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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14843 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2017 :  02:53:52  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I am also going to bring in the Dark Elves, who would have 'changed' at -10K DR, and upset the 'balance of power' in the region. The Dark Elves (or rather, just plain 'elves' in the new 4e/5e nomenclature) would have been the last group left from the original Fey inhabitants. In fact, these pre-descent elves may have even had Eladrin among them (The Maviddi were Dark Eladrin?), and it would have been mostly these 'fey' that began crossbreeding with the Ang/Mar people. Once the descent curse hit, they had to get out of the sunlight, and built vast 'anthill like' colonies (Tsaparang fortress), before finally disappearing from the world of men.


-The Dark Elves were one of the earlier Elven groups to arrive from the Plane of Faerie to Toril, not the last. When Sharlario and Durothil left Tintageer, Dark Elves had already come and had an advanced settlement in Atorrnash.
See? This is what I mean by "no matter how big I make my posts, there will still be miscommunication".

When I said 'bring in' I meant "into this homebrewed hodgepodge", not 'bring into the Realms'. I KNOW they've been in FR practically forever. I have long thought the Tsaparang Fortress was of Dark Elven origin, and now I am finally tying it into some stuff I am working on. I picture them being active not only all along the southern coast of Faerūn (Shining South), but all throughout the Old Empires (before they existed) and on up into Thay (which is actually canon)... and beyond. I think they had holding in the Taan region, especially since fey wouldn't even differentiate between different ethnicities of elves (because there may have still been a few surviving fey clusters in that area). By the time my theoretical 'Kao' (Kaomar) Empire was in decline, and the Imaskari were just beginning to feel a unified identity (quite some time before the word 'Imaskar' is ever used), even those small groups of 'leftovers' would have gone to Faerie themselves, or gone into hiding (living in very secluded areas).

The only remnant of that ancient culture would be those dark elves, before the decent curse sent them into hiding as well.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Nov 2017 03:46:50
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14843 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2017 :  03:44:15  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

bear in mind the ACTUAL definition of antediluvian. I know you're thinking like I do, and the second you hear antediluvian your mind goes "Elder Gods" and "Cthulhu". But it actually means a very ancient being/thing, so a simple primordial or "spirit being" CAN be antediluvian. Not that it has to be, and in fact there may be multiple buried things in this area of the world.... just like Eltab was buried in Eltabbar and there's demoncysts throughout the unapproachable east and Old Empires.


Definition of antediluvian
1:of or relating to the period before the flood described in the Bible
2
a : made, evolved, or developed a long time ago - ex. an antediluvian automobile - ex. that antediluvian relic known as a slide rule
b : extremely primitive or outmoded - ex. an antediluvian prejudice - ex. antediluvian in his politics
Except that Brian James was asked about this, and said he didn't mean it to mean "after the flood" (or any other such cataclysm), he simply meant 'truly ancient and horrifying' (Lovecraftian).

When in doubt, we used to go to the source. I notice we don't do that much anymore. Its more fun making up our own theories. LOL

And as I said, now that I've taken a fondness to obyriths and am respinning them a bit, an obyrith would probably be PERFECT, and since I am now considering turning Ravana (the King of the Raksasha) into an Obyrith, and I think he was imprisoned/in-hiding in the Yehimals for about 10K years, he's probably the perfect choice.

Mark's Homebrew
Originally, The Khasta were created by the primordials to help fight the celestials in the Dawnwar, who were fighting on the Estelar's side. These were basically 'empowered beasts' - beast that were first 'awakened' and then given the 'legendary beast' template. There were several different kinds. Thus, since the Prime Material was a near-infinite flat plane in those days, they had a nearly endless supply of troops.

The first Khasta created was by Zehir - known among men as 'Set' - and had a certain reptilian look about them (Khaasta). Others were also created, included the cat-like variety made by the primordial of The primal Hunt, Aslanobanion-Ubtao. After he/it switched sides, his 'troops' were without direction, and declared themselves 'neutral', and went to the Grey Wastes to ponder their next course.

When the Gods of Law began to loose ground in their war on Chaos, in desperation they called upon whoever they could find who were refusing to join the conflict. One such being was Meerclar, a minor beastlord of cat-kind. Ra approached her and asked if she could bring aid to their cause, and she told him she would bring him an army, if only he and the other Gods would allow her into their ranks. He agreed, and off to the planes she went, as is the way of her kind, sniffing and poking around in every little nook and cranny, until she discovered the despondent and bored Khasta. She came among them, and asked if they would follow her, for her form was beautiful, and much like their's. They laughed, and said, "what is in a form? We can take many, and they promptly began to do so, to show her their cleverness. Who is your leader, she declared? A large, monstrous Khasta sporting a ten-headed visage stepped up and said, "we Khasta have no true leaders, being born of chaos, but we do honor and heed the most powerful warriors among our kind. I am Ravana, and I am THE most powerful here."

"Then come with me", she said, "lead your fierce khasta in battle against the enemies of the Gods, and you shall be rewarded".
"We have no such need for rewards - we take what we want. But there is one thing we do enjoy, and that is to be left alone. Can you promise us this: if we fight for the Estelar, they swear to never hinder us in any way, no matter what we may do?"
"This I cannot promise, for only the warleader Ra may do so, so come with me, and we shall ask".

And so they went, Meerclar and Ravana, followed by an army of curious Khasta. Ra looked at them with disdain, as he heard their deal. Having just lost their most powerful ally - 'He who's name is now lost' - he was forced to accept their terms, but he made a condition. "You shall wear the forms you have forevermore. If you use magic to change, you will change back. If you are killed, severely injured, or knocked senseless, you will revert to this form. And the same must go for you, Mistress of cat-Kind. You shall be known among the gods as Bastet, the leader of my warriors, for you shall lead these into battle - my Khasta - Ra's Kasta (Rakshasa). And I swear on my honor, no god who takes the field in this war shall hamper or hinder you or yours, forevermore."

