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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Oct 2017 : 15:53:32
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I picture the Mar being like Pakistani, or maybe Tempat Larang was like Pakistan, and the Venesci Hamlet (Mar area in the uE) like Afghanistan.
They are all part of the theoretical 'Ang' ethnic group, which was almost entirely subsumbed by Shou-Lung (which itself is actually made of a several different groups - the people of each province (most of which being bigger than Heartlands nations) look slightly different than the others, because of different percentages of ancient ethnicities.
So yes, they should be darker skinned, but the Mar themselves are probably lighter than average Ang, because of racial mixing in the Utter East, and theoretically before coming to the uE. In the old uE thread we theorized that the Mar had crossed the mountains during the 'cataclysm' which destroyed Tempat Larang, lead by their gods. They reached Langdarma - a valley holy to the Vedic pantheon (like 'paradise') - and all their cares and wants would be provided for. However, a large number of them quickly became dissatisfied, feeling almost like 'pets', and continued their journey west, finally crossing the Yehimals and settling in the Utter East.
At the time, there were some tribes living in the region, originally from Zakhara, with some peaceful, and other raiders (think 'Scythians'), but there were enough of them to carve-out a region of their own, plus create a few small villages throughout the region (acting as fixed 'trading posts' for the nomadic tribesmen). Basically, 'they found their niche'.
Then the Ffolk (first wave) showed up, and in the beginning there was some peaceful settling (the vingette in the GHotR says as much), but then more and more came and finally their was friction between the groups; the Mar not in Vanesci province (a plateau near the mountains) were simply absorbed by the newly forming nations, and the nomads were pushed north and south, or up into the mountains. While this was taking place, a large contingent of Northmen showed up - most likely having been watching the Ffolk at sea, and deciding they wanted 'in' on this new land. They set up their own base-of-operations to the south (what would eventually become the city of Konigheim), and raided the coast indiscriminately. It was a northmen raider who discovered the first bloodforge (Rathgar). These were 'hidden' in mystical sites, which the tribesmen and Mar were happy just to leave alone* (superstition and all). When the Ffolk showed up, they also had some experience with 'mystical sites' (their Moonwells), and they did plan to investigate them eventually, but their own druids had warned them to leave them be 'lest great evil be unleashed upon the world'. The Northmen, of course, didn't give an osquip's arse about any of that - they just wanted phat lewtz.
*This is a fairly major deviation from how I was originally spinning the bloodforges - as 'Lifeforges' brought across the mounatins by the Mar themselves. I think I'd rather have them go further back in time, now that we have all this cosmological cr.. stuff... from 4e behind us 9and also, it ties into the whole 'lovecraftian vibe' better). I'm also pretty certain I no longer want to blame the Imaskari for the few 'bound' Elder evils in the area - since the last time we worked on this region we've had so much 'Imaskar' shoveled at us I'd rather push that back in time with the rest of it (I'm thinking Batrachi turning on 'their masters').
A decade of letting something 'stew' is a wonderful way to gain clarity. I can now honestly approach this all with a brand-new perspective (keeping what we did that was great, and ditching the rest). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Oct 2017 20:54:30 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2017 : 16:43:21
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Barbarians:
We have the Sharran tribes who were mostly peaceful, until the Narfelli showed up in Shandaular (Council Hills), and the two mixed and became the Arkauins, and that occurred in -946 DR. These would have been pure Narfelli stock, because the Rus did not come into Rashemen until -105 DR.
HOWEVER, in -69 DR a group of Illuskans do show up in Shadaular, and eventually mix with the local Arkauins. Now, using BCM's timeline form the old thread, we have 'Norse like' Arkauins in Ulgarth in 83 DR, raiding into Durpar*. Then in 202 DR we have Mulhorand getting so annoyed by the disruption in 'southern trade' that they send their armies to nearly wipe-out the Ulgarth barbarians. Now, if we theorize that these forces met somewhere along the northern coasts of The Golden Waters, then theoretically there could have been 'women & children' left alone, back home in Ulgarth. These could have then grown up to be a somewhat more sedate version of their forefathers (this allows up to keep our 'Norse-like' trappings). Also, this means those same cultural aspects in Ulgarth might be almost completely unrelated to whats going on down in Konigheim.
So thus far we have two groups of 'Arkauins' - a more Sharran variety that went south and west from the council Hills, and the later ones (by almost a thousand years!) that had an admixture of Northmen blood, going south and east. Note that some tried to go north, and ran into the Old Empires, and that didn't work out so well for them (thats canon as well - in fact, all of this post has been canon so far).
Then we have the nomad tribes of the uE (we have no name for them), which aren't really canon, just conjecture (after all, it seems a bit weird there was this place that no-one lived-in for thousands of years).
And we have the Mar, which aren't 'barbarians', but might be construed as 'savages' compared to the 'more advanced' Ffolk and Northmen who showed up (not really though - the Mar just preferred to live a more simplistic, non-aggressive lifestyle).
I am also thinking that perhaps before "The Scattering of Fate" down in Zakhara, this coast was very similar to the 'Wild Coast' of Greyhawk - monstrous tribes all living and warring on each other here. That would explain why they are all up in the mountains now; when the Zakharan nomads first showed up en masse, they systematically expunged the monsters, one group at a time. Whereas the creatures may have been way more powerful as a whole, they were disorganized and more used to fighting each other than working together. Then, once the regions as fairly 'cleansed', the tribal groups of the nomads went their own ways. This probably all occurred right around the time Imaskar was collapsing.
The only problem with that last part is, why didn't the 'monsters' ever bother the Mystical sites? I suppose I could say the Imaskari had been guarding them up until that point, but then I have to answer the 'why?' question, and involve them heavily in something I'd rather not. Also, if I want the Muhjari (Durpari culture/ethnicity) to be related to Zakhara, then the nomads would have had to have been in the Utter East since before -8350 DR. I think I may have a newer spin for that {stay tuned}.
*Durpar didn't exist along the north coast of The Golden Waters back then - this can be 'extracted' from the canon by way of logic: their original capital was along the south coast (canon), and they had cities spread along there (also canon), but they were chased-out by 'monsters' (canon again). 'Veldorn' first formed around the Curna Mountains, and they had completely taken the southern coast of The Golden waters away from the Durpari (once again, CANON). Durpar was forced to move at first west, and then east again along the northern coast, as Veldorn spread (canonically, Veldorn {The Beastlands'} was located IN the Curna Mounatains, then along the southern coast, and then west {taking Old Vaelen}, and eventually wound-up where it is today, spreading north from Old Vaelen along the Giant's Belt. What that means to us is that when the 'yucky barbarians' in Ulgarth were attacking Durpar, Durpar itself wasn't where it is today - it was to the south! That means that entire stretch of land along the north there could have been claimed by Ulgarth at that time. That could mean Ulgarth may have had a border with Mulhorand.
