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Dargoth
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Posted - 19 Nov 2018 :  02:15:42  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic

WARNING CONTAINS DRAGON HEIST SPOILERS

The Cassalanters have sold their childrens soul to Asmodous for Material gain and when the Child reaches a certain age he claims the soul and then transforms their boldy into a Devil, this has already happaned to the Eldest child and time is running out for the remaining 2 children. There is an out for the remaining 2 children if the Cassalanters Sacrifice 1 Million gold and.... 100 Innocent people to Asmodous in exchnge for releasing their childrens souls...

So Im left thinking the "best" solution is for the Players to murder the children before they reach the age where Asmodous can claim them. While the children are dead there souls at least arent damned to the 9 Hells for all eternity.

Other potential options

Getting the Children to Pledge their souls to another deity before the contract runs out (Is there a minimum age for Pledging your soul to a deity)

Plane shifting the children to another plane or Gods realm where they'd ignore the terms of the Faustian Pact (CG Plane or deitiy would be ideal)


Thoughts? Anyone run this and if so what did the players do?

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Kentinal
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Posted - 19 Nov 2018 :  02:38:47  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Murder should never be an answer, there though might be inadvertent death as result of treatment.

The goal is to save a soul, being more important then the body.

The option of the children pledging their own souls interesting and might be possible. The children however one need to be of age of reason (That might be as young as twelve in the view of some). There however is a bug here, the children must be sincere in such a dedication and at a young age commitment of that degree of importance is had to make or keep.

There will be the remaining problem of if the parents manage to break their pledge to Asmodous, they will be billed in some way to replace the loss. Maybe their own souls if those or still free of Asmodous' claim already.

Exile for the entire family might work, however I suspect even other plane escape would result in pursuit. Asmodous will send others to extract punishment.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 19 Nov 2018 :  03:45:34  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd just scrap that entire idea.

If I was going to run the adventure, I'd swap out the family (because I liked Caladorn Cassalanter and don't like the idea of his family coming to this) and cut out the Asmodeus angle -- I think it's a needless complication.

I'd likely go with the Eltorchuls, and have them teetering on the edge of financial ruin. That family already has both a shady and a magical background, so you could still have them summoning fiends and such, and they'd still be likely to do anything to save the family name.

The whole thing becomes simpler that way, makes more sense, and doesn't needlessly and gratuitously involve a deity that was thrust into the Realms whilst the designers were busily culling the pantheon because there were too many deities. (Yes, I'm still bugged by that "logic," and I've less than no use at all for anything involving Asmodeus in the Realms. If this were a Chelish family in Golarion, that'd be another story)

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 19 Nov 2018 03:47:49
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Dargoth
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Posted - 19 Nov 2018 :  04:07:41  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

Murder should never be an answer, there though might be inadvertent death as result of treatment.

The goal is to save a soul, being more important then the body.

The option of the children pledging their own souls interesting and might be possible. The children however one need to be of age of reason (That might be as young as twelve in the view of some). There however is a bug here, the children must be sincere in such a dedication and at a young age commitment of that degree of importance is had to make or keep.

There will be the remaining problem of if the parents manage to break their pledge to Asmodous, they will be billed in some way to replace the loss. Maybe their own souls if those or still free of Asmodous' claim already.

Exile for the entire family might work, however I suspect even other plane escape would result in pursuit. Asmodous will send others to extract punishment.



Oh theres an out Clause built into the pact if they sacrifice 1 Million Gold coins and the lives of 100 Innocent people then Asmodous is willing to take them inliu of the Childrens souls and the parents are quite willing to go ahead with that theyve organised a mass poisoning of 100 of Waterdeeps Poor... but I dont see the PCs going ahead with that so even if the party defeats them then Asmodous will still claim the childrens souls.

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Kentinal
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Posted - 19 Nov 2018 :  04:20:54  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth

quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

Murder should never be an answer, there though might be inadvertent death as result of treatment.

The goal is to save a soul, being more important then the body.

The option of the children pledging their own souls interesting and might be possible. The children however one need to be of age of reason (That might be as young as twelve in the view of some). There however is a bug here, the children must be sincere in such a dedication and at a young age commitment of that degree of importance is had to make or keep.

