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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Mar 2020 : 03:01:54
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Scattered lore between Descent Into Avernus and Baldur's Gate 3 point to something I'm not sure had been firmly established in the 5e era, post-Second Sundering lore prior: that Ao resurrected all/most of the dead gods, with the condition that they retreat from the world and interfere less. It's called out that Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul rejected this, and are instead manifested physically on Faerun with a cap on their power.
Was this known before these products? Do you think any other gods likewise refused and are now manifested avatars/demigods? This is the first actual 5e shakeup I've seen used for plot hooks, and it seems like it has a lot of potential.
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4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2020 : 03:28:33
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| Part of the reason I hate the whole "all the gods are back!" thing is because of Myrkul. 2E lore had him inhabiting the Crown of Horns and actively enjoying not being a god. Turning him back into a god takes away his potential, and this thing of "oh, he's a glorified avatar, instead" makes the whole thing make even less sense. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2020 : 03:34:57
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Yeah, this was the first time that I know of that they mentioned them back as gods but in "manifestation" form. I'd been saying for a while that one of the things I personally wanted to have happen was that many of these "dead gods" weren't dead but instead sent to Abeir for the last century. Ao sent them there ostensibly to protect the mortals, but they had to go over in an avatar/manifestation form. The real reason they were sent can be something else.
People keep telling me "that doesn't match the lore for Abeir", and my answer is "noone knows what was happening in Abeir after the spellplague except what we have from Erin's novels where some folks returned and we hear from their voice". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2020 : 03:45:40
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| This wouldn't fly at most tables, but "my character is [X obscure-ish god] returned in this new reduced avatar form" is a pitch that definitely has legs. It makes for a fantastic OUT in 13th Age or High Concept aspect in FATE. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2020 : 10:18:08
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| Bane resurrected himself in 3e under his own power, so why he wanted a demotion from the nigh omnipotence of greater deity hood is beyond me. |
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Renin
Learned Scribe
USA
290 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2020 : 14:39:29
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Scattered lore between Descent Into Avernus and Baldur's Gate 3 point to something I'm not sure had been firmly established in the 5e era, post-Second Sundering lore prior: that Ao resurrected all/most of the dead gods, with the condition that they retreat from the world and interfere less. It's called out that Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul rejected this, and are instead manifested physically on Faerun with a cap on their power.
Was this known before these products? Do you think any other gods likewise refused and are now manifested avatars/demigods? This is the first actual 5e shakeup I've seen used for plot hooks, and it seems like it has a lot of potential.
I had asked something real similar a month or 3 back, but yes, this was known before this products release, as per someone else telling me.
I... couldn't tell you which product originally said it though. Sorry on that regard. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2020 : 14:55:12
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Yeah, Ao's whole decision was to restore the gods, redistribute portfolios, and then put an end to the gods meddling and constantly fighting over portfolios. This means no longer directly meddling in mortal affairs, unless (and this was stated for the first time in a LYSK segment) you want to lose the perks that come with being a full-fledged deity, and turn into a killable demigod, like the Dead Three did.
That said, while meddling in mortals affairs is prohibited, interacting with mortals directly is not off the charts. Mystra is a blatant example, but so are Eilistraee and Vhaeraun--though they didn't appear to force mortals into some conflict, but merely to communicate. The Mulhorandi gods have always lived amidst their people in the form of manifestations, so for them this is nothing new. Lolth, OTOH, pulled Drizzt to her realm just to toy with him, which would conflict with Ao's decree, but RAS writes in Drizztland, not FR, so I guess this is like the exception that confirms the rule. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 06 Mar 2020 14:55:36 |
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lookatroopa
Acolyte
Netherlands
38 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2020 : 14:58:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Part of the reason I hate the whole "all the gods are back!" thing is because of Myrkul. 2E lore had him inhabiting the Crown of Horns and actively enjoying not being a god. Turning him back into a god takes away his potential, and this thing of "oh, he's a glorified avatar, instead" makes the whole thing make even less sense.
It might be in vain, but I'm holding out hope that Myrkul's "avatar" might well be the thing Nhyris was noted to have transformed into in Dungeon #200, so that there's at least some sort of throughline there. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2020 : 17:38:52
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Master Rupert,
Yeah, this seems like a ToT light to me. I honestly don't see what kind of good story can come from this in light of the fact that it contravenes the entire history of the Dead Three. Those three once mortals were wanting godhood to bad they went right to the throne of Jergal (fortunately he was in a tired mood that day, boys and girls). It does seems preposterous that they would want less, with the exception of Myrkul going his route with the Crown of Horns which really did seem like him with a game plan.