EDIT:
In fact, we even have an older name for Ulgarth! What was that again BCM? Ulgor, or some-such? that may have just been the 'tribal lads' of the Eastern branch of Arkauins!  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Oct 2017 16:54:19 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2017 : 18:46:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I picture the Mar being like Pakistani, or maybe Tempat Larang was like Pakistan, and the Venesci Hamlet (Mar area in the uE) like Afghanistan.
They are all part of the theoretical 'Ang' ethnic group, which was almost entirely subsumbed by Shou-Lung (which itself is actually made of a several different groups - the people of each province (most of which being bigger than Heartlands nations) look slightly different than the others, because of different percentages of ancient ethnicities.
So yes, they should be darker skinned, but the Mar themselves are probably lighter than average Ang, because of racial mixing in the Utter East, and theoretically before coming to the uE. In the old uE thread we theorized that the Mar had crossed the mountains during the 'cataclysm' which destroyed Tempat Larang, lead by their gods. They reached Langdarma - a valley holy to the Vedic pantheon (like 'paradise') - and all their cares and wants would be provided for. However, a large number of them quickly became dissatisfied, feeling almost like 'pets', and continued their journey west, finally crossing the Yehimals and settling in the Utter East.
At the time, there were some tribes living in the region, originally from Zakhara, with some peaceful, and other raiders (think 'Saracens'), but there were enough of them to carve-out a region of their own, plus create a few small villages throughout the region (acting as fixed 'trading posts' for the nomadic tribesmen). Basically, 'they found their niche'.
Then the Ffolk (first wave) showed up, and in the beginning there was some peaceful settling (the vingette in the GHotR says as much), but then more and more came and finally their was friction between the groups; the Mar not in Vanesci province (a plateau near the mountains) were simply absorbed by the newly forming nations, and the nomads were pushed north and south, or up into the mountains. While this was taking place, a large contingent of Northmen showed up - most likely having been watching the Ffolk at sea, and deciding they wanted 'in' on this new land. They set up their own base-of-operations to the south (what would eventually become the city of Konigheim), and raided the coast indiscriminately. It was a northmen raider who discovered the first bloodforge (Rathgar). These were 'hidden' in mystical sites, which the tribesmen and Mar were happy just to leave alone* (superstition and all). When the Ffolk showed up, they also had some experience with 'mystical sites' (their Moonwells), and they did plan to investigate them eventually, but their own druids had warned them to leave them be 'lest great evil be unleashed upon the world'. The Northmen, of course, didn't give an osquip's arse about any of that - they just wanted phat lewtz.
*This is a fairly major deviation from how I was originally spinning the bloodforges - as 'Lifeforges' brought across the mounatins by the Mar themselves. I think I'd rather have them go further back in time, now that we have all this cosmological cr.. stuff... from 4e behind us 9and also, it ties into the whole 'lovecraftian vibe' better). I'm also pretty certain I no longer want to blame the Imaskari for the few 'bound' Elder evils in the area - since the last time we worked on this region we've had so much 'Imaskar' shoveled at us I'd rather push that back in time with the rest of it (I'm thinking Batrachi turning on 'their masters').
A decade of letting something 'stew' is a wonderful way to gain clarity. I can now honestly approach this all with a brand-new perspective (keeping what we did that was great, and ditching the rest).
Yeah, I like the idea of the Batrachi having something to do with the bloodforges. In fact, we don't know WHERE the ritual that freed the Primordials just prior to the Abeir/Toril split was done. For all we know, the bloodforges were a part of that. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2017 : 18:53:29
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| Why were the mystical sites left relatively unbothered? Well, maybe its because they were protected somehow. Illusions maybe. Spells to make one take another path. Spells that killed the individuals who wandered in. Maybe just the place was so under populated that those sections of the wilderness just weren't explored. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2017 : 19:51:03
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Except that everyone else seems to be able to bother them. My latest thoughts in this regard (I am still formulating something cohesive) is that at least one nomad chieftan 'toyed with' the mystical sites and a Bloodforge, despite superstitious awe, and thus created quite a few of those monsters (all the ones from the video game, most of which now live on the outskirts of the Utter East, in the wilderness areas and the mountains). Thus, it was the influx of nomads from the south that also caused the rise in monsters in the region. The original 'mystcial sites' (before they got completely plundered during the Blodforge Wars) were probably Batrachi temples/alters, dedicated to 'Dark Gods' (and those Dark gods may be the Elder evils trapped beneath them). I think even most 'monsters' would avoid a site radiating psuedo-natural (Far Realms) energies.
Both dragons and dgen seem to avoid the uE, and I think we can trace that back to Zakhara lore - it seems there are NO dragons in Zakhara and thats because the very large population of genies have stopped them cold in the past (there's a great story about that in the first Al-Qadim book, IIRC). So dragons and dgen seem to have this detente, and the Utter East has become something of a 'no-mans land' between the two powerful, magical races. Occasionally an individual may settle in the area, but eventually one 'side' or the other makes sure that dosn't last for long. Sphinxes are probably the dominant monster in the region, I would imagine, given their existence both to the north and south.
And lastly, the whole reason why I came to post again - I finally found the guy's name and the relevant quote - Surtava, who was an Ulgarian Prince, before he became the founder of the Padhran faith. Thus, the lands around the Golden waters - most especially the northeast and southeast, may have been know as 'Ulgar' or 'Ulgaria' "around 3000 years ago", so right around the time following the fall of Imaskar (actually, about an 800-year window, plenty of time for the survivor states to have arisen in the Raurin region). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2017 : 20:46:49
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Where is "Herne's Wood" and the locations in that wood from? The VG, or the novels?
I think I should make the Beowood (stupid name, in retrospect) "Herne's Wood", and locate that stuff there - get it out of the Sempadan. I'm not even sure why I created The Beowood - seems pointless. No other maps have it but mine (as far as I can tell ATM), and unfortunatelly we have another detailed map of that same exact region (Yakmen article in Dragon #241), that we somehow completely overlooked in the original Utter East thread/project. There are also the maps from Ruined Kingdoms - an Al-Qadim product that ALSO covers this same area (Sempadan jungle, without any of the 'Norse' weirdness). So goodbye 'Beowood'. We hardly knew ye.
Time for some fudgery. 
EDIT:
So here I am, looking for any and all 'nearby' lore to apply, and I am looking through Corsairs of the Great Sea to see if there is anything I can use, and as I went to the back of the book to look at the maps (my usual 'haunt' in most sources), I came across some info at the very back of the book that I had never noticed before...
Long before the reign of the First Grand Caliph (which I believe means back before the AQ timeline even begins, about a thousand years ago), the Corsair Domains were called the "Isles of Fear", and were home to "a terrible cult which worshiped an elemental water god called Istishia". Now I just checked, and Zakhara does have knowledge of the elemental lords (after all, the place is rife with genies), but no-one really worships them, because they are considered, "cold, aloof, and uncaring" for mortals. They actually refer to them as 'The Cold Gods', and don't even pay them lip-service (very odd, considering the extremely elemental nature of the setting).
