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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Mar 2006 : 17:01:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And it's all kind of a moot point, anyway. While we have been discussing Mystra trying to take the Shadow Weave away from Shar, I can't think of a single bit of canon Realmslore that says she is actually trying to do so.
i dont want to bring this up again bc i think we agree to disagree.. but this is a large part of why i feel its not very important to her... wish i said this first!
Just because she hasn't visibly moved against it yet, that doesn't mean she won't... Remember, gods can play the seriously long games... |
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Kaysae
Acolyte
14 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2006 : 21:31:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And it's all kind of a moot point, anyway. While we have been discussing Mystra trying to take the Shadow Weave away from Shar, I can't think of a single bit of canon Realmslore that says she is actually trying to do so.
My first post here, so don't jab a quill in my eye. I am not certain what you consider "canon Realmslore", but there was this:
quote:
Faiths and Pantheons pg. 50
It is Mystra's aim to eventually subsume the Shadow Weave into her own portfolio, even if that means sacrificing her last remaining vestiges of humanity and inherent goodness and absorbing more of the darkness that is Shar.
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2006 : 21:55:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaysae
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And it's all kind of a moot point, anyway. While we have been discussing Mystra trying to take the Shadow Weave away from Shar, I can't think of a single bit of canon Realmslore that says she is actually trying to do so.
My first post here, so don't jab a quill in my eye. I am not certain what you consider "canon Realmslore", but there was this:
quote:
Faiths and Pantheons pg. 50
It is Mystra's aim to eventually subsume the Shadow Weave into her own portfolio, even if that means sacrificing her last remaining vestiges of humanity and inherent goodness and absorbing more of the darkness that is Shar.
well met!
no you don't have to worry about a quill in the eye!!
(but you might have to watch out for those sigils in the margin!)
i don't have faiths and pantheons... i should figure out who its by... that seems so bizarre to have mystra desire control over the shadow weave more than her desire to stay virtuous. |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2006 : 22:43:04
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| It's by Eric & Erik (Boyd and Mona respectively). |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2006 : 01:26:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaysae
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And it's all kind of a moot point, anyway. While we have been discussing Mystra trying to take the Shadow Weave away from Shar, I can't think of a single bit of canon Realmslore that says she is actually trying to do so.
My first post here, so don't jab a quill in my eye.
Greetings! And welcome to Candlekeep .
quote:
I am not certain what you consider "canon Realmslore", but there was this:
[quote]Faiths and Pantheons pg. 50
It is Mystra's aim to eventually subsume the Shadow Weave into her own portfolio, even if that means sacrificing her last remaining vestiges of humanity and inherent goodness and absorbing more of the darkness that is Shar.
Canon Realmslore, yes. But recall Wooly said "I can't think of a single bit of canon Realmslore that says she is actually trying to do so."
The details you suggest above aren't happening in the here and now, but rather something Mystra wishes to attempt at some point (perhaps seizing upon a time when Shar's power grows weak) -- so that would really fall into the "seriously long games" gods like to play that Wooly again mentioned above.
All in all... If and when Mystra makes her move against the Shadow Weave... it will be at a time when the Lady of Mysteries feels she is ready to do so -- since sacrificing her inherent goodness is quite a big ask... just as it would be for any good-aligned power.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2006 : 03:23:36
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Kaysae
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And it's all kind of a moot point, anyway. While we have been discussing Mystra trying to take the Shadow Weave away from Shar, I can't think of a single bit of canon Realmslore that says she is actually trying to do so.
My first post here, so don't jab a quill in my eye.
Greetings! And welcome to Candlekeep .
quote:
I am not certain what you consider "canon Realmslore", but there was this:
[quote]Faiths and Pantheons pg. 50
It is Mystra's aim to eventually subsume the Shadow Weave into her own portfolio, even if that means sacrificing her last remaining vestiges of humanity and inherent goodness and absorbing more of the darkness that is Shar.
Canon Realmslore, yes. But recall Wooly said "I can't think of a single bit of canon Realmslore that says she is actually trying to do so."
The details you suggest above aren't happening in the here and now, but rather something Mystra wishes to attempt at some point (perhaps seizing upon a time when Shar's power grows weak) -- so that would really fall into the "seriously long games" gods like to play that Wooly again mentioned above.