Agreed that the manifestation is just silliness. I for the life of me cannot figure out what they are thinking of in their brainstorming sessions.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Part of the reason I hate the whole "all the gods are back!" thing is because of Myrkul. 2E lore had him inhabiting the Crown of Horns and actively enjoying not being a god. Turning him back into a god takes away his potential, and this thing of "oh, he's a glorified avatar, instead" makes the whole thing make even less sense.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2020 : 17:42:12
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Great Reader sleyvas,
I get your point there in that no one knows what was going on in Abeir for the last 100 years, but I don't know how that would impact the decision to have the Dead Three go into uber mortal mode again (demi-god, whatever: much more easily killed though). They just got back. Why they wouldn't accept Ao's rules is beyond me, because they are just putting themselves in a position of getting killed again, and then all of this was for naught.
Those portfolio's were massively powerful portfolio's, and I can see them very much wanting them back. They didn't even have them for a long time. What, a few thousand years? That's nothing to a god.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, this was the first time that I know of that they mentioned them back as gods but in "manifestation" form. I'd been saying for a while that one of the things I personally wanted to have happen was that many of these "dead gods" weren't dead but instead sent to Abeir for the last century. Ao sent them there ostensibly to protect the mortals, but they had to go over in an avatar/manifestation form. The real reason they were sent can be something else.
People keep telling me "that doesn't match the lore for Abeir", and my answer is "noone knows what was happening in Abeir after the spellplague except what we have from Erin's novels where some folks returned and we hear from their voice".
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2020 : 17:45:39
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Great Reader Irennan,
This is the one part I like: the gods pissing off and having to take 1,312 steps back. This petty involvement in an aggrandizement exercise to make certain characters be on the cool team because they get the attention is kind of low brow in my view. Gods should be so far beyond the mortals that at best, they are just mysterious and their manifestations of will through their faithful brings more validity to having that spiritual connection as priests do.
I do like this change. Though, this is how I have it already, except in highly unusual circumstances for my campaigns, i.e. Leira being "dead."
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Yeah, Ao's whole decision was to restore the gods, redistribute portfolios, and then put an end to the gods meddling and constantly fighting over portfolios. This means no longer directly meddling in mortal affairs, unless (and this was stated for the first time in a LYSK segment) you want to lose the perks that come with being a full-fledged deity, and turn into a killable demigod, like the Dead Three did.
That said, while meddling in mortals affairs is prohibited, interacting with mortals directly is not off the charts. Mystra is a blatant example, but so are Eilistraee and Vhaeraun--though they didn't appear to force mortals into some conflict, but merely to communicate. The Mulhorandi gods have always lived amidst their people in the form of manifestations, so for them this is nothing new. Lolth, OTOH, pulled Drizzt to her realm just to toy with him, which would conflict with Ao's decree, but RAS writes in Drizztland, not FR, so I guess this is like the exception that confirms the rule.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2020 : 17:51:54
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Seeker lookatroopa,
First off: great recall on that bit of lore.
Second: this makes me wonder if what Myrkul is doing is saying to Ao: I'm good, I'll take manifestation form, and by my actions make people believe in Myrkul again so hard and with so much fear that the belief elevates him to full godhood again by manner of action and will, and at that point keep myself separate from the edicts of Ao.
Any thoughts from anyone on that? Possible you think? If not, it sorts of loops back to the issue of, if you want godhood, but by taking it you have to follow the edicts of Ao, then why all of the silliness?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by lookatroopa
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Part of the reason I hate the whole "all the gods are back!" thing is because of Myrkul. 2E lore had him inhabiting the Crown of Horns and actively enjoying not being a god. Turning him back into a god takes away his potential, and this thing of "oh, he's a glorified avatar, instead" makes the whole thing make even less sense.
It might be in vain, but I'm holding out hope that Myrkul's "avatar" might well be the thing Nhyris was noted to have transformed into in Dungeon #200, so that there's at least some sort of throughline there.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2020 : 01:15:30
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| Wonder if this bargain isnt only for dead gods; Ao may well have said to everyone either play by these new rules or get demoted to physical avatar. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2020 : 11:13:44
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My take on this given Mystra's appearance in the post-Sundering era as well as a clue given during a WotC interview about the Dead Three making a "choice" to "stay", is that Ao's decree did not actually demote the Dead Three to mortal form, but rather restricted all the deities of Realmspace from projecting more than a single mortal avatar (into the crystal sphere of Realmspace that is) at any given time, to limit their threat to the Cosmic Balance.