I think the Zakharans understood the nature of primordials much better than the northerners did, in hindsight. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Oct 2017 21:48:12 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2017 : 01:14:02
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The wiki is your friend: Herne's Wood is from the game. Comparing maps puts it in the north/northwest edhe of the Sempadan Forest.
I'll hold that "Ulgarian" and "Ulgarthan" could simply be a different demonym for Ulgarth. The Realms has stacks of those: e.g., Cormyte, Cormyrean.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There were 'Pearls of Power' used to control the Bloodforges, but we also saw (in the game art) other items, so the assumption here is that folks mounted the Pearls in other things, most commonly jewelry, but there was at least one 'throne' involved (a little silly and ostentatious, if you ask me... and inefficient).
Que? There was only one Pearl of Power in the game: found in a deep barrow tomb, it was an artifact that could bring life to "arcane inventions" like the Juggernaut (a steampunk mecha tank).
Okay, I can now work up another B&M campaign for the wiki. But you get to choose! Should I go to Konigheim, the Puzzle Palace, and the Hall of Wonders, and cover the Pearl of Power? Or should I go to the Realms of Lands, Tides, and Fire and cover Tartyron and the Circle of Order? |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2017 : 02:10:38
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I'm going to have to make Herne's Wood a separate place - the Sempadan is Jungle (it could have been connected in the past). It will be in the same area, though, so its not a big deal. It just conflicts a lot with the Yakmen material (its well inside the Yakmen kingdom, in the province of Sun's Eye - same province the coastal city of Lipo belongs to).
Do Tartyron and that stuff - I NEED to know!
EDIT: In the Herne's Wood entry, this reads weird -
quote:
At last, an itinerant bard told the commander that a great mage known as Tyranis Shagal, whose achievements were impressive. Seeking to win glory by defeating a worthy opponent, the Legendary Campaign commander issued a challenged to Shagal to fight a bloodforge battle.
The first sentence is 'off'. change the word 'that' to 'about' and it works.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Nov 2017 02:16:37 |
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2017 : 02:29:04
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Ugh, I forgot to include the bit about Shagal laying claim to Herne's Wood. Fixed it now, thanks. (I had that name stuck in my head since I wrote the article; my subconscious must have been trying to tell me something.)
Herne's Wood lies at the foot of the tallest and coldest mountains on the planet, and is separated by two rivers. It's very possible for it not to be "jungle". And the Sun's Eye province (thank another wiki editor, Artemaz, for the stirling work on the Yikarian Empire), doesn't extend past the World Pillar Mountains, so the Yakfolk haven't claimed the Sempadan Forest. Sun's Eye's border with Konigheim in the west is more problematic. |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2017 : 04:20:57
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Well, I was moving it (or rather, moving the old Beowood) NW from the Sempadan, and NE of its own, old location. It would have been the part of the sempadan that went 'up and over' the mountains there, so the forest thins-out near the mountain tops, thus really a 'split' forest (Herne's Wood being the coniferous forest found in the higher altitudes). I am going to definitely do a DMsGuild thing with this (something small, nothing major), and I'll put a little something in about how the Sempadan was a much larger forest encompassing the whole of northern Zakhara at one time (on up into the Utter East a little bit). Thus, the maps from the game - which should date from the 600's DR, should still be accurate as of that time period.
I may even blame the separation of the forest on the Yakmen, who didn't like 'lesser folk' using it to get about within THEIR kingdom, unseen. Rather than a dragon (which have been overused in Faerūn), they probably got an efreet to do the job.
Shag... al? Now I am picturing a Mage that looks like Austin Powers. 
EDIT:
And I've moved the border of Konigheim north, to avoid that other problem. We can just say that was a very rough map in the novels. I don't feel nearly as leery about tweaking stuff now as I did a decade ago, what with two major cataclysms, an entire planet, and primordials all appearing right under our feet. 'Canon' just ain't what it used to be. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Nov 2017 04:24:57 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2017 : 11:51:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Where is "Herne's Wood" and the locations in that wood from? The VG, or the novels?
I think I should make the Beowood (stupid name, in retrospect) "Herne's Wood", and locate that stuff there - get it out of the Sempadan. I'm not even sure why I created The Beowood - seems pointless. No other maps have it but mine (as far as I can tell ATM), and unfortunatelly we have another detailed map of that same exact region (Yakmen article in Dragon #241), that we somehow completely overlooked in the original Utter East thread/project. There are also the maps from Ruined Kingdoms - an Al-Qadim product that ALSO covers this same area (Sempadan jungle, without any of the 'Norse' weirdness). So goodbye 'Beowood'. We hardly knew ye.
Time for some fudgery.
EDIT:
So here I am, looking for any and all 'nearby' lore to apply, and I am looking through Corsairs of the Great Sea to see if there is anything I can use, and as I went to the back of the book to look at the maps (my usual 'haunt' in most sources), I came across some info at the very back of the book that I had never noticed before...
Long before the reign of the First Grand Caliph (which I believe means back before the AQ timeline even begins, about a thousand years ago), the Corsair Domains were called the "Isles of Fear", and were home to "a terrible cult which worshiped an elemental water god called Istishia". Now I just checked, and Zakhara does have knowledge of the elemental lords (after all, the place is rife with genies), but no-one really worships them, because they are considered, "cold, aloof, and uncaring" for mortals. They actually refer to them as 'The Cold Gods', and don't even pay them lip-service (very odd, considering the extremely elemental nature of the setting).
I think the Zakharans understood the nature of primordials much better than the northerners did, in hindsight.
And yet the Geomancers worshipped Grumbar specifically, and apparently we have a cult of Istishia down amongst those islands. I'd imagine the worship of the elemental lords being suppressed is being pushed by the genies, who would rather get this faith energy themselves.
BTW, I just checked Ruined Kingdoms. The map doesn't go up high enough to show any of this area. I also checked the Land of Fate box, and it doesn't either. The only thing I can figure is that most of the map you guys pulled for this came from Blood and magic OR maybe the novel "faces of deception" had something in the beginning like a lot of them do. The Dragon #241 map only shows the barest bottom of the area.
In fact, it does look like faces of deception had a map, and though its bare bones, it may be the most developed official one there is.
http://www.candlekeep.com/downloads/uttereast.jpg
and it looks like on yours you combined the map lore of Dragon 241 article and this from faces of deception, but neither mentions a beowood or shows it. Perhaps the novel itself did? Was the novel based in Konigheim (I ask this because it seems like the Mead Hall of the Northmen is listed on the map for the novel, so I assume that it and Konigheim were a bigger portion of the novel). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 01 Nov 2017 12:31:12 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2017 : 12:09:50
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quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
Well, I'm glad someone's reading my wiki articles.
