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 When murdering 2 Children is the best solution...

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Dargoth Posted - 19 Nov 2018 : 02:15:42

WARNING CONTAINS DRAGON HEIST SPOILERS

The Cassalanters have sold their childrens soul to Asmodous for Material gain and when the Child reaches a certain age he claims the soul and then transforms their boldy into a Devil, this has already happaned to the Eldest child and time is running out for the remaining 2 children. There is an out for the remaining 2 children if the Cassalanters Sacrifice 1 Million gold and.... 100 Innocent people to Asmodous in exchnge for releasing their childrens souls...

So Im left thinking the "best" solution is for the Players to murder the children before they reach the age where Asmodous can claim them. While the children are dead there souls at least arent damned to the 9 Hells for all eternity.

Other potential options

Getting the Children to Pledge their souls to another deity before the contract runs out (Is there a minimum age for Pledging your soul to a deity)

Plane shifting the children to another plane or Gods realm where they'd ignore the terms of the Faustian Pact (CG Plane or deitiy would be ideal)


Thoughts? Anyone run this and if so what did the players do?
25   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
cpthero2 Posted - 28 Feb 2020 : 22:37:25
Great Reader Kentinal,

quote:
Murder should never be an answer


It depends on if we're really talking about murder or killing. The two are quite different depending on motive.

That being said: it depends on one's ethic. How are you analyzing the choice? Certainly you are not advocating that everyone perceives things the same way? I would also imagine you are not going to evaluate that kind of situation as being "evil" or "good" without justifying how such an ethical and moral evaluation came about?

For example: when John Allen Chau (a.k.a. the idiot who went and got killed on the Senegal Isles) went onto the Senegal Isles and was ventilated with arrows until he laid dead on the ground, some called it killing, others called it murder. How are we judging the Senegal tribesman? By Indian law? U.S. law since he was a U.S. citizen? Does anyone have the "right" or legal privilege to come after the Senegal for killing John? It's there land. Were they justified? Was it ignorance that led to the death, or absolute conviction based on their outlooks/values/ethics/morals?

Another example: when General Manius Manilius laid siege to Carthage in 149 B.C., citizens killed their kids out of kindness for what was to be visited upon them by the Roman's. The Roman's did everything they imagined too: raped, tortured, mutilated and killed everyone except the 50,000 slaves taken who had similar treatment.

Yet another example: At Laderan Banadero during WWII, Japanese soldiers and civilians committed suicide to the tune of thousands of people, including women with their infants by jumping off the cliffs because they had been told that "American devils were raping and devouring Japanese women and children." Of course, absolutely ludicrous, but they decided to end the lives of their children and themselves because they thought the alternative was worse.

The point is, sometimes mercy comes in crazy ways.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

Murder should never be an answer, there though might be inadvertent death as result of treatment.

The goal is to save a soul, being more important then the body.

The option of the children pledging their own souls interesting and might be possible. The children however one need to be of age of reason (That might be as young as twelve in the view of some). There however is a bug here, the children must be sincere in such a dedication and at a young age commitment of that degree of importance is had to make or keep.

There will be the remaining problem of if the parents manage to break their pledge to Asmodous, they will be billed in some way to replace the loss. Maybe their own souls if those or still free of Asmodous' claim already.

Exile for the entire family might work, however I suspect even other plane escape would result in pursuit. Asmodous will send others to extract punishment.

cpthero2 Posted - 28 Feb 2020 : 22:21:21
Great Reader Dargoth,

First off: that is a fantastic moral dilemma. I am going to read that book now. Awesome!

Best regards,





quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth


WARNING CONTAINS DRAGON HEIST SPOILERS

The Cassalanters have sold their childrens soul to Asmodous for Material gain and when the Child reaches a certain age he claims the soul and then transforms their boldy into a Devil, this has already happaned to the Eldest child and time is running out for the remaining 2 children. There is an out for the remaining 2 children if the Cassalanters Sacrifice 1 Million gold and.... 100 Innocent people to Asmodous in exchnge for releasing their childrens souls...

So Im left thinking the "best" solution is for the Players to murder the children before they reach the age where Asmodous can claim them. While the children are dead there souls at least arent damned to the 9 Hells for all eternity.

