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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31689 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2005 :  06:42:22  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

Hmm,

My problem with this is that Magic of Faerun and the FRCS says that the Weave is in everything living, dead, undead, inanimate, sky, soil, liquid, gas, solid, water, etc. If the Weave ceased to exist then what would happen to the things that is touched by the Weave?




Why would the absence of the Weave affect these things in any particular way? To use an in-game example, a dead magic zone is an area which is not touched by the Weave, a kind of blank spot. Yet, creatures, living things like plants and animals, air and other stuff can all exist quite merrily in a dead magic zone without needing to be part of the Weave. So basically, I don't see a problem here. The Weave is obviously a dormant, benign aspect of everything in Toril which can be accessed and activated by those who know how - just like the Force in the Stars Wars universe. Not having the Weave 'active' or not having the Weave around at all, just means you can't access it. Have I made myself totally unclear? Thought so.

-- George Krashos


Is the Weave the only component necessary for these aspects to exist within the Realms? In most cases, no. All these things, whether living or dead... liquid, gas, or solid... also exist because of other principles at work.

What has to be determined here, is rather what the effect (if any) the presence of the Weave in these aspects that Kuje listed above has upon the aspects themselves.

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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2005 :  06:52:20  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

Hmm,

My problem with this is that Magic of Faerun and the FRCS says that the Weave is in everything living, dead, undead, inanimate, sky, soil, liquid, gas, solid, water, etc. If the Weave ceased to exist then what would happen to the things that is touched by the Weave?




Why would the absence of the Weave affect these things in any particular way? To use an in-game example, a dead magic zone is an area which is not touched by the Weave, a kind of blank spot. Yet, creatures, living things like plants and animals, air and other stuff can all exist quite merrily in a dead magic zone without needing to be part of the Weave. So basically, I don't see a problem here. The Weave is obviously a dormant, benign aspect of everything in Toril which can be accessed and activated by those who know how - just like the Force in the Stars Wars universe. Not having the Weave 'active' or not having the Weave around at all, just means you can't access it. Have I made myself totally unclear? Thought so.

-- George Krashos


Is the Weave the only component necessary for these aspects to exist within the Realms? In most cases, no. All these things, whether living or dead... liquid, gas, or solid... also exist because of other principles at work.

What has to be determined here, is rather what the effect (if any) the presence of the Weave in these aspects that Kuje listed above has upon the aspects themselves.




Exactly. If the Weave has no effect on the things that it is present in, then why bother telling us that the Weave is present in those things because otherwise there's no point to print that if it has no effect on anything.

This is why we got into an arguement on the boards and why there's a conflict with the material because if its true that the Weave is present in everything then dead magic zones have to have more to them, since the Weave doesn't exist in dead magic zones.

So I'm trying to find out what happens to things that are infused by the Weave if it ceased to exist and something must happen since it is present in everything in Realmspace/Toril/Faerun and without it raw magic, which is supposedly needed for creation, ceases to exist.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

My Goodreads page: http://www.goodreads.com/kuje

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Edited by - Kuje on 27 Sep 2005 07:18:23
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Dargoth
Great Reader

Australia
4569 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2005 :  06:59:38  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

Hmm,

My problem with this is that Magic of Faerun and the FRCS says that the Weave is in everything living, dead, undead, inanimate, sky, soil, liquid, gas, solid, water, etc. If the Weave ceased to exist then what would happen to the things that is touched by the Weave?




Why would the absence of the Weave affect these things in any particular way? To use an in-game example, a dead magic zone is an area which is not touched by the Weave, a kind of blank spot. Yet, creatures, living things like plants and animals, air and other stuff can all exist quite merrily in a dead magic zone without needing to be part of the Weave. So basically, I don't see a problem here. The Weave is obviously a dormant, benign aspect of everything in Toril which can be accessed and activated by those who know how - just like the Force in the Stars Wars universe. Not having the Weave 'active' or not having the Weave around at all, just means you can't access it. Have I made myself totally unclear? Thought so.

-- George Krashos




But then theres that scene from Elaines novel Evermeet where the High mages damage the weave which kills all the Dragons and Elves in the area.

Using that example Id say that certain races (such as Elves and Dragons) could not exist without the Weave


“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”

Emperor Sigismund

"Its good to be the King!"