I suppose this interest means I should make Tartyron Unbound my next Utter East wiki project?  From the campaign intro, "In the beginning of all things, the Realms were a frenzy of creation. And from this turmoil there arose primitive nations. When the lords of order ascended to govern east of the Great Sea, one among them was cast down for his chaotic schemes. It was in exile that he took the name Tartyron. Tartyron loathed his underground kingdom. He spent his rage upon those that stumbled into his prison. And he waited, for one day he would escape and unleash chaos upon the world." He's the Lord of Chaos, ejected from the Circle of Order, who are the Lord of Lands, the Lord of Flame, and the Lady of Tides. Carrying the elemental theme on would make Tartyron a lord of air or skies, ruler of a hypothesized Realm of Skies, perhaps. He's more of a death knight or blackguard sort of character, but his campaign outcome allows him a beneficial role: chaos balances order and brings change. However, he's the only real candidate in the game for the sealed evils in a can mentioned in Faces of Deception and Grand History.
Basal golems are so named because they're the basic or base unit for all other units and structures.
I'm hesitant to put the Imaskari in Ulgarth or the Utter East, because the Gate of Iron was meant to keep them out, somehow, to some extent.
Oh!  What you all haven't seen (unless you read my wiki articles...) is the piece in the Blood & Magic readme file for the Demo version (but not the full version, which I'd used previously). It's very suggestive and describes the game in-universe, making things clearer:
"Making the most of pre-dawn light, your trusted followers prowl the edge of the battlefield in search of suitable terrain. They release their heavy burden in a level clearing, and quickly set about their most urgent task. Your Bloodforge is fixed into the earth before the first rays of golden light touch the spires of the enemy stronghold. To calm your nerves, you recite the principles of warfare as instructed by the Great Mage."
"The Bloodforge is the mother of battle. It is pregnant with magic which grants life to my army. We of the faith call this power mana, the food which nourishes our practice."
"Basal Golems are the children of battle. They are formed from the mana in my Bloodforge, and serve my great purpose without question or regret. When they are idle, their meditations gather mana to supply our cause."
"The mystical sites are the temples of battle. My followers erect them to honor the gods. In exchange for this homage, our Golems may transcend their meager forms when they visit these sacred shrines."
"I am the master of battle. Through the rights of conflict I shall achieve great ends. My position is not on the field of battle, but in that high place where all its glory can be surveyed. My commands are not issued by writ or by proxy, but with a marble oracle created by the Great Mage. Such are his teachings of its use..."
While the description could be metaphor, I rather like wondering if it's not. The Bloodforge is the mother of the battle, and she is a hungry mother, endlessly consuming the raw magic and life energy that is mana as her food, birthing golems and monsters as her children of battle, encouraging unending war to bring yet more mana and birth yet more children. We're told using the bloodforges weakened ancient prisons for antediluvian horrors, and keep looking for a connection and possibilities, but what if the bloodforges are one and the same the prisons and the antediluvian horrors?
It's said in game that the gods created Bloodforges. But only five gods are mentioned in the game Chauntea, Mystra, Tempus, Lathander, Myrkul and their symbols appear on the Well of Immortals at the end of the game. (And popping up in various places in the background, the gear of Gond, as well as a Festival of Talos in Konigheim, which keeps burning down) Gods of life, undeath, creation, magic, and war. What else would they produce but a magic-hungry mother of battle and death?
Ok.... let's play with the idea for a second that the blood forges are meant to imprison a primordial not feed it. The blood forges are pregnant with magic in the form of mana. Let's say that this mana is "divine power" and that basal golems actually don't make "arcane power". Maybe they take raw magic (not weave based) and convert it into "divine power". This divine power is meant to be gathered in order to fuel the imprisonment of primordial(s) (which we know that long ago, primordials were imprisoned by the gods... and that later the batrachi released them somehow).
So, maybe periodically these blood forges must create basal golems and "refuel" the blood forge by drawing on the raw magic... but they are slow at it? So, then they use what energy they can gather to create "mystical sites" which are temples, and they draw followers of the gods, and these "basal golems" merge their essence with a mortal follower to quickly increase their "level" as a minion for a god (whether that be a cleric, druid, paladin, ranger, eldritch knight, arcane trickster, wizard, sorcerer, monk, warlock, etc...), and then this follower does work in the god's name and thus increasing the faith energy sent to the mystical site (idol) which is tied back to the bloodforge. Unfortunately, it would seem that these followers of the various bloodforges are meant to attack followers of another bloodforge, thus essentially pitting one deity's followers against another maybe.... but the gods consider this understandable in the great scheme of things, essentially sacrificing mortal followers to contain a greater evil. Would this even remotely follow the lore of the game itself?
EDIT: I reread the blood forges entry... read the next thread. I think it maybe fits the lore more accurately. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 01 Nov 2017 12:32:44 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2017 : 12:13:33
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quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
Huh. Somehow my response to sleyvas appeared before his post.
Oh, probably I was "editing" my original post or something. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2017 : 12:25:21
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quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
That's because it isn't complete, there's still everything from Faces of Deception to include. (One day, one day.) The novel describes them as golden skinned (so, light brown) and black haired. This is also where the Ffolk and Northmen are confirmed.
There's no evidence that a bloodforge was used for human sacrifice (no evidence that it was not, either, though the goblin and harpies of the Kingdom of Nix tossed creatures into cauldrons to extra mana to power theirs). The truth is much weirder:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Bloodforge
The actual connection to the mysterious prisons of fiends and undead and "antediluvian horrors", and even what these prisons were or why, is still very unclear and speculative. It began in Faces of Deception and was reiterated in Grand History; it may be alluding to the Tartyron Unbound campaign in Blood & Magic.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, see that? I didn't go to the link... I didn't have to.
I'm hurt. 
HMMMMMMMM, so golden-skinned COULD also be aasimar.... and they are called the "Mar". So, maybe the aasimar are the eventual descendants of the children of gods put here to stop people from using the blood forges (which maybe were the creations of batrachi?).
Ok, so based on what I see on the wiki for bloodforges, each use actually weakened the prison of the being beneath it. So, it wouldn't fit from my previous thread that the gods created the bloodforges to increase the hold on the prison. However, what if in fact this was a deception to work mortals against the gods. The basal golems create a mystical site (an idol devoted to the concept of a deity), and then they "bond" with a mortal at said site to give them power "from a deity". This is the deception... this power isn't from a deity, but rather its more like "pact magic". So, this mortal goes out and uses his faith... which the basal golem merged with him draws upon and delivers back to the "idol" ..... and then the blood forge periodically dumps this power from the mystical site back to itself and uses it to weaken the structure holding the imprisoned primordial being? This work better? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2017 : 12:45:06
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Actually, no, Faces of Deception doesn't have a map (or at least my copy doesn't). In fact, I've been unable to work out where that map came from. I couldn't find it in Realms of Mystery either. Most likely, given the prominent indication of Eldrinpar, I think it comes from one of the Double Diamond Triangle Saga, but they're very difficult to lay hands on. If anyone can confirm which one, they'd be a champion.
