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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 01 Nov 2017 :  20:23:37  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Could be - we have to reinterpret a LOT of older lore in the new mechanics of the universe.

So I was reading back through the thread - somehow its getting 'temporally screwed'. I don't know how, but there are entire posts I missed, and there are a couple I responded to immediately after, that now have posts between. WEIRD. The 'Elder Evils' apparently don't like their cover blown.

quote:
From BadCatMan's earlier post
"Making the most of pre-dawn light, your trusted followers prowl the edge of the battlefield in search of suitable terrain. They release their heavy burden in a level clearing, and quickly set about their most urgent task. Your Bloodforge is fixed into the earth before the first rays of golden light touch the spires of the enemy stronghold. To calm your nerves, you recite the principles of warfare as instructed by the Great Mage."


Going by this, and some stuff I've worked-out about the BF's (Bloodforges), and taking some (very bad) artistic license, I did a mock-up of how I think they should look in D&D/FR (even if it does NOT agree with the VG).

The Bloodforge Wars

I wish I could say that was 'quick & dirty', but it actually took me a really long time, finding a swivel mirror I liked, and then pasting the rest together (and extending the original are higher, which is why its just a washed-out mess at the top). Its not supposed to be pretty (I wish it was); I just wanted to give people the same picture in their heads that I now have.

I picture it being a two-sided 'mirror' (the Easterns seem to like these for magic) - one side absorbs energy, and the other produces 'basal', or rather, a Basal Golem, which is really like a 'Magick Elemental'. For normal operating conditions, the back of it faces the sun* (or some other power source), and the front produces a golem (picture a concentrated beam of energy, not unlike the beam of light when we use a magnifying glass to burn an.. errr... leaves). Eventually the golem is fully formed,steps off the pre-placed platform, and the next one begins to spawn. Depending on the energy source and power level of said source, determines how quickly you can make them. Going by stuff I said earlier, using it with regular old solar energy gives you one per day (we can tweak this - just throwing numbers out right now).

Eventually (evil) people come to realize any type of energy can be used, and if the Bloodforge is used as a 'seal' (backside facing toward the sealed creature/being), it will absorb power from the thing sealed away. HOWEVER, using anything other than the sun - as intended- could get you undesired results (like the golems developing their own personalities - and wanting freedom - over time). I recall we had considered the 'Awakened' aspect of this a great way of getting some Warforged (note the similar name) into the Realms. But instead of Warforged, the Realms has Bloodforged, because we are just kewl like that.

Who the heck knows? House Carnnith (EB) may actually be using something very much likeR's Bloodforges to make these things - its a well-guarded secret. Also, despite how prevalent they appear in the game, I think what they can do is way too overpowered for D&D (they are artifacts! In fact, each one should be unique). Whether we continue to tie them to the 'Five Kingdoms' or not, I think we should still limit it to five (how many 'sides' play at once in the B&M video game?) As artifacts, they are supposed to disappear after they've 'served their purpose', but something could be keeping them tied to the Ue, so they only reappear there, and they still have to be 'looked for' each time).


*I added the stuff about solar energy because it gives us a very simple method of describing the 'baseline' of the BFs, and I also really like that quote - the armies are waiting for sunrise to begin using the device. I realize its just meant to be narrative, but I ran with it. Going back to my original concept for these things ('Lifeforges'), they weren't meant to be evil; its like a gun, or magic - its how people use them that makes it evil.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 01 Nov 2017 :  20:35:45  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

just a thought.... Ghul Lords don't use the weave. They draw upon the negative material plane (although it kind of sounds like the shadow weave which didn't exist yet, in canon lore it is still technically the negative material plane).
You know whats weird about this?

They completely did away with the negative plane in 4e. In fact, I think they actually got rid of it in 3e. Yet the 3e lore around Eberron is focused (in part) on that - the 'negative' vs the 'positive' - two of those orbiting planes are just about those concepts and energies. Why would they eliminate the negative & positive planes (in 3e), and then have their "built form the ground-up around 3e" setting have them? Positive is just plain gone (its 'in the Heavens', I guess), and negative-energy stuff went to the Shadowfell, or what was just The Plane of shadows in 3e, which was all-pervasive (to the point WotC was making us gag on 'shadowstuff').

So now, with your post in mind, I am thinking there should be some 'big bad' (Orcus?) that is off-camera, and offering 'life eternal' to dying genasi, and the ones that chose it wind up as ghuls. like a Davey Jones thing (from PotC) - "Do you fear death? Swear eternal fealty to me and I can keep you in this world". We don't have lore even hinting at such a being, but now that know there is a hierarchy, i don't see why there can't be one. "Great ghuls" aren't so great - they are actually the 'common' ones. 'Soultakers' are the uncommon ones, and boss-around the Great Ghuls, and 'Withers' are the rare ones, who get to boss-around the Soultakers.

So who do Witherers listen to? In the lore, no-one, but that doesn't mean there isn't one we've just never heard about. We could make it Shar, but do we really want to go there... AGAIN?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 01 Nov 2017 23:06:16
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sfdragon
Great Reader

2209 Posts

Posted - 01 Nov 2017 :  23:02:02  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
they could answer to Myrkul

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 01 Nov 2017 :  23:11:28  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
At first I was going to jump all over that - it would pretty easy connecting that Castle of Al'Hanar in the Shaar to him and the early Raurindi (expatriate Zakharans).

Except, he just isn't ancient enough. He's a newcomer, compared to most Gods.

Unless Jergal was doing it before him, but then, to what end? Now that we 'know' what Jergal is, its become so much harder to use him (connect him to other stuff). What would an ex-Spellwaever want with an army of undead genasi? Use (sacrifice) them to empower some sort of Uber-Sundering to bring back his empire?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3166 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2017 :  00:14:18  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

At first I was going to jump all over that - it would pretty easy connecting that Castle of Al'Hanar in the Shaar to him and the early Raurindi (expatriate Zakharans).

Except, he just isn't ancient enough. He's a newcomer, compared to most Gods.

Unless Jergal was doing it before him, but then, to what end? Now that we 'know' what Jergal is, its become so much harder to use him (connect him to other stuff). What would an ex-Spellwaever want with an army of undead genasi? Use (sacrifice) them to empower some sort of Uber-Sundering to bring back his empire?


-Perhaps to somehow give him (or anyone else) some kind of empowerment in the Elemental Planes? Just like how in Game of Thrones "king's blood" is somehow more powerful when used in magic because it of a royal bloodline, perhaps the essence of Genasi can be used as some kind of catalyst to empower himself (or someone or something else) on the Elemental Planes.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2017 :  02:46:58  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Perhaps Jergal wants to obtain 'Primordial' status. Not sure what he'd do with that, but its probably not good.

Which of course ties in nicely to our Utter East musings.

I need to put more thought into Spellweavers and Illithids - I almost feel as if Spellweavers are to this universe what illithids are to the Elderverse (Far Realms).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7144 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2017 :  13:21:02  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

just a thought.... Ghul Lords don't use the weave. They draw upon the negative material plane (although it kind of sounds like the shadow weave which didn't exist yet, in canon lore it is still technically the negative material plane).
You know whats weird about this?