Mel Brooks

Edited by - Dargoth on 27 Sep 2005 07:00:48
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31689 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2005 :  07:04:48  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth

Using that example Id say that certain races (such as Elves and Dragons) could not exist without the Weave
But that doesn't take into account biological factors, evolution, and the necessary lifeforce which are also part of what sees both elves and dragons, exist in the Realms... along with humans and the other demi-races.

The existence (and presence) of the Weave "in" something cannot be the only reason why that something exists. Certainly the absence of the Weave will have a negative impact upon those races who rely much more strongly on the Weave than humans do... but we must not discount the other forces at work, even in a fantasy setting.

Just what does the Weave being "in" something... really mean?

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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

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Edited by - The Sage on 27 Sep 2005 07:08:46
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Dargoth
Great Reader

Australia
4569 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2005 :  08:49:05  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message
We'll weve had quite a few Realms authors state that while Human Wizards use the weave to cast spells Elves ARE PART of the Weave. You could argue that Elven souls may well be part of the Weave....

Id read that as being a Faerun without the weave would be a Faerun without elves. (and other races)

“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”

Emperor Sigismund

"Its good to be the King!"

Mel Brooks
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Gerath Hoan
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
152 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2005 :  13:24:23  Show Profile Send Gerath Hoan a Private Message
Hi Ed and THO,

I just finished reading the Waterdeep novel and i'd like to say just how much i enjoyed the story, as well as all the juicy Realmslore and details it provided. I also loved the dedication, for whilst i'm not that active a poster here, i do love Candlekeep and appreciate all that it, its Scribes, and all these willing authors do for the Forgotten Realms and its fans.

I had an odd request for THO as well... As you're the question master here, would you be able to find out if i still have any unanswered Realmslore queries for Ed? I honestly can't remember whether or not i've asked some of the FR questions i've had on my mind. Whilst the replies weren't necessarily directed at me, my questions about smoking, coffee and tea-drinking in the Realms have been covered already. But did i make a point of asking about Knighthoods in the Realms? How they were granted, what nations granted them, what duties were involved and what the common-folk thought of Knights in general? Is the romantic ideal of Chivalry alive and well in the Realms with many great adventurer Knights roaming the land?

Also, you may remember some time ago Ed posted a lot of useful info on what Manshoon was up to, who his common allies were and some helpful roleplaying notes. Well i was wondering if the same thing could be done for Hesperdan? I haven't read Hand of Fire yet, so i could be missing much lore, but i would be interested to read what his situation was in the Zhentarim and which faction he supports (is he a Fzoul supporter now, or does he rue the end of the good old Manshoon days?). Who are his agents and allies and who are frequent antagonists of his? Any character traits to bring out in Roleplay sessions would also be appreciated. Also, in very vague terms (not too tied to either 3.x or 2nd Edition rules, what type of character and what sort of level would he be?

Many thanks again to Ed and THO for all their hard work. Reading a new bit of Realmslore from the Master himself makes my day each and every time.

GH

Knight of the Order of the Keen Eye - Granted by Ed Greenwood, 30th January 2005

Edited by - Gerath Hoan on 27 Sep 2005 13:26:46
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2005 :  16:50:23  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth

We'll weve had quite a few Realms authors state that while Human Wizards use the weave to cast spells Elves ARE PART of the Weave. You could argue that Elven souls may well be part of the Weave....

Id read that as being a Faerun without the weave would be a Faerun without elves. (and other races)



As do I Dargoth. :) You aren't alone in thinking this.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

My Goodreads page: http://www.goodreads.com/kuje

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
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David Lázaro
Seeker

Spain
37 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2005 :  20:29:57  Show Profile  Visit David Lázaro's Homepage Send David Lázaro a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

So a DM who wants to change magic in his or her Realms campaign to a spell-points system, or back to the spell levels and descriptions of earlier D&D editions, or substitute magic systems from other games, or just “tinker” with the published spells, could readily use a “destruction of the Weave” catacalysm as an in-game reason for such alterations.


Funny... I've been thinking about that just when this message was posted and I read it after concluding that using a spell-points system would fit Realmsplay.

From the feeling of some of the Realms novels a spell-points system with fatigue (like the one in Unearthed Arcana seems more appropriate for Realmsplay. I remember a lot of passages with some magician or other exhausted for casting or sustaining a spell. The most recent I remember is the one in the introduction of City of Splendors where Khelben is sustaining some powerful magics with the aid of Laeral.