All in all... If and when Mystra makes her move against the Shadow Weave... it will be at a time when the Lady of Mysteries feels she is ready to do so -- since sacrificing her inherent goodness is quite a big ask... just as it would be for any good-aligned power.
Kaysae made a good call, everyone couldn't find that particular piece of lore (or at least state such), but if that is what it states that is what it states. Unless we want to get into what source books would be considered cannon (all of them). Great first post Kaysae . Feel free to rip me but wishing, thinking, hoping, doing, or whatever is all relative. |
Edited by - scererar on 05 Mar 2006 03:25:25 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2006 : 04:25:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaysae
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And it's all kind of a moot point, anyway. While we have been discussing Mystra trying to take the Shadow Weave away from Shar, I can't think of a single bit of canon Realmslore that says she is actually trying to do so.
My first post here, so don't jab a quill in my eye. I am not certain what you consider "canon Realmslore", but there was this:
quote:
Faiths and Pantheons pg. 50
It is Mystra's aim to eventually subsume the Shadow Weave into her own portfolio, even if that means sacrificing her last remaining vestiges of humanity and inherent goodness and absorbing more of the darkness that is Shar.
If it's a published Realms product, I consider it canon.
The Sage was correct in pointing out that I said that nothing said she was currently working on it... But also, there's another part of that sentence: the "I can't think" bit. Me mind, it's got a lot of stuff wandering freely in there. Sometimes minor details decide to hide for a while...
And hey, welcome to Candlekeep!  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2006 : 04:28:35
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| I know Wooly, I was trying to give props for the first post, sometimes posting here with all of you long timers ( sometimes "old" timers) can be intimidating. I knew what you stated, No worries |
Edited by - scererar on 05 Mar 2006 04:30:55 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2006 : 06:02:04
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| Canon? We are talking about religion? "An ecclesiastical law or code of laws established by a church council"? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2006 : 16:07:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Canon? We are talking about religion? "An ecclesiastical law or code of laws established by a church council"?
could be canon, an object, tool, or weapon that propels an explosive projectile towards the forces of ones enemies I'll stop now.
I think the shadow weave was being discussed... hmmm and Mytra's desire, wish, need, want, maybe gonna try to get it, but not sure when, if the conditions are, but maybe not, plan to obtain control of the shadow weave from Shar, but we might have to wait until 4E ( theres another discussion) |
Edited by - scererar on 05 Mar 2006 16:12:13 |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2006 : 19:54:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Canon? We are talking about religion? "An ecclesiastical law or code of laws established by a church council"?
More along the lines of:
"The works of a writer that have been accepted as authentic: the entire Shakespeare canon."
When discussing a matter with so much fan-fiction, homebrew differences, campaign-specific histories, and even direct contradictions in the officially released info from Wizards or TSR it becomes difficult to find common ground. This is resolved by defining what is canon and what is not and of course opens the doors to a lot of folks arguing over what they consider canonical. |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2006 : 20:17:54
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Canon? We are talking about religion? "An ecclesiastical law or code of laws established by a church council"?
could be canon, an object, tool, or weapon that propels an explosive projectile towards the forces of ones enemies I'll stop now.
Okay, pet-peeve. *puts on cape of annoying know-it-allism
That'd be a cannon (noun). Not a canon (noun).
A third definition (very close, actually more or less the same as Sarta's) of canon could be this: "A rule or especially body of rules or principles generally established as valid and fundamental in a field or art or philosophy. Example. The neoclassical canon" taken from One-look dictionary.com. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
Edited by - Kajehase on 05 Mar 2006 20:24:20 |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2006 : 03:55:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Canon? We are talking about religion? "An ecclesiastical law or code of laws established by a church council"?
could be canon, an object, tool, or weapon that propels an explosive projectile towards the forces of ones enemies I'll stop now.
Okay, pet-peeve. *puts on cape of annoying know-it-allism
That'd be a cannon (noun). Not a canon (noun).