There will be the remaining problem of if the parents manage to break their pledge to Asmodous, they will be billed in some way to replace the loss. Maybe their own souls if those or still free of Asmodous' claim already.

Exile for the entire family might work, however I suspect even other plane escape would result in pursuit. Asmodous will send others to extract punishment.



Oh theres an out Clause built into the pact if they sacrifice 1 Million Gold coins and the lives of 100 Innocent people then Asmodous is willing to take them inliu of the Childrens souls and the parents are quite willing to go ahead with that theyve organised a mass poisoning of 100 of Waterdeeps Poor... but I dont see the PCs going ahead with that so even if the party defeats them then Asmodous will still claim the childrens souls.



I saw that option, however if I believe two murders are bad, surely 100 murders are worst.

I can not see many good options for the PCs to save the children without becoming somewhat evil as well. Of course if PCs are powerful enough get Asmodous to release his claim, that might be an option.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 19 Nov 2018 :  05:05:05  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth

quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

Murder should never be an answer, there though might be inadvertent death as result of treatment.

The goal is to save a soul, being more important then the body.

The option of the children pledging their own souls interesting and might be possible. The children however one need to be of age of reason (That might be as young as twelve in the view of some). There however is a bug here, the children must be sincere in such a dedication and at a young age commitment of that degree of importance is had to make or keep.

There will be the remaining problem of if the parents manage to break their pledge to Asmodous, they will be billed in some way to replace the loss. Maybe their own souls if those or still free of Asmodous' claim already.

Exile for the entire family might work, however I suspect even other plane escape would result in pursuit. Asmodous will send others to extract punishment.



Oh theres an out Clause built into the pact if they sacrifice 1 Million Gold coins and the lives of 100 Innocent people then Asmodous is willing to take them inliu of the Childrens souls and the parents are quite willing to go ahead with that theyve organised a mass poisoning of 100 of Waterdeeps Poor... but I dont see the PCs going ahead with that so even if the party defeats them then Asmodous will still claim the childrens souls.



The book kinda glosses over how the Cassalanters intended to publicly murder 100 people and get away with it... Which is another reason I rather dislike that whole plot.

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Dargoth
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Posted - 19 Nov 2018 :  05:28:05  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wooly

Apparently there going to throw all the bodies into the gate to the Nine Hells which the money is thrown through

Kentinal
The party will be level 4 or 5 so their not going to be able to fight Asmodous for the Childrens souls

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sleyvas
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Posted - 19 Nov 2018 :  13:40:08  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Are we sure that there's no "early release" clause in that pact that says that if the "collateral" dies its soul isn't automatically forfeit to the hells?

The one big problem I have with this is the idea that the parents signed away the souls of the children. Did the children agree to it (and they may have been tricked into it)? In my book, the parents don't "own" the souls of their children. That being said, apparently its already happened to one of them, so something in the pact is holding. Do they actually give you the pact to read?

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 19 Nov 2018 :  14:19:23  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth

Wooly

Apparently there going to throw all the bodies into the gate to the Nine Hells which the money is thrown through




If that was in the book, I overlooked it...

But that's still a lot of work, and it still seems flimsy, to me. Surely someone would notice 100 people all disappearing without a trace from the same spot.

Even if some other entity was substituted for Asmodeus, the whole thing is still too much of a stretch for me. "We're going to sell our children's souls to dark powers, then murder 100 people, simultaneously, to get them back -- and hope no one notices anything."

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 19 Nov 2018 :  14:22:55  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


The one big problem I have with this is the idea that the parents signed away the souls of the children.


Yeah, that one REALLY bugs me, too. I think I'd be bugged by it even if I wasn't a parent.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Did the children agree to it (and they may have been tricked into it)?


IIRC, the kids are about to turn 9. The deal was made years previously.

I don't recall anything that states they're even aware of the deal.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

In my book, the parents don't "own" the souls of their children.


Agreed... Though I can see a Lower Plane baddie running with it, because it's a pretty vile thing to do.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

That being said, apparently its already happened to one of them, so something in the pact is holding. Do they actually give you the pact to read?



