| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| keftiu |
Posted - 06 Mar 2020 : 03:01:54
Scattered lore between Descent Into Avernus and Baldur's Gate 3 point to something I'm not sure had been firmly established in the 5e era, post-Second Sundering lore prior: that Ao resurrected all/most of the dead gods, with the condition that they retreat from the world and interfere less. It's called out that Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul rejected this, and are instead manifested physically on Faerun with a cap on their power.
Was this known before these products? Do you think any other gods likewise refused and are now manifested avatars/demigods? This is the first actual 5e shakeup I've seen used for plot hooks, and it seems like it has a lot of potential. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 22 Mar 2020 : 21:44:28
Great Reader sleyvas,
I always give credence to Larloch before Tam. I could see Larloch doing that and Tam not having any ability to do anything to stop it.
Best regards,
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Mar 2020 : 21:40:35
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Maybe it wasn't Larloch trying to control Tam... Maybe there was something else in the artifact -- even the artifact itself -- and for his own reasons, Larloch handed the artifact over knowing that Tam wouldn't be able to withstand it.
I don't see Larloch trying to add Tam to his stable, though... I'm more inclined to think that Larloch simply had his own reasons for destabilizing Thay.
Now you got me curious both about the artifact and Larloch's stance toward Thay, which need not be mutually exclusive. Do you think Larloch may have wanted to absorb the wards in Eltabrannar like he did with Candlekeep and tried with Myth Drannor?
Still pondering the Eminence of Araunt. Besides Tam, the Eminence still would have to contend with Larloch and his gang, the Twisted Rune, and I would also add Shoon VII.
Or that he himself was hoping Tam would free Eltab from where he was bound (which was tied to the Athora and the abyssal section that's merged there as well) because Larloch himself hoped to do SOMETHING with the athora himself. His end goals don't need to be "for Mystryl"... and yes, even Larloch could have been getting played by the powers that be OR just have not had the full measure of what's there any more than anyone else. Misdirection and lack of information goes a long way. Main thing, I definitely see the change and it appears to have occurred around the time that Velsharoon ascended and is also around the time that Tam and Larloch supposedly met and Larloch gave Tam items.
When it comes down to THAT, we don't know, Tam may have known Velsharoon was close. Maybe he had goals to send Eltab against Velsharoon prior to Vel's ascension, OR he simply needed to calm down his fellow Zulkirs so he wasn't having to watch for their dagger in his back. Maybe he got jealous AFTER Vel ascended and got reckless. One thing I will note is that Velsharoon by having become a rebel Thayan a few centuries prior was lacking a lot of attention on himself and his goals and thus had a freer hand to move than Tam himself, making Velsharoon more agile prior to his ascension. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 22 Mar 2020 : 21:34:37
Learned Scribe Delnyn,
Well, it wouldn't be the first time that Tam has been made a fool of, haha. Velsharoon got to godhood. ;)
Best regards,
|
| Delnyn |
Posted - 22 Mar 2020 : 16:57:18
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Maybe it wasn't Larloch trying to control Tam... Maybe there was something else in the artifact -- even the artifact itself -- and for his own reasons, Larloch handed the artifact over knowing that Tam wouldn't be able to withstand it.
I don't see Larloch trying to add Tam to his stable, though... I'm more inclined to think that Larloch simply had his own reasons for destabilizing Thay.
Now you got me curious both about the artifact and Larloch's stance toward Thay, which need not be mutually exclusive. Do you think Larloch may have wanted to absorb the wards in Eltabrannar like he did with Candlekeep and tried with Myth Drannor?
Still pondering the Eminence of Araunt. Besides Tam, the Eminence still would have to contend with Larloch and his gang, the Twisted Rune, and I would also add Shoon VII.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Mar 2020 : 16:12:04
Maybe it wasn't Larloch trying to control Tam... Maybe there was something else in the artifact -- even the artifact itself -- and for his own reasons, Larloch handed the artifact over knowing that Tam wouldn't be able to withstand it.