It's a sacrifice to project a mortal avatar due to each deity having a limited number of projections, and the risks involved in creating such a vulnerable aspect. It is however not a total sacrifice as some might assume just from hearing that the Dead Three made a sacrifice.
Bane in particular would never give up his outer planes resources to be diminished down to basically how he was during the Time of Troubles.
Conclusion: the mortal Dead Three are not the main bodies, which are still out in the upper/lower realms.
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Edited by - Storyteller Hero on 09 Mar 2020 11:25:53 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2020 : 14:38:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Yeah, Ao's whole decision was to restore the gods, redistribute portfolios, and then put an end to the gods meddling and constantly fighting over portfolios. This means no longer directly meddling in mortal affairs, unless (and this was stated for the first time in a LYSK segment) you want to lose the perks that come with being a full-fledged deity, and turn into a killable demigod, like the Dead Three did.
That said, while meddling in mortals affairs is prohibited, interacting with mortals directly is not off the charts. Mystra is a blatant example, but so are Eilistraee and Vhaeraun--though they didn't appear to force mortals into some conflict, but merely to communicate. The Mulhorandi gods have always lived amidst their people in the form of manifestations, so for them this is nothing new. Lolth, OTOH, pulled Drizzt to her realm just to toy with him, which would conflict with Ao's decree, but RAS writes in Drizztland, not FR, so I guess this is like the exception that confirms the rule.
PERSONALLY.... as in what I would do.... that "it was their decision" piece I would say is a lie. Essentially, I would have there being lesser deities of all flavors roaming the realms in secret, hunting down items of power that they had buried, trying to regain followers, etc...
Does this go against the policy of the "gods won't interact with humans".... yeah, but lets face it, they never quite breaking that policy, and its been part of the realms forever.
This really works if LOTS of these deities are in this form. They shouldn't be openly ruling like Gilgeam (hmmm, Bane?) is, but rather having hidden sanctuaries and appearing in places periodically to perform "miracles" to gain followers or to capture some piece of power that they formerly held. In essence one could see the return of Mystra in this vein where she's been roaming the world collecting powerful magic items related to souls. Since her outer planar home has been destroyed, she and ALL the gods of magic may be secretly confined to Toril in some form. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2020 : 15:30:35
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader sleyvas,
I get your point there in that no one knows what was going on in Abeir for the last 100 years, but I don't know how that would impact the decision to have the Dead Three go into uber mortal mode again (demi-god, whatever: much more easily killed though). They just got back. Why they wouldn't accept Ao's rules is beyond me, because they are just putting themselves in a position of getting killed again, and then all of this was for naught.
Those portfolio's were massively powerful portfolio's, and I can see them very much wanting them back. They didn't even have them for a long time. What, a few thousand years? That's nothing to a god.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, this was the first time that I know of that they mentioned them back as gods but in "manifestation" form. I'd been saying for a while that one of the things I personally wanted to have happen was that many of these "dead gods" weren't dead but instead sent to Abeir for the last century. Ao sent them there ostensibly to protect the mortals, but they had to go over in an avatar/manifestation form. The real reason they were sent can be something else.
People keep telling me "that doesn't match the lore for Abeir", and my answer is "noone knows what was happening in Abeir after the spellplague except what we have from Erin's novels where some folks returned and we hear from their voice".
Senior Scribe Cpthero2,
I have a couple responses, so I'll try to kind of bullet them
First, the idea that 100 years is nothing to a god. I propose that this is untrue, even though many people say it. Many gods can only date themselves back to maybe 1000 years to 2000 years, and many can date themselves to even shorter timeframes. Many gods MAY date back longer, but that's not a certainty. Many name changes may have just occurred over time OR there may have been a reason for the name change.
Second, gods lie. If you were Bhaal, Myrkul, and Bane would it be better to say "yeah, I'm not as powerful as I was and I need to gain more power to get back my standing that I had" OR "Ao gave me a choice and I chose to be in this form because it makes me happy". I propose its the latter to SAY, but its more likely the former to be TRUE.
If this is in fact a lie, what a grand lie to re-empower a certain goddess of lies who has also returned (by that I mean Leira), and perhaps she is busily working to make this lie believed for many deities involved. For many deities, maybe even their followers don't realized their gods AREN'T in the outer planes. For instance, the god Deneir may not be in the house of knowledge anymore because he mixed himself up with the weave, so perhaps he's also in the realms in "manifestation/avatar" form.