A third definition (very close, actually more or less the same as Sarta's) of canon could be this: "A rule or especially body of rules or principles generally established as valid and fundamental in a field or art or philosophy. Example. The neoclassical canon" taken from One-look dictionary.com.
ok Kajehase, put your pet-peeve back in your pocket I was just having fun, I do know how to spell(sometimes), I was just having fun, thanks for the dictionary explaination though, now we know
the rest of my original post is 2 up from here, just in case we want to get back on topic of Mystra's desire ( or whatever we are assuming her interest is these days in the shadow weave and how, if, when, she may try to assume control of it within the next rules edition or so) Kajehase, by the way, is that cape magical? if so what are it's properties |
Edited by - scererar on 06 Mar 2006 04:08:45 |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2006 : 05:29:22
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
Kajehase, by the way, is that cape magical? if so what are it's properties
Hmm...A -3 penalty on all Charisma-based skill-checks? |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2006 : 17:45:02
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| lets see if we cant work a silence spell into those enchantments heheh |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2006 : 03:27:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarta
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Canon? We are talking about religion? "An ecclesiastical law or code of laws established by a church council"?
More along the lines of:
"The works of a writer that have been accepted as authentic: the entire Shakespeare canon."
When discussing a matter with so much fan-fiction, homebrew differences, campaign-specific histories, and even direct contradictions in the officially released info from Wizards or TSR it becomes difficult to find common ground. This is resolved by defining what is canon and what is not and of course opens the doors to a lot of folks arguing over what they consider canonical.
I know exactly what is being talked about here. My post was a tongue-in-cheek way of expressing disagreement with the way "canon lore" has been elevated to an almost religious importance.
And that's coming from somone who loves and respects the official Realms and its lore.
When people start arguing about what is "canon" and what isn't, I can practically picture a group of elderly theologians leaning over holy books. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 08 Mar 2006 03:29:55 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2006 : 03:47:58
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| Can we nudge this back on topic and end the canon arguement? :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2006 : 04:06:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Can we nudge this back on topic and end the canon arguement? :)
here you go Kuje
I think the shadow weave was being discussed... hmmm and Mytra's desire, wish, need, want, maybe gonna try to get it, but not sure when, if the conditions are, but maybe not, plan to obtain control of the shadow weave from Shar, but we might have to wait until 4E ( theres another discussion)
oh and some more from earlier
the rest of my original post is few up from here, just in case we want to get back on topic of Mystra's desire ( or whatever we are assuming her interest is these days in the shadow weave and how, if, when, she may try to assume control of it within the next rules edition or so) |
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silvermage
Seeker
77 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2006 : 05:21:35
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
here you go Kuje
I think the shadow weave was being discussed... hmmm and Mytra's desire, wish, need, want, maybe gonna try to get it, but not sure when, if the conditions are, but maybe not, plan to obtain control of the shadow weave from Shar, but we might have to wait until 4E ( theres another discussion)
oh and some more from earlier
the rest of my original post is few up from here, just in case we want to get back on topic of Mystra's desire ( or whatever we are assuming her interest is these days in the shadow weave and how, if, when, she may try to assume control of it within the next rules edition or so)
Lets hope that Mystra does not take the Shadow Weave in 4e, for if she does, I think we can anticipate sweeping changes and I seldom favor sweeping changes and I do not favor starting it all over again especially if new magic rules comes in for the Shadow Weave imposed by Mystra.
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Chataro
Learned Scribe
Singapore
114 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2006 : 16:10:45
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| I just thought of something curious, assuming Mystra's cleric and wizard manages to destroy everyone who worships Shar, what do u think will happen to the shadow weave when Shar dies from lack of worshippers? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2006 : 17:33:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Chataro
I just thought of something curious, assuming Mystra's cleric and wizard manages to destroy everyone who worships Shar, what do u think will happen to the shadow weave when Shar dies from lack of worshippers?
Well, that's an incredibly tall order... But, assuming that impossible act was pulled off, Mystra would simply grab the Shadow Weave for herself. |
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TymoraChosen
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 01:25:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Chataro
I just thought of something curious, assuming Mystra's cleric and wizard manages to destroy everyone who worships Shar, what do u think will happen to the shadow weave when Shar dies from lack of worshippers?
Absolutely impossible and unacceptable! Remember, Shar is the most eldest goddess among the whole Pantheon besides Selune. Both have been born at the beginning of time for Toril, Selune represents light and goodness , Shar represents darkness and evil, both represent the balance on Toril.
If Shar dies, then Selune existence is compromised, for good cannot survive without evil and vice versa. For I strongly believe that whoever(very unlikely to be Lord Ao) lent and allowed the raw materials for the creation of Shar will not accept Shar's destruction or loss of Shar.
It is virtually impossible for Mystra's Faithful (be them Guardians or whatever) to 100% eliminate Shar's Faithful.