Would such a system suit best the novels feeling or do authors like Ed have the standard D&D mechanics when writing their descriptions? I know that Ed responded in the past that he tries to be faithful to the D&D rules when writing, but I've seen a lot of passages in the novels with tired spellcasters and too few (none I can remember) with wizards forgetting spells.

Would a system where wizards prepare a limited number of spells but can launch them as they see fit until their spell (weave?) points are expended fit the spirit of the Weave as designed originally by Ed? What about spellcasters getting fatigued when they expend half of they points? I was thinking of tweaking those rules so we can get more dramatic games where even a character can launch some more spells after exhausting its points pool but could be damaged, fall unconscious or maybe dead after that action.

If such a system doesn't fit realmsplay in your view, how is explained the actual rules system in terms of the Weave and Mystra? I've seen no description connecting the two systems together in any 3-odd sourcebook. What's more: now instead of forgetting spells like in second edition, a spellcaster is supposed to have prelaunched them when preparing. I'm finding more and more difficult to give good (and logical) explanations about that to some new players, and I don't want to just tell them: "Hey! See? This is just a game, so this mechanic is there so the uses or magic are balanced and fair." I understand that Mystra is the one that maintains the equilibrium in Toril through the Weave, but explaining a bard (in character, of course) that he can launch one first level spell and three cantrips, but that he cannot just go and launch six cantrips in a day is, well, difficult.

Sorry for the length. I'd like to hear Ed's opinion on these points that I'll try to resume again to:
  • Would a spell-points system that accounts for the fatigue of spellcasting fit the Realms?

  • If not, how is the standard D&D magic system (the one from v.3.5 with pre-launching) explained in terms of Mystra and the Weave?

Edited by - David Lázaro on 27 Sep 2005 20:33:52
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Nighthawk08
Acolyte

USA
13 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2005 :  20:55:52  Show Profile  Visit Nighthawk08's Homepage  Send Nighthawk08 an AOL message Send Nighthawk08 a Private Message
Kuje, according to the book Magic of Faerun, Mystra IS the weave. Shes also "died" 2 times already. The original form Mystral died when a wizard of old tried to take her power, so mystral killed herself to stop him. It also said that magic went crazy becaus she was gone. Then Mystra herself died during the Time of Troubles, and was made anew later on into Midnight, who just kept the name mystra. My personal interpetation of this is that Mystra is the personification of the weave. Kind of like how the Grim Reaper is considered the personification of death in real life. Thats why Mystra keeps on coming back and cant ever totally be destroyed with destroying the weave which is a part of everything so everything would be destroyed *pant pant*. So yeah, if a hardcore DM wants to totally revamp Faerun he can take away the weave.....but i dont know what would happen to magical creatures or magic itself.
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2005 :  21:11:34  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Nighthawk08

Kuje, according to the book Magic of Faerun, Mystra IS the weave. Shes also "died" 2 times already. The original form Mystral died when a wizard of old tried to take her power, so mystral killed herself to stop him. It also said that magic went crazy becaus she was gone. Then Mystra herself died during the Time of Troubles, and was made anew later on into Midnight, who just kept the name mystra. My personal interpetation of this is that Mystra is the personification of the weave. Kind of like how the Grim Reaper is considered the personification of death in real life. Thats why Mystra keeps on coming back and cant ever totally be destroyed with destroying the weave which is a part of everything so everything would be destroyed *pant pant*. So yeah, if a hardcore DM wants to totally revamp Faerun he can take away the weave.....but i dont know what would happen to magical creatures or magic itself.



I know all that. :) It's more of a what if game now... What if Mystra died and the Weave was never reformed. What would happen to Realmspace/Toril/Faerun. Especially Toril since Toril is Chauntea.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

My Goodreads page: http://www.goodreads.com/kuje

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Dargoth
Great Reader

Australia
4569 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2005 :  23:16:46  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by RevJest

quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth

I got the impression from Prince of Lies that the gods get locked in a certain way of thinking over a period of time.


I've seen several references to Prince of Lies in canon game material.

In spite of the fact that ...

... the book is about the Prince of Lies, the book has the symbol of the Prince of Lies at the beginning of every chapter, the narrator is a servant of the Prince of Lies, and there are multiple instances of things being claimed in the book (such as the description of Zhentil Keep) that are patently false.