There may also be SOME deities that are in the realms in a form that I refer to as "lesser avatar" form. This form is similar to that seen during the ToT where they're having to share a mortal's body still (said mortal must be willing), though said body might be something powerful (for instance, the body of Gilgeam if inhabited by Bane might be a hidden incarnation/lovechild of Gilgeam.
I would also point out that this concept of the gods being on Toril SOMEWHERE in manifestation form doesn't have to be in FAERUN. For that matter their power in Faerun versus elsewhere may be extremely limited (for instance Magnar the Bear and Relkath are being relearned of in the Yuirwood maybe, and perhaps in places like Ruathym) One of the ideas I've been putting forth is that the Metahel of Anchorome had their own "northmen" pantheon that mirrored the Norse Pantheon to a degree (you can see me talking about it in other threads). In that, I would propose that Helm/Heimdall/Hemdahl (Faerun name/Norse Name/Metahel Name) might be the same beings, and that Tyr/Tyr/Anachtar would be the same being, and that Valigan Thirdborn/Loki/Valigor the Runtborn Giant would be the same as a returned deity of Chaos who is trying to take down Cyric, Lathander/Frey/Faerthandir would be the same being, Magnar the Bear/Magni/Magnaer would be the same being, Relkath of the Many Branches/Yggdrasil/Raelkath Maneeboughs would be the same being, Leira/the "enchantress" of the marvel norse pantheon/Alaeralie may be the same being. Some of these beings might also have a slightly different "perspective" on how they're viewed between pantheons... for instance, Thoros of the Metahel, Ramman of the Untheric, and Talos might be a similar being, but the "portfolios" held by them within a different pantheon might change how they act or are portrayed by their worshippers.
But the main thing I was getting to in the above about the Metahel is that there may be a lot of "returned" Faerunian deities that are in manifestation form, but they're over in Anchorome, Katashaka, Lopango, the continent/islands to the west or north of Anchorome. Some might have manifestations in Osse, Zakhara, the Utter East, the island/continents to the west of Zakhara/east of Katashaka or even in Kara-Tur or the hordelands. There's no reason to believe that they're all hiding in Faerun, though they may appear there periodically to drum up worship energy. Their main worship centers may even be outsid e of Faerune. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2020 : 15:38:29
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Yeah, Ao's whole decision was to restore the gods, redistribute portfolios, and then put an end to the gods meddling and constantly fighting over portfolios. This means no longer directly meddling in mortal affairs, unless (and this was stated for the first time in a LYSK segment) you want to lose the perks that come with being a full-fledged deity, and turn into a killable demigod, like the Dead Three did.
That said, while meddling in mortals affairs is prohibited, interacting with mortals directly is not off the charts. Mystra is a blatant example, but so are Eilistraee and Vhaeraun--though they didn't appear to force mortals into some conflict, but merely to communicate. The Mulhorandi gods have always lived amidst their people in the form of manifestations, so for them this is nothing new. Lolth, OTOH, pulled Drizzt to her realm just to toy with him, which would conflict with Ao's decree, but RAS writes in Drizztland, not FR, so I guess this is like the exception that confirms the rule.
PERSONALLY.... as in what I would do.... that "it was their decision" piece I would say is a lie. Essentially, I would have there being lesser deities of all flavors roaming the realms in secret, hunting down items of power that they had buried, trying to regain followers, etc...
Does this go against the policy of the "gods won't interact with humans".... yeah, but lets face it, they never quite breaking that policy, and its been part of the realms forever.
This really works if LOTS of these deities are in this form. They shouldn't be openly ruling like Gilgeam (hmmm, Bane?) is, but rather having hidden sanctuaries and appearing in places periodically to perform "miracles" to gain followers or to capture some piece of power that they formerly held. In essence one could see the return of Mystra in this vein where she's been roaming the world collecting powerful magic items related to souls. Since her outer planar home has been destroyed, she and ALL the gods of magic may be secretly confined to Toril in some form.
Expand that out a bit -- maybe all of the "returned" deities are actually avatars, and are trying to re-earn their place in the Outer Planes. Some of them were able to re-ascend more quickly than others; some haven't re-ascended but claim otherwise.