Markustay invented this "Beowood".
Here is my revision to Utter East's prehistory with the history from the Tartyron Unbound and Nuts and !Bolts campaigns of Blood & Magic:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Utter_East?curid=61614&diff=368095&oldid=367822
Please compare this to the beginning of the game's account, and tell me if my interpretation feels off:
In the beginning of all things, the realms were a frenzy of creation. And from this turmoil there arose primitive nations. When the lords of order ascended to govern east of the Great Sea, one among them was cast down for his chaotic schemes. It was in exile that he took the name Tartyron.
Tartyron loathed his underground kingdom. He spent his rage upon those that stumbled into his prison. And he waited, for one day he would escape and unleash chaos upon the world.
While my focus is only precisely rephrasing the lore of the game, how I place it against other events can put distinct spins on things. For example, it's easy to imply that, say, Tartyron is the bound "antediluvian horror" of the novels, whether fiend or undead, simply by putting the events side-by-side, not even merging them. So I tried to keep it neutral and open to interpretation, not to make my own, nor to speculate. And of course to keep it simple and maintain primacy of FR sourcebooks and novels over the licensed game.
Ultimately, however, the whole question of the Utter East's prehistory is most likely a product of Troy Denning, the DDTS authors, and Brian R James rewriting events of the game and Denning's Faces of Deception, and later even our own musings in the original thread, and either getting it a bit garbled (easy to mistake the two sets of ancient bound villains, especially if don't pay much attention to the rubbish game), deliberately erasing the silly bits (the game is very silly and nonsense like the Whamite Isles from The Great Khan Game has been erased from the Realms in later lore), deciding to do a better version (the game story isn't great), or writing alternate versions with the serial numbers filed off (if parts of the game couldn't be used for some reason). The merely licensed game isn't exactly canon, nor even trying to be. I feel like the authors keep trying to throw this cruft out, and we keep dragging it back in. |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2017 : 14:05:38
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Everyone does seem to be focusing on specifics a bit too much for a second rate source.
The premise of an ancient evil imprisoned beneath the ground is a fine idea. Whether the blood forges and blood golems are a means to weaken or strengthen its prison doesnt matter.
Ignore what the golems do in the game, thats computer game mechanics and not applicable. Its a golem, an artificial being with rudimentary intelligence. Having the golems merge to form houses doesnt sound like a great idea to me but making them merge to form larger golems is better.
So decide where these blood forges are located, who controls them, and what they are ordering the golems to do.
That is all that is important to a GM and the players. Then you can include a sub story about whether the golems weaken the prison or not.
Its clear that the god stuff is incorrectly placed, put it down to bad research and unreliable narrator. Not that it matters. The utter east likely worshipped gods of the various types mentioned but have different names (if that means alias to you then so be it). The gods arent going to take part in any adventure in the region so they dont matter they are just there for background flavour.
Stick with what we know about the region then alter the computer game to fit in with that rather than the other way around.
Incidentally the imasmari summoned an ancient evil creature right in the middle of inupras and it wrecked the place. It is called a krakentua in GHoTR which makes it some old batrachi monster or creation. How it got there (there were batrachi runes on the imaskari portal so its likely batrachi lived in raurin as well as the utter east) isnt important, it may have been summoned from another plane or place or the imaskari may have released it from beneath raurin or maybe even recreated one using batrachi magic.
So there may be a few of these ancient evil monsters around the utter east. |
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Edited by - Gary Dallison on 01 Nov 2017 14:09:33 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2017 : 17:27:42
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
And yet the Geomancers worshipped Grumbar specifically, and apparently we have a cult of Istishia down amongst those islands. I'd imagine the worship of the elemental lords being suppressed is being pushed by the genies, who would rather get this faith energy themselves.
This might be the base way to spin things; lets say the 'barbarian' tribesmen that migrated up from Zakhara had ancient superstitions about such beings, because the Dgen wanted to suppress worship of the elemental lords (because the only way a 'lord' can get more powerful is by making the 'king' less so). At the same time, the elemental lords would still push for their worship, so such things would have to be done "in secret" - ie., 'cults'.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
BTW, I just checked Ruined Kingdoms. The map doesn't go up high enough to show any of this area. I also checked the Land of Fate box, and it doesn't either. The only thing I can figure is that most of the map you guys pulled for this came from Blood and magic OR maybe the novel "faces of deception" had something in the beginning like a lot of them do. The Dragon #241 map only shows the barest bottom of the area.
The map from Dragon #241 is the connecting piece that borders both the other maps/settings. It more than just the maps - there is the lore as well. The Fallen Kingdoms of Nog and Kador existed in the Sempadan.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
In fact, it does look like faces of deception had a map, and though its bare bones, it may be the most developed official one there is.
http://www.candlekeep.com/downloads/uttereast.jpg
Yes - thats the map I worked off of, but I added way to much flatland there (because I followed that map too closely) - the Utter East should be mostly mountainous, with the only flatlands near the coast. I am using my continental map as a base for a newer map (just blowing up the other one and adding sites) so we can get a much better idea of a 'true' layout for the place. The only way to really see the overlap from those various sources is to provide a bigger perspective (thus, this map will 'pan back' from the view of my original Ue map).
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
and it looks like on yours you combined the map lore of Dragon 241 article and this from faces of deception, but neither mentions a beowood or shows it. Perhaps the novel itself did? Was the novel based in Konigheim (I ask this because it seems like the Mead Hall of the Northmen is listed on the map for the novel, so I assume that it and Konigheim were a bigger portion of the novel).
At the time I did that map - and IIRC when we working on the K-T and Ue threads - no-one seemed to even know about the article in Dragon regarding the Yakmen.
Two things might have happened there to create the Beowood. First, I may have been actively creating a spot for Herne's Wood and was talked out of it (BCM seems to be insistent on putting it IN the Sempedan, and that never felt right to me, despite what the VG maps might show). So I left the forest and just renamed it, trying to give it a bit of the 'Norse' feel. Second, it may have been an accident. Back then I C&P'd MOST of what I did, and I may have have C&P'd a piece of the 3rd edition map for another piece of terrain, and a bit of forest was on it, and I just like the way it looked. When I first started mapping, I used to actually do that a lot (if I liked the way something looked, I would just ignore canon, or rather 'add to it'). Its probably a combination of these two things.
I think the name comes from the novels, and the stuff there in Herne's Wood comes from the game, so there seems to have been at least some synergy between the two (why else would different creatives place a Norse-like culture in that region?) Unfortunately, everyone seemed to have ignored Zakhara and the Yakmen.