They completely did away with the negative plane in 4e. In fact, I think they actually got rid of it in 3e. Yet the 3e lore around Eberron is focused (in part) on that - the 'negative' vs the 'positive' - two of those orbiting planes are just about those concepts and energies. Why would they eliminate the negative & positive planes (in 3e), and then have their "built form the ground-up around 3e" setting have them? Positive is just plain gone (its 'in the Heavens', I guess), and negative-energy stuff went to the Shadowfell, or what was just The Plane of shadows in 3e, which was all-pervasive (to the point WotC was making us gag on 'shadowstuff').

So now, with your post in mind, I am thinking there should be some 'big bad' (Orcus?) that is off-camera, and offering 'life eternal' to dying genasi, and the ones that chose it wind up as ghuls. like a davey Jones thing (from PotC) - "Do you fear death? Swear eternal fealty to me and I can keep you in this world". We don't have lore even hinting at such a being, but now that know there is a hierarchy, i don't see why there can't be one. "Great ghuls" aren't so great - they are actually the 'common' ones. 'Soultakers' are the uncommon ones, and boss-around the Great Ghuls, and 'Withers' are the rare ones, who get to boss-around the Soultakers.

So who do Witherers listen to? In the lore, no-one, but that doesn't mean there isn't one we've just never heard about. We could make it Shar, but do we really want to go there... AGAIN?



No, in 3e there's still a negative energy plane. I had not noticed, but you are correct for 4e, it disappeared and at the same time the world suddenly filled with big black things similar to spheres of annihilation. Now, the Sundering occurred and the Negative energy plane is back. It is almost as if the negative energy plane merged with the shadowfell in 4e (similar to how the abyss got hurled into the elemental chaos?). Could it be that the feywild absorbed the positive energy plane during 4e?

Then again, some could say that this entry in the 4e DMG hints to the existence of the negative energy plane. Given that few living beings have ever gone to the negative energy plane and survived, it could easily be said that some believe that no one has ever been there.

[i]In addition, the souls of the dead—though they travel first to the Shadowfell—pass beyond it after a time. Some souls are claimed by the gods and carried to the divine dominions, but others pass to another realm beyond the knowledge of any living being. [i]

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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BadCatMan
Learned Scribe

Australia
326 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2017 :  14:40:46  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Meet Tartyron!
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tartyron
He likes kittens, long walks on the beach, and spreading chaos to challenge stagnant order. He's the most sympathetic of any character in black armour, horns, and skull mask. Of course, the campaign is order versus chaos, and chaos is neither good nor evil.

This campaign has the most "mythic", legendary feel of the five, so I'm tempted to say it could have occurred far back in history. But this is countered by the new northern or dwarven style runes warding his prison, making it contemporaneous with Northmen settlement like the other campaigns.

Given the repeated events of people of chaos freed from imprisonment in underworld tombs, first Tartyron and then his followers (peasant units only) I'm increasingly sure that, if you squint a lot and ignore the weird bits, wind forward several centuries, you could say Tartyron and his lot are the antediluvian fiends and undead imprisoned underground, as mentioned in the other sources.

Of course, a better candidate is the devil Ysdar, King of the Forgotten Ones, mentioned in Faces of Deception. Being devils, the alignment flips to law, not chaos. (Unfortunately, until the sources are fully reread and documented on the wiki, these discussions always feel to me like arguing with only half the facts.)

Anyway, stay tuned!

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Everyone does seem to be focusing on specifics a bit too much for a second rate source.

Stick with what we know about the region then alter the computer game to fit in with that rather than the other way around.


For my part, my focus is currently only on documenting the exact lore of the game for the wiki. I can't fix anything, but I can also just note discrepancies, move on, and let the reader decide.

The problem with these Realms-development discussions is we all have different tastes and ideas, different goals in mind, and pull in different directions. Sometimes we talk about the mechanics of bloodforges and basal golems, when they're ultimately a gimmick for gameplay. I'd rather provide the lore, settle what people want in the area, find what works and what's needed for a campaign, and see that used as a basis.

For example, basal golems basically are the warforged of Eberron. Living, intelligent golems, created at magical forges to serve in the armies of Five Kingdoms in a great war. If a PC wants to play a warforged, give them a bloodforged. The mechanics can be handwaved. Maybe they don't merge into a temple, tower, or whatever, but they are expended in building and operating one.

Mana, meanwhile, is a new system of magic, close in conception to the incarnum introduced in 3.5 edition. If a PC wishes to play a law-focused incarnate, then here is a possibility, with the Circle of Order to serve and chakras on standby with the Indian background.

This is a land with a lot of fuzzy bits that can and should be whatever anyone wants to be.

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3979 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2017 :  15:34:02  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Keep documenting the lore. I havent got the game or the time to play it but i need all the information i can get.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2017 :  17:24:34  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not going to worry about mechanics for now, and certainly not 3e mechanics. My assumption here is that mages of the south are all sorcerers, of one stripe or another.

The Lords of the Elemental Realms (Parsanic League) were probably Mages. It specifically says Tartyron was one of them, so unless we decide he was 'possessed' by something (it does say he 'took the name') - and I'd rather not go that route because nearby Tan Chin has beat that trope to death - he was human(ish), and became corrupted. Now, the Chaos stuff works great for us in light of the 4e/5e material, and it appears he was the Lord of Air. Thus, I would go with Pazrael (Pazuzu), who we now know was an obyrith (and there is our 'antideluvian horrors' connection), as the corrupting factor.

As for that other guy, Ysdar - he was probably someone summoned during the Bloodforge Wars, and then sealed-away. He may have been the reason for tartyron's ultimate defeat. when I read the lore - which I know is taken from two different 'sides' of the VG - it sounds like Tartyron was winning, but in the end, he was finally defeated. This may have even come post-war (but then we have to figure out who did that). If Ysdar was a huge help capturing and imprisoning Tartyron (devil vs 'demon'), then it would make the most sense that happened toward the end of the war, while the other 'Lords of the Realms' were still around and capable of such a thing. Then they seal Ysdar away as well (reneging on their bargain, probably, which is definitely why he is in such a cranky mood).

We have two problems, but if we put them together, they may solve each other. First, the lore goes both ways, because the outcome could have gone both ways. I like the idea that Tartyron 'won' and ruled the Realm for a time. I'd love to put that aside for a moment. Second, Tartyron was already BOUND when the scenarios start, thus, he was a former threat[ that returned.

What if Tartyron rose to power a bit further back in the timeline, like around -362 DR ('Year of the defilers' has a nice ring to it). Then in -339 DR the weave collapses and he is temporarily stunned/powerless, and 'his people' rise up and bind him beneath his own Bloodforge (because artifacts are one of the few reliable magics left when magic runs amok). The other Bloodforges are then scattered/hidden away throughout the Utter East. Later, Tartyron manages to break free, and we have the Bloodforge Wars (648-657 DR). It could have even been stupid adventurers hearing about an artifact and then removing it. The 'shattered stone' covering his prison would have been the cover of the Bloodforge, to hide it nature, and to bind the prison in such a way as making that the only 'exit'. As for the runes themselves - the Yehimals are right next door, and thats where FR dwarves originated, and they use runes as well. We could always throw at least one clan of dwarves in the area (in fact, the 'Realm of Lands' would work perfectly), and we wouldn't even need to explain their presence ("they've always been there").