However, don't mind me. I'm sure Lord Cyric is pleased by his book being used as a reference for factual material about the Realms. :)

- RJ




I think your refering to The Trial of Cyric the madby Troy Denning which is told through the eyes of Cyrics Seraph of Lies. Im refering to Prince of Lies by James Lowder (Which Im pretty sure doesnt have a narrator)

“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”

Emperor Sigismund

"Its good to be the King!"

Mel Brooks
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30083 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2005 :  23:21:42  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by David Lázaro

Would such a system suit best the novels feeling or do authors like Ed have the standard D&D mechanics when writing their descriptions? I know that Ed responded in the past that he tries to be faithful to the D&D rules when writing, but I've seen a lot of passages in the novels with tired spellcasters and too few (none I can remember) with wizards forgetting spells.



This isn't a Realms example, but in one of the DL books, Par-Salian was worried about the effects of old age on his spellcasting. He specifically mentioned his worries over forgetting spells.

As a Realms example, in the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons comic, in the story arc where Kyriani split back into Kilili and Cybriana, there was an elderly wizard who couldn't remember the details of his spells. His halfling assistant had to recommend spells and tell him their effects.

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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe

USA
476 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2005 :  01:57:27  Show Profile  Visit Sanishiver's Homepage Send Sanishiver a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Exactly. If the Weave has no effect on the things that it is present in, then why bother telling us that the Weave is present in those things because otherwise there's no point to print that if it has no effect on anything.
The problem here is you're assuming the Weave is 'actively' effecting 'everything'.

This isn't the case.

The Weave can be a part of everything without necessarily supporting the existance of 'all things'. This means there is the potential for the Weave to effect something only.

You need something like mages or monsters with supernatural and spell like abilities in order for that potential to be realized (read: They Do Magic).

The trick, as always, is not to read the books too literally.

And please do be nice to the WotC posters. For all the crap said about them here, they're far smarter than most give them credit for and deserve just as much respect as anyone else.

J. Grenemyer

09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.

Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.

And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2005 :  02:18:25  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver

quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Exactly. If the Weave has no effect on the things that it is present in, then why bother telling us that the Weave is present in those things because otherwise there's no point to print that if it has no effect on anything.
The problem here is you're assuming the Weave is 'actively' effecting 'everything'.

This isn't the case.

The Weave can be a part of everything without necessarily supporting the existance of 'all things'. This means there is the potential for the Weave to effect something only.

You need something like mages or monsters with supernatural and spell like abilities in order for that potential to be realized (read: They Do Magic).

The trick, as always, is not to read the books too literally.

And please do be nice to the WotC posters. For all the crap said about them here, they're far smarter than most give them credit for and deserve just as much respect as anyone else.

J. Grenemyer



I'm not assuming anything because Ed has also said that it is the forces that make up Toril. Specifically March 22nd and November 22nd of last year.

Now before you get testy with me many of us know how you feel about me and so I'm not going to debate this with you but yes I read the books the way they are written.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

My Goodreads page: http://www.goodreads.com/kuje

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31689 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2005 :  02:58:22  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth

We'll weve had quite a few Realms authors state that while Human Wizards use the weave to cast spells Elves ARE PART of the Weave. You could argue that Elven souls may well be part of the Weave....

Id read that as being a Faerun without the weave would be a Faerun without elves. (and other races)



As do I Dargoth. :) You aren't alone in thinking this.

Yeah, I'd have to agree with that... at least to a point.

But it just doesn't seem enough. Even with the elves being a part of the Weave... it isn't the whole story here. It just doesn't take into account biological processes and the like. Even if an elven soul is connected to the Weave, he or she still needs oxygen to breathe in order to live in the Realms.

Getting back to Kuje's original questions... there has to be more to the whole concept of the Weave being "in" something, than it just simply being there.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31689 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2005 :  03:03:51  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by David Lázaro

Would such a system suit best the novels feeling or do authors like Ed have the standard D&D mechanics when writing their descriptions? I know that Ed responded in the past that he tries to be faithful to the D&D rules when writing, but I've seen a lot of passages in the novels with tired spellcasters and too few (none I can remember) with wizards forgetting spells.



This isn't a Realms example, but in one of the DL books, Par-Salian was worried about the effects of old age on his spellcasting. He specifically mentioned his worries over forgetting spells.
That's exactly right.

However I should point out that this was actually more due to the rigors of being a Wizard of High Sorcery, and the pressures of being a Conclave Master. Par-Salian later discussed his fears about the negative effects the advanced use of magic was having on his mind.