I don't see Larloch trying to add Tam to his stable, though... I'm more inclined to think that Larloch simply had his own reasons for destabilizing Thay. |
| Delnyn |
Posted - 22 Mar 2020 : 07:16:08
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Doesn't work. He changed prior to the spellplague. That's why I say its the curse from the artifact the death moon orb. Note the wording, it doesn't say that Tam is immune, just that he won't perish because he's already undead. Its an artifact's curse too, so its not unbelievable that Tam would be affected. Perhaps in 1374 when he starts killing his fellow Zulkirs and the civil war starts, he has finally been fully affected and his "slide" to chaotic evil has occurred from NE to CE.
BTW, every time I hear the name "death moon orb"... I am compelled to wonder at the name itself. I have a feeling that it can be related to the shadow weave and Shar and possibly to the tears of Selune and possibly also the myth of Shar/Selune/Mystryl being created. The fact that it exploded during the Spellplague, when Mystra died and Shar tried to take on the weave but lost the shadow weave... it just works for me that the whole death moon orb being given to Tam by a Chosen of Mystryl and that the Tome of Fastrin the Delver being some embodiment of Leira over a ritual to attune the athora to a weakened Mystra to enable her to return to the world (or is it Mystryl that's returned? Or some weird tri-partite conglomerate of all 3 with the Simbul providing the necessary physical body/soul to return to the world?).
Sounds like Larloch played Tam for a fool. He gives Tam two artifacts to enslave the demon lord Eltab. Then the Death Moon Orb (which Larloch created) warps Tam's mind. Sounds to me Larloch was grooming Acquisition Lich #61 for his Spellweb. The #61 is notional of course.
Larloch then gets control of an eastern nation and a demon lord through his control of Tam. He can now excavate (renovate?) his old enclave of Jikisdur, which fell in eastern Faerun to the rough northeast of Thay.
Through Tam's control of Eltab, Larloch can enslave all those trapped demons in the Narfell ruins, and he gets two layers of concealment to boot. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Mar 2020 : 04:26:59
It randomly occurred to me today that there is a lot of focus on the DEAD Three, and not the Returned Three or Risen Three or anything like that... It's making me think that -- as I suggested earlier -- they didn't actually come back as deities, but only as avatars.
In fact... I've theorized for a while that Bane 2.0 is actually Xvim, masquerading as his father. What if the Dead Three are avatars of Xvim, another angle to get more power?
Or... As much as I don't like him, Cyric is likely the better candidate, here. The Dead Three are a way for him to continue to act in the world, with plausible deniability. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Mar 2020 : 04:19:23
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm actually considering the Eminence of Araunt, myself.
Doesn't work. He changed prior to the spellplague. That's why I say its the curse from the artifact the death moon orb. Note the wording, it doesn't say that Tam is immune, just that he won't perish because he's already undead. Its an artifact's curse too, so its not unbelievable that Tam would be affected. Perhaps in 1374 when he starts killing his fellow Zulkirs and the civil war starts, he has finally been fully affected and his "slide" to chaotic evil has occurred from NE to CE.
From Death Moon Orb
Curse. The alignment of the user of the Orb eventually shifts to
chaotic evil. The Orb also compels its user to greater and greater acts of evil until the user is infamous as a monster of complete wickedness and cruelty. Such individuals invariably perish in some fashion unless, like Tam and Larloch, they continue on as undead creatures and care not what others think of them.
BTW, every time I hear the name "death moon orb"... I am compelled to wonder at the name itself. I have a feeling that it can be related to the shadow weave and Shar and possibly to the tears of Selune and possibly also the myth of Shar/Selune/Mystryl being created. The fact that it exploded during the Spellplague, when Mystra died and Shar tried to take on the weave but lost the shadow weave... it just works for me that the whole death moon orb being given to Tam by a Chosen of Mystryl and that the Tome of Fastrin the Delver being some embodiment of Leira over a ritual to attune the athora to a weakened Mystra to enable her to return to the world (or is it Mystryl that's returned? Or some weird tri-partite conglomerate of all 3 with the Simbul providing the necessary physical body/soul to return to the world?).