As for Ysdar, there is nothing actually saying he was involved in the Wars, is there? He may have been summoned during Tartyrn's second rise and used to defeat him. Then he just stuck around (without knowing his story, I don't want to even assume anything else about him).

Pushing part of the storyline further back (as it should be, since Tartyron was already 'bound') means that we can either say Tartyron found the Blooforges and they are even more ancient then he (preferred, especially if we say Pazrael steered him toward them), or that he created them at that time (perfectly workable, but not nearly as interesting). Having Pazuzu and the Batrachi involved is so much more... Lovecraftian. And THAT helps us fit the current (or, as of of 2e/3e) state of affairs into the region - people getting all ugly and mutated (which I believe comes from the novel).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2017 :  17:41:31  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The difference between Warforged and Bloodforged - Bloodforged (Basal Golems) are a 'summoned' creature, very much like an elemental. Hence my thinking of them in that way (temporary, since you can turn them into other stuff). I think this is the 'base' creature (appropriate, since that's precisely what it is). Warforged are more like true golems, but with sentience. In order to make a golem, you have to first build it, and then 'turn it on' by summoning a primitive spirit to inhabit the body. Warforged are more complicated, because they eventually achieve self-awareness. So what if someone creates golem-like bodies (VERY much like Warforged), and then creates/summons the basal golem into it, thus creating a much more durable, longer-lasting (eternal?) type of Basal Golem - a 'Bloodforged warrior', or just Bloodforged. For all we know, that's the same process House Cannith is making them in Eberron (build suitable 'warrior' bodies, and then using some sort of arcane machinery to 'implant' the basal golem into it). Since I think the Basal golems are 'pure magic', and magic = 'life', it all works out. The Bloodforges themselves may have been prototypes for something the Imaskari built later on (although I would even say the Imaskari found them).

So Basal golems are not really meant to be 'long-term solutions' unto themselves, which is why others have figured out ways to make them more permanent. The 'mystic sites' almost act like arcane versions of Deepspawn, fed by the power of the Basal golem. Others have built 'armored suits' to house them, like Warfoged, or Tan Chin's armies of clay golems. I've theorized that Helmed Horrors are actually either an Imaskari prototype for warforged, or even a specific branch of that technology (because sometimes you'd prefer unthinking, obedient soldiers).

Control of the Bloodforges: Obviously, I misremembered about the 'pearls of power', or rather, I might be remembering how we spun them, way back when. What did the Pearl of Power DO in the game again? I don't believe the VG ever stated how the Bloodforges and golems were controlled; the game wouldn't have needed to... but we do. If it goes by 'owner', whatdefies that? the last person who touched the Forge? That would be a serious drawback to using them (on the other hand, it would be one way to nerf such an uber-powerful artifact). It could be why these guys 9the ones who all used the Bloodforges) only relied on created troops, rather than 'real' ones - one of your men could steal your thunder just by touching the Forge.

And lastly, it would be entirely possible to power an artifurnace in a Spelljamming ship with one of these, although then we'd have to figure out how it can leave the planet, when I've already stated that the artifacts are 'bound' to the Utter east for some reason. On the other hand, all artifacts work in that fashion - disappear and reappear elsewhere, which means artifurnace tech has already gotten around that problem. So we can have Bloodforged Helms, to go with Dwarven Forges.

Hmmmmm... what if the dwarves had something to do with Bloodforges (they come out of the yehimals originally) - 'forge' is in the name, and it is a similar principle to Deepspawn, which they either used or created. Thus, 'Dwarven (SJ) Forges' could actually be a related technology (capturing stray arcane energy and converting it to power).

Cthulhu dwarves?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 02 Nov 2017 22:11:06
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31234 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2017 :  18:43:01  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Two things: IIRC, House Cannith didn't intentionally create sentient warforged -- they were making them with better and better artificial intelligence, and then suddenly sentient warforged were coming out. House Cannith didn't know how it happened and were rather surprised by it...

As for the Bloodforges (an area of Realmslore I'm still woefully ignorant of) being tied to just one area... I'd say that there's something unique about that area. Maybe a hidden/buried power source (master forge, fallen deity/primordial, convenient artifact) in the area that the 'forges are tied to, or maybe it's something simpler, like a unique arrangement of ley lines.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2017 :  22:15:03  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, yeah, I know it was an accident, but it doesn't mean it didn't follow similar lines of production. They were experimenting with different 'spirit types' to attach to the golems, and then hit upon the idea of a 'magic elemental', and tried it... and later they became sentient. I understand there are still quite a few of the 'less aware' types floating around as well.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7144 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2017 :  22:20:03  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah, I'm very hesitant to say he is some known demon lord (example Pazuzu). I'd be more inclined to make him some kind of lesser primordial that was imprisoned.

Also, I know we picture the elements as four, but other cultures say there are five (the wu jen for instance say wood, fire, metal, earth, and water). So, since I now see a picture of this guy.... he doesn't even remotely look like "air" to me. He could be metal or wood, and I'd be inclined to metal. Given he has ties to a "bloodforge" I'd say he has ties to metal.

Given that this place is AROUND where the Padhra religion started AND is supposed to be associated to possibly some Kara-Tur cultures in the past.... I'll also note this from the Player's Guide to Faerun (which oddly.... me and BadCatMan were wondering if Kara-Tur were like this a couple months back, and here we have canon lore saying we were correct.... and it even moreso makes me feel I'm more correct with Rashemen being a spirit realm way back when).

THE SPIRIT WORLD
The Spirit World described in the Appendix in Manual of the Planes is coexistent with and coterminous to the Material Plane, but only in Kara-Tur. Each deity of Kara-Tur’s Celestial Bureaucracy has a small realm attached to the Spirit World. Because it is a transitive plane, the Spirit World replaces the Astral Plane in Kara-Tur.

So, given this.... we could call him primordial or "Great Spirit".... having him be a "Great Spirit" of metal would seem to make sense. In fact, making him a "Great Spirit" of "blood and metal" created by some mass creation of weapons followed by a bloody massacre.... maybe even created by some long ago conflict.


Hmmmm, and IF this is the case, perhaps basal golems are in fact spirits just like telthors. Perhaps the bloodforge actually transfers spirit energy from the spirit world to a created body that actually is incorporeal/ghostly (somewhat like a weaveghost.... blue even). Also, the idea of the creating of clerics, paladins, rangers, druids, etc.... could again be something which makes a "basal golem" much more fleshy and imprints an ancestor spirit into the body.... being rebirthed into a new body instantaneously rather than being born naturally. This act may very well be seen as sacrilegious by the people of the culture, and very "chaotic" and a breaking of the "natural order". Thus why Tartyron is named as he is as a "Lord of Chaos" because maybe he as a great spirit created bloodforges to try and use spirits from the spirit world to conquer "the real world".