Perhaps there wasn't any kind of a choice from Ao, other than "Hey, I'm giving you a second chance at divinity - use it or lose it" -- and some rival of the Dead Three decided to put some bad PR out there for them. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2020 : 15:49:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Yeah, Ao's whole decision was to restore the gods, redistribute portfolios, and then put an end to the gods meddling and constantly fighting over portfolios. This means no longer directly meddling in mortal affairs, unless (and this was stated for the first time in a LYSK segment) you want to lose the perks that come with being a full-fledged deity, and turn into a killable demigod, like the Dead Three did.
That said, while meddling in mortals affairs is prohibited, interacting with mortals directly is not off the charts. Mystra is a blatant example, but so are Eilistraee and Vhaeraun--though they didn't appear to force mortals into some conflict, but merely to communicate. The Mulhorandi gods have always lived amidst their people in the form of manifestations, so for them this is nothing new. Lolth, OTOH, pulled Drizzt to her realm just to toy with him, which would conflict with Ao's decree, but RAS writes in Drizztland, not FR, so I guess this is like the exception that confirms the rule.
PERSONALLY.... as in what I would do.... that "it was their decision" piece I would say is a lie. Essentially, I would have there being lesser deities of all flavors roaming the realms in secret, hunting down items of power that they had buried, trying to regain followers, etc...
Does this go against the policy of the "gods won't interact with humans".... yeah, but lets face it, they never quite breaking that policy, and its been part of the realms forever.
This really works if LOTS of these deities are in this form. They shouldn't be openly ruling like Gilgeam (hmmm, Bane?) is, but rather having hidden sanctuaries and appearing in places periodically to perform "miracles" to gain followers or to capture some piece of power that they formerly held. In essence one could see the return of Mystra in this vein where she's been roaming the world collecting powerful magic items related to souls. Since her outer planar home has been destroyed, she and ALL the gods of magic may be secretly confined to Toril in some form.
Expand that out a bit -- maybe all of the "returned" deities are actually avatars, and are trying to re-earn their place in the Outer Planes. Some of them were able to re-ascend more quickly than others; some haven't re-ascended but claim otherwise.
Perhaps there wasn't any kind of a choice from Ao, other than "Hey, I'm giving you a second chance at divinity - use it or lose it" -- and some rival of the Dead Three decided to put some bad PR out there for them.
That's EXACTLY what I've been proposing, and I know up above I proposed that these "manifestations/avatars" might be elsewhere on Toril, but I also won't even limit it to THAT. Some of them could even be on other WORLDS in realmspace. Some of them could be on the moon (perhaps even Leira is hiding there). There's a LOT of flexibility we could have with this as long as we accept the idea that A) gods cross pantheons and B) gods aren't JUST tied to Faerun or even Toril. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2020 : 15:54:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Yeah, Ao's whole decision was to restore the gods, redistribute portfolios, and then put an end to the gods meddling and constantly fighting over portfolios. This means no longer directly meddling in mortal affairs, unless (and this was stated for the first time in a LYSK segment) you want to lose the perks that come with being a full-fledged deity, and turn into a killable demigod, like the Dead Three did.
That said, while meddling in mortals affairs is prohibited, interacting with mortals directly is not off the charts. Mystra is a blatant example, but so are Eilistraee and Vhaeraun--though they didn't appear to force mortals into some conflict, but merely to communicate. The Mulhorandi gods have always lived amidst their people in the form of manifestations, so for them this is nothing new. Lolth, OTOH, pulled Drizzt to her realm just to toy with him, which would conflict with Ao's decree, but RAS writes in Drizztland, not FR, so I guess this is like the exception that confirms the rule.
PERSONALLY.... as in what I would do.... that "it was their decision" piece I would say is a lie. Essentially, I would have there being lesser deities of all flavors roaming the realms in secret, hunting down items of power that they had buried, trying to regain followers, etc...
Does this go against the policy of the "gods won't interact with humans".... yeah, but lets face it, they never quite breaking that policy, and its been part of the realms forever.
This really works if LOTS of these deities are in this form. They shouldn't be openly ruling like Gilgeam (hmmm, Bane?) is, but rather having hidden sanctuaries and appearing in places periodically to perform "miracles" to gain followers or to capture some piece of power that they formerly held. In essence one could see the return of Mystra in this vein where she's been roaming the world collecting powerful magic items related to souls. Since her outer planar home has been destroyed, she and ALL the gods of magic may be secretly confined to Toril in some form.
Expand that out a bit -- maybe all of the "returned" deities are actually avatars, and are trying to re-earn their place in the Outer Planes. Some of them were able to re-ascend more quickly than others; some haven't re-ascended but claim otherwise.