Ah, but perhaps the Eminence had found Toril prior to the Spellplague. Perhaps the Eminence had even originated on Toril…
Sure, there's nothing that backs that up, but I like the idea. Really, the Eminence of Araunt was one of my fave concepts from the 4E era, though I never quite figured out how I'd respin them. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 22 Mar 2020 : 03:16:49
Master Rupert,
Well, I am trying my best to stick to the earlier stuff. :)
I am sure yours will turn out well with the Eminence of Araunt though. :)
Best regards,
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 23:34:42
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
(or is it Mystryl that's returned? Or some weird tri-partite conglomerate of all 3 with the Simbul providing the necessary physical body/soul to return to the world?).
Didn't Ed said it was Midnight but with full access to the memories of Mystra and Mystryl, and that Midnight somehow fears Mystryl, cuz she is a primal being?
I theorize this means Mystryl wasn't a human god before but something else, more Creator Races-thingy; and that Midnight must have unlocked access to the memories of that pre-human Mystryl before she was changed into a human goddess by the beliefs of the Netherese.
Anyways, I like your theories, but I would downplay Leira's role a bit, lol.
I've kind of gotten the feel that what they want is a nebulous "its a mixture". I like the idea that its a mixture of all 4 (including the Simbul) and that there's a quixotic control issue going on. She might lash out in anger at those who threaten magic. In essence this opens up the option for other gods of magic to take on a more prominent role. I also put more "gods of magic" in that role, with the standard 4 (Azuth, Savras, Leira, Velsharoon) then joined by some others (Deneir as a god of glyphs, spellbooks, scrolls, etc.. the Red Knight as a goddess of spell strategy... Karsus as a god of metamagic, sorcery, and blood related magic... Malyk as a drow god of wild and destructive magic<the original Malyk restored from Talos, not Talos> … Finder as a god of song magic... )
Yeah, I do love me some Leira. Honestly though, most of my theories could be written up when I think about it as "X god does Y and needs Leira to help disguise it". So, like when the Tome of Fastrin the Delver needs to be created to cover the ritual creation of a giant glyph with dread rings, that might be the work of Deneir, but then Leira helps turn it into something that fools Tam. I'm also fascinated with Mask and Leira working together, though possibly occasionally turning things to themselves at the other's expense. I picture them as lovers to a degree, but both being a bit selfish. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 22:48:35
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
(or is it Mystryl that's returned? Or some weird tri-partite conglomerate of all 3 with the Simbul providing the necessary physical body/soul to return to the world?).
Didn't Ed said it was Midnight but with full access to the memories of Mystra and Mystryl, and that Midnight somehow fears Mystryl, cuz she is a primal being?
I theorize this means Mystryl wasn't a human god before but something else, more Creator Races-thingy; and that Midnight must have unlocked access to the memories of that pre-human Mystryl before she was changed into a human goddess by the beliefs of the Netherese.
Anyways, I like your theories, but I would downplay Leira's role a bit, lol. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 20:19:57
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm actually considering the Eminence of Araunt, myself.
Doesn't work. He changed prior to the spellplague. That's why I say its the curse from the artifact the death moon orb. Note the wording, it doesn't say that Tam is immune, just that he won't perish because he's already undead. Its an artifact's curse too, so its not unbelievable that Tam would be affected. Perhaps in 1374 when he starts killing his fellow Zulkirs and the civil war starts, he has finally been fully affected and his "slide" to chaotic evil has occurred from NE to CE.
From Death Moon Orb
Curse. The alignment of the user of the Orb eventually shifts to
chaotic evil. The Orb also compels its user to greater and greater acts of evil until the user is infamous as a monster of complete wickedness and cruelty. Such individuals invariably perish in some fashion unless, like Tam and Larloch, they continue on as undead creatures and care not what others think of them.