And the rest is history. The gods won, but at great cost. Ra's Khasta still go by that eponym (albeit, corrupted over the many, MANY millennia to just 'Rakshasa'). Meerclar remains Bastet (Baast), and she has become other things as well - always poking her nose in where it doesn't belong. Unlike other fiendish entities, the Rakshasa call the Prime Material home, which is a sore point among the Estelar. But the Gods kept their promise, even though at times they wished they had never made it - the Rakshasa go unmolested by those Gods that fought in the Dawn War. However, Ra was smart enough to say it in precisely that manner, and 'gods who came later' are free to pursue the Rakshasa if they so wish. Most just leave them be, though, for they have grown mighty unto themselves, and let mortals deal with this problem... mostly.

And as for Set - his Khasta were defeated. The war ended and they went to the lower planes. But he blames Baast for his defeat, and the two have been mortal enemies ever since. For it is Baast who still wears the title of 'Bastet', the leader of Ra's warriors, and it is she who must constantly remain vigilant against his machinations. Fortunately, she likes sticking her head in dark and creepy places; Ra could not have chosen better in this regard.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Nov 2017 18:25:25
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BadCatMan
Learned Scribe

Australia
298 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2017 :  08:59:23  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Tartyron wasn't 'bound' the first time? Thats where I may be getting confused. The campaign starts off talking about 'The Past' - about how he was bound by the Lords of Order. I was think he was bound twice, but now I realize he simply turned on them the first time, LOST, ad then was bound. Some time later (centuries?), the campaign time period takes place, and he escapes his prison. Since the 'Lords of Order' are NOT around anymore during the campaign (else, why aren't they helping you? Or are they?), I think by the time of the Bloodforge Wars (in the GHotR) they were no longer a thing. I am just not seeing him as the 'antideluvian horror' the GHotR speaks of, though.


You're way confused. First off, in each story in the game, you have the option of playing one side or the other, usually good guys or the bad guys. Hence every story has two campaigns, and my wiki articles are usually divided to cover them separately. In the "Tartyron Unbound" story, you can play either as the Circle of Order or as Tartyron. The game says in the intro "And from this turmoil there arose primitive nations. When the lords of order ascended to govern east of the Great Sea," so they were there at the beginning in prehistory. And it's surely the same lords of the Circle of Order who appear in the campaign's timeframe some time later; the text of the game certainly implies it.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Are you implying they are immortal Because then you may be reading far more into it then I am.


I am indeed implying, but not reading anything more than the facts of the lore. What's more, I've realised that the Lord of Flame and the Lady of Tides, at least, are not only undying, but undead. Bear with me. When you start a mission, you're given victory and defeat conditions, accompanied by respectively happy and sad/angry/upset versions of your character's portrait. For all characters in the game, this doesn't change the appearance much, and they're still alive in the image. Except for the Lord of Flame and the Lady of Tides, who, in their defeat, are revealed as apparently undead beings: emaciated, grey skin, snaggle-toothed, yellow glowing eyes. (The Lord of Lands remains unchanged, oddly, he's probably better preserved.) These are surely their true forms. They might be archliches or the like.

These playthrough videos show the animations for the Circle of Order campaign.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVo_3h6vCKc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nmKtjlI0bo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3afBTXRwMsI

So, yeah, undead. Things just get weirder. These are meant to be the righteous orderly good guys, by the way. But then, we've already seen good, or at least non-evil use of undead in Aelric the Avenger's campaign in Doegan. Utter East undead are evidently not considered evil, which puts the idea of rampaging undead hordes in potentially a different light.

The later random missions of the Legendary Campaign don't mention the lords of the Circle of Order (but then, none of them call back to the prior campaigns), so it's very possible they were deposed or destroyed in the war with Tartyron, and petty tyrants arise in their place, and the Realm of Lands fragments into what we later know as the Free Cities of Parsanic. They were probably already much reduced in the Ffolk and Northman colonisation/conquest.

In any case, meet the lovely Lady of Tides and her Realm of Tides with its exotic sunken pyramids:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Lady_of_Tides
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Realm_of_Tides

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki and Candlekeep Wiki
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14843 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2017 :  18:56:49  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, I think I get it now. I realize the lore is taken from two different (and sometimes conflicting) PoV's.

I am having a HARD time merging the Vedic-pantheon thing we have going on (which is a GREAT fit) with these guys being undead. How about 'Undying' instead? We have evidence of just such a thing nearby -
quote:
Tiger's Nest
Hidden on the southern slopes of the A-Ling Shan, this old fortress exists where none should be — across the impassable Jumpa Chasm on the cliffs of the untracked Yehimal. In short, there is no way to reach the Tiger’s Nest or to have built it where it stands, short of magic. This is, of course, precisely how the Tiger’s Nest was built.
Ages past, the Tiger’s Nest was an independent monastery. The monks and priests who dwelt there were good, and abhorred the excesses and cruelties of the Imaskari Empire. From their stronghold, the priests did all they could to defy the might of the ancient wizards, countering evil magic with powerful clerical spells. Carefully concealing the location of their fortress, they aided the peasants and thwarted the attempts of the Imaskari governors. The priests became famous as the Invisible Tigers and their fortress became known as the Tiger’s Nest.
In the end, Imaskari fell, though the efforts of the Tiger’s Nest had little to do