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 02 Nov 2017 22:48:32
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3166 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2017 :  23:57:45  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Hmmmm, and IF this is the case, perhaps basal golems are in fact spirits just like telthors. Perhaps the bloodforge actually transfers spirit energy from the spirit world to a created body that actually is incorporeal/ghostly (somewhat like a weaveghost.... blue even). Also, the idea of the creating of clerics, paladins, rangers, druids, etc.... could again be something which makes a "basal golem" much more fleshy and imprints an ancestor spirit into the body.... being rebirthed into a new body instantaneously rather than being born naturally. This act may very well be seen as sacrilegious by the people of the culture, and very "chaotic" and a breaking of the "natural order". Thus why Tartyron is named as he is as a "Lord of Chaos" because maybe he as a great spirit created bloodforges to try and use spirits from the spirit world to conquer "the real world".


-I recall a lot of brainstorming back during the 3e days linking the Bloodforges to Incarnum, an interesting concept one of the late 3e books had involving spirit energy/magic.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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BadCatMan
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Posted - 03 Nov 2017 :  02:43:41  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I'm not going to worry about mechanics for now, and certainly not 3e mechanics. My assumption here is that mages of the south are all sorcerers, of one stripe or another.


Well, not game mechanics, but the "how to bloodforges even work?" mechanics.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

The Lords of the Elemental Realms (Parsanic League) were probably Mages. It specifically says Tartyron was one of them,


Not necessarily. "Bloodforge mage" was a term I had to adopt for someone who commands a bloodforge. The game often says bloodforges are used by mages, and I determined one needed to be a mage to use them. But what is a "mage" anyway? However, it might be possible for a ruler to have a bloodforge mage in their employ. In any case, it's more an abstraction for game characters who command bloodforged armies. It's a use of magic that doesn't rely on conventional wizardry, so a "mage" here isn't someone we'd recognise as a mage

On the other hand, everyone who's anyone in the Realms is a spellcaster, so...

The lords are already called the Circle of Order, so there's no need to change that name. (The Free Cities of Parsanic may have just arisen later.)

As for their kind of elementalism... Hmm, the Lord of Lands wears a green robe, a wreath, and carries a stick. I'm tempted to call the Lord of Lands a druid, based on his appearance, though he might be a nature-focused mage. He's less earthy, more perhaps wood. So, yeah, they could well have a different elemental system, but then we'd need a fifth character, and there are only four known.

The Lord of Flame is a guy in red plate armour with a sword, so he's some form of warrior. Though they dress to their roles, they look too human to me. I'm inclined to think of them as long-lived/immortal human spellcasters (and a realm of "Immortals" is mentioned later), similar to the leaders of Mezro in Chult.

Coincidentally, Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms mentions, for the gods of Malatra, the Lords of Creation, who were "adopted from a southwestern culture beyond the bounds of Kara-Tur". While the whole of southern Kara-Tur is utterly unexplored and southwest of Malatra, it's still within Kara-Tur. As we discussed the first time, the Sempadan Forest and the Utter East (or perhaps some place in northern Zakhara) are the most likely candidates for their origin. That their "believers are among the most arbitrary and authoritarian to be found in the Malatra jungles" also suggests a Circle of Order.

Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms recommends using the Indian deities, but I'm not sure this is necessary; it's a suggestion rather than a fact, just like Mahasarpa was a suggested fill-in for the Utter East and Sempadan, even though it's from Rokugan. It only needs something similar. Stray gods of the southeast Faerūn and Zakhara could be plugged in here: Zionil (Gond) in place of Tvashtri, for example, and the holy water buffalo Yampa who carried the Padhra.

As for their sometimes western dress, they could have changed or the events of the game are a Faerūnised depiction of the eastern-like events that should have happened.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Control of the Bloodforges: Obviously, I misremembered about the 'pearls of power', or rather, I might be remembering how we spun them, way back when. What did the Pearl of Power DO in the game again? I don't believe the VG ever stated how the Bloodforges and golems were controlled; the game wouldn't have needed to... but we do. If it goes by 'owner', whatdefies that? the last person who touched the Forge? That would be a serious drawback to using them (on the other hand, it would be one way to nerf such an uber-powerful artifact). It could be why these guys 9the ones who all used the Bloodforges) only relied on created troops, rather than 'real' ones - one of your men could steal your thunder just by touching the Forge.


The Pearl of Power was magical pearl, I quote, "the Pearl of Power which, according to legend, could bring life to arcane inventions" and was used to activate the Juggernaut construct. It makes a construct go, basically, but since constructs are ten-a-penny in D&D and even in B&M, it should be rather more. The story also warns "For the Pearl held a curse to whomever did bear it. A curse of war and calamity born from greed." Which is kind of like what happened when Bloodforges were discovered in Faces of Deception and Grand History accounts.

As for operating a bloodforge and commanding basal golem armies, the game actually did hint at this in the Demo game readme story I quoted earlier, and as I described in the wiki articles. One needs to be a mage of some kind, to have "mastered" the bloodforge (whether become an expert in its use or exerted mental control over it, I don't know). The bloodforge is placed in a certain location (only a few specific sites on any given map) in suitable terrain (we discussed leylines and sacred sites the first time around).

Oddly, the bloodforge mages don't stand on the battlefield, but fly over it, issuing commands to their armies using a marble "oracle" invented by the Great Mage (the Sun Tzu of bloodforge warfare, apparently). That of course just describes the in-game interface and perspective.

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Markustay
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Posted - 03 Nov 2017 :  07:00:25  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So then we can spin Pearls of Power as the controlling mechanism (just to tie VG elements into D&D mechanics). I mean, the Basal Golems ARE a type of automaton. The person who controls the pearl controls whatever comes out of the forge its attuned to. I know that's not really how it worked in the game, but its close enough to the lore and becomes something we need. Then we can just have those PoP's mounted in anything we want - a pendant, a crown, a sword, even a throne (once again, that's a rather obnoxious thing to be dragging around with you on a battlefield).

As for the 'mage' part - we first discussed this back in 3e, and back then anyone could take a 1-level 'dip' into a class. Lets just say they have to have a spell-casting class - that should cover just about everything. Only problem I see is Rathgar, the first guy. He was a barbarian, from the looks of it (Shaman?)

On the other hand, they are artifacts, so maybe anyone CAN use them.

Tying the Circle of Order to the Vedic pantheon may seem mechanically correct, but it feels off to me. Unless... we say those cities have been there forever (which they have - at least a thousand years), and date back to a time when the Mar were the dominant ethnicity in the Utter east. I have to play with that mentally a bit - that actually could work nicely, and I've been dying to take kali out for a spin.

As far as them being the Parsanic League of today - like I said, this was all a LONG time ago, and if we tweak the (VG) history so that both versions are somewhat correct, The Lords of Order controlled that region, and then Tartyron took it over (killing THOSE Lords of Order, years {centuries?} BEFORE the campaign involving him even begins). The Lords of Order we know (from the VG) are a second group that was around when Tartyron reared his ugly head again. Thus, we already have at least two 'eras' for that Realm, and after the campaign with Tartyron, we can say that at least one of them was killed (probably the earth guy, because of the VG lore), and the other two 'retired'. The cities became ruled by council, and eventually became the Parsanic League. Use the lore to fix the lore.