The reason why it looks like I used the Yakmen map is because it fits perfectly onto the Zakhara map of the same exact area. I mean PERFECTLY, right down to the rivers and that lake in the mountains. The map that came with FoD I have to take as 'in setting' - one drawn by the people in the book, so it is more 'representative' of the region, rather than geographically accurate.
There is some disagreement as to to the region east of Ulgarth, but we worked all of that out a LONG time ago (the original Ulgarth map in SS was done before we had an 'East' {K-T} or a Zakhara, or even a world map, which we now have several of). There are some 'badlands' terrain there, which slowly elevates up into the mountains. Think Thar, or The Stonelands. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Nov 2017 17:28:21 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2017 : 17:34:53
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Oh, and somewhat related (since I've been tinkering with all these different concepts and regions/settings)-
Ghuls are genasi. Its the only way all the lore makes sense. You really can't have 'undead elementals' (although I've found at least one in another place). Plus, I found two other subspecies in Corsairs of the Great Sea*; I had always been under the impression there was just one kind of ghul. Now I am seeing them as a culture unto themselves, and since they are NEVER called full genies - just 'cousins', I think spinning them as undead genasi really does make the most sense, mechanically. Not that that has any bearing on the Ue directly, but it is something to bear in mind for all of us, because genasi are far more common post-3e than ever, which means we could have groups of ghuls in Faerūn as well.
EDIT:
I see PF made Ghuls undead Jann. Unfortunately, D&D just got it wrong, and PF continued to the problem. 'Jann' is supposed to be the generic term for genies - a term we have been missing and I've been substituting Steven schend's term 'Dgen' for. I wouldn't need to use 'Dgen' (which I think he meant as an early form of genasi), if D&D had just gotten the damn terminology right from the beginning.
Oh, to be able to go back in time and fix all the craptastic 'spins' those early guys put on mythological and folklore creatures. The European ones they did pretty good with, and in some cases their ingenuity was inspired (like the colored varieties of dragons), but outside of the European folklore they were really our of their element.
EDIT2:
I don't think anyone has done anything (official) with AQ since 2e, right? I think moving forward in 5e, we should repurpose the word 'Jann' to mean genie-kind (as it was intended), OR, have it be a Zakhara-specific term for Genasi. It could even be both - in Zakhara, they would more likely say the specific type of genie (Djinn, Efreet, etc) when speaking about a particular genie, rather than using the generic 'Jann'. However, since genasi are technically Jann (in their culture), but there are no type-specific terms for them, they WOULD use the more generic term 'Jann' while referring to them. Thus Jann becomes both the word for genasi, and their term for genies in general. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Nov 2017 17:50:09 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2017 : 19:54:51
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| just a thought.... Ghul Lords don't use the weave. They draw upon the negative material plane (although it kind of sounds like the shadow weave which didn't exist yet, in canon lore it is still technically the negative material plane). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2017 : 20:23:37
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Could be - we have to reinterpret a LOT of older lore in the new mechanics of the universe.
So I was reading back through the thread - somehow its getting 'temporally screwed'. I don't know how, but there are entire posts I missed, and there are a couple I responded to immediately after, that now have posts between. WEIRD. The 'Elder Evils' apparently don't like their cover blown. 
quote:
From BadCatMan's earlier post
"Making the most of pre-dawn light, your trusted followers prowl the edge of the battlefield in search of suitable terrain. They release their heavy burden in a level clearing, and quickly set about their most urgent task. Your Bloodforge is fixed into the earth before the first rays of golden light touch the spires of the enemy stronghold. To calm your nerves, you recite the principles of warfare as instructed by the Great Mage."
Going by this, and some stuff I've worked-out about the BF's (Bloodforges), and taking some (very bad) artistic license, I did a mock-up of how I think they should look in D&D/FR (even if it does NOT agree with the VG).
The Bloodforge Wars
I wish I could say that was 'quick & dirty', but it actually took me a really long time, finding a swivel mirror I liked, and then pasting the rest together (and extending the original are higher, which is why its just a washed-out mess at the top). Its not supposed to be pretty (I wish it was); I just wanted to give people the same picture in their heads that I now have.
I picture it being a two-sided 'mirror' (the Easterns seem to like these for magic) - one side absorbs energy, and the other produces 'basal', or rather, a Basal Golem, which is really like a 'Magick Elemental'. For normal operating conditions, the back of it faces the sun* (or some other power source), and the front produces a golem (picture a concentrated beam of energy, not unlike the beam of light when we use a magnifying glass to burn an.. errr... leaves). Eventually the golem is fully formed,steps off the pre-placed platform, and the next one begins to spawn. Depending on the energy source and power level of said source, determines how quickly you can make them. Going by stuff I said earlier, using it with regular old solar energy gives you one per day (we can tweak this - just throwing numbers out right now).
Eventually (evil) people come to realize any type of energy can be used, and if the Bloodforge is used as a 'seal' (backside facing toward the sealed creature/being), it will absorb power from the thing sealed away. HOWEVER, using anything other than the sun - as intended- could get you undesired results (like the golems developing their own personalities - and wanting freedom - over time). I recall we had considered the 'Awakened' aspect of this a great way of getting some Warforged (note the similar name) into the Realms. But instead of Warforged, the Realms has Bloodforged, because we are just kewl like that.
Who the heck knows? House Carnnith (EB) may actually be using something very much likeR's Bloodforges to make these things - its a well-guarded secret. Also, despite how prevalent they appear in the game, I think what they can do is way too overpowered for D&D (they are artifacts! In fact, each one should be unique). Whether we continue to tie them to the 'Five Kingdoms' or not, I think we should still limit it to five (how many 'sides' play at once in the B&M video game?) As artifacts, they are supposed to disappear after they've 'served their purpose', but something could be keeping them tied to the Ue, so they only reappear there, and they still have to be 'looked for' each time).
*I added the stuff about solar energy because it gives us a very simple method of describing the 'baseline' of the BFs, and I also really like that quote - the armies are waiting for sunrise to begin using the device. I realize its just meant to be narrative, but I ran with it. Going back to my original concept for these things ('Lifeforges'), they weren't meant to be evil; its like a gun, or magic - its how people use them that makes it evil. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2017 : 20:35:45
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
just a thought.... Ghul Lords don't use the weave. They draw upon the negative material plane (although it kind of sounds like the shadow weave which didn't exist yet, in canon lore it is still technically the negative material plane).
You know whats weird about this?
They completely did away with the negative plane in 4e. In fact, I think they actually got rid of it in 3e. Yet the 3e lore around Eberron is focused (in part) on that - the 'negative' vs the 'positive' - two of those orbiting planes are just about those concepts and energies. Why would they eliminate the negative & positive planes (in 3e), and then have their "built form the ground-up around 3e" setting have them? Positive is just plain gone (its 'in the Heavens', I guess), and negative-energy stuff went to the Shadowfell, or what was just The Plane of shadows in 3e, which was all-pervasive (to the point WotC was making us gag on 'shadowstuff').