For first increasing Sharran's deaths would make all the Sharrans go on a widespread riot and retaliation against Mystra's faithful.
Secondly, Shar's faithful are reckless but they are not stupid not to know how to survive or fight back.
Thirdly, remember, in terms of the balance, if good pushes evil too hard and too much, evil will turn around and push good back to the line that marks their borders and restore the balance.That means Shar will empower her faithful with even greater and more destructive spells of the Shadow Weave to fight back. Since the Mystrans cannot cast 10th leven spells or higher, the Mystrans are at a serious disadvantage as you need wide area-effect spells for mass-killing effect. And since no restrictions exist for the Sharrans, they can cast mass-killing spells of 10th level and higher.
Lastly, such conflict would draw the attention of other powerful and lesser deities into the war between Mystra and Shar, and the conflict would be unending with a great fatal price paid by the mortal followers of the various gods. This is something that will not be accepted by even Lord Ao.
Also, Shar is interwined with the Shadow Weave. My hypothesis is that if Shar reallym dies, the Shadow Weave will unravel as the Shadow Weave is a part of the goddess as well. It is virtually impossible and highly unlikely that Mystra can grab every piece and strand of the Shadow Weave, for somebody will be grabbing for it as well. So, there would be another "Shadow Weave" in the hands of a different god-either a Faerunian god or some interloper. If it is interloper and the interloper is vastly powerful and dark, then the reborn Shadow Weave will be a great challenge to Mystra's Weave, as afterall, the balance of powers must be maintained, so does magic. |
May tymora's blessings be heaped on all |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 01:56:59
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quote:
Originally posted by TymoraChosen
quote:
Originally posted by Chataro
I just thought of something curious, assuming Mystra's cleric and wizard manages to destroy everyone who worships Shar, what do u think will happen to the shadow weave when Shar dies from lack of worshippers?
Absolutely impossible and unacceptable! Remember, Shar is the most eldest goddess among the whole Pantheon besides Selune. Both have been born at the beginning of time for Toril, Selune represents light and goodness , Shar represents darkness and evil, both represent the balance on Toril.
If Shar dies, then Selune existence is compromised, for good cannot survive without evil and vice versa. For I strongly believe that whoever(very unlikely to be Lord Ao) lent and allowed the raw materials for the creation of Shar will not accept Shar's destruction or loss of Shar.
It is virtually impossible for Mystra's Faithful (be them Guardians or whatever) to 100% eliminate Shar's Faithful.
For first increasing Sharran's deaths would make all the Sharrans go on a widespread riot and retaliation against Mystra's faithful.
Secondly, Shar's faithful are reckless but they are not stupid not to know how to survive or fight back.
Thirdly, remember, in terms of the balance, if good pushes evil too hard and too much, evil will turn around and push good back to the line that marks their borders and restore the balance.That means Shar will empower her faithful with even greater and more destructive spells of the Shadow Weave to fight back. Since the Mystrans cannot cast 10th leven spells or higher, the Mystrans are at a serious disadvantage as you need wide area-effect spells for mass-killing effect. And since no restrictions exist for the Sharrans, they can cast mass-killing spells of 10th level and higher.
Lastly, such conflict would draw the attention of other powerful and lesser deities into the war between Mystra and Shar, and the conflict would be unending with a great fatal price paid by the mortal followers of the various gods. This is something that will not be accepted by even Lord Ao.
Also, Shar is interwined with the Shadow Weave. My hypothesis is that if Shar reallym dies, the Shadow Weave will unravel as the Shadow Weave is a part of the goddess as well. It is virtually impossible and highly unlikely that Mystra can grab every piece and strand of the Shadow Weave, for somebody will be grabbing for it as well. So, there would be another "Shadow Weave" in the hands of a different god-either a Faerunian god or some interloper. If it is interloper and the interloper is vastly powerful and dark, then the reborn Shadow Weave will be a great challenge to Mystra's Weave, as afterall, the balance of powers must be maintained, so does magic.
