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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Apr 2006 : 15:40:34
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Originally posted by silvermage
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1)That having centuries of experience at battling unknown foes did not at all prepare the Chosen to fight yet another unknown foe, one that they have had ample opportunity to encounter, since some lived right next door...
Every unknown foe is totally different from the previous one they faced, there is no foe that is similar or identical to the previous one. Example: A enemy from the Far Realm can simply walk up to their door and introduce himself and the Chosen caught pants down again because there is no lore about this creature and this creature comes from don't know where and previous powerful spells that worked don't work now.
If the Chosen had known about the Sharn Wall and the ancient enemy it guards and readied themselves for the phaerimm and walloped the phaerimm a long time ago. Also, the Phaerimm in Myth Drannor and the Phaerimm in the Sharn Wall are different. The Phaerimm in Myth Drannor are content to sleep in their magic zone and live life while occassionally fighting off the curious intruder and since they rarely wander out of their comfort zone to kill, why disturb them when they don't disturb you?
The Phaerimm in the Sharn Wall are different, they were defeated and humiliated and they don't like it and eager to prove their superiority again and while starved of magic. They didn't idle away, but spent time reviewing why are they defeated that led them to this prison and what would happen if they don't change and improve their attack strategy and spells, this anyone of the right mind would had done while imprisoned.
Like I said, if the Chosen were to cram their minds with spells against every ancient enemy because they are going to knock soon, the Chosen will not do it as they simply don't want to go round chasing shadows. Why cram the mind with spells when the enemy is not so immediate and so far away?
Experience at fighting unknown foes serves to strengthen the spirit and mind, but doesn't mean that effective snap and wise decisions can be made because based on experience alone. If every foe were to be dealt like that, it would be too easy on the Chosen and how are the Chosen going to improve themselves?
My point, which you seem quite willing to ignore, is that after centuries of constantly dealing with the unknown, you learn how to react to unexpected circumstances. Lore doesn't matter, not knowing about the Sharn Wall doesn't matter, knowing how to deal with the unexpected is what matters. Even a person of average intelligence would know that if something didn't work, then they need to try something else. And we know the Chosen are at least that smart.
Phaerimm can be encountered in Myth Drannor, and there they don't just sit around and wait for someone to walk up and start lobbing spells at them... And the phaerimm, Wall or no, were also present in the Anauroch. I suppose you're now going to say the Chosen had, in all their centuries, never ventured into those places?
The Chosen are intelligent enough and experienced enough to know that when facing an unknown foe, you see what works and adjust your strategy accordingly. You don't just keep lobbing spells, hoping that one will work where the previous 20 have failed.
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2)The Chosen, who have always battled to help the common man, apparently now don't care about them.
If they really cared about the elves in Evereska and the mythal, El and all the Chosen could had raced straight to Evereska and try combining their mighty power to burn a hole in the Dead Wall-which Khelben said can be burned through with Silverfire. And they know that the enemy is very powerful in magic, and they had not seen fit to properly equip and arm the common soldiers against the phaerimm and not waste their lives against an enemy which they know initially that spells and common melee and ranged weapons cannot penetrate.
Even Laeral snubbed her army's complains and welfare.
El was too concerned about a Shadow Weave user running around than helping to fight the phaerimm which was the biggest threat to the realms. What about Shandril? He could had given her a powerful teleport spell and sent her on her way to Silverymoon straight rather than letting her risk her life on the road or ordering some Knight to go on a merry round chase which he knew they cannot arrive on time to save. Same applies for Alustriel, she just express temporary regret when she could had done something more for the dying dwarves at Nesme and concerning Shandril, why not teleport to Shadowdale and take her straight to Silverymoon?
Khelben simply ordered troops to charge into a killing field when their spellshields were cancelled or had no spellshields and only expressed temporary remorse when some Harper agent got killed and some troops got killed by his orders. Even wasted inexperienced young elven soldiers' lives by ordering a mass charge, he should had wondered why he phaerimm never got their mindslaves out on the field to serve as meatshields.
Because, as Chosen, they obviously had nothing else to do. We all know they sit around all day, smoking pipes, drinking, and chatting about Desparate Housewives. Dropping everything to become magic weapon factories is a snap.
And it's interesting how you first defend Troy's mangling of the Chosen by saying they didn't have enough info to make intelligent decisions, and now you blast them for it...
It would also help this discussion if you had all the facts.
El was sidelined early on -- he couldn't worry about anything, because he was being mentally raped in Hell.
Shandril (how'd she wind up in this discussion?) couldn't be teleported. One of the many things that was never explained, because of the editorial axe that was inflicted on Spellfire, was why this was so. From our lovely Lady Hooded One:
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In the original spellfire game rules, users of spellfire (NOT Mystra’s silver fire, which is “of the Weave”) couldn’t use ANY translocation spells: it “burned a hole in the Weave” and destroyed them personally in doing so. They dimension doored or teleported and simply “never arrived.” Anywhere.
