnaisance, observation and first-hand experience is more valuable and more accurate than reading century-old information which can be outdated.
Lastly, like what I said, the Phaerimm are sentient creatures and not stupid, they can evolve and change their ways to adapt to new combat environments and new threats. A good example is that the phaerimm knew they are vulnerable to shades during their first experience with shades, and they quickly develop new prismatic light spells to deal with shades. This implies they are not stupid, and given 1000 years worth of isolation gives them time to develop new war spells, analyze and change their ways to avoid defeat.
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2006 : 10:40:58
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If the Chosen can value their lives, then why can't they value the lives of other "non-immortal" mortals? They sure should had understand the loss of family and friends, if they do, they should do something about it.
Afterall, the Chosen are equally mortal like every mortal and they have no divine mandate to order their fellow mortal lives about as though their lives are waste paper.
Through such bueracratic procedures, they can avoid responsibility and obtain free meat shields to deflect potential blows.
Certainly they understand the loss of life. They also appreciate no doubt that human beings are people who need to fight their own battles to progress as a society, that more lives will be saved as them as teachers/leaders/advisors than they ever could as commandoes, and also that their role is far work to be fonts of knowledge then soldiers.
To make an example, Alexander the Great is better as a leader than soldier even if he's a great solider. If Patton had died on a scouting mission then the Allied War effort would collapse. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 12 Apr 2006 10:42:32 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2006 : 11:33:58
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So, Silvermage, what you're saying is:
1)That having centuries of experience at battling unknown foes did not at all prepare the Chosen to fight yet another unknown foe, one that they have had ample opportunity to encounter, since some lived right next door...
2)The Chosen, who have always battled to help the common man, apparently now don't care about them...
3)Ignoring the advice of experienced people now is something characters known for their wisdom and intelligence can't do... It apparently diminishes their own wisdom, intelligence and experience to actually use these things...
4)And people who rule a large diverse city, one where they have to deal with a huge variety of people, races, and intrigues, are too stupid to know not to let their pride get in the way.
If any of these things are true, why is it that we're only seeing them in this one trilogy? And why is it that these things oh-so-conveniently make the author's own characters look better?
As I said before: once or twice, I can accept as a fluke, because people do make mistakes. When every single non-Denning character goes out of their way to do the wrong thing, acting in ways that go against years of established Realmslore and ignoring what they know is hard-earned experience, then it becomes unbelievable.
I went into this trilogy excited about seeing a Netherese city come back. I couldn't wait to read these books. I had the open mind you say is necessary. And the author didn't just let me down, he massively let me down. Obviously, everyone is going to have different opinions. I just can't see how his deliberate mishandling of established characters can be defended. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2006 : 12:26:45
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Originally posted by silvermage
tl;dr blather babble blah blah
Uhm, whatever your analysis of the Chosen as portrayed in the RotA trilogy is irrelevant. The whole point is that Troy Denning portrayed them so out-of-character it's not even funny, thus rendering your criticism of the characters' behavior invalid -- they aren't acting like how they would act, had the story been written by say, Ed Greenwood. |
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silvermage
Seeker
77 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2006 : 12:58:22
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1)That having centuries of experience at battling unknown foes did not at all prepare the Chosen to fight yet another unknown foe, one that they have had ample opportunity to encounter, since some lived right next door...
Every unknown foe is totally different from the previous one they faced, there is no foe that is similar or identical to the previous one. Example: A enemy from the Far Realm can simply walk up to their door and introduce himself and the Chosen caught pants down again because there is no lore about this creature and this creature comes from don't know where and previous powerful spells that worked don't work now.
If the Chosen had known about the Sharn Wall and the ancient enemy it guards and readied themselves for the phaerimm and walloped the phaerimm a long time ago. Also, the Phaerimm in Myth Drannor and the Phaerimm in the Sharn Wall are different. The Phaerimm in Myth Drannor are content to sleep in their magic zone and live life while occassionally fighting off the curious intruder and since they rarely wander out of their comfort zone to kill, why disturb them when they don't disturb you?
The Phaerimm in the Sharn Wall are different, they were defeated and humiliated and they don't like it and eager to prove their superiority again and while starved of magic. They didn't idle away, but spent time reviewing why are they defeated that led them to this prison and what would happen if they don't change and improve their attack strategy and spells, this anyone of the right mind would had done while imprisoned.