I would envision this sort of like when Mystra was detroyed during the time of troubles, I would think a diety would take certain precautions for something like this, as mystra did. Not to say that the shadow weave would not be able to be under teh control of another god, I would think this unlikly just because Shar was destroyed. I do agree that a balance of some sort would have to be maintained and maybe even Ao himself would have to get involved to ensure, "his children" were at least on some level playing fair. The balance will have to be maintained and I think it will be interesting to see how things will play out in the end. I believe the shadow weave does play an important, realms shaking role, in the near future. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 02:02:31
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| Ah, but if Mystra grabbed the Shadow Weave -- which, as a shadow of her own Weave, she's got a greater claim to than anyone other than Shar -- then taking it over would likely push away those last vestiges of humanity and inclinations towards good that Mystra 2.0 has. That would maintain the Balance. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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TymoraChosen
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2006 : 01:58:26
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Though the belief that Mystra would gain the shadow weave and become neutral is a much commonly held belief and preferred belief by most realm fans. For practical reasons, we also need to consider the other possibilities. We need to know whether the Shadow Weave is some form of trap for Mystra in which Mystra may lose out. For Shar is the eldest and most ancient one besides Selune. So Shar is much more wiser and cunning than Mystra who just newly ascended her post and still not too familiar with her post nor have the wisdom that Shar had over the millions of years. We must also consider that if the Shadow Weave raw energies is the counter of the Weave raw energies, will they be able to coexist in a balance or would they erase each other out.
If the two raw energies are able to coexist, that's good. If the two raw energies erase each other, then too bad for Mystra. In my hypothesis, when Selune ripped part of her magic to throw at Shar, the magic of Selune is kind of "positive" and when it ripped through Shar, it ripped out Shar's magic which is kind of "negative" and somehow I believe both "positive" and "negative" are in sufficient concentrations to perfectly balance each other. But I don't think these two fused together for if fused together, will result in the mutual annihilation of each other as common sense and science dictates. So the Weave is kind of positive and negative energies of Selune's and Shar's magic coexisting with each other with proper regulation and control. So the Shadow Weave is kind of entirely "negative" based, it cannot be "positive-based" as it can't create light which is self-explanatory. And if the Weave is truly a balance of positive and negative, then when the raw negative energies of the Shadow Weave come into contact with the raw positive portions of the Weave and whether through controlled or uncontrolled processes (which this I am not certain), two possibilities: coexistence or mutual annihilation which heavily damages the Weave and Mystra which means the destruction of the Weave.
Another thing to consider, if Mystra gains Shar's Shadow Weave, we must also consider that both weaves are interwined with each of the two goddesses whereby the weave and shadow weaves are a very part of the two goddesses' existence, and Mystra absorbing Shar's Shadow Weave is roughly equivalent to fusing with Shar very self, and Shar is entirely negative based, and if Mystra is a balance of positive and negative, it is hard to percieve what will happen if these two goddesses fuse together through their weaves, either destruction of both which means end of Selune as well or the splitting of the fused Shar-Mystra back into the Shar and Mystra (as to maintain the balance of light and darkness) but such split is unlikely to be without consequences, Shar may gain back majority of her negative energies from the Weave and remain strong like the aftermath of the First War between Selune and Shar, and there is a strong likely possibility that the resulting Mystra and her Weave is diminished. |
May tymora's blessings be heaped on all |
Edited by - TymoraChosen on 22 Mar 2006 02:02:32 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2006 : 03:24:24
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Just because Shar has been around longer, it doesn't mean she's wiser and more cunning than Mystra. I once worked with a guy who was older than me and who had a lot more world experience. But the guy was an idiot, and was utterly unable to admit to his own mistakes, much less learn from them. He firmly believed that age equaled intelligence...
Further, Mystra taking control of the Shadow Weave would not necessarily mean a comingling of the Weave and the Shadow Weave. Indeed, how could this happen? One is the shadow of the other -- you can't merge something with its own shadow.
Mystra is the Weave, but the Shadow Weave is an artificial construct. There's nothing that says Shar is linked to it the way Mystra is linked to the Weave. Since Shar built the thing over the course of centuries, I'd say it very much exists independently of her.
The belief that Mystra taking the Shadow Weave would shift her to neutrality is because Mystra still is inclined to good, and the Shadow Weave is more inclined to darkness. Taking it over would cause Mystra to assume a more neutral aspect, because of the nature of the Shadow Weave itself. It has nothing to do with Shar, it's the Shadow Weave itself.