The arrival of the Ffolk did not have to occur until well after all of that. Considering the lore revolving around Tartyron, we know there had to be at least two separate time periods of 'Bloodforge wars' - the one in the GHotR is just the last one (to have any major impact - I am sure a single Forge still shows up from time to time). If we say that the storyline (campaign) involving Tartyron itself happened earlier in the timeline, then we can spread things out even more. It seems to be a separate group of events from the other campaigns anyway.

I still need to know something about that Ysdar devil-dude (tielfing? that would make the most sense in the current D&D edition). I can't even begin to place him until I know his story. I recall trying to get that novel years ago, and it was like $70 USED - thats just insane.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Nov 2017 07:09:26
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Markustay
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Posted - 03 Nov 2017 :  07:02:58  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Ah, I'm very hesitant to say he is some known demon lord (example Pazuzu). I'd be more inclined to make him some kind of lesser primordial that was imprisoned.
No, no, no!

NOBODY traps Pazuzu! I LOVE that guy!

You misunderstood. I was saying that a LONG time ago (at least a thousand years) some demon lord corrupted our guy Tartyron (who WAS trapped), and since Tartyron must be the missing 'Lord of Air' (through process of elimination), it makes a lot of sense tying an antideluvian (Obyrith) archfiend like Pzarael to the corruption of a guy associated with AIR. That happens off-stage, even in the vG it happened well in the past, and whatever caused Tartyron's 'fall from grace' would not have been trapped, and probably would not have even been known about by anyone but Tartyron himself (and maybe not even him - he may have had no idea who was whisipering evil things in his ear). Saying it was Pazuzu is just pure metagaming - no-one but us fans could no that (and he's just fine, not trapped - he was vacationing in Miami that week. He's got a condo there. All archfiends do).

And none of that has anything to do with the trapped 'cosmic horror' I am picturing below the Utter East - perhaps even more than one (I am thinking one 'Elder Evil' and a couple of 'lesser primordials'). Pazuzu may have been aware of them (I'm sure he was), and he may have even pointed-out the ancient, buried capstone (Bloodforge) to tartron, just to get him to move it, and that would release the 'antideluvian horrors'.

Now, if Tartyron IS still buried/trapped there, he may even be one of the 'lesser evils'. I think whatever deal he made turned him into a demon (it wouldn't be the first time a mortal became a fiend). In fact, maybe he released one evil into the world (I haven't even conjectured who/what that may have been - who was that demon that was playing with the Ilythiir Dark Elves? Maybe him?), and after he was defeated, he took that fiend's place in its former prison, sealed behind a Bloodforge himself.

There was also that monster realm up on the glacier there - what was that guy's name? Could he have been another fiend-lord? did he seem powerful enough to be some sort of 'ancient evil'?

And if we are going to bring the Mar/Vedics into this, we got to have rakshasa. I've been wanting to play with them as well.

And speaking of cosmic cat beings, hey Sleyvas, one more thing I forgot to mention about Tan Chin's history (I have no idea which thread we were discussing him in), but Tan Chin was not on good terms with The Black Leopard (Bauhei) cult. And the only reason I just thought of that guy is because back when I was doing the K-T stuff, I pegged him as Vibhishana, Ravana's* (the Rakshasa king) younger, good brother (still chaotic, like all Rakshasa, so not 'perfect' in the eyes of the Vedic gods). Funny thing is, Ravana's other brother Kumbhakarna fought The Monkey King (known as Sugriva in the Indian pantheons, but as Sun Wukong in China, and just 'Monkey' in The Realms). And that god is busy all over K-T, and seems to be on good terms with the Black Panther (who, as I said, is the other Rakshasa brother). It all comes full circle.

Maybe we can stick Druaga under the ground somewhere there - no-one's played with him yet (although he should really be somewhere up near The Old Empires).


*And now that I am thinking about Ravana, he makes a great Primordial. Maybe even an Obyrith (the guy is described as having TEN HEADS!) Hmmmm... and I had him and a bunch of rakshasa trapped in the Yehimals (they got traced out of Zakhara some 20-25K years ago, before humans were there). the dwarves accidentally feed them, and thats why the dwarves had to all flee north. So perhaps its not so much the Utter East itself, but the nearby mountain range that has buried 'evils' in it. Further hmmmmm... maybe Landarma is a watchpost?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Nov 2017 17:48:22
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Markustay
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Posted - 03 Nov 2017 :  07:43:10  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks BCM - something tells me I am going to have to completely revamp my imaskari creation stuff again. Too bad I need to keep 'light skinned' in there somehow, otherwise it would be easy. I suppose I could just blame it on the Fey bloodlines and ditch the theoretical Cortae altogether (that will be the second time I dropped those guys... poor, bloody, hypothetical bastards).

I am now seeing the Kao (ancient Ang-Mar empire) being much more monolithic and pervasive then I had ever dreamed before. They were definitely in the Larang Valleys (Tempat Larang, etc), but apparently they had crossed the Yehimals and were into the Taan and Ue regions as well. Hell, I may not even need the Zakharans if I have psuedo-Indians to work with (they came much later anyway). The Ang spread north from the Dweepam (lower K-T) region, and eventually encounter the Fey (Kami, Yaksha), and befriend them, and together (spiritfolk) they build the beginnings of the Imaskari civilization. There were not many Fey left - most had left for the Feywild (they had their own 'Retreat', similar to the elves) when the Ang were just primitive savages. The Fey name the humans 'Mar', which is a strange yet affectionate term similar to 'special' here on Earth (they consider humans 'deformed', and somewhat ugly, but also pity them). One offshoot of the resultant spiritfolk are the Maraloi of the Ama basin. So the Kao (Ang-Mar) empire would already have been 'ancient and decadent' before Imaskar was even a thing.

Hmmmm... two type of magic I need in Imaskar to make everything work. The third type - 'portal' (translocation) - I have covered with the 'lost temple of Aoskar'. But I need some nature magic, and I need some artificery (automatons) in their society early on (to explain other things later). The Fey connection to nature is a given, and we know they had 'dealings'. That helps us with Raumathar's early history. However, Raumathar was even more famous for its later military innovations - their 'war machines'. I think I can tie that to the Mar (Tvashtri), and then go even further back and say that the piece of Blackmoor (preSundering human culture) that wound up in the Realms wound up in Malatra. Every (D&D) world has a piece of Blackmoor in it, and I think I finally figured out where to locate FR's (at its height, the Blackmoor culture was very similar to the ones in Jack Vance's Dying Earth novels, which just so happens to be where we get our magic system from - its a mix of tech and magic).