So it couldn't be done. Hence, it wasn't.
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3)Ignoring the advice of experienced people now is something characters known for their wisdom and intelligence can't do... It apparently diminishes their own wisdom, intelligence and experience to actually use these things...
If one doesn't know anything about the foe such as the Phaerimm and Sharn, it would be better to consult someone who have first-hand data about the enemy than make some blundering decision, waste lives and throwing their weight around. Throwing their weight around during war doesn't change the situation.
You are correct. And yet, every single non-Troy white hat, when presented with info about an unknown enemy, decided to ignore it in favor of their own lame strategy.
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4)And people who rule a large diverse city, one where they have to deal with a huge variety of people, races, and intrigues, are too stupid to know not to let their pride get in the way.
They don't know much beyond their own confines other than what they know about their own confines-even so, they don't know the deepest secrets within their city.
They had not seen how the Phaerimm fought, cast brutal war spells and had not seen how their own expeditionary armies got fried by the phaerimm. Hence they hold onto their pride and belief, when they had seen a live demonstration from the phaerimm, I think they would be shaken to the core and drop their pride.
They hold fervent belief that their army who had seen the devils, fought Myrkul legions and beat Iakhovas raid meant they are well experienced to handle anything, eventually even their troops bought their own graves. They hold great faith and pride in their army and it simply galls them to the core because the Shadovar army fought the phaerimm better, quick to distrust because the Shadovar got some mysterious magic they can't decipher while having master wizards who don't know anything and think the Shadovar as arrogant when they tried to save them from further deaths as the Shadovar knew they don't know anything about the enemy, and it simply galls them further when the Shadovar refused to reveal important war intelligence and arcane secrets without remembering public people around-who will spread word fastest to the enemy with their gossip- and unseen phaerimm spies-they potentially can suppress and infiltrate wards- nearby.
Such thoughts are common in everyone, even the Lords and can creep out of one's mouth or enter one's mind without one's notice easily.
In other words, they couldn't see past their own pride. Funny, I think that's what I said... Considering that other novels and lore have shown that they can see past their own pride, this clearly illustrates yet another place where non-Troy characters were turned into idiots to advance a plot.
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If any of these things are true, why is it that we're only seeing them in this one trilogy? And why is it that these things oh-so-conveniently make the author's own characters look better?
Two reasons: One, WotC High Command sanctioned it and approved the final draft before the novel hit the road. I don't speak for WotC High Command, it is their decision and even I can't do anything about it, except those within WotC High Com.
Exactly! They didn't care about established lore and were only too willing to chuck it aside! That's my complaint.
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Second reason, Troy is trying to portray (even if he didn't did it well enough) the realities of life, death and the cold truth about war, fighting unseen and unknown enemies, everyday reactions concerning pride and experience especially in politics and military. That not everything is what we think and static.
What he portrayed is that no one he writes about is smart enough to tie their own shoes unless one of his own characters does it. Other writers can portray the things you list without mangling established characters; why can't he?
I grow weary of this argument. It's a simple fact that Troy's portrayal of established characters did not at all draw from the previous lore of those characters. I've said this repeatedly; I'll not say it again in this discussion. I'm sure you're going to want to issue a rebuttal, but you needn't bother. I'm done discussing this. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 12 Apr 2006 15:44:39 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2006 : 15:46:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
quote:
Originally posted by silvermage
tl;dr blather babble blah blah
Uhm, whatever your analysis of the Chosen as portrayed in the RotA trilogy is irrelevant. The whole point is that Troy Denning portrayed them so out-of-character it's not even funny, thus rendering your criticism of the characters' behavior invalid -- they aren't acting like how they would act, had the story been written by say, Ed Greenwood.
Exactly! No one has protrayed them like that before, and no one has done it since. That's a pretty good indication it was out of character.  |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2006 : 16:48:20
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BTW,
I agree with Wooly and some of the comments in this thread, makes it clear, to me, that some people don't understand the motivations and history of the Chosen or even the Lords. I did have an open mind about that series as well, when it came out, even though I knew it was another RSE, however, it was another trilogy that I buried deep into my book case and I'll never use in my version of the setting because many of the characters just seemed out of place and I dislike RSE's no matter who is writing them. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2006 : 17:03:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
BTW,
I agree with Wooly and some of the comments in this thread, makes it clear, to me, that some people don't understand the motivations and history of the Chosen or even the Lords. I did have an open mind about that series as well, when it came out, even though I knew it was another RSE, however, it was another trilogy that I buried deep into my book case and I'll never use in my version of the setting because many of the characters just seemed out of place and I dislike RSE's no matter who is writing them.