Perhaps there wasn't any kind of a choice from Ao, other than "Hey, I'm giving you a second chance at divinity - use it or lose it" -- and some rival of the Dead Three decided to put some bad PR out there for them.
So, a second Avatar Crisis, but only with gods who have returned? Honestly, I kinda like it. I can also picture some of them not watning to return to the outer planes again, and would be fine roaming Toril--for a variety of reasons. However, I don't like that it opens the floodgates for WotC to off deities like flies, and bring the divine soap opera on the forefront again. Not that they won't do that if they want to, but still, it's like an invitation. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 09 Mar 2020 16:04:43 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2020 : 19:51:47
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| I, personally, would tie them all to Toril -- for the simple fact that they're going to need the larger population to be able to rebuild their powerbase. Most of the other worlds of Realmspace don't have anywhere near the population of the Realms, so they'd not be viable options for gaining enough worship to re-ascend. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2020 : 22:31:00
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My problem with this plot is that makes no sense at all. I mean, perhaps Bhaal and Myrkul were restarting from zero and needed to hunt for power, regain followers, etc... But Bane? The guy was at the top of the mountain in 4e. He had defeated and enslaved the entire Goblin pantheon and Tiamat (or at least one of her aspects). He was among the most revered gods of Faerūn. If we follow the 5e DMG, he became multi-spheric as well (as Bane is a recognized god in Nentir Vale, Exandria and any other worlds that use the Dawn War pantheon).
Why to sacrifice the power he already had in search of a potential power that may not be all that great, and with the risk of permanently lose the power he invested creating the mortal avatar? If it was unnecessary, then his "sending a demigod" makes no sense at all. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 09 Mar 2020 22:32:39 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2020 : 22:41:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
My problem with this plot is that makes no sense at all. I mean, perhaps Bhaal and Myrkul were restarting from zero and needed to hunt for power, regain followers, etc... But Bane? The guy was at the top of the mountain in 4e. He had defeated and enslaved the entire Goblin pantheon and Tiamat (or at least one of her aspects). He was among the most revered gods of Faerūn. If we follow the 5e DMG, he became multi-spheric as well (as Bane is a recognized god in Nentir Vale, Exandria and any other worlds that use the Dawn War pantheon).
Why to sacrifice the power he already had in search of a potential power that may not be all that great, and with the risk of permanently lose the power he invested creating the mortal avatar? If it was unnecessary, then his "sending a demigod" makes no sense at all.
To give an answer there.... because THAT Bane was Iyachtu Xvim. This NEW Bane is the original Bane. What happened to Xvim? Well, maybe when the original Bane came back, the fact that Xvim had stopped gaining worship in his own name made Xvim effectively deflate somehow (all his power toppled from beneath him, but it didn't go to the returned Bane... and maybe Xvim is out there plotting and hating on his father). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2020 : 22:59:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I, personally, would tie them all to Toril -- for the simple fact that they're going to need the larger population to be able to rebuild their powerbase. Most of the other worlds of Realmspace don't have anywhere near the population of the Realms, so they'd not be viable options for gaining enough worship to re-ascend.
I probably would too, but just for the sake of argument, Coliar is bigger than Toril (size G compared to size E). Granted, probably a lot of that is air since its composed of earth and water islands. Still, the aarakocra, lizard folk, and dragons (and possibly other sauroids) COULD be worshipping a Torilian deity under another name (Helm, Mask, Tyr, or even a Mulan god like Set, Horus, or Thoth, or even an esoteric god like Deneir COULD fit there). Again, I probably wouldn't do it, but... keep the option in the back pocket in case it DOES make a lot of sense for some god I'm not thinking about. For instance, some of the gods that "passed" were dwarven, some that have returned are dark elven, etc.. Speaking of which, I can definitely see Ghaunadar having a following on Glyth (though he didn't "return"). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2020 : 23:21:31
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Great Reader sleyvas,
Thank you as always for the well thought out reply!
quote:
First, the idea that 100 years is nothing to a god.
As I read your response, it got me thinking about the trade value of a god to its worshipers then. If the gods come and go so frequently as we've seen in a lot of the Realms history, and if many of the gods are so young in terms of building their power bases, etc., how much stock can the deities expect to get. PR campaigns against them would have started long ago by the educated who live and work in the halls of places like Candlekeep, Herald's Holdfast, the Spirit Soaring, and more. The lack of consistency in a deities very being around is more than enough to say to those that want to continue on in the afterlife, don't go with the weak ones, go with the ones that always stay around. So, if you are correct, and 100 years is not a small period of time for a deity, it would seem like faith would be pretty crappy in the Realms to me. I wouldn't want to worship anyone other than the most powerful then, to ensure that that deities realm isn't annihilated during yet one more conflagration of deific fighting. I can't argue with lore that 100 year is significant or not, but your ideas have merit towards deities being fleeting beings that come and go fast.