And here I am, looking for pictures of 'robot elephants' at 3:30 AM...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Nov 2017 17:44:55
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BadCatMan
Learned Scribe

Australia
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Posted - 03 Nov 2017 :  09:00:34  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

As far as them being the Parsanic League of today - like I said, this was all a LONG time ago, and if we tweak the (VG) history so that both versions are somewhat correct, The Lords of Order controlled that region, and then Tartyron took it over (killing THOSE Lords of Order, years {centuries?} BEFORE the campaign involving him even begins). The Lords of Order we know (from the VG) are a second group that was around when Tartyron reared his ugly head again. Thus, we already have at least two 'eras' for that Realm, and after the campaign with Tartyron, we can say that at least one of them was killed (probably the earth guy, because of the VG lore), and the other two 'retired'.


Nothing says they were killed, but nothing says they weren't either. The Circle of Order aren't a second group, they're the original rulers of the Utter East.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Considering the lore revolving around Tartyron, we know there had to be at least two separate time periods of 'Bloodforge wars'.


Indeed, the bloodforges' status as ancient war machines implies their use in past wars. I'm not entirely certain the undated events of the game even fit within the Bloodforge Wars described in Grand History, as they end in very different ways.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

And none of that has anything to do with the trapped 'cosmic horror' I am picturing below the Utter East = perhaps even more than one (I am thinking one 'Elder Evil' and a couple of 'lesser primordials'). Pazuzu may have been aware of them (I'm sure he was), and he may have even pointed-out the ancient, buried capstone (Bloodforge) to tartron, just to get him to move it, and that would release the 'antideluvian horrors'.


I think it might be best to leave it open, let it be whatever a DM wants it to be. The source material gives at least three different options, and even Grand History flipflops on whether they're undead or fiends. Like Lovecraftian? Then they're Lovecraftian antediluvian horrors. Want devils, then it's Ysdar and the Forgotten Ones. Or they're undead, with an imminent zombie apocalypose. A tortured and sympathetic villain like Tartyron.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

There was also that monster realm up on the glacier there - what was that guy's name? Could he have been another fiend-lord? did he seem powerful enough to be some sort of 'ancient evil'?


The Kingdom of Nix, home to goblins and harpies, once ruled by Redfang the Reaper. It's hard to say what he is, but he's hardly fiend-lord level, more just an advanced monster.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I am now seeing the Kao (ancient Ang-Mar empire) being much more monolithic and pervasive then I had ever dreamed before. They were definitely in the Larang Valleys (Tempat Larang, etc), but apparently they had crossed the Yehimals and were into the Taan and Ue regions as well. Hell, I may not even need the Zakharans if I have psuedo-Indians to work with (they cam much later anyway). The Ang spread north from the Dweepam (lower K-T) region, and eventually encounter the Fey (Kami, Yaksha), and befriend them, and together (spiritfolk) they build the beginnings of the Imaskari civilization. There were not many Fey left - most had left for the feywild (they ad their own 'Retreat', similar to the elves) when the Ang were just primitive savages. The Fey name the humans 'Mar', which is a strange yet affectionate term similar to 'special' here on Earth (they consider humans 'deformed', and somewhat ugly, but also pity them). One offshoot of the resultant spiritfolk are the Maraloi of the Ama basin. So the Kao (Ang-Mar) empire would already have been 'ancient and decadent' before Imaskar was even a thing.


Huh? The Kao are just the Kao Dynasty of Shou Lung, and are relatively recent too. The Horde campaign setting muddles matters by referring to the Shou as the Kao, but that's most likely just the barbarians' view of things.

The Maraloi are officially elves: The Horde's NPC card for Bayalun states she is half-Maraloi (which is confirmed in the novel Horselords) and calls the Maraloi "an ancient Eastern offshot of the elvish nation". They might be more fey than most elves, with their iron allergy, but that's not unusual for elves, and they are also spirit beings in the Kara-Turan view.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

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Posted - 03 Nov 2017 :  11:52:24  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I'm not going to worry about mechanics for now, and certainly not 3e mechanics. My assumption here is that mages of the south are all sorcerers, of one stripe or another.


Well, not game mechanics, but the "how to bloodforges even work?" mechanics.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

The Lords of the Elemental Realms (Parsanic League) were probably Mages. It specifically says Tartyron was one of them,


Not necessarily. "Bloodforge mage" was a term I had to adopt for someone who commands a bloodforge. The game often says bloodforges are used by mages, and I determined one needed to be a mage to use them. But what is a "mage" anyway? However, it might be possible for a ruler to have a bloodforge mage in their employ. In any case, it's more an abstraction for game characters who command bloodforged armies. It's a use of magic that doesn't rely on conventional wizardry, so a "mage" here isn't someone we'd recognise as a mage

On the other hand, everyone who's anyone in the Realms is a spellcaster, so...

The lords are already called the Circle of Order, so there's no need to change that name. (The Free Cities of Parsanic may have just arisen later.)

As for their kind of elementalism... Hmm, the Lord of Lands wears a green robe, a wreath, and carries a stick. I'm tempted to call the Lord of Lands a druid, based on his appearance, though he might be a nature-focused mage. He's less earthy, more perhaps wood. So, yeah, they could well have a different elemental system, but then we'd need a fifth character, and there are only four known.

The Lord of Flame is a guy in red plate armour with a sword, so he's some form of warrior. Though they dress to their roles, they look too human to me. I'm inclined to think of them as long-lived/immortal human spellcasters (and a realm of "Immortals" is mentioned later), similar to the leaders of Mezro in Chult.

Coincidentally, Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms mentions, for the gods of Malatra, the Lords of Creation, who were "adopted from a southwestern culture beyond the bounds of Kara-Tur". While the whole of southern Kara-Tur is utterly unexplored and southwest of Malatra, it's still within Kara-Tur. As we discussed the first time, the Sempadan Forest and the Utter East (or perhaps some place in northern Zakhara) are the most likely candidates for their origin. That their "believers are among the most arbitrary and authoritarian to be found in the Malatra jungles" also suggests a Circle of Order.

Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms recommends using the Indian deities, but I'm not sure this is necessary; it's a suggestion rather than a fact, just like Mahasarpa was a suggested fill-in for the Utter East and Sempadan, even though it's from Rokugan. It only needs something similar. Stray gods of the southeast Faerūn and Zakhara could be plugged in here: Zionil (Gond) in place of Tvashtri, for example, and the holy water buffalo Yampa who carried the Padhra.

As for their sometimes western dress, they could have changed or the events of the game are a Faerūnised depiction of the eastern-like events that should have happened.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Control of the Bloodforges: Obviously, I misremembered about the 'pearls of power', or rather, I might be remembering how we spun them, way back when. What did the Pearl of Power DO in the game again? I don't believe the VG ever stated how the Bloodforges and golems were controlled; the game wouldn't have needed to... but we do. If it goes by 'owner', whatdefies that? the last person who touched the Forge? That would be a serious drawback to using them (on the other hand, it would be one way to nerf such an uber-powerful artifact). It could be why these guys 9the ones who all used the Bloodforges) only relied on created troops, rather than 'real' ones - one of your men could steal your thunder just by touching the Forge.


The Pearl of Power was magical pearl, I quote, "the Pearl of Power which, according to legend, could bring life to arcane inventions" and was used to activate the Juggernaut construct. It makes a construct go, basically, but since constructs are ten-a-penny in D&D and even in B&M, it should be rather more. The story also warns "For the Pearl held a curse to whomever did bear it. A curse of war and calamity born from greed." Which is kind of like what happened when Bloodforges were discovered in Faces of Deception and Grand History accounts.