Like I said, if the Chosen were to cram their minds with spells against every ancient enemy because they are going to knock soon, the Chosen will not do it as they simply don't want to go round chasing shadows. Why cram the mind with spells when the enemy is not so immediate and so far away?
Experience at fighting unknown foes serves to strengthen the spirit and mind, but doesn't mean that effective snap and wise decisions can be made because based on experience alone. If every foe were to be dealt like that, it would be too easy on the Chosen and how are the Chosen going to improve themselves?
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2)The Chosen, who have always battled to help the common man, apparently now don't care about them.
If they really cared about the elves in Evereska and the mythal, El and all the Chosen could had raced straight to Evereska and try combining their mighty power to burn a hole in the Dead Wall-which Khelben said can be burned through with Silverfire. And they know that the enemy is very powerful in magic, and they had not seen fit to properly equip and arm the common soldiers against the phaerimm and not waste their lives against an enemy which they know initially that spells and common melee and ranged weapons cannot penetrate.
Even Laeral snubbed her army's complains and welfare.
El was too concerned about a Shadow Weave user running around than helping to fight the phaerimm which was the biggest threat to the realms. What about Shandril? He could had given her a powerful teleport spell and sent her on her way to Silverymoon straight rather than letting her risk her life on the road or ordering some Knight to go on a merry round chase which he knew they cannot arrive on time to save. Same applies for Alustriel, she just express temporary regret when she could had done something more for the dying dwarves at Nesme and concerning Shandril, why not teleport to Shadowdale and take her straight to Silverymoon?
Khelben simply ordered troops to charge into a killing field when their spellshields were cancelled or had no spellshields and only expressed temporary remorse when some Harper agent got killed and some troops got killed by his orders. Even wasted inexperienced young elven soldiers' lives by ordering a mass charge, he should had wondered why he phaerimm never got their mindslaves out on the field to serve as meatshields.
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3)Ignoring the advice of experienced people now is something characters known for their wisdom and intelligence can't do... It apparently diminishes their own wisdom, intelligence and experience to actually use these things...
If one doesn't know anything about the foe such as the Phaerimm and Sharn, it would be better to consult someone who have first-hand data about the enemy than make some blundering decision, waste lives and throwing their weight around. Throwing their weight around during war doesn't change the situation.
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4)And people who rule a large diverse city, one where they have to deal with a huge variety of people, races, and intrigues, are too stupid to know not to let their pride get in the way.
They don't know much beyond their own confines other than what they know about their own confines-even so, they don't know the deepest secrets within their city.
They had not seen how the Phaerimm fought, cast brutal war spells and had not seen how their own expeditionary armies got fried by the phaerimm. Hence they hold onto their pride and belief, when they had seen a live demonstration from the phaerimm, I think they would be shaken to the core and drop their pride.
They hold fervent belief that their army who had seen the devils, fought Myrkul legions and beat Iakhovas raid meant they are well experienced to handle anything, eventually even their troops bought their own graves. They hold great faith and pride in their army and it simply galls them to the core because the Shadovar army fought the phaerimm better, quick to distrust because the Shadovar got some mysterious magic they can't decipher while having master wizards who don't know anything and think the Shadovar as arrogant when they tried to save them from further deaths as the Shadovar knew they don't know anything about the enemy, and it simply galls them further when the Shadovar refused to reveal important war intelligence and arcane secrets without remembering public people around-who will spread word fastest to the enemy with their gossip- and unseen phaerimm spies-they potentially can suppress and infiltrate wards- nearby.
Such thoughts are common in everyone, even the Lords and can creep out of one's mouth or enter one's mind without one's notice easily.
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If any of these things are true, why is it that we're only seeing them in this one trilogy? And why is it that these things oh-so-conveniently make the author's own characters look better?
Two reasons: One, WotC High Command sanctioned it and approved the final draft before the novel hit the road. I don't speak for WotC High Command, it is their decision and even I can't do anything about it, except those within WotC High Com.
Second reason, Troy is trying to portray (even if he didn't did it well enough) the realities of life, death and the cold truth about war, fighting unseen and unknown enemies, everyday reactions concerning pride and experience especially in politics and military. That not everything is what we think and static.
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Heroes in Novels
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