Couldn't have said it better myself .
That being said... determining any interpretation and/or opinion of the Chosen based entirely upon what one has read in the RotA trilogy is perhaps one of the more inappropriate things to do when confronting the Realms... either as a newcomer or a long-time fan.
To put it simply... there are far better examples of the Chosen (in both fiction and Ed's comments here) to base your views on how the Chosen should have reacted to the events of this RSE.
'Nuff said  .
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silvermage
Seeker
77 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 03:00:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
quote:
Originally posted by silvermage
tl;dr blather babble blah blah
Uhm, whatever your analysis of the Chosen as portrayed in the RotA trilogy is irrelevant. The whole point is that Troy Denning portrayed them so out-of-character it's not even funny, thus rendering your criticism of the characters' behavior invalid -- they aren't acting like how they would act, had the story been written by say, Ed Greenwood.
Another Impressive Comment, which I will pass off this time again, for now.
Weren't acting like what they should? I simply think that The Chosen it was right that the Chosen should be portrayed truly as a mortal with mortal limitations, not because they had the divine blessing or not. Furthermore, like what I said, it every unknown foe is going to be walloped and kicked across the multiverse by the Chosen wise and effective decisions and because they have the lore and experience, it would be simply too easy on the Chosen and more of a one-sided war and lessen the role of other characters and unfair to the role of the other characters.
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My point, which you seem quite willing to ignore, is that after centuries of constantly dealing with the unknown, you learn how to react to unexpected circumstances. Lore doesn't matter, not knowing about the Sharn Wall doesn't matter, knowing how to deal with the unexpected is what matters. Even a person of average intelligence would know that if something didn't work, then they need to try something else. And we know the Chosen are at least that smart.
Right, but that doesn't mean that one time experience with a foe makes one smarter for the next encounter. Also, experience with unknown foes doesn't mean one can predict the next baddie style and movement. For every race have its own characteristics and behavior and cannot be simply predicted or known just from experience with some unknown enemy who is totally different from this foe. Each unknown foe of different racial origin reacts varyingly from each other and experience doesn't count much against foes who can adapt and sentient enough to change.
For war is not static, a defeat on the enemy would force the enemy to review its strategies and methods and adapt to the new tactic employed by the enemy. Hence, rendering what the Chosen believed to be effective against the enemy to become ineffective and force the Chosen to think again. This is a true reflection of the realities of war, not a fantasy-style war where everything is so easy, and war is not static, and it takes constant encounters with the foe and facing death dozens of times in order to make increasingly effective decisions to beat a foe. Even if one beats a unknown foe, it doesn't mean the next in line unknown baddie won't be smart enough to wander why the first one was defeated.
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Phaerimm can be encountered in Myth Drannor, and there they don't just sit around and wait for someone to walk up and start lobbing spells at them... And the phaerimm, Wall or no, were also present in the Anauroch. I suppose you're now going to say the Chosen had, in all their centuries, never ventured into those places?
First, the Phaerimm have a comfortbale magic zone which this is their most prized comfort. They have caves and holes to hide, they react when someone attacks them naturally as self-defence. They know there are powerful people nearby but won't disturb them since "I got my nice home already and why disturb them when they don't disturb me?" Like what I said, will the Chosen be willing to go to the extent to cram their minds with war spells against every ancient unknown foe and go chasing shadows. Would one go attack the foe when it is not a hostile threat to oneself?
Also, were the Chosen there to witness the victorious Sharn walling up the Phaerimm and did the Sharn go round publicising their latest victory to the Chosen? Nope, because the Sharn are isolationists. Also, Phaerimm see magic well enough and no fool would march into the wall just to see what a phaerimm looks like when two thousand or so Phaerimm who knows their prison so well that they do know when is the next dinner coming in and from where. Also, the location of the Sharn Wall is unknown with no known entrances, and not even the Chosen would be so willing to dig through tons of sand just to find an entrance into the prison.
Also, the Phaerimm imprisoned inside the Sharn Wall are sentient not stupid creatures like their kindred who enjoy comfort in Myth Drannor. They suffered defeat and left to wallow their defeat, would a person of the right mind who had been defeated sit there and waste time away? No! Naturally, they will seek to understand their defeat and swear not to be defeated again, change their strategy and war spells, analyze previous battles and see how to overcome their defeat. Also, they are starving and raving mad after a thousand years of imprisonment and defeat, their minds are already set on vengeance and their characters are ruthless for even imprisonment and starvation can drive the most nice guy into a raving madman willing to kill to get back at those responsible. Their attitude is different from the Myth Drannor ones, whereby the Sharn Wall Phaerimm are more like "I had been imprisoned and starved for so long! I had been defeated and never will I be defeated again! I am going to be brutal and ruthless to any who oppose me the slightest." Even among us humans, just imagine if the Sharn Wall Phaerimm were humans, guess how such humans will react.