So now, with your post in mind, I am thinking there should be some 'big bad' (Orcus?) that is off-camera, and offering 'life eternal' to dying genasi, and the ones that chose it wind up as ghuls. like a Davey Jones thing (from PotC) - "Do you fear death? Swear eternal fealty to me and I can keep you in this world". We don't have lore even hinting at such a being, but now that know there is a hierarchy, i don't see why there can't be one. "Great ghuls" aren't so great - they are actually the 'common' ones. 'Soultakers' are the uncommon ones, and boss-around the Great Ghuls, and 'Withers' are the rare ones, who get to boss-around the Soultakers.
So who do Witherers listen to? In the lore, no-one, but that doesn't mean there isn't one we've just never heard about. We could make it Shar, but do we really want to go there... AGAIN? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Nov 2017 23:06:16 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2017 : 23:11:28
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At first I was going to jump all over that - it would pretty easy connecting that Castle of Al'Hanar in the Shaar to him and the early Raurindi (expatriate Zakharans).
Except, he just isn't ancient enough. He's a newcomer, compared to most Gods.
Unless Jergal was doing it before him, but then, to what end? Now that we 'know' what Jergal is, its become so much harder to use him (connect him to other stuff). What would an ex-Spellwaever want with an army of undead genasi? Use (sacrifice) them to empower some sort of Uber-Sundering to bring back his empire? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2017 : 00:14:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
At first I was going to jump all over that - it would pretty easy connecting that Castle of Al'Hanar in the Shaar to him and the early Raurindi (expatriate Zakharans).
Except, he just isn't ancient enough. He's a newcomer, compared to most Gods.
Unless Jergal was doing it before him, but then, to what end? Now that we 'know' what Jergal is, its become so much harder to use him (connect him to other stuff). What would an ex-Spellwaever want with an army of undead genasi? Use (sacrifice) them to empower some sort of Uber-Sundering to bring back his empire?
-Perhaps to somehow give him (or anyone else) some kind of empowerment in the Elemental Planes? Just like how in Game of Thrones "king's blood" is somehow more powerful when used in magic because it of a royal bloodline, perhaps the essence of Genasi can be used as some kind of catalyst to empower himself (or someone or something else) on the Elemental Planes. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2017 : 02:46:58
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Perhaps Jergal wants to obtain 'Primordial' status. Not sure what he'd do with that, but its probably not good.
Which of course ties in nicely to our Utter East musings.
I need to put more thought into Spellweavers and Illithids - I almost feel as if Spellweavers are to this universe what illithids are to the Elderverse (Far Realms). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2017 : 13:21:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
just a thought.... Ghul Lords don't use the weave. They draw upon the negative material plane (although it kind of sounds like the shadow weave which didn't exist yet, in canon lore it is still technically the negative material plane).
You know whats weird about this?
They completely did away with the negative plane in 4e. In fact, I think they actually got rid of it in 3e. Yet the 3e lore around Eberron is focused (in part) on that - the 'negative' vs the 'positive' - two of those orbiting planes are just about those concepts and energies. Why would they eliminate the negative & positive planes (in 3e), and then have their "built form the ground-up around 3e" setting have them? Positive is just plain gone (its 'in the Heavens', I guess), and negative-energy stuff went to the Shadowfell, or what was just The Plane of shadows in 3e, which was all-pervasive (to the point WotC was making us gag on 'shadowstuff').
So now, with your post in mind, I am thinking there should be some 'big bad' (Orcus?) that is off-camera, and offering 'life eternal' to dying genasi, and the ones that chose it wind up as ghuls. like a davey Jones thing (from PotC) - "Do you fear death? Swear eternal fealty to me and I can keep you in this world". We don't have lore even hinting at such a being, but now that know there is a hierarchy, i don't see why there can't be one. "Great ghuls" aren't so great - they are actually the 'common' ones. 'Soultakers' are the uncommon ones, and boss-around the Great Ghuls, and 'Withers' are the rare ones, who get to boss-around the Soultakers.
So who do Witherers listen to? In the lore, no-one, but that doesn't mean there isn't one we've just never heard about. We could make it Shar, but do we really want to go there... AGAIN?
No, in 3e there's still a negative energy plane. I had not noticed, but you are correct for 4e, it disappeared and at the same time the world suddenly filled with big black things similar to spheres of annihilation. Now, the Sundering occurred and the Negative energy plane is back. It is almost as if the negative energy plane merged with the shadowfell in 4e (similar to how the abyss got hurled into the elemental chaos?). Could it be that the feywild absorbed the positive energy plane during 4e?
Then again, some could say that this entry in the 4e DMG hints to the existence of the negative energy plane. Given that few living beings have ever gone to the negative energy plane and survived, it could easily be said that some believe that no one has ever been there.
[i]In addition, the souls of the deadthough they travel first to the Shadowfellpass beyond it after a time. Some souls are claimed by the gods and carried to the divine dominions, but others pass to another realm beyond the knowledge of any living being. [i] |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2017 : 14:40:46
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Meet Tartyron!
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tartyron
He likes kittens, long walks on the beach, and spreading chaos to challenge stagnant order. He's the most sympathetic of any character in black armour, horns, and skull mask. Of course, the campaign is order versus chaos, and chaos is neither good nor evil.
This campaign has the most "mythic", legendary feel of the five, so I'm tempted to say it could have occurred far back in history. But this is countered by the new northern or dwarven style runes warding his prison, making it contemporaneous with Northmen settlement like the other campaigns.
Given the repeated events of people of chaos freed from imprisonment in underworld tombs, first Tartyron and then his followers (peasant units only) I'm increasingly sure that, if you squint a lot and ignore the weird bits, wind forward several centuries, you could say Tartyron and his lot are the antediluvian fiends and undead imprisoned underground, as mentioned in the other sources.
Of course, a better candidate is the devil Ysdar, King of the Forgotten Ones, mentioned in Faces of Deception. Being devils, the alignment flips to law, not chaos. (Unfortunately, until the sources are fully reread and documented on the wiki, these discussions always feel to me like arguing with only half the facts.)
Anyway, stay tuned!
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Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Everyone does seem to be focusing on specifics a bit too much for a second rate source.
Stick with what we know about the region then alter the computer game to fit in with that rather than the other way around.
For my part, my focus is currently only on documenting the exact lore of the game for the wiki. I can't fix anything, but I can also just note discrepancies, move on, and let the reader decide.
The problem with these Realms-development discussions is we all have different tastes and ideas, different goals in mind, and pull in different directions. Sometimes we talk about the mechanics of bloodforges and basal golems, when they're ultimately a gimmick for gameplay. I'd rather provide the lore, settle what people want in the area, find what works and what's needed for a campaign, and see that used as a basis.