Other potential options

Getting the Children to Pledge their souls to another deity before the contract runs out (Is there a minimum age for Pledging your soul to a deity)

Plane shifting the children to another plane or Gods realm where they'd ignore the terms of the Faustian Pact (CG Plane or deitiy would be ideal)


Thoughts? Anyone run this and if so what did the players do?

sleyvas Posted - 21 Nov 2018 : 23:01:52
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
It is getting to the point of when I hear of a Manshoon clone dying, I hear a child's voice in my head saying "You killed Manshoon! You bastards."



LOL, makes me wonder what happened to all the others. For instance, did the one in Amruthar join the Thayan revolt, and will we secretly find out he's one of Tam's Zulkirs under another name (please shoot me if that becomes true)?
sleyvas Posted - 21 Nov 2018 : 22:50:42
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
It may be a sign of Imitocattus Vulgaris, there seems to be a fat population of them around the "Thaumaturgists of the Shoal Reprints" office.





Classic.

-- George Krashos



Okay gonna raise my hand and show my ignorance... WTH are you two talking about??? It almost sounds like a Cthulhu reference or something?
TheIriaeban Posted - 21 Nov 2018 : 17:10:55
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth

quote:
Originally posted by ElfBane

[quote][i]

I can't see Jarlaxle doing this. Admittedly, my interaction with Jarlaxle is based mainly on the RAS novels, but he strikes me as classic Neutral Evil. IOW, he does things for the money... OR if it will put down or embarrass the Llolth Prietesshood. The selling of childrens souls (unless it were going to be worth a lot of gold) seems to me to be beneath him.



The Child soul selling is specfic to the Cassalanters ending

The Dragon Heist module has 4 differnet final chapters depending on the Dms choice and they each have different motivations for pursueing the prize. The 4 options are: Cassalanters, Xanthar, Jarlaxle and a Manshoon clone



It is getting to the point of when I hear of a Manshoon clone dying, I hear a child's voice in my head saying "You killed Manshoon! You bastards."
Dargoth Posted - 21 Nov 2018 : 14:48:20
quote:
Originally posted by ElfBane

[quote][i]

I can't see Jarlaxle doing this. Admittedly, my interaction with Jarlaxle is based mainly on the RAS novels, but he strikes me as classic Neutral Evil. IOW, he does things for the money... OR if it will put down or embarrass the Llolth Prietesshood. The selling of childrens souls (unless it were going to be worth a lot of gold) seems to me to be beneath him.



The Child soul selling is specfic to the Cassalanters ending

The Dragon Heist module has 4 differnet final chapters depending on the Dms choice and they each have different motivations for pursueing the prize. The 4 options are: Cassalanters, Xanthar, Jarlaxle and a Manshoon clone
ElfBane Posted - 21 Nov 2018 : 12:28:08
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth

quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

Okay, so you specifically CHOSE to run the darkest storyline of the book, picking the Cassalanters as the villains over classic villains Xanathar, Jarlaxle, and Manshoon?



At the moment Im tossing up between The Cassalanters (as written), Jarlaxle (Modfiied so hes operating out of the Crawling Spider Inn instead of his fleet and replace the submarine either with a cavern in the Underdark or Undermountain) or Make my own "Villian" in this case it will be an organisation revolving around Waterdeeps Dragons and their after the Staff not the gold, there where several Dragons and Dragon groups operating in Waterdeep in including the Confluence and at least one noble house as I remeber back in 3eds days)



I can't see Jarlaxle doing this. Admittedly, my interaction with Jarlaxle is based mainly on the RAS novels, but he strikes me as classic Neutral Evil. IOW, he does things for the money... OR if it will put down or embarrass the Llolth Prietesshood. The selling of childrens souls (unless it were going to be worth a lot of gold) seems to me to be beneath him.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 21 Nov 2018 : 09:58:29
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that all we've ever gotten there was an external description.
George Krashos Posted - 21 Nov 2018 : 07:00:10
Never been mapped out to my knowledge.

-- George Krashos
Dargoth Posted - 21 Nov 2018 : 02:50:47
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


If you go with that dragon idea, please share. I'm interested to see what you come up with.