Heck, look at Kelemvor. Kelemvor had a stated preference for doing good deeds. And when he first took over as Lord of Death, his judgment of fallen mortals reflected this. But, when he finally wised up and more fully embraced his portfolio, he shifted all the way to neutral. It had nothing to do with Myrkul, Cyric, or Jergal's previous stewdardship of death, it was simply the nature of death itself that caused the shift.
That is why many people, myself included, think that Mystra taking the Shadow Weave would push out those last few remaining bits of good. |
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TymoraChosen
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2006 : 10:28:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Just because Shar has been around longer, it doesn't mean she's wiser and more cunning than Mystra. I once worked with a guy who was older than me and who had a lot more world experience. But the guy was an idiot, and was utterly unable to admit to his own mistakes, much less learn from them. He firmly believed that age equaled intelligence...
Perhaps...but given Shar's intelligence in thinking and creation of ingenious and creative stuff like the Fane of Shadows-nice armaments awaiting for any to take-and Weave Tap indicates she is quite smart afterall. I have not seen Selune or Mystra coming up with their own Fane of Light or Fane of Magic for their followers.
quote:
Mystra is the Weave, but the Shadow Weave is an artificial construct. There's nothing that says Shar is linked to it the way Mystra is linked to the Weave. Since Shar built the thing over the course of centuries, I'd say it very much exists independently of her.
If Mystra can cut off Weave access to certain people, then if Shar is not linked to the Shadow Weave, then how does Shar cut off access of the Shadow Weave to those shadow weave users? Unless the Shadow Weave is a sentient living thing that had its own whims and decide "who should I cut off access today?", how does Shar cut off mortals' access to the Shadow Weave if Shar is not linked to the Shadow Weave? Unless there is a waiting switch for Shar to pull in the Shadow Weave, that would almost be like any god as powerful as Shar would be able to pull the switch to cut off Shadow Weave access.
I certainly believe that if Mystra is linked to the Weave and can cut off Weave access with a thought, then if Shar is not linked to the Shadow Weave, then how does Shar cut off Shadow Weave access to Shadow Weave users (pointed out under Shar's descriptions in the Faith and Pantheons where Shar can cut off access to the Shadow Weave)if she is not linked to the Shadow Weave?
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May tymora's blessings be heaped on all |
Edited by - TymoraChosen on 22 Mar 2006 10:35:46 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2006 : 11:36:24
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quote:
Originally posted by TymoraChosen
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Just because Shar has been around longer, it doesn't mean she's wiser and more cunning than Mystra. I once worked with a guy who was older than me and who had a lot more world experience. But the guy was an idiot, and was utterly unable to admit to his own mistakes, much less learn from them. He firmly believed that age equaled intelligence...
Perhaps...but given Shar's intelligence in thinking and creation of ingenious and creative stuff like the Fane of Shadows-nice armaments awaiting for any to take-and Weave Tap indicates she is quite smart afterall. I have not seen Selune or Mystra coming up with their own Fane of Light or Fane of Magic for their followers.
Just because we've not seen it doesn't mean it's not happened. Nor does something like that indicate that any deity is smarter than any other.
quote:
Originally posted by TymoraChosen
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Mystra is the Weave, but the Shadow Weave is an artificial construct. There's nothing that says Shar is linked to it the way Mystra is linked to the Weave. Since Shar built the thing over the course of centuries, I'd say it very much exists independently of her.
If Mystra can cut off Weave access to certain people, then if Shar is not linked to the Shadow Weave, then how does Shar cut off access of the Shadow Weave to those shadow weave users? Unless the Shadow Weave is a sentient living thing that had its own whims and decide "who should I cut off access today?", how does Shar cut off mortals' access to the Shadow Weave if Shar is not linked to the Shadow Weave? Unless there is a waiting switch for Shar to pull in the Shadow Weave, that would almost be like any god as powerful as Shar would be able to pull the switch to cut off Shadow Weave access.
I certainly believe that if Mystra is linked to the Weave and can cut off Weave access with a thought, then if Shar is not linked to the Shadow Weave, then how does Shar cut off Shadow Weave access to Shadow Weave users (pointed out under Shar's descriptions in the Faith and Pantheons where Shar can cut off access to the Shadow Weave)if she is not linked to the Shadow Weave?
Any deity can cut off access to their portfolio. They control the portfolio, so they can control who accesses it. Lathander, for example, could keep the sun from rising on someone, if he so chose.