Fistandantilus is another example. It is argued that he exceeded Par-Salian in arcane ability... and that the bounds old Fisty broke... eventually eroded his mind.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2005 :  03:16:50  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message
Ed,

I feel a bit stupid asking this for Slime Lord but he asked me to ask you since it's turned into another debate.

So here's his question: if a character used the necromantic spell called Sanctify the Wicked that is in the Book of Exhalted Deeds, which is a good aligned spell, on a demon to redeem it and turn it good, would this be an evil act because it turns the demon good against it's will.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

My Goodreads page: http://www.goodreads.com/kuje

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
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Dargoth
Great Reader

Australia
4569 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2005 :  03:39:59  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

Ed,

I feel a bit stupid asking this for Slime Lord but he asked me to ask you since it's turned into another debate.

So here's his question: if a character used the necromantic spell called Sanctify the Wicked that is in the Book of Exhalted Deeds, which is a good aligned spell, on a demon to redeem it and turn it good, would this be an evil act because it turns the demon good against it's will.



Id say it wouldnt be an evil act because its not technically forced

"Trapped in the gem the evil soul undergoes a gradual transformation. The Soul reflects on passed evils and slowly finds within itself a spark of goodness"

The Evil soul itself seeks redemption

“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”

Emperor Sigismund

"Its good to be the King!"

Mel Brooks
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2005 :  03:47:48  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth

quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

Ed,

I feel a bit stupid asking this for Slime Lord but he asked me to ask you since it's turned into another debate.

So here's his question: if a character used the necromantic spell called Sanctify the Wicked that is in the Book of Exhalted Deeds, which is a good aligned spell, on a demon to redeem it and turn it good, would this be an evil act because it turns the demon good against it's will.



Id say it wouldnt be an evil act because its not technically forced

"Trapped in the gem the evil soul undergoes a gradual transformation. The Soul reflects on passed evils and slowly finds within itself a spark of goodness"

The Evil soul itself seeks redemption



More then a handful, and I'm one of them, agree with you but as usual with the Boards that Must not be Named this simple question has turned into a 2 page debate and so the original poster asked me to ask Ed. :)

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
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Posted - 28 Sep 2005 :  03:53:58  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth

quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

Ed,

I feel a bit stupid asking this for Slime Lord but he asked me to ask you since it's turned into another debate.

So here's his question: if a character used the necromantic spell called Sanctify the Wicked that is in the Book of Exhalted Deeds, which is a good aligned spell, on a demon to redeem it and turn it good, would this be an evil act because it turns the demon good against it's will.



Id say it wouldnt be an evil act because its not technically forced

"Trapped in the gem the evil soul undergoes a gradual transformation. The Soul reflects on passed evils and slowly finds within itself a spark of goodness"

The Evil soul itself seeks redemption



More then a handful, and I'm one of them, agree with you but as usual with the Boards that Must not be Named this simple question has turned into a 2 page debate and so the original poster asked me to ask Ed. :)

As do I. You can't support a statement like this unless you choose to ignore issues of mortality, fiendish behavior, and the established history of demons in the game of D&D.

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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5037 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2005 :  04:21:57  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Well met again, fellow scribes of Candlekeep. I bring you the first part of Ed’s reply to these queries from true fan Asgetrion: “I would like to ask about how guilds operate in Cormyr. As far as I can remember, this subject has been touched only very lightly in Realmslore. How are the guilds organized - is there a local guildmaster in every city? Is there possibly a grandmaster in Suzail for each guild? Do they only operate in cities or also in smaller towns? How many professions have guilds, and which ones? Can they be compared to the guilds of Waterdeep? Then, how about guild uniforms?”
Ed speaks:


Great questions! Okay, here we go:
The guilds in Cormyr have far less power and wealth than in Waterdeep, and are far “friendlier” to authority. They operate only in Suzail and the lands immediately around it (on the southern or Suzail side of the Starwater River, plus Hilp but minus Marsember), thanks to the rebellious histories of Arabel and Marsember (most of the guilds have “factors” [= trade agents and observers] in those cities, but no real power or organization) and the traditional resistance of nobles to anyone (even the Crown) “meddling unnecessarily” in life, customs, and matters befalling on “their” lands.