I have a few ideas about

Speaking of which anyone know if Maarils Dragon Tower appears in any FR Product or Novel? Ideally Im looking for a Floor plan but failing that even a discription of the interior as flavor text in a novel would be handy
Wooly Rupert Posted - 21 Nov 2018 : 01:58:36
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth


At the moment Im tossing up between The Cassalanters (as written), Jarlaxle (Modfiied so hes operating out of the Crawling Spider Inn instead of his fleet and replace the submarine either with a cavern in the Underdark or Undermountain) or Make my own "Villian" in this case it will be an organisation revolving around Waterdeeps Dragons and their after the Staff not the gold, there where several Dragons and Dragon groups operating in Waterdeep in including the Confluence and at least one noble house as I remeber back in 3eds days)



If you go with that dragon idea, please share. I'm interested to see what you come up with.
George Krashos Posted - 20 Nov 2018 : 23:00:32
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
It may be a sign of Imitocattus Vulgaris, there seems to be a fat population of them around the "Thaumaturgists of the Shoal Reprints" office.





Classic.

-- George Krashos
Dargoth Posted - 20 Nov 2018 : 22:46:01
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

Okay, so you specifically CHOSE to run the darkest storyline of the book, picking the Cassalanters as the villains over classic villains Xanathar, Jarlaxle, and Manshoon?



At the moment Im tossing up between The Cassalanters (as written), Jarlaxle (Modfiied so hes operating out of the Crawling Spider Inn instead of his fleet and replace the submarine either with a cavern in the Underdark or Undermountain) or Make my own "Villian" in this case it will be an organisation revolving around Waterdeeps Dragons and their after the Staff not the gold, there where several Dragons and Dragon groups operating in Waterdeep in including the Confluence and at least one noble house as I remeber back in 3eds days)
TheIriaeban Posted - 20 Nov 2018 : 18:58:40
That is someone choosing to abandon their old god. If the parents didn't undo the baptism (in effect, making that decision for the kids because the kids can't make the choice themselves), the original deity still has skin in the game. Now, is the deity going to care about 2 random kids? Probably not but if the DM decides on a divine intervention, that could be a way to get the players out of the moral conundrum of deciding to kill children. I don't remember any session we had being that dark but to each his own. The players will let the DM know if this kind of gaming is acceptable.
TBeholder Posted - 20 Nov 2018 : 17:22:37
Let me think about it.
A mortal is pledged to a deity (even as an initiated priest or holy warrior, not by third party), then turns stag and actively serves another deity, opposed to the first. The old boss can't get the former servant back. Yeah, like this never happened before.
What's the big difference?

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Elaine's "Knights of Samular" short story in her Best of ... anthology deals with child soul issues and someone "trading them away". Seems to be a "thing" in the Realms.

It may be a sign of Imitocattus Vulgaris, there seems to be a fat population of them around the "Thaumaturgists of the Shoal Reprints" office.
TheIriaeban Posted - 20 Nov 2018 : 16:44:37
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth

Id say the Forgotten realms does treat Children and there souls as property which their parents have ownership/responsiblity of until the child reaches an age where they can make a decision for themselves.

It probably works the same way that in IRL various faiths Baptise children into their parents relgion even before there old enough to. Id say theres a cut off time where a child can legally make a decsion for themselves and I suspect thats why they set an age limit where Asmodous will collect the childrens souls so they will never be able to make their own decision



There is very likely a ceremony similar to the child's baptism for each deity in FR. That designates that being as a worshipper of that deity and they get the associated power from having that worshipper. Now, if the parents had baptized the kids, then deal or no deal, if the child's deity decided that they had first dibs on the kid's souls, Asmodous may be in for a fight. Once the child enters their majority (i.e. when they can make their own decisions), they can choose to go with a different deity and get baptized into that faith. Also, gods in a pantheon get power for each little prayer a being says so prayers to Tempus before a fight from non-worshippers adds up to some power (and he may even show up so that more non-believers will offer up prayers to him). A god will get more from a worshipper but every drop counts (and explains why gods of major events in a person's life such as war and death are greater powers even though they don't have more actual worshippers than other gods).
Ashe Ravenheart Posted - 20 Nov 2018 : 13:34:44
Okay, so you specifically CHOSE to run the darkest storyline of the book, picking the Cassalanters as the villains over classic villains Xanathar, Jarlaxle, and Manshoon?
George Krashos Posted - 20 Nov 2018 : 02:46:14
Elaine's "Knights of Samular" short story in her Best of ... anthology deals with child soul issues and someone "trading them away". Seems to be a "thing" in the Realms.

-- George Krashos
Dargoth Posted - 20 Nov 2018 : 02:44:24
Id say the Forgotten realms does treat Children and there souls as property which their parents have ownership/responsiblity of until the child reaches an age where they can make a decision for themselves.