BTW, every time I hear the name "death moon orb"... I am compelled to wonder at the name itself. I have a feeling that it can be related to the shadow weave and Shar and possibly to the tears of Selune and possibly also the myth of Shar/Selune/Mystryl being created. The fact that it exploded during the Spellplague, when Mystra died and Shar tried to take on the weave but lost the shadow weave... it just works for me that the whole death moon orb being given to Tam by a Chosen of Mystryl and that the Tome of Fastrin the Delver being some embodiment of Leira over a ritual to attune the athora to a weakened Mystra to enable her to return to the world (or is it Mystryl that's returned? Or some weird tri-partite conglomerate of all 3 with the Simbul providing the necessary physical body/soul to return to the world?). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 19:44:41
I'm actually considering the Eminence of Araunt, myself.
|
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 19:24:19
Master Rupert,
Velsharoon...
Irony.
Best regards,
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 19:08:51
My thinking is that it wasn't Tam, because it was rather a shift from the way he acted in prior editions. Sure, he could have been building up to something, but I think it's more fun to have some other power be the reason he was suddenly acting differently. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 18:18:11
Master Rupert,
I kind of like the idea of some sneaky stuff having happened, as long as there is a good story behind it, and not just a removal of yet one more character because they are trying to reduce lore in 5e. ;)
Cool idea though.
Best regards,
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 17:46:07
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader sleyvas,
Ah, thank you for the clarification. I see your point. I agree about what you said regarding Velsharoon in that case.
As to Tam's "redemption" I get your point there. Perhaps a storyline that gets him some of his good old fashioned common-sense back, as opposed to redemption? hahaha ;)
Best regards,
Maybe one where Szass Tam actually fulfills his original goals? Instead of being an Arthas knockoff, Tam manages to reunite Thay into a juggernaut...and then finds that he's desperately bored, so appoints a successor and vanishes.
Legend has it that Szass Tam still walks the streets of Thay in disguise, keeping watch over his people and brutally murdering anyone who threatens the internal strength and unity of That.
I've been wondering, of late, if it was really Szass Tam behind everything. Maybe something happened to him, and everything we saw was either an imposter or a magically-controlled Tam. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 15:32:22
Master LordofBones,
I could see him doing the murdering thing to keep it going.
That being said, I don't think he'd get bored. I think he would want to expand, make more of a name for himself, and from there with the name recognition, try to ascend and get Velsharoon out of the game. haha It would be cool if that happened.
Best regards,
|
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 15:30:22
Senior Scribe Mirtek,
Sadly, you are quite likely right. Sad, and pathetic, if true, and likely so.
Best regards,
|
| LordofBones |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 01:47:03
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader sleyvas,
Ah, thank you for the clarification. I see your point. I agree about what you said regarding Velsharoon in that case.
As to Tam's "redemption" I get your point there. Perhaps a storyline that gets him some of his good old fashioned common-sense back, as opposed to redemption? hahaha ;)
Best regards,
Maybe one where Szass Tam actually fulfills his original goals? Instead of being an Arthas knockoff, Tam manages to reunite Thay into a juggernaut...and then finds that he's desperately bored, so appoints a successor and vanishes.
Legend has it that Szass Tam still walks the streets of Thay in disguise, keeping watch over his people and brutally murdering anyone who threatens the internal strength and unity of That. |
| Mirtek |
Posted - 20 Mar 2020 : 16:43:10
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Bane resurrected himself in 3e under his own power, so why he wanted a demotion from the nigh omnipotence of greater deity hood is beyond me.
I do not believe that the 5e team even bothered to think of a good reason, they just thought it cool to have those three as fightable "mortal deities" and that was all the reason they needed.
So look forward to fight and kill them in BG4 or one of the BG3 expansions |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 19 Mar 2020 : 23:15:23
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I see. It seems I was confusing stuff.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Gaining "control" over this artifact could make a great campaign in modern day and might help the rebels who oppose Tam and might help return Thay back to its fiery roots.
Or help Tam to maintain the only evil land that is not an "evil magocracy of slavers #56" in the Realms safe from those pesky rebels... 