A portfolio is basically a job. Most are not intrinsically linked to the deity that controls them. Mystra is a special case, in regards to the Weave. She doesn't just control it, it is a part of her. Other deities are not linked to their portfolios the way she is linked to that one -- if they were, then portfolios couldn't be shuffled among living deities as we sometimes see.
There is no evidence that Shar is linked to the Shadow Weave the way Mystra is linked to the Weave. Since it is something she built, that makes it even less likely. Therefore, control of it -- and we already know, by canon, that Mystra wants to grab the Shadow Weave -- can't be linked to Shar. Mystra wouldn't be able to grab it, otherwise, without subsuming Shar. |
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TymoraChosen
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2006 : 01:06:22
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quote:
Originally posted by TymoraChosen
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Mystra is the Weave, but the Shadow Weave is an artificial construct. There's nothing that says Shar is linked to it the way Mystra is linked to the Weave. Since Shar built the thing over the course of centuries, I'd say it very much exists independently of her.
If Mystra can cut off Weave access to certain people, then if Shar is not linked to the Shadow Weave, then how does Shar cut off access of the Shadow Weave to those shadow weave users? Unless the Shadow Weave is a sentient living thing that had its own whims and decide "who should I cut off access today?", how does Shar cut off mortals' access to the Shadow Weave if Shar is not linked to the Shadow Weave? Unless there is a waiting switch for Shar to pull in the Shadow Weave, that would almost be like any god as powerful as Shar would be able to pull the switch to cut off Shadow Weave access.
I certainly believe that if Mystra is linked to the Weave and can cut off Weave access with a thought, then if Shar is not linked to the Shadow Weave, then how does Shar cut off Shadow Weave access to Shadow Weave users (pointed out under Shar's descriptions in the Faith and Pantheons where Shar can cut off access to the Shadow Weave)if she is not linked to the Shadow Weave?
quote:
Any deity can cut off access to their portfolio. They control the portfolio, so they can control who accesses it. Lathander, for example, could keep the sun from rising on someone, if he so chose.
A portfolio is basically a job. Most are not intrinsically linked to the deity that controls them. Mystra is a special case, in regards to the Weave. She doesn't just control it, it is a part of her. Other deities are not linked to their portfolios the way she is linked to that one -- if they were, then portfolios couldn't be shuffled among living deities as we sometimes see.
There is no evidence that Shar is linked to the Shadow Weave the way Mystra is linked to the Weave. Since it is something she built, that makes it even less likely. Therefore, control of it -- and we already know, by canon, that Mystra wants to grab the Shadow Weave -- can't be linked to Shar. Mystra wouldn't be able to grab it, otherwise, without subsuming Shar.
Which still doesn't answer my question how Shar and why Shar can cut off mortals' access to the Shadow Weave. The Shadow Weave is not mentioned in her portfolio, but it was mentioned to be her unique salient divine ability to cut off mortals' access to the Shadow Weave. If the Shadow Weave is Shar's portfolio, that would be understandable. But one big question, that is if the Shadow Weave is truly independent of Shar herself, then this meant that the Shadow Weave is a sentient living thing by its own right? Which is quite contradicting to Shar's unique salient divine ability to control the Shadow Weave access. If Mystra possess the unique salient divine ability to cut off Weave access, why can't Shar possess the unique salient divine ability to cut off Shadow Weave access even though the Shadow Weave is not Shar's portfolio? |
May tymora's blessings be heaped on all |
Edited by - TymoraChosen on 23 Mar 2006 01:07:47 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2006 : 02:18:21
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I passed this thread on to Ed, and here's his response:
Mystra IS the Weave. The Shadow Weave is an "echo" of the Weave, deriving its power by reflections and amplifications of the energy spillages of the Weave. As such, it's neither sentient nor controlable by anyone (Mystra's very existence prevents another deity from controlling it, and if Mystra attempted to control it, she would nullify it [think positive energy meeting negative energy] at the probable cost of destroying the Weave in the process (i.e. destroying herself). So neither Shar nor any other deity can truly control the Shadow Weave.
However, Shar can control access to the Shadow Weave, because she "set it up to be this way" when creating it. In other words, she created a door (which she controls the use of) opening into the heating ducts of an existing house controlled by Mystra, that she (Shar) can neither touch nor enter.
So saith Ed. TymoraChosen, does that help?
love,
THO |
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Shar vs. Guardians of the Weave