Guilds in Cormyr do the following things:
* Publicize a roster of members in good standing, intimating that all do work of the best standard, and agreeing that one member shall not hesitate to repair or maintain any item that is the work of another member (i.e. never telling a would-be customer: “Pooh! I can’t fix THAT! Utter trash; hurl it away and buy one of mine!”). (Most guilds also secretly try to fix prices, by at least agreeing on a ‘going rate’ for certain goods or services that members aren’t bound to, but will refer to when negotiating with clients. They do NOT have the legal right to set prices or even standards.)
* Agreeing on “approved” glues, finishes, and other materials, and (when members desire) precuring such things in bulk so as to get discounted prices to members (non-members will be charged a markup over “standard street prices”).
* Providing warehousing or materials storage facilities to members (most charters provide for immediate emergency storage for members who have been “burned out” of their own facilities, or otherwise prevented from using them - - and most guilds secretly provide one or more “secret locations” [accommodations not officially owned by or linked to the guild] for members to stash goods or themselves or apprentices wanted by the law for short periods, or being hunted by personal foes).
* Maintain, with the agreement of the Royal Court, precise and public definitions of objects, sizes, and amounts used by guild members in their trade (so one man’s “ferkin” or “ell” is the same as another’s).
* Support indigent former (retired) guild members, usually by a monthly measure of grain and ale and meat or fish, or a few coins in lieu (12 gp is the “monthly munificence” of The Guild of Coachlars, Carriers, Waymen and Locksters, but the Seafarers Guild doles out only 8 gp), or even by maintaining an “old bones lodge” (nursing home) for guild members (sometimes taking in non-members for stiff fees, to support the care of guild members who are charged little or nothing).
* Providing moneychanging and moneylending services to members in need, at set (always lower than “stranger in the market”) rates agreed-upon at guild meetings; most guilds also provide “secure” money storage for members, who often prefer such “silent” storage to banking coins with the Royal Court, where tax collectors can take note of amounts of funds specific individuals are handling.
* Providing (and insisting on the presence of) guild members as observers when caravans arrive for fairs at Jester’s Green or elsewhere around Hilp or “south of the Starwater,” or ships unload at the docks in Suzail, to see what cargoes are arriving, in which containers, and intended for sale where and to whom. This allows them to see if Court-approved guild measures are being adhered to, have a day or so of warning about price fluctuations due to oversupplies “flooding the market” or shortages developing because expected cargoes didn’t arrive, and so on.

Guilds in Cormyr may also unofficially do a lot of other things, from investing members’ profits to engaging in (or hiring others to perform) arson, vandalism, or theft against guild competitors or rivals. All guilds lobby against outlander peddlers or shipcaptains competing directly against a guild without adhering to the aforementioned Court-approved guild measures (amounts and sizes), and quite openly gather information as to who is trading in what goods, and argue before the Royal Court as to what guild shall have a say (“purview”) over a newly-introduced good or service (e.g. are harnesses for additional draft animals that are designed to be easily hitched into, or linked with, the harnesses worn by other animals already hitched to a coach or wagon properly to be administered by The Guild of Coachlars, Carriers, Waymen and Locksters, or by The Tanners and Leatherers?). Almost every guild charges its members fees, and its apprentices or would-be members higher fees than members are charged. The Royal Court must be kept fully informed of changes in these fees and of requirements for full membership, and Court officers aggressively investigate all complaints of apprentices or trial members being prevented from (or facing unusual difficulties in) acquiring full membership. The Crown prohibits non-Cormyreans, and Cormyreans of noble or royal blood, from being guildmasters; most guilds prohibit persons who don’t own land in Cormyr from being guild members. Crown law prevents race or gender from having any part in guild membership rules.
Almost every guild tries to control the professional behaviour of its members in some way, either through formal rules or through informal secret edicts and temporary boycotts (e.g. “No member of The Vintners and Falconers Guild is to trade with any member of The Brewers and Cheesemakers Guild until further notice from the Grand Hooded Vintner [guildmaster]”).

Guilds are formed by successful petition to the Crown: a royal charter is granted that sets forth membership requirements, founding roster of members, rota of officers, and guild rules. It includes the grant of a badge or “device” to be used by the guild (not a heraldic grant of arms, though the Heralds do keep records of these badges, and may also separately grant arms to guilds who desire and pay for a grant). All guilds are required to keep up-to-date formal rolls at Court and in their HQ, recording all changes in membership, rules and fees, and in this case “up to date” means “must reflect all changes fully and accurately within a tenday, or face stiff fines and a mark of censure.”
Two marks of censure against any guild means an automatic War Wizard investigation of all guild activities, taxes, and finances; six marks means the guild charter is forfeit. Marks are officially rescinded after investigation, never automatically removed after passage of time.