As for operating a bloodforge and commanding basal golem armies, the game actually did hint at this in the Demo game readme story I quoted earlier, and as I described in the wiki articles. One needs to be a mage of some kind, to have "mastered" the bloodforge (whether become an expert in its use or exerted mental control over it, I don't know). The bloodforge is placed in a certain location (only a few specific sites on any given map) in suitable terrain (we discussed leylines and sacred sites the first time around).

Oddly, the bloodforge mages don't stand on the battlefield, but fly over it, issuing commands to their armies using a marble "oracle" invented by the Great Mage (the Sun Tzu of bloodforge warfare, apparently). That of course just describes the in-game interface and perspective.



On what are bloodforge mages.... I could well see them falling into the warlock realm with pacts offered via the bloodforges themselves (perhaps they have a sentience, or perhaps they link back to Tartyron and he offers the pacts). They could also be incarnates or binders, though both of these have no rules under 5e (binders come close to warlocks and I have created some rules to simulate them though). Of course, sorcerers and wizards also work.

We only know of four elemental lords maybe because another is imprisoned? So if the lord of land represents EITHER wood OR earth, and lord of fire is fire, and lord of tides is water, and Tartyron were metal... then we could have it that there is a lord of wood OR earth who was bound by them. I don't necessarily think this is the best idea, but it comes immediately to mind that perhaps Moander was a lord of wood that got corrupted and bound..... or perhaps the lord/lady of wood is a much weaker being and he/she was corrupted by moander (I think the second option sounds better, and would give another bound entity of some sort which can be nasty).

I agree very much with the idea that these lords of order should not be uber powerful. Making them humans who have ascended to some kind of lesser divine/immortal status could be one thing. I prefer the concept though of some kind of spirit, especially given that the Celestial Bureaucracy is in the spirit world. These beings may have titles that were simply shortened..... like the lord of the land, maybe be the lord of X lands or Y mountains, etc.... he could be a spirit of the Yehimals for existence (and I only use that name so I don't have to pull up a map to find a smaller mountain range there).

The Padhra religion in which ones spirit merges with this spirit world would work well I think with these bloodforges with a little work. These Lords of Creation you mention in the Kara-Tur boxed set also could fit this well. In fact, this "spirit world" may consist of both primordials and "great spirits", because truly what do we know of the differences.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
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Posted - 03 Nov 2017 :  19:08:20  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Only read BCM's response thus-far.

Redfang the Reaper - I blew that pic up in GIMP. He's a bug. I was at first thinking he may be some sort of 'demon Thri-Kreen' (Tri-Kreen tiefling?), but then I got a good look at his face, and it looks more spider-like. He could definitely be a fiend-lord. An underachiever, maybe. One that got 'tossed out. Or perhaps he's a 'watchpost' for the bad guys, just like I think Langdarma might be one for the 'good guys' (more like Order & Chaos, than Good & Evil). If he is 'stationed' there, its a craptastic post, and he probably resents it like hell (pun intended).
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

Nothing says they were killed, but nothing says they weren't either. The Circle of Order aren't a second group, they're the original rulers of the Utter East.
Are you implying they are immortal Because then you may be reading far more into it then I am.

Tartyron wasn't 'bound' the first time? Thats where I may be getting confused. The campaign starts off talking about 'The Past' - about how he was bound by the Lords of Order. I was think he was bound twice, but now I realize he simply turned on them the first time, LOST, ad then was bound. Some time later (centuries?), the campaign time period takes place, and he escapes his prison. Since the 'Lords of Order' are NOT around anymore during the campaign (else, why aren't they helping you? Or are they?), I think by the time of the Bloodforge Wars (in the GHotR) they were no longer a thing. I am just not seeing him as the 'antideluvian horror' the GHotR speaks of, though. I have to assume that's some sort of 'final resolution' (doomsday scenario) someone managed to pull off... although why the Zakharans came and had to handle it is anybody's guess. I know that one threw us all for a loop, even way back then. I'm looking over that timeline - he didn't even give us enough time for the Moonshaers to really have established themselves (we are talking barely one generation). We may have to consider that as "just one time" in a wave of incursions (the portal I created in my CKC article is intermittent - I believe I made it only activate during a storm).

My thoughts here are now that pockets of ffolk and Northmen had arrived from time-to-time, via the portal (caught in storms), but that one time - the time I talk about in my article and also the year (621 DR) Brian pinpointed as the Moonshae arrival - would have been two large fleets that were well-armed (they were attacking each other when the storm caught them). That lets us say there may have been a few small settlements of ffolk and Norse around the region, and when the fleets arrived (badly storm-damaged and unable to continue their own conflict), it was simply decided to unti the pockets of notherners together with the new arrivals and takeover the Mar lands (as it says they did in the GHotR). They probably renamed the largest mar settlements after taking them over, and in the intervening 700+ years, the cultures have blended together in the cities (small settlements would still keep their original 'ethnic flavor', for the most part). Thus, Konigheim isn't really 'northmen', its somehting new - a blend of Mar (Indian) and Norse culture (their pantheon must be wack, but since I believe the Aesir = Assura - a RW theory, BTW - I guess its manageable). Doegan would be a blend of Ffolk and Mar (some definite Nature/Balance type of faith there), Edenvale would be a nearly 'pure' Ffolk stock (ones who traveled inland, and wanted nothing to do with the fighting the other groups were engaging in), and the Vanesci 'Hamlet' would be a plateau were the few pure mar live (because the area is so resource-poor that no-one cared enough to take it from them). Lastly, the Parsanic League is the last bastion of the original 'Realms of Ordered' decreed by the Vedic pantheon; they started out as Mar, but because of their placement, their culture is now a mix of all the others now, including some residual Bedine (Zakharan).

As for the Kao Empire - I am taking the errant passages in The Horde and running with them. I need to establish some older culture in the area, and we have some indications (via the Mar, but also other down in the Larang valleys) that the Vedic-like culture in Malatra had spread that far (or perhaps it had spread out from a more centralized location, like the area I labeled 'Mahasarpa' on one of my maps). I am taking lore that was odd (wrong? Canon can't be wrong! LOL) and repurposing it, and shoving it much further back in the timeline. The modern Kao Shan province was the last piece of the ancient Kao empire to have survived, and the Shou kept the name of the province as part of the final agreement when they absorbed them (MY lore, to make everything work). I've actually been thinking that fsince before even the last Ue thread/project, because of those weird entries in The Horde. I'm just taking them now and running even further with them, because I need to establish the Ang-Mar spreading out in at a very early time (like around -16,000 DR or so, and those would have been VERY primitive people back then - the culture/empire didn't form until probably around -10,000 DR or so).