A good point for sure to consider!
quote:
Second, gods lie.
I certainly don't deny that. Though, it appeared to me that the primary reason for their compliance is they don't have a choice: Ao gave them an offer of one or the other. They could lie to followers, or anyone else, but I would think that their interests would mandate that they utilize their full power if they have it to ensure they don't lose access to their domains as they are at that point. They can't lie to Ao successfully though, and he seems intent on making sure that they do what he wants them to do, or hit the road. I definitely like the Leira angle. I really like that deity. Way underrated.
quote:
I would also point out that this concept of the gods being on Toril SOMEWHERE in manifestation form doesn't have to be in FAERUN.
I actually like the use of the other continents more than I do Abeir going away and being in hidden land until fill in the blank idea seems good. Anchorome, Osse, Katashaka, and others have been waiting for use for a long time. They literally had lots of landscape. So, I agree with that idea as to a manifestation or what not being elsewhere on Toril.
Great reply. Thank you much!
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader sleyvas,
I get your point there in that no one knows what was going on in Abeir for the last 100 years, but I don't know how that would impact the decision to have the Dead Three go into uber mortal mode again (demi-god, whatever: much more easily killed though). They just got back. Why they wouldn't accept Ao's rules is beyond me, because they are just putting themselves in a position of getting killed again, and then all of this was for naught.
Those portfolio's were massively powerful portfolio's, and I can see them very much wanting them back. They didn't even have them for a long time. What, a few thousand years? That's nothing to a god.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, this was the first time that I know of that they mentioned them back as gods but in "manifestation" form. I'd been saying for a while that one of the things I personally wanted to have happen was that many of these "dead gods" weren't dead but instead sent to Abeir for the last century. Ao sent them there ostensibly to protect the mortals, but they had to go over in an avatar/manifestation form. The real reason they were sent can be something else.
People keep telling me "that doesn't match the lore for Abeir", and my answer is "noone knows what was happening in Abeir after the spellplague except what we have from Erin's novels where some folks returned and we hear from their voice".
Senior Scribe Cpthero2,
I have a couple responses, so I'll try to kind of bullet them
First, the idea that 100 years is nothing to a god. I propose that this is untrue, even though many people say it. Many gods can only date themselves back to maybe 1000 years to 2000 years, and many can date themselves to even shorter timeframes. Many gods MAY date back longer, but that's not a certainty. Many name changes may have just occurred over time OR there may have been a reason for the name change.
Second, gods lie. If you were Bhaal, Myrkul, and Bane would it be better to say "yeah, I'm not as powerful as I was and I need to gain more power to get back my standing that I had" OR "Ao gave me a choice and I chose to be in this form because it makes me happy". I propose its the latter to SAY, but its more likely the former to be TRUE.
If this is in fact a lie, what a grand lie to re-empower a certain goddess of lies who has also returned (by that I mean Leira), and perhaps she is busily working to make this lie believed for many deities involved. For many deities, maybe even their followers don't realized their gods AREN'T in the outer planes. For instance, the god Deneir may not be in the house of knowledge anymore because he mixed himself up with the weave, so perhaps he's also in the realms in "manifestation/avatar" form.
There may also be SOME deities that are in the realms in a form that I refer to as "lesser avatar" form. This form is similar to that seen during the ToT where they're having to share a mortal's body still (said mortal must be willing), though said body might be something powerful (for instance, the body of Gilgeam if inhabited by Bane might be a hidden incarnation/lovechild of Gilgeam.