It probably works the same way that in IRL various faiths Baptise children into their parents relgion even before there old enough to. Id say theres a cut off time where a child can legally make a decsion for themselves and I suspect thats why they set an age limit where Asmodous will collect the childrens souls so they will never be able to make their own decision
sleyvas Posted - 19 Nov 2018 : 23:28:12
quote:
Originally posted by Wenin

The contracts devils make are lengthy and should be considered cheat proof, except by the devil through the use of fine print.

If a devil has made a contract for the souls of the children, those souls are the devil's until the out clause is enacted.

Killing the children early shouldn't be a viable escape for the children's fate.

The only way to save the 100 people, and the 2 children, would be signing ANOTHER contract with the devil. That contract should be more lucrative for the devil.


Bottomline, one shouldn't deal with devils.



Yeah, but ultimately, like I was saying... the souls aren't the "property" of the parents ( I say this with the caveat that I still need to read that section). I could see a viable contract in which the parents would agree to sacrifice their children. I could see a viable contract wherein the parents agree to give up their own souls if they don't sacrifice the children. But honestly, I can't see how one can "sell" another's soul. Of course, that doesn't mean that some devil might not try to make someone THINK they can do so, to encourage them down a dark path.... and maybe the parents even talked their eldest into giving up his soul to appease the devil.

Ultimately, I guess what I'm saying is that there may be a bit of bluff to this contract, and the best result would be to inform the children that they don't have to give up their souls, and then take them away from their parents. Then stop the plot of the parents as well to kill hundreds of people. Let Asmodeus take out whatever revenge he likes on the parents, but there's no reason for the children to die, and they can either become the responsibility of the adventurers, other family members, or an orphanage/foster home.
Wenin Posted - 19 Nov 2018 : 18:27:40
The contracts devils make are lengthy and should be considered cheat proof, except by the devil through the use of fine print.

If a devil has made a contract for the souls of the children, those souls are the devil's until the out clause is enacted.

Killing the children early shouldn't be a viable escape for the children's fate.

The only way to save the 100 people, and the 2 children, would be signing ANOTHER contract with the devil. That contract should be more lucrative for the devil.


Bottomline, one shouldn't deal with devils.
Kentinal Posted - 19 Nov 2018 : 17:10:24
This in part sounds like those deals that some constructed to cause a Paladin to fall.

Given two options that result in death of an innocent. That the Paladin must choose which evil act is less evil. A losing of grace no matter what. I dislike such traps and it is unlikely the players of your game will like such a trap either. Unless of course your players are playing evil to start with. However in that case you would not be looking for a way out of the trap.

As such I would remove or change these facts.

Other option could be having a church or some other NPC effect the cure. The PCs do not have enough power to solve this problem.
Gary Dallison Posted - 19 Nov 2018 : 15:54:42
From what I recall about he'll, souls are of more value if given willingly. It's unlikely the kids gave themselves willingly therefore the souls have less value and given that it is asmodeus himself I would have thought he would only trade in the most valuable of souls (when I say valuable I mean unique - in being or circumstance).

Just my take, but as I'm biased against all post 3e stuff I'd be actively looking for problems
Wooly Rupert Posted - 19 Nov 2018 : 14:22:55
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


The one big problem I have with this is the idea that the parents signed away the souls of the children.


Yeah, that one REALLY bugs me, too. I think I'd be bugged by it even if I wasn't a parent.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Did the children agree to it (and they may have been tricked into it)?


IIRC, the kids are about to turn 9. The deal was made years previously.

I don't recall anything that states they're even aware of the deal.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

In my book, the parents don't "own" the souls of their children.


Agreed... Though I can see a Lower Plane baddie running with it, because it's a pretty vile thing to do.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

That being said, apparently its already happened to one of them, so something in the pact is holding. Do they actually give you the pact to read?



Nope, that would be too much flavor to ask for.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 19 Nov 2018 : 14:19:23
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth

Wooly

Apparently there going to throw all the bodies into the gate to the Nine Hells which the money is thrown through




If that was in the book, I overlooked it...

But that's still a lot of work, and it still seems flimsy, to me. Surely someone would notice 100 people all disappearing without a trace from the same spot.

Even if some other entity was substituted for Asmodeus, the whole thing is still too much of a stretch for me. "We're going to sell our children's souls to dark powers, then murder 100 people, simultaneously, to get them back -- and hope no one notices anything."

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