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The Chosen are intelligent enough and experienced enough to know that when facing an unknown foe, you see what works and adjust your strategy accordingly. You don't just keep lobbing spells, hoping that one will work where the previous 20 have failed.
If you can say so for the Chosen, then why can't an enemy also adapt and change as well? As I said war is not static and neither is the opponent static. The enemy can't be novices and bumbling fools. It is simply the raw fact that sudden appearance of powerful foes who have unusual unknown properties that the Chosen were caught pants down, also the Chosen employ magic as their main weapon and people who are too dependent and too familiar with one weapon will do everything just to wonder why their weapon don't work and blinded to the other possible avenues of attack which do not use the main weapon but simply they don't want to waste time and effort exploring another avenue/weapon of attack. It happens to everyone who are dependent and so used to one form of attack that one will persistently use that form of attack while ignoring other weapons..
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In other words, they couldn't see past their own pride. Funny, I think that's what I said... Considering that other novels and lore have shown that they can see past their own pride, this clearly illustrates yet another place where non-Troy characters were turned into idiots to advance a plot.
It had been an assumption that the most experienced and disciplined ones can master their pride, actually that is just the fastest road to defeat by assuming so. Pride can easily creep into anyone without their notice and nobody likes what they had build on their foundations to be shaken. The Lords' pride just crept up onto them at the wrong time and wrong moment and such things can happen to anybody.
This will be my final rebuttal as well and I can gurantee there are many more forum members in this forum whom I had interacted with privately and they all also agreed with me though they do not wish to speak up and say so. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 03:31:02
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On a related note, I found the whole "Thousands of Beholders and Illithids are enslaved" to be a tad unrealistic as well.
Or was I the only fellow who thought that Illithids having huge PSIONIC BRAINS as their gods would be a tad hard to mind control and Beholders are a pretty RARE monster.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Krase
Acolyte
6 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 03:42:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
On a related note, I found the whole "Thousands of Beholders and Illithids are enslaved" to be a tad unrealistic as well.
Why not? In battle, a general needs to field specialized troops with capabilities needed on the battlefield. Afterall, it is right that beholders and illithids form a support force for the Phaerimm armies.
Beholders to provide anti-magic protection from the general war spells and disintegration rays against arrows, projectiles and missile-borne weaponry, a mobile anti-air defense and spell-eraser unit. A useful addition and important war unit.
Illithids to serve as the anti-spellcaster by locating and mind-blasting the enemy spellcaster minds temporaily and to lighten the burden on the phaerimm mind control as illithids have some mind-control ability(not as superior as the Phaerimm) to control the lower ranks. Besides that, serving as officers in the army. A tactical addition to the army ranks.
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Or was I the only fellow who thought that Illithids having huge PSIONIC BRAINS as their gods would be a tad hard to mind control and Beholders are a pretty RARE monster.
Beholders are not rare monsters, commonly found in Underdark beholder cities. The Illithid god doesn't care much about the illithids and the illithids don't even know they are being mind-controlled by the phaerimm. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 03:56:14
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The Illithid gods are their Elder Brains.
Seriously, any attempt by the Phaerimm to enslave the Beholders and the Illithids would result in a massive war campaign that would result in hundreds of the Phaerimm killed. They may be a great and powerful army but The number of disintegrated Phaerimm after anti-magic rays RIP through their defenses would be considerable. The Illithids would brush off most mind control like droplets of water before blasting the phaerimm with waves of psionic power from their gods (The Elder brains) that annihilate them.
An alliance? Yes. Takeover? Hell no.
I don't mind a massive war but the one sided depiction of the conflict was silly frankly, especially since Ed has outright established the Phaerimm were not the 60th level crazies they were in second edition.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 13 Apr 2006 03:57:54 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 04:03:29
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For me, if I was going to RPG the Chosen then I would portray them as military geniuses and leaders of immense power. I'd definitely portray the fact that they were unable to bring their cities resources for Everveska's aid but they themselves were willing to lend what aid they were capable of doing.
The Phaerimm themselves would certainly create their army from a dizzying array of spell bound Underdark monsters but the Illithids and Beholders would be won over with positions as officers in their forces rather than as mind controlled slaves. I'd also take the time to describe something of their military situation with intelligent description of what magic they'd use. The Phaerimm would be animating the dead, summoning monsters, charming, and so on while also building gates to bring in forces from other locations even as they poured from their imprisoned location while drilling up holes for more Underdark beasts to come from.
I'd also make it clear the battle is overwhelming to the elves but they were inflicting massive losses on the enemy. The Phaerimm themselves would be the problem with the war destined to be lost as long as they lived. The problem wouldn't further be killing the Phaerimm (I HATE hate *HATE* those shadowswords) but getting past their defenses to kill them.