I would also point out that this concept of the gods being on Toril SOMEWHERE in manifestation form doesn't have to be in FAERUN. For that matter their power in Faerun versus elsewhere may be extremely limited (for instance Magnar the Bear and Relkath are being relearned of in the Yuirwood maybe, and perhaps in places like Ruathym) One of the ideas I've been putting forth is that the Metahel of Anchorome had their own "northmen" pantheon that mirrored the Norse Pantheon to a degree (you can see me talking about it in other threads). In that, I would propose that Helm/Heimdall/Hemdahl (Faerun name/Norse Name/Metahel Name) might be the same beings, and that Tyr/Tyr/Anachtar would be the same being, and that Valigan Thirdborn/Loki/Valigor the Runtborn Giant would be the same as a returned deity of Chaos who is trying to take down Cyric, Lathander/Frey/Faerthandir would be the same being, Magnar the Bear/Magni/Magnaer would be the same being, Relkath of the Many Branches/Yggdrasil/Raelkath Maneeboughs would be the same being, Leira/the "enchantress" of the marvel norse pantheon/Alaeralie may be the same being. Some of these beings might also have a slightly different "perspective" on how they're viewed between pantheons... for instance, Thoros of the Metahel, Ramman of the Untheric, and Talos might be a similar being, but the "portfolios" held by them within a different pantheon might change how they act or are portrayed by their worshippers.
But the main thing I was getting to in the above about the Metahel is that there may be a lot of "returned" Faerunian deities that are in manifestation form, but they're over in Anchorome, Katashaka, Lopango, the continent/islands to the west or north of Anchorome. Some might have manifestations in Osse, Zakhara, the Utter East, the island/continents to the west of Zakhara/east of Katashaka or even in Kara-Tur or the hordelands. There's no reason to believe that they're all hiding in Faerun, though they may appear there periodically to drum up worship energy. Their main worship centers may even be outsid e of Faerune.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2020 : 07:43:17
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| If anyone needs their next drow antagonist, Kiaransalee may well be physically incarnated somewhere in the Realms. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2020 : 15:03:10
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
If anyone needs their next drow antagonist, Kiaransalee may well be physically incarnated somewhere in the Realms.
Yeah, at one point we were discussing similarities between Kiaransalee, the Raven Queen, and the theoretically Babylonian/Sumerian/Untheric goddess Ereshkigal whose name is mentioned in the complete book of necromancers and also mentioned as a demon lord ruling a layer of the abyss (as is Nergal, her husband, though he is mentioned not as a full lord, so he rules beside someone else). It would possibly be interesting to mix these entities up and having them have human followers, drow followers, and hag followers who might all have things confused. At least two of them have been involved with name removal magics. All of them are vengeful. At least two of them have been portrayed with winglike appendages and possibly taloned feet. Having her returned as a manifestation/avatar on the Isle of Sahu (the Island of the Necromancer Kings from Complete Necromancer's Handbook) would be interesting, possibly sharing the body of a certain trapped person there in return for her release maybe. Far enough away to not destroy anyone's campaign, providing some Zakhara updates, etc... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2020 : 16:36:50
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| Wasn't Ereshkigal a noble lamia living in the Undercity of Unthalass, according to Old Empires? |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2020 : 17:29:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Wasn't Ereshkigal a noble lamia living in the Undercity of Unthalass, according to Old Empires?
There was that too. The question there becomes one of "was that a god or someone named after a god"... kind of like Torm that's in Shadowdale. There was also an Aasimar in 3e named after Nanna-Sin's wife. It could be another spin that the manifestation/avatar takes over the Ereshkigal there. She was named like the Queen of Tortures.
You know, I hadn't really put any stock into the title previously... but Queen of Torture. There was also the story of Loviatar ACTING like Inanna descending into the Underworld (with Cyric being lord of said Underworld that is named after Ereshkigal's domain). She was looking for her "sister" to be freed... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2020 : 17:45:23
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| As with anything related to Cyric, I consider that story just a blatant lie no worth any time pondering about, lol. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 11 Mar 2020 17:45:47 |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2020 : 19:49:44
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Master Zeromaru X,
haha, it is sort of hard to take Cyric seriously when you know he's lying about everything. It does sort of make you wonder how far that lie goes down the chain too, and therefore how much is to be discounted straight out. haha
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
As with anything related to Cyric, I consider that story just a blatant lie no worth any time pondering about, lol.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2020 : 02:26:16
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Cyric also ascended relatively recently, certainly long after the events of the myth in the Complete Book of Necromancers. The likely culprit is probably Myrkul.
Also, Vermissa in that same book seems to have been converted to Velsharoon's worship in recent years, since her picture appears near Velsharoon's entry in Powers and Pantheons.
Also, the actual Nergal, the god, is still alive and well in the Planes. It's only his Realms avatar that got shanked. He recently murdered Enki, IIRC. The demon lord Nergal seems to be entirely separate, much like the archdevil Nergal.
There are a lot of Nergals. |
Edited by - LordofBones on 15 Mar 2020 02:29:59 |
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5e - Dead Three and Ao's Bargain