Nope, that would be too much flavor to ask for.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 19 Nov 2018 14:23:44
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 19 Nov 2018 :  15:54:42  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From what I recall about he'll, souls are of more value if given willingly. It's unlikely the kids gave themselves willingly therefore the souls have less value and given that it is asmodeus himself I would have thought he would only trade in the most valuable of souls (when I say valuable I mean unique - in being or circumstance).

Just my take, but as I'm biased against all post 3e stuff I'd be actively looking for problems

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Kentinal
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Posted - 19 Nov 2018 :  17:10:24  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This in part sounds like those deals that some constructed to cause a Paladin to fall.

Given two options that result in death of an innocent. That the Paladin must choose which evil act is less evil. A losing of grace no matter what. I dislike such traps and it is unlikely the players of your game will like such a trap either. Unless of course your players are playing evil to start with. However in that case you would not be looking for a way out of the trap.

As such I would remove or change these facts.

Other option could be having a church or some other NPC effect the cure. The PCs do not have enough power to solve this problem.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Wenin
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Posted - 19 Nov 2018 :  18:27:40  Show Profile Send Wenin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The contracts devils make are lengthy and should be considered cheat proof, except by the devil through the use of fine print.

If a devil has made a contract for the souls of the children, those souls are the devil's until the out clause is enacted.

Killing the children early shouldn't be a viable escape for the children's fate.

The only way to save the 100 people, and the 2 children, would be signing ANOTHER contract with the devil. That contract should be more lucrative for the devil.


Bottomline, one shouldn't deal with devils.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 19 Nov 2018 :  23:28:12  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wenin

The contracts devils make are lengthy and should be considered cheat proof, except by the devil through the use of fine print.

If a devil has made a contract for the souls of the children, those souls are the devil's until the out clause is enacted.

Killing the children early shouldn't be a viable escape for the children's fate.

The only way to save the 100 people, and the 2 children, would be signing ANOTHER contract with the devil. That contract should be more lucrative for the devil.


Bottomline, one shouldn't deal with devils.



Yeah, but ultimately, like I was saying... the souls aren't the "property" of the parents ( I say this with the caveat that I still need to read that section). I could see a viable contract in which the parents would agree to sacrifice their children. I could see a viable contract wherein the parents agree to give up their own souls if they don't sacrifice the children. But honestly, I can't see how one can "sell" another's soul. Of course, that doesn't mean that some devil might not try to make someone THINK they can do so, to encourage them down a dark path.... and maybe the parents even talked their eldest into giving up his soul to appease the devil.

Ultimately, I guess what I'm saying is that there may be a bit of bluff to this contract, and the best result would be to inform the children that they don't have to give up their souls, and then take them away from their parents. Then stop the plot of the parents as well to kill hundreds of people. Let Asmodeus take out whatever revenge he likes on the parents, but there's no reason for the children to die, and they can either become the responsibility of the adventurers, other family members, or an orphanage/foster home.

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Dargoth
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Posted - 20 Nov 2018 :  02:44:24  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Id say the Forgotten realms does treat Children and there souls as property which their parents have ownership/responsiblity of until the child reaches an age where they can make a decision for themselves.

It probably works the same way that in IRL various faiths Baptise children into their parents relgion even before there old enough to. Id say theres a cut off time where a child can legally make a decsion for themselves and I suspect thats why they set an age limit where Asmodous will collect the childrens souls so they will never be able to make their own decision

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George Krashos
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Posted - 20 Nov 2018 :  02:46:14  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Elaine's "Knights of Samular" short story in her Best of ... anthology deals with child soul issues and someone "trading them away". Seems to be a "thing" in the Realms.

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Ashe Ravenheart
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Posted - 20 Nov 2018 :  13:34:44  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, so you specifically CHOSE to run the darkest storyline of the book, picking the Cassalanters as the villains over classic villains Xanathar, Jarlaxle, and Manshoon?

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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TheIriaeban
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Posted - 20 Nov 2018 :  16:44:37  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth

Id say the Forgotten realms does treat Children and there souls as property which their parents have ownership/responsiblity of until the child reaches an age where they can make a decision for themselves.