I'd portray the Phaerimm as the hyperintelligent and brilliant monsters that they are.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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TymoraChosen
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 04:08:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
The Illithid gods are their Elder Brains.
Seriously, any attempt by the Phaerimm to enslave the Beholders and the Illithids would result in a massive war campaign that would result in hundreds of the Phaerimm killed. They may be a great and powerful army but The number of disintegrated Phaerimm after anti-magic rays RIP through their defenses would be considerable. The Illithids would brush off most mind control like droplets of water before blasting the phaerimm with waves of psionic power from their gods (The Elder brains) that annihilate them.
An alliance? Yes. Takeover? Hell no.
I don't mind a massive war but the one sided depiction of the conflict was silly frankly, especially since Ed has outright established the Phaerimm were not the 60th level crazies they were in second edition.
The phaerimm are naturally magic resistant due to some properties of the scales and phaerimm are near equivalent to a high level master sorcerer level. They are pretty intelligent and have wide array of arcane spells since their creation during the Imaskari Empire time-a very powerful empire of magic and more advanced than Netheril.
Secondly, Phaerimm have no eyes and it is not known where their brains are located. To look into the illithid eye would risk a high chance of being mind-blasted but phaerimm have no eyes and I must agree with my long-time lady black-ops comrade that the Phaerimm have plenty of time to develop mind-controlling spells and armed it with spell-pentration feats or whatever. Also, if the phaerimm are so powerful in magic, I doubt it is below them to use necromancy and Elder Brains can't fight undead and surely the phaerimm who are Underdark creatures will adapt and develop ways to overcome the psionic defenses of the illithids. Lastly, Phaerimm communicate both through magic winds and mentally-if they can with other races, why can't they overcome the Elder Brain?
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I don't mind a massive war but the one sided depiction of the conflict was silly frankly, especially since Ed has outright established the Phaerimm were not the 60th level crazies they were in second edition
Who knows their lelves are changed again? |
May tymora's blessings be heaped on all |
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Halcyon
Acolyte
11 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 04:13:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
For me, if I was going to RPG the Chosen then I would portray them as military geniuses and leaders of immense power. I'd definitely portray the fact that they were unable to bring their cities resources for Everveska's aid but they themselves were willing to lend what aid they were capable of doing.
Honestly, the Chosen are not the sort to engage in constant military warfare to grow genius enough and they are too social-comfort bound and averse to violence that they may not be willing to do so.
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The Phaerimm themselves would certainly create their army from a dizzying array of spell bound Underdark monsters but the Illithids and Beholders would be won over with positions as officers in their forces rather than as mind controlled slaves. I'd also take the time to describe something of their military situation with intelligent description of what magic they'd use. The Phaerimm would be animating the dead, summoning monsters, charming, and so on while also building gates to bring in forces from other locations even as they poured from their imprisoned location while drilling up holes for more Underdark beasts to come from.
That's what I expect of them, a massive epic army.
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I'd also make it clear the battle is overwhelming to the elves but they were inflicting massive losses on the enemy. The Phaerimm themselves would be the problem with the war destined to be lost as long as they lived. The problem wouldn't further be killing the Phaerimm (I HATE hate *HATE* those shadowswords) but getting past their defenses to kill them.
There is the phaerimm's natural magic resistance and hard-scales to think of for the phaerimm are highly resistant to even Weave enchanted weapons and missile weapons. Secondly, the elves don't know phaerimm for they had never fought them and too reliant on magic and against an aggressive enemy who can see magic like heat, naturally I favor the elves losing than the phaerimm.
Mod edit: tweaked the coding to make the post look right. |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 13 Apr 2006 04:48:30 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 05:14:15
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I'm not saying I don't think it'd be VERY VERY HARD to kill the Phaerimm and that would be why the Elves would lose. That's also why I think that they would inflict massive damage on the Phaerimm's armies though.
As for wartime experience, I don't think that's the case honestly. The Chosen Ones flitter from hot spots to hot spots and certainly exist primarily in adventuring bands, horrible pits, and the like to learn the secrets of warcraft.
I consider their current "comfy" positions a relatively new development. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 06:18:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
For me, if I was going to RPG the Chosen then I would portray them as military geniuses and leaders of immense power.
Leaders of immense power, yes. military geniuses, why, where, how, and when Charles. I have never seen one of these characters portrayed as such. Can they inspire and lead a troop, yes. Do they have the tactical knowledge of leading an army on the battlefield, in a manner such as you suggest, I think that remains to be seen.
I have seen the chosen portrayed in many ways over the years, as leaders of communities, cities, realms, and such. However, they all seem to have some fairly powerful advisors, in the way of military might and governance of a realm. |
Edited by - scererar on 13 Apr 2006 06:26:12 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 06:43:48
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Even the best leaders have advisors.