Anyways, I don't think the athora is necessary for the ritual, because there is no athora in Neverwinter, and before Tam tried to do his ritual in Thay, he attempted it in Neverwinter, but was stopped by the plot-armored Drizzt and friends. See the Neverwinter trilogy from the Drizzt's saga.
Granted, Neverwinter also has its own super source of energy (Maegera the Inferno), but this only implies that the ritual needs a huge source of energy, not that the athora is key to it.
Totally agree on the "needs a huge source of energy" thing. The athora was just one example that was supposed to be really huge. I picture the thing (well primordial) below Neverwinter (that spawned Volcanos and kept the city thawed even in winter) being of a higher power level than the "artifact" that I'm saying exists beneath Amruthar. Then again, the artifact beneath Amruthar and the "athora" may be actually related and may have just become "unusable" by the ritual because they became "attuned" to Mystra via the ritual (and therefore they can't be accessed by Tam anymore). In fact, maybe the "key" to the ritual is some kind of strong primordial fire energy source (because the artifact beneath Amruthar DOES have strong ties to Kossuth).
Speaking on THAT.... I wouldn't be surprised if Tam actually becomes interested in Maztica... specifically the Lopango, Land of Fire, peninsula. Since I did put a tharch in that area, that could make for an interesting little plot (especially since the areas that I've put them also have volcanos). We know from GHotR that this area was favored by Bazim-Gorag as well, who was and is an entity with links to fire. Thank you for discussing this with me, because now it has my mind spinning. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 19 Mar 2020 : 15:01:06
Great Reader sleyvas,
Ah, thank you for the clarification. I see your point. I agree about what you said regarding Velsharoon in that case.
As to Tam's "redemption" I get your point there. Perhaps a storyline that gets him some of his good old fashioned common-sense back, as opposed to redemption? hahaha ;)
Best regards,
|
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 19 Mar 2020 : 14:02:57
I see. It seems I was confusing stuff.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Gaining "control" over this artifact could make a great campaign in modern day and might help the rebels who oppose Tam and might help return Thay back to its fiery roots.
Or help Tam to maintain the only evil land that is not an "evil magocracy of slavers #56" in the Realms safe from those pesky rebels...
Anyways, I don't think the athora is necessary for the ritual, because there is no athora in Neverwinter, and before Tam tried to do his ritual in Thay, he attempted it in Neverwinter, but was stopped by the plot-armored Drizzt and friends. See the Neverwinter trilogy from the Drizzt's saga.
Granted, Neverwinter also has its own super source of energy (Maegera the Inferno), but this only implies that the ritual needs a huge source of energy, not that the athora is key to it. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 19 Mar 2020 : 13:31:54
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Wasn't Velsharoon already a god when Zalathorm (himself weaker than Szass Tam) kicked his sorry ass so hard he was still sore when the Simbul kicked his ass again?
I mean, becoming a god not always mean that the individual is powerful. Most gods of the pre-Dawn Cataclysm age were either sponsored (Torm, the Red Knight, Azuth, Velsharoon himself) or were at the right place at the right time (Cyric, Midnight, Kelemvor). As far as I know, no god in the current age of the Realms has ascended to godhood on their own power. And then, there is the fact that not all mortals want to become a god in the Realms, with Ao bossing them around all the time... I don't see the likes of Larloch or Tam wanting that kind of life, despite the lure of the power of a god...
Velsharoon and Zalathorm never fought. Velsharoon and the "red wizards" were forced from Halruaa prior to the formation of the red wizards of Thay. Even then he wasn't beat, but he foresaw a lot of Halruaan archmages also coming after him (and again, this would have been while his build wasn't the greatest... so he was weak). We don't know when he was born, and this might have been when he was in his 40's or so. He still has 5 and a half centuries before he ascends to godhood from this point. He may have even have been still not in his epic levels yet. These expatriate Halruaans then went on to help found Thay.
827 DR Year of the Sacrifi ced Fortune
The wizard Omm Hlandrar of Halruaa engages a Red Wizard named Velsharoon in a spectacular magical battle in the skies over the Shaar. The contest ends in a draw.
At some point afterward, Velsharoon was forced from Thay. I view this to be around the time of the Zulkirate getting formed and that Velsharoon actually lived several centuries without resorting to undeath. George Krashos developed some works on this which I like on the early history of Thay (there are portions of it that I'd like to modify like having Zhengyi and Jorgmacdon actually coming from Narfellian heritage, and maybe having some of the lore on Tam being thousands of years old being falsified propaganda... the one major change I'd make would be basically Ythazz Buvarr being a lich already and HIM being involved with Thayd long ago and that interacting with the athora advanced him from lich to demilich. I'd also have Ythazz having been STUCK in his phylactery for centuries at a time and that he was freed by Velsharoon. This makes more sense to me than Tam having been involved with Thayd long ago.) in "Tyrants in Scarlet". I recommend reading it, because I personally view Tam's magical ritual to "remake the world" as basically draining the "athora" mentioned in that article. To note, I also believe there are other similar powerful artifacts buried beneath portions of Thay, such as one tied somehow to Kossuth beneath Amruthar…. so the athora wasn't everything. This artifact beneath Amruthar "went quiet" after the ToT, but after the spellplague it "lit up" again since the 4e campaign set has the town on fire. Gaining "control" over this artifact could make a great campaign in modern day and might help the rebels who oppose Tam and might help return Thay back to its fiery roots.
P.S. in the above, I know some people may scream because I proposed some slight changes to George's ideas in Tyrants in Scarlet. I think we can all agree here that every sage has their own views, and I must also stress that I REALLY like this work except for a couple minor changes to give a little limelight to other famous wizards and also allow for some alternate developments for them (such as Ythazz Buvarr, Zhengyi, etc...). Oh, and I have plans for Jorgmacdon as well. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 19 Mar 2020 : 13:12:52
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader sleyvas,
quote:
Actually, by that point, I wouldn't say that he couldn't show Szass up.
I concur there. That is what I was saying to Master LordofBones. When I agreed with him, I was referring to exactly what you provided in great detail with Velsharoon's split focus on levels. It looks good, and is good, for RP, but for mechanical functionality, it is weak. Very weak. Szass Tam, before Velsharoon became a Demipower, would have been smoked by Szass Tam.
Out of curiosity, where did you get those detailed Velsharoon stats?
quote:
Honestly, I don't give Tam a lot of credit. His nemesis (Velsharoon) ascends to godhood over the very school of magic that Tam is "Zulkir" of.
I do. He stuck to his guns, he just screwed up with being so focused on that, and keeping Velsharoon down, that he didn't see another route for Velsharoon, which he did find and ended up ascending. I think it just means that the weaker guy found a weak link to hit Szass Tam with and it paid off. I still think Szass Tam is doing, for his own purposes, but he did lose the deity war, which is quite ironic.
Best regards,
Yeah, you didn't get what I was saying. I don't think Tam would have smoked him as a mortal. Those stats were my own. They weren't his demipower stats (which would have been more powerful than a level 32 character in my book... I view even the most minor god as more powerful than most archmages, but not necessarily by much, and even a pair of said archmages banding together might give a god a severe run for his money). We also differ on our viewpoint of Tam himself. My personal view is that prior to being infected by the cursed artifact, he was intelligent and contemplative, but after that... he's still very intelligent mind you... but some of his core motivations have been twisted and he's not the original Szass Tam anymore that we saw in the Dreams of the Red Wizards boxed set. The shifts were subtle at first to an outsider, and thus most don't even know the source of the issue. Non-canon, but I really feel it works. There could even be a "redemption" story arc in which he somehow removes the effects of the curse and returns to his old nasty but not totally megalomaniacal self. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 19 Mar 2020 : 10:18:17
Velsharoon and Zalathorm have never fought, and the most we have is that Szass drove Velsharoon from Thay, which isn't surprising as Tam had the advantage of two major artifacts and his innate lichdom while Velsharoon was still mortal. We don't even know if he fought the Simbul or died during Mystra's death and had his corpse crash into Aglarond.