I think part of the problem here is, no matter how wordy my posts are (sorry), I still can't seem to convey what I see going on in my head (its like the Far Realms, but MUCH scarier). Sometimes I am talking about cultures/ethnicites, and sometimes I am talking about Realms in a more modern sense. For an idea of my mental picture of the Ang-Mar people, look at the Wikipedia entry for History of India - it goes back 75,000 years (stone Age)! The culture I see spreading outward some 17,500 years ago in Kara-Tur would have started somewhere around Tabot (fitting, no?) and spread in all directions, thousands and thousands of years before even formal kingdoms appeared. Eventually, its 'Golden Age' ends with the Kaoang (placeholder name) Empire, and it butting-heads with early Imaskar (Nemrut Period).

EDIT:
Correction - The Maraloi are VERY much 'like elves'. Thus, I can turn them into Spiritfolk, who are half-fey. I think i discussed my plans for them elsewhere (that they are now 'Huldrafolk'). I only thought of the connection to the Mar last night. I am also going to bring in the Dark Elves, who would have 'changed' at -10K DR, and upset the 'balance of power' in the region. The Dark Elves (or rather, just plain 'elves' in the new 4e/5e nomenclature) would have been the last group left from the original Fey inhabitants. In fact, these pre-descent elves may have even had Eladrin among them (The Maviddi were Dark Eladrin?), and it would have been mostly these 'fey' that began crossbreeding with the Ang/Mar people. Once the descent curse hit, they had to get out of the sunlight, and built vast 'anthill like' colonies (Tsaparang fortress), before finally disappearing from the world of men.

You have to use pure canon for the Wiki, regardless if its incocnsistent or not. I don't have that issue - I can bend and twist things anyway I like to get it to all work out.

Which reminds me - I almost forgot. The 'story' about the Scouring of the Utter East in that vingette (NOT the entries themselves) is just that - a story told by a Mar, who could not have even been alive at the time. Thus, the 'story' is canon, but its veracity is not, its folklore.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Nov 2017 19:20:07
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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Posted - 03 Nov 2017 :  19:33:59  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not even going to get into game mechanics for the simple reason that we won't all agree on edition, so I will politely bow-out of the talk about Incarnum, warlocks (which I HATE), or anything else that is too specific.

The only thing I like to do is call the northern (Faerūnian) Mages 'Wizards', and the southern magi 'Sorcerers', and let others define what I mean by that. The only thing I actual mean (in my own head) is that wizards use arcane magic, but sorcerers can access ANY type of magic, including divine. I do not like 3e's terminology for spellcasters - its too convoluted, and downright wrong (from folklore) in many cases. In 2e we just had Mages, and then 'practitioners of southern Magic', which I have been calling 'sorcerers' since then (and I never used the 3e sorceres, because they stomped all over that).

And to take it one step further (and even merge it a tiny bit with 3e mechanics), Wizards study spells. They study arcane formulae and practice somatic gestures. Think Harry Potter (Hogwart's) in this regard. Its all very regimented and full of obscure rules (that sometimes don't even make any sense). Sorcerers are the 'artists' of the magical world. They don't study - they 'befirend' a spirit (Familiar) and have it retrieve 'magical workings' for them. This really isn't so different than what priests do - they pray for a spell, and their diety fetches it for them... and sometimes not the one they want. All priests are doing is using gods as their 'Gen' (Zakharan version of a familiar). They are 'spellbeggers', as Vangerdehast calls them. However, despite their lack of studious nature, they have much greater versatility. Wizards represent LAW, and Sorcerers represent CHAOS. Neither is inherently good or evil.

And that's my take on things - with those two I do not need ANY other magic using class. EVER.

I don't really use psionics, but I would have to consider that a third type, and then connect all three to my Body, Mind, & Soul model. i suppose what I've created mirrors the old Rolemaster system. I always did love that one.

EDIT:
On the lords of Order:
We don't really need to flesh them out, since they're not around anymore, but I agree that their titles d have a bit of that 'Oriental' feel to them. I see them something like the Nine Travelers (elsewhere i discussed how these are actually a different group than the nine Immortals - but they have one guy in-common). Its basically the K-T concept of exarchs (Padhras, Chosen, etc - ascended mortals). i suppose these guys may have achieved that status naturally, through the reverence by their own peoples (plus, we were thinking about giving the whole thing an 'elemental/primordial spin', so...).

I like the idea Istishi was worshiped in the Realm of Tides, because she also had a following in the nearby Corsair islands (the new map I am putting together has those on it). The elemental Lords are easily tied to the Vedic pantheon (they just have other names for them, like Agni = Kossuth). thus, these 'Lords of Order' may have just been their god's 'voice on earth' (the head of their churches).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Nov 2017 19:57:25
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
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Posted - 03 Nov 2017 :  22:54:20  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
bear in mind the ACTUAL definition of antediluvian. I know you're thinking like I do, and the second you hear antediluvian your mind goes "Elder Gods" and "Cthulhu". But it actually means a very ancient being/thing, so a simple primordial or "spirit being" CAN be antediluvian. Not that it has to be, and in fact there may be multiple buried things in this area of the world.... just like Eltab was buried in Eltabbar and there's demoncysts throughout the unapproachable east and Old Empires.


Definition of antediluvian
1:of or relating to the period before the flood described in the Bible
2
a : made, evolved, or developed a long time ago - ex. an antediluvian automobile - ex. that antediluvian relic known as a slide rule
b : extremely primitive or outmoded - ex. an antediluvian prejudice - ex. antediluvian in his politics

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 03 Nov 2017 :  23:43:00  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Now, if Tartyron IS still buried/trapped there, he may even be one of the 'lesser evils'. I think whatever deal he made turned him into a demon (it wouldn't be the first time a mortal became a fiend). In fact, maybe he released one evil into the world (I haven't even conjectured who/what that may have been - who was that demon that was playing with the Ilythiir Dark Elves? Maybe him?), and after he was defeated, he took that fiend's place in its former prison, sealed behind a Bloodforge himself.

-Wendonai

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I am also going to bring in the Dark Elves, who would have 'changed' at -10K DR, and upset the 'balance of power' in the region. The Dark Elves (or rather, just plain 'elves' in the new 4e/5e nomenclature) would have been the last group left from the original Fey inhabitants. In fact, these pre-descent elves may have even had Eladrin among them (The Maviddi were Dark Eladrin?), and it would have been mostly these 'fey' that began crossbreeding with the Ang/Mar people. Once the descent curse hit, they had to get out of the sunlight, and built vast 'anthill like' colonies (Tsaparang fortress), before finally disappearing from the world of men.


-The Dark Elves were one of the earlier Elven groups to arrive from the Plane of Faerie to Toril, not the last. When Sharlario and Durothil left Tintageer, Dark Elves had already come and had an advanced settlement in Atorrnash.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

There was also that monster realm up on the glacier there - what was that guy's name? Could he have been another fiend-lord? did he seem powerful enough to be some sort of 'ancient evil'?


-If the canon does not fit in well enough, I recall a Fiendish glacier realm in one of the later-era DRAGON magazines that was really awesome that could always be ported in. Ring a bell for anyone? Was something like a Demon that was frozen in a glacier, making it an 'infernal glacier' that teleported across the planes (was a tall tale for most?). May or may not have had those infernal Dwarf creatures.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 03 Nov 2017 23:50:53
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