As for military genisues, I think it largely merely serves as a natural extension of a number of factors
1. Their immense age.
2. The fact they live their entire lives in conflict.
3. The fact that as leaders, they have no doubt been exposed to countless wars.
4. Their immense intelligence.
5. Their magic will no doubt provide things like Legend Lore and the like that gives them all the advantages Sun Tzu could imagine. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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ode904
Learned Scribe
Finland
193 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 06:45:21
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| I think it's quite clear to people who have read all Drizzt-stories that he goes through manychanges during the books. Myself i enjoy reading Drizzt books, because there are alot about Drizzt's emotions and the character ''develops'' much (and there's also a lot of action). But like Charles says, there is no DEEP character development. |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 06:49:14
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quote:
Originally posted by ode904
I think it's quite clear to people who have read all Drizzt-stories that he goes through manychanges during the books. Myself i enjoy reading Drizzt books, because there are alot about Drizzt's emotions and the character ''develops'' much (and there's also a lot of action). But like Charles says, there is no DEEP character development.
I have read all of the drizzt novels and have seen "character development" from him about to be slain at birth to the end of the last trilogy. I guess I would ask what you meen by "deep character development" |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 06:49:38
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quote:
Originally posted by silvermage
This will be my final rebuttal as well and I can gurantee there are many more forum members in this forum whom I had interacted with privately and they all also agreed with me though they do not wish to speak up and say so.
How is that supposed to... matter? "Well, other imaginary phantom people who can't be bothered to say anything in public agree with me, too, so nyah nyah nyah!" doesn't add much to anyone's argument. Really, trust me. |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 06:54:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Even the best leaders have advisors.
As for military genisues, I think it largely merely serves as a natural extension of a number of factors
1. Their immense age.
2. The fact they live their entire lives in conflict.
3. The fact that as leaders, they have no doubt been exposed to countless wars.
4. Their immense intelligence.
5. Their magic will no doubt provide things like Legend Lore and the like that gives them all the advantages Sun Tzu could imagine.
I'm still not seeing military genius, but to each thier own my friend . I do concur that their immense age and and experience "could" lend them them some great wisdom to accomplish just about anything though. In my opinion, there are too many of them to place "the chosen" in one single catagory. could one be a military genius sure, would they all be, I think not. Coming all together at one time or even a few at once, as "any" realms novel will dictate is a rare and historic event. |
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silvermage
Seeker
77 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 08:59:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
How is that supposed to... matter? "Well, other imaginary phantom people who can't be bothered to say anything in public agree with me, too, so nyah nyah nyah!" doesn't add much to anyone's argument. Really, trust me.
Imaginary Phantoms? An impressive name but in truth, they are not phantoms though they are not so active in the forums doesn't mean they are not alive. They may not be so forthcoming with their arguments, though there are many members here who are so in favor of the RotA and who agree that it is not a worthy novel, similarly, there are many members of like-mind like me who find the novel worthy. |
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Carion Hunter
Acolyte
23 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 09:11:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Even the best leaders have advisors.
As for military genisues, I think it largely merely serves as a natural extension of a number of factors
1. Their immense age.
2. The fact they live their entire lives in conflict.
3. The fact that as leaders, they have no doubt been exposed to countless wars.
4. Their immense intelligence.
5. Their magic will no doubt provide things like Legend Lore and the like that gives them all the advantages Sun Tzu could imagine.
Ahem, forgive this quiet one interruption for I had been lying dormant for some time already.
As to their first factor, immense age won't help much on the Chosen part, for they tend to lose bits and bits of their memories as the go on. Immortality is sometimes a curse, for being so old and yet experienced doesn't mean that one is very updated on the latest military tactics and strategy and possess the willingness to employ new, untested, yet potential tactics for the war cause and also, the ability to conduct excellent military operations also diminish with age. Besides that, there is also a point to note, the Chosen military tactics would be analyzed by foes and used against them which the Chosen may not be able to counter.
In my soldier experience, I find there is a distinctive difference between experienced people and those modern day people.
As to the second factor, they spent more time on their private lives than war, even so, the battles they fight are quite-short term and not long-term, and long term wars are usually a gritty yet enriching experience.
As to the third factor, exposed to Countless wars but one question, do they learn anything worthy of learning from these countless wars? If they do, i have no questions. If they do not, then they had wasted their time in the wars.
As to the fourth factor, immense intelligence? Intelligence doesn't equal wisdom and experience on the battlefield and high intelligence on the battlefield usually work against these commanders on occassions.