It probably works the same way that in IRL various faiths Baptise children into their parents relgion even before there old enough to. Id say theres a cut off time where a child can legally make a decsion for themselves and I suspect thats why they set an age limit where Asmodous will collect the childrens souls so they will never be able to make their own decision



There is very likely a ceremony similar to the child's baptism for each deity in FR. That designates that being as a worshipper of that deity and they get the associated power from having that worshipper. Now, if the parents had baptized the kids, then deal or no deal, if the child's deity decided that they had first dibs on the kid's souls, Asmodous may be in for a fight. Once the child enters their majority (i.e. when they can make their own decisions), they can choose to go with a different deity and get baptized into that faith. Also, gods in a pantheon get power for each little prayer a being says so prayers to Tempus before a fight from non-worshippers adds up to some power (and he may even show up so that more non-believers will offer up prayers to him). A god will get more from a worshipper but every drop counts (and explains why gods of major events in a person's life such as war and death are greater powers even though they don't have more actual worshippers than other gods).

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TBeholder
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Posted - 20 Nov 2018 :  17:22:37  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Let me think about it.
A mortal is pledged to a deity (even as an initiated priest or holy warrior, not by third party), then turns stag and actively serves another deity, opposed to the first. The old boss can't get the former servant back. Yeah, like this never happened before.
What's the big difference?

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Elaine's "Knights of Samular" short story in her Best of ... anthology deals with child soul issues and someone "trading them away". Seems to be a "thing" in the Realms.

It may be a sign of Imitocattus Vulgaris, there seems to be a fat population of them around the "Thaumaturgists of the Shoal Reprints" office.

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TheIriaeban
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Posted - 20 Nov 2018 :  18:58:40  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That is someone choosing to abandon their old god. If the parents didn't undo the baptism (in effect, making that decision for the kids because the kids can't make the choice themselves), the original deity still has skin in the game. Now, is the deity going to care about 2 random kids? Probably not but if the DM decides on a divine intervention, that could be a way to get the players out of the moral conundrum of deciding to kill children. I don't remember any session we had being that dark but to each his own. The players will let the DM know if this kind of gaming is acceptable.

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Dargoth
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Posted - 20 Nov 2018 :  22:46:01  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

Okay, so you specifically CHOSE to run the darkest storyline of the book, picking the Cassalanters as the villains over classic villains Xanathar, Jarlaxle, and Manshoon?



At the moment Im tossing up between The Cassalanters (as written), Jarlaxle (Modfiied so hes operating out of the Crawling Spider Inn instead of his fleet and replace the submarine either with a cavern in the Underdark or Undermountain) or Make my own "Villian" in this case it will be an organisation revolving around Waterdeeps Dragons and their after the Staff not the gold, there where several Dragons and Dragon groups operating in Waterdeep in including the Confluence and at least one noble house as I remeber back in 3eds days)

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George Krashos
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Posted - 20 Nov 2018 :  23:00:32  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
It may be a sign of Imitocattus Vulgaris, there seems to be a fat population of them around the "Thaumaturgists of the Shoal Reprints" office.





Classic.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 21 Nov 2018 :  01:58:36  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth


At the moment Im tossing up between The Cassalanters (as written), Jarlaxle (Modfiied so hes operating out of the Crawling Spider Inn instead of his fleet and replace the submarine either with a cavern in the Underdark or Undermountain) or Make my own "Villian" in this case it will be an organisation revolving around Waterdeeps Dragons and their after the Staff not the gold, there where several Dragons and Dragon groups operating in Waterdeep in including the Confluence and at least one noble house as I remeber back in 3eds days)



If you go with that dragon idea, please share. I'm interested to see what you come up with.

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Dargoth
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Posted - 21 Nov 2018 :  02:50:47  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


If you go with that dragon idea, please share. I'm interested to see what you come up with.



I have a few ideas about

Speaking of which anyone know if Maarils Dragon Tower appears in any FR Product or Novel? Ideally Im looking for a Floor plan but failing that even a discription of the interior as flavor text in a novel would be handy

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George Krashos
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Posted - 21 Nov 2018 :  07:00:10  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Never been mapped out to my knowledge.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 21 Nov 2018 :  09:58:29  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that all we've ever gotten there was an external description.

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