So saith Ed. I’ll bring you the second half of his reply (the list of current guilds) next time.
love,
THO
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe

Australia
313 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2005 :  08:44:57  Show Profile  Visit Zandilar's Homepage Send Zandilar a Private Message
Heya,

quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

Ed,

I feel a bit stupid asking this for Slime Lord but he asked me to ask you since it's turned into another debate.


I doubt Ed can do more than give his opinion, Kuje. IMHO this is a DM's disgression issue.

quote:

So here's his question: if a character used the necromantic spell called Sanctify the Wicked that is in the Book of Exhalted Deeds, which is a good aligned spell, on a demon to redeem it and turn it good, would this be an evil act because it turns the demon good against it's will.



I started a very similar thread in the Mature/Book of Exalted Deeds section of the Boards that Shall Not Be Named (the thread title was "Sanctify the Wicked... not good?"). In the end, there was no consensus.

The problem with the spell is that it has a single Will save. This Will save in no way reflects a choice made by the creature... Merely it measures it's resistance to the initial part of the spell (ripping the soul from the body and trapping it in a gem). Is it not remotely possible that the creature could choose not to turn Good in the course of the spell (12 months)?

The other problem I have with the spell is that if the creature is in the gem for 11 months and 30 days (one day prior to 12 months, is what I'm getting at), and the gem is then shattered - the creature remains Evil and, what's more, seeks out the caster for revenge. If there was a true choice on behalf of the creature, surely it wouldn't matter if the gem was shattered close to the end of the duration? IMHO, There should be a specific turning point where the creature gets another Will save that specifically reflects their choice in the matter, and then it doesn't matter after that if the gem is shattered.

I thought I had sorted all this out in my head, but it seems I'm still vacilating. Personally no character of mine would EVER use this spell, and as a DM I'd be loathe to let any Good character get away with using the spell without consequence (thank the gods that the spell can't just be cast willy nilly, because the caster must sacrifice a whole level each time).

Lastly, it's unclear whether or not this spell would work on a demon (or other Subtype Evil creature) - certianly the BoED makes an exception for Subtype Evil creatures in the "diplomatic conversion" section (ie: it won't work on Subtype Evil creatures). Personally, since the spell doesn't specifically exclude them, I'd allow it. Also, diplomatic conversion is so much bunkum IMHO, I don't think it's possible to change an evil creature that doesn't want to be changed in that fashion... at least not in the amount of time specified. (I don't have my books here to check the specifics of that.) Please note: I'm a big fan of the idea that Celestials can fall and Fiends can rise, so don't think that I don't believe it is possible for a fiend to turn good... I think it is possible, but the circumstances would have to be quite extraordinary and extremely rare.

Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~

As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.

The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4853 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2005 :  13:23:59  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message
Personally, I don't see what all the soul-searching angst is about re the "Sanctify the Wicked" situation. Quite simply you are making a creature that is inherently evil into something that is inherently good - where's the badness in that? Doing so against its will doesn't change what it is you are doing, and saying that doing so is a bad thing is like saying rehabilitating criminals is a bad thing because that occurs against their will also. Geez, people sure make themselves jump through hoops over at those 'other' boards.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2005 :  16:39:47  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Personally, I don't see what all the soul-searching angst is about re the "Sanctify the Wicked" situation. Quite simply you are making a creature that is inherently evil into something that is inherently good - where's the badness in that? Doing so against its will doesn't change what it is you are doing, and saying that doing so is a bad thing is like saying rehabilitating criminals is a bad thing because that occurs against their will also. Geez, people sure make themselves jump through hoops over at those 'other' boards.

-- George Krashos




Evidently it's an evil thing to do because you are taking away the demons free will and turning it good against said will.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

My Goodreads page: http://www.goodreads.com/kuje

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4279 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2005 :  17:03:56  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message
Hmm . If you are just changing sub-type that is one thing. Suculbus Paladin, retained the Evil subtype for example, it is different then changing alignment. Both however could indeed be considered a non good action without having consent. To be evil perhaps not, killing that evil goblin is not considered an Evil act, convert evil goblin to non evil is not evil. Just preventing them from doing Evil is generally considered a good act (if you kill or convert them).

The Sineater methord might be better, where traget after losing gets to choose a new path, is not listed as a evil ability.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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