As to the fifth factor, magic weapons only play a small role in the war and Sun Tzu emphasize more on military tactics, morale, intelligence gathering activities and flexibility and adaptability. Not stockpiling magical weapons for a fight for it won't help much. |
Wanna throw me out? You gotta think thrice about that. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 09:15:34
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quote:
Originally posted by silvermage
Imaginary Phantoms? An impressive name but in truth, they are not phantoms though they are not so active in the forums doesn't mean they are not alive. They may not be so forthcoming with their arguments, though there are many members here who are so in favor of the RotA and who agree that it is not a worthy novel, similarly, there are many members of like-mind like me who find the novel worthy.
Then why can't any of them post? Seriously, even if 100% of House Baenre is in favor of taking House Agrach Dyrr out, but only one soldier shows up to besiege their walls, then there's no battle that day --- maybe a slaughter. I can only think of a small handful of members banned in my time here, and I doubt any of them would post in support of RotAW, so where is your support? Or am I missing your legion of invisible stalkers? Sorry, left my glasses of true seeing at home today. |
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Carion Hunter
Acolyte
23 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 09:19:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by silvermage
Imaginary Phantoms? An impressive name but in truth, they are not phantoms though they are not so active in the forums doesn't mean they are not alive. They may not be so forthcoming with their arguments, though there are many members here who are so in favor of the RotA and who agree that it is not a worthy novel, similarly, there are many members of like-mind like me who find the novel worthy.
Then why can't any of them post? Seriously, even if 100% of House Baenre is in favor of taking House Agrach Dyrr out, but only one soldier shows up to besiege their walls, then there's no battle that day --- maybe a slaughter. I can only think of a small handful of members banned in my time here, and I doubt any of them would post in support of RotAW, so where is your support? Or am I missing your legion of invisible stalkers? Sorry, left my glasses of true seeing at home today.
Ahem, please Lady Moderator, have a care with your words. I am one of the many support and I keep quite doesn't mean I am a phantom. I am away on a military expedition in foreign lands in the Middle East meant that I had little time in the forums unlike my friend, and that doesn't mean I am a phantom.
It would be highly appreciated if you take care with your words. |
Wanna throw me out? You gotta think thrice about that. |
Edited by - Carion Hunter on 13 Apr 2006 09:21:22 |
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Sir Vengeance
Acolyte
42 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 09:28:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by silvermage
Imaginary Phantoms? An impressive name but in truth, they are not phantoms though they are not so active in the forums doesn't mean they are not alive. They may not be so forthcoming with their arguments, though there are many members here who are so in favor of the RotA and who agree that it is not a worthy novel, similarly, there are many members of like-mind like me who find the novel worthy.
Then why can't any of them post? Seriously, even if 100% of House Baenre is in favor of taking House Agrach Dyrr out, but only one soldier shows up to besiege their walls, then there's no battle that day --- maybe a slaughter. I can only think of a small handful of members banned in my time here, and I doubt any of them would post in support of RotAW, so where is your support? Or am I missing your legion of invisible stalkers? Sorry, left my glasses of true seeing at home today.
 Pardon milady moderator. Lady Silvermage had not insulted anybody personally and I am also one the many supporters which you claim to be, and Please do not abuse your moderator position by making such comments. |
Vengeance is justified on righteous grounds, for righteous vengeance cannot be denied by anybody. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 09:31:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Carion Hunter
Ahem, please Lady Moderator, have a care with your words. I am one of the many support and I keep quite doesn't mean I am a phantom. I am away on a military expedition in foreign lands in the Middle East meant that I had little time in the forums unlike my friend, and that doesn't mean I am a phantom.
It would be highly appreciated if you take care with your words.
It's not meant as a jab at you; it's a sarcastic comment aimed at the person who up until then, seemed to be blowing hot air. Still, thanks for lending some amount of support to silvermage's argument and by extension, some small sanity to this discussion. It's not the supposed legions, but it is a start. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 09:49:07
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My comment may amaze some, but I do like RotA... a lot. I cannot really find any of the flaws some people (Wooly and others) have pointed out. Then again, I only read the trilogy twice so far.
The Chosen acted their part, and I can't remember them actually ignoring 'wisdom'. Khelben didn't have much of a choice when Evermeet's army tried to set up the 'gate-point'. I think he also was strongly against it.
Same with the others.
I also think that they certainly had experience fighting individual Phaerimm, but an army is an entirely different animal.
As for Galaeron and gang always succeeding, um...no... not at all. I think they failed more than enough times... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 16:06:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Carion Hunter
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
5. Their magic will no doubt provide things like Legend Lore and the like that gives them all the advantages Sun Tzu could imagine.
As to the fifth factor, magic weapons only play a small role in the war and Sun Tzu emphasize more on military tactics, morale, intelligence gathering activities and flexibility and adaptability. Not stockpiling magical weapons for a fight for it won't help much.
Maybe... because... Sun Tzu didn't have access to magical weapons period...? So I doubt he'd have, uhm, emphasized it any.