For example, basal golems basically are the warforged of Eberron. Living, intelligent golems, created at magical forges to serve in the armies of Five Kingdoms in a great war. If a PC wants to play a warforged, give them a bloodforged. The mechanics can be handwaved. Maybe they don't merge into a temple, tower, or whatever, but they are expended in building and operating one.
Mana, meanwhile, is a new system of magic, close in conception to the incarnum introduced in 3.5 edition. If a PC wishes to play a law-focused incarnate, then here is a possibility, with the Circle of Order to serve and chakras on standby with the Indian background.
This is a land with a lot of fuzzy bits that can and should be whatever anyone wants to be. |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2017 : 17:24:34
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I'm not going to worry about mechanics for now, and certainly not 3e mechanics. My assumption here is that mages of the south are all sorcerers, of one stripe or another.
The Lords of the Elemental Realms (Parsanic League) were probably Mages. It specifically says Tartyron was one of them, so unless we decide he was 'possessed' by something (it does say he 'took the name') - and I'd rather not go that route because nearby Tan Chin has beat that trope to death - he was human(ish), and became corrupted. Now, the Chaos stuff works great for us in light of the 4e/5e material, and it appears he was the Lord of Air. Thus, I would go with Pazrael (Pazuzu), who we now know was an obyrith (and there is our 'antideluvian horrors' connection), as the corrupting factor.
As for that other guy, Ysdar - he was probably someone summoned during the Bloodforge Wars, and then sealed-away. He may have been the reason for tartyron's ultimate defeat. when I read the lore - which I know is taken from two different 'sides' of the VG - it sounds like Tartyron was winning, but in the end, he was finally defeated. This may have even come post-war (but then we have to figure out who did that). If Ysdar was a huge help capturing and imprisoning Tartyron (devil vs 'demon'), then it would make the most sense that happened toward the end of the war, while the other 'Lords of the Realms' were still around and capable of such a thing. Then they seal Ysdar away as well (reneging on their bargain, probably, which is definitely why he is in such a cranky mood).
We have two problems, but if we put them together, they may solve each other. First, the lore goes both ways, because the outcome could have gone both ways. I like the idea that Tartyron 'won' and ruled the Realm for a time. I'd love to put that aside for a moment. Second, Tartyron was already BOUND when the scenarios start, thus, he was a former threat[ that returned.
What if Tartyron rose to power a bit further back in the timeline, like around -362 DR ('Year of the defilers' has a nice ring to it). Then in -339 DR the weave collapses and he is temporarily stunned/powerless, and 'his people' rise up and bind him beneath his own Bloodforge (because artifacts are one of the few reliable magics left when magic runs amok). The other Bloodforges are then scattered/hidden away throughout the Utter East. Later, Tartyron manages to break free, and we have the Bloodforge Wars (648-657 DR). It could have even been stupid adventurers hearing about an artifact and then removing it. The 'shattered stone' covering his prison would have been the cover of the Bloodforge, to hide it nature, and to bind the prison in such a way as making that the only 'exit'. As for the runes themselves - the Yehimals are right next door, and thats where FR dwarves originated, and they use runes as well. We could always throw at least one clan of dwarves in the area (in fact, the 'Realm of Lands' would work perfectly), and we wouldn't even need to explain their presence ("they've always been there").
As for Ysdar, there is nothing actually saying he was involved in the Wars, is there? He may have been summoned during Tartyrn's second rise and used to defeat him. Then he just stuck around (without knowing his story, I don't want to even assume anything else about him).
Pushing part of the storyline further back (as it should be, since Tartyron was already 'bound') means that we can either say Tartyron found the Blooforges and they are even more ancient then he (preferred, especially if we say Pazrael steered him toward them), or that he created them at that time (perfectly workable, but not nearly as interesting). Having Pazuzu and the Batrachi involved is so much more... Lovecraftian. And THAT helps us fit the current (or, as of of 2e/3e) state of affairs into the region - people getting all ugly and mutated (which I believe comes from the novel). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2017 : 17:41:31
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The difference between Warforged and Bloodforged - Bloodforged (Basal Golems) are a 'summoned' creature, very much like an elemental. Hence my thinking of them in that way (temporary, since you can turn them into other stuff). I think this is the 'base' creature (appropriate, since that's precisely what it is). Warforged are more like true golems, but with sentience. In order to make a golem, you have to first build it, and then 'turn it on' by summoning a primitive spirit to inhabit the body. Warforged are more complicated, because they eventually achieve self-awareness. So what if someone creates golem-like bodies (VERY much like Warforged), and then creates/summons the basal golem into it, thus creating a much more durable, longer-lasting (eternal?) type of Basal Golem - a 'Bloodforged warrior', or just Bloodforged. For all we know, that's the same process House Cannith is making them in Eberron (build suitable 'warrior' bodies, and then using some sort of arcane machinery to 'implant' the basal golem into it). Since I think the Basal golems are 'pure magic', and magic = 'life', it all works out. The Bloodforges themselves may have been prototypes for something the Imaskari built later on (although I would even say the Imaskari found them).
So Basal golems are not really meant to be 'long-term solutions' unto themselves, which is why others have figured out ways to make them more permanent. The 'mystic sites' almost act like arcane versions of Deepspawn, fed by the power of the Basal golem. Others have built 'armored suits' to house them, like Warfoged, or Tan Chin's armies of clay golems. I've theorized that Helmed Horrors are actually either an Imaskari prototype for warforged, or even a specific branch of that technology (because sometimes you'd prefer unthinking, obedient soldiers).
Control of the Bloodforges: Obviously, I misremembered about the 'pearls of power', or rather, I might be remembering how we spun them, way back when. What did the Pearl of Power DO in the game again? I don't believe the VG ever stated how the Bloodforges and golems were controlled; the game wouldn't have needed to... but we do. If it goes by 'owner', whatdefies that? the last person who touched the Forge? That would be a serious drawback to using them (on the other hand, it would be one way to nerf such an uber-powerful artifact). It could be why these guys 9the ones who all used the Bloodforges) only relied on created troops, rather than 'real' ones - one of your men could steal your thunder just by touching the Forge.
And lastly, it would be entirely possible to power an artifurnace in a Spelljamming ship with one of these, although then we'd have to figure out how it can leave the planet, when I've already stated that the artifacts are 'bound' to the Utter east for some reason. On the other hand, all artifacts work in that fashion - disappear and reappear elsewhere, which means artifurnace tech has already gotten around that problem. So we can have Bloodforged Helms, to go with Dwarven Forges.
Hmmmmm... what if the dwarves had something to do with Bloodforges (they come out of the yehimals originally) - 'forge' is in the name, and it is a similar principle to Deepspawn, which they either used or created. Thus, 'Dwarven (SJ) Forges' could actually be a related technology (capturing stray arcane energy and converting it to power).
Cthulhu dwarves?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Nov 2017 22:11:06 |
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NEW Utter East project thread