The more chilling thought is that in that instant of Mystra's death, he pulled a grand theft me on the distracted Simbul, who no longer had her goddess's protection, and let his physical form be destroyed. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 19 Mar 2020 : 00:25:22
Wasn't Velsharoon already a god when Zalathorm (himself weaker than Szass Tam) kicked his sorry ass so hard he was still sore when the Simbul kicked his ass again?
I mean, becoming a god not always mean that the individual is powerful. Most gods of the pre-Dawn Cataclysm age were either sponsored (Torm, the Red Knight, Azuth, Velsharoon himself) or were at the right place at the right time (Cyric, Midnight, Kelemvor). As far as I know, no god in the current age of the Realms has ascended to godhood on their own power. And then, there is the fact that not all mortals want to become a god in the Realms, with Ao bossing them around all the time... I don't see the likes of Larloch or Tam wanting that kind of life, despite the lure of the power of a god... |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 18 Mar 2020 : 22:42:27
Great Reader sleyvas,
quote:
Actually, by that point, I wouldn't say that he couldn't show Szass up.
I concur there. That is what I was saying to Master LordofBones. When I agreed with him, I was referring to exactly what you provided in great detail with Velsharoon's split focus on levels. It looks good, and is good, for RP, but for mechanical functionality, it is weak. Very weak. Szass Tam, before Velsharoon became a Demipower, would have been smoked by Szass Tam.
Out of curiosity, where did you get those detailed Velsharoon stats?
quote:
Honestly, I don't give Tam a lot of credit. His nemesis (Velsharoon) ascends to godhood over the very school of magic that Tam is "Zulkir" of.
I do. He stuck to his guns, he just screwed up with being so focused on that, and keeping Velsharoon down, that he didn't see another route for Velsharoon, which he did find and ended up ascending. I think it just means that the weaker guy found a weak link to hit Szass Tam with and it paid off. I still think Szass Tam is doing, for his own purposes, but he did lose the deity war, which is quite ironic.
Best regards,
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Mar 2020 : 22:05:50
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader sleyvas,
That makes a lot of sense with the triple class. I mean, he was not as powerful as Szass Tam, and he knew it. So, when he was able to make the Ritual of Endless Night happen, he did. It was the only way to show Szass up.
Best regards,
Actually, by that point, I wouldn't say that he couldn't show Szass up. At the lower levels (say like 16) he was running around with a lot of abilities, but all lower in level. He only had to do a single level dip in binder (took a feat to do that) and a single level dip in dread necromancer. Then between anima mage and ultimate magus he was building all 3 classes (though binder never went beyond like level 11 binder). He also employed persistent spell and a lot of metamagic chicanery. So, he was prepared for a lot, and very defensive. Once he passed 20 the triple classing started to pay off. The build I had him with was as a level 32, and I figured if he could raise himself to be a god then this wasn't unbelievable.
Velsharoon the Vaunted, Lord of the Forsaken Crypt
5th wiz (note: 5th lvl gained after epic) / 1st dread necro/ 10th ultimate magus / 1st binder / 10th anima mage / 3rd loremaster / 2nd archmage
Honestly, I don't give Tam a lot of credit. His nemesis (Velsharoon) ascends to godhood over the very school of magic that Tam is "Zulkir" of. So, Velsharoon had had to leave the country a few centuries ago, but he turned the tables on Tam. Velsharoon may have even have personally contacted Tam after ascending... and maybe that's why Tam accepted a cursed artifact from Larloch like 3 years later that seemingly drove him crazy and acting like a megalomaniac. Tam then chased a ritual that I'm still not convinced would let him remake the world. I half wonder if he wasn't duped into enacting a ritual that drained the power of a major artifact in Thay and drain it into the weave (possibly kicking off the restoration of Mystra)…. because maybe the Tome of Fastrin the Delver was a huge lie set out as a "contingency" (possibly involving multiple gods of magic.... Mystra, Savras, Leira, and maybe even Deneir). Maybe even the reason Mystra told her Chosen to not turn on the red wizards had to do with her setting up this contingency. |
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