Charles also mentioned, quite explicitly, spells. Morale? If one is inclined, there're always spells like Emotion: Hope and fear spells. Intelligence gathering? Well durr, the abovementioned Legend Lore? Divination/scrying spells? |
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Feanor
Learned Scribe
100 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 20:31:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I didn't think it was at all.
The sword gave him an advantage but Drizzt proved he was the greatest swordsman in the Realms by being the one to wield it.
Any yahoo could have weilded the sword. The fact that Drizzt found it and got lucky in a later encounter, because of it, proves nothing.
If he was so great, why did he need the magic of the sword to defeat Errtu?
Oh, and we know by Ed's words that Drizzt is not the greatest swordsman in the Realms.
But Salvatore depicts him in a way which makes me think of Li Mu Bai from Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon...  |
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Feanor
Learned Scribe
100 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 20:44:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Chataro
Theres something i'm very curious about. I am personally a very big fan of drizzt in the past when he was still a man instead of the wimp he is now. The question is......
How on earth did u expect anyone to defeat a demon without a magical weapon? demons are immune to normal weapons,aren't they? So what if errtu was caught by surprise, errtu had lots of spells on his side, its not drizzt's fault that the silly demon was counting on his flame aura. As for condemning drizzt for using icingdeath, you might as well say elminster is not a true wizard for depending on being a chosen of mystra. find me an adventurer who can defeat a demon with no spells or magic weapon and i will show u a demon who is actually a human who is walking around in a demon custome.
No one is condemning Drizzt for using Icingdeath. What I am saying is that his skill was not a factor in his defeat of Errtu -- it was all Icingdeath, not training or skill. Drizzt would not have won the fight without that particular blade -- any other sword, even a magical one, and he still would have been defeated. It was the magic of the sword that did the trick. Drizzt was already defeated, which nicely shows that his skill did not save the day.
I'm not arguing against using magic weapons or saying that Drizzt is not a good fighter. What I am doing is rejecting the argument that his skill had anything to do with defeating Errtu.
I want to add that this is not only about the magic of Icingdeath which makes Wooly say that it was not skill which saved Drizzt. There are also the circumstances of that particular fight. Errtu practically flattened Drizzt and would have crushed him if not for Icingdeath. It would have been Drizzt's skills which saved the day only if Drizzt had managed to avoid/block Errtu's attack and defeat him in a one-to-one fight, but he did not : practically, Drizzt was on the brink of death and only the magic of Icingdeath + a lucky blow saved his life. Yes, the second fight with Errtu was indeed won due to Drizzt's skills, but he would have still died with Errtu if not for Wulfgar. A little bit too many deus ex machina for my liking. |
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Carion Hunter
Acolyte
23 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2006 : 01:27:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
Maybe... because... Sun Tzu didn't have access to magical weapons period...? So I doubt he'd have, uhm, emphasized it any.
Charles also mentioned, quite explicitly, spells. Morale? If one is inclined, there're always spells like Emotion: Hope and fear spells. Intelligence gathering? Well durr, the abovementioned Legend Lore? Divination/scrying spells?
Superior weapons that are supposedly powerful are fine for armies but the soldier who wield the weapon must have faith in the superior weapon and himself for the weapon to work effectively, otherwise he will be striking off mark or away from target. Very few soldiers manages to find the faith in their weapons once the blood fight starts.
Emotion spells? Frankly speaking, inspiring soldiers through natural means is more effective than magical means, for intelligent opponents that can see magic like body heat may be able to quickly work out the magical pattern of the spell and erase or steal the magic spell that boosts the morale or strike fear in the men, and if this happens, everything fall backs to square one. Inspiring men through natural means make it a very difficult thing for the opponent to handle.
Intelligence gathering through divination and scrying, in my perspective of a real magical world like Faerun. Such spells always runs a risk of failure and not entirely a sound way to gain information. Example, divine or scry where the opponent is, he/she would have magical alarms or counterspells ready to stop and track the source of the scrying. Another example is to scry the intentions of the enemy, it might show that the mind of the enemy when touched by magic is simply an empty void.
The worse case for scrying, divination is scry into the opponent sanctum/home/residence or past, for they would have nasty spells ready such as turning the scryer or diviner crystal globe black and sent magical monsters that can travel out the crystal globe to attack the scryer or diviner. Hence, spies are much more valuable and better than scrying and divining. |
Wanna throw me out? You gotta think thrice about that. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2006 : 02:04:00
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And my response is...
None of that applies to the Chosen whom can work around all that. Also, frankly their stats are that Julius Caesar is a dunce headed commoner compared to them. I don't bring game stats in usually but they represent that the Chosen are as far above normal human beings as humans are above ant. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Heroes in Novels
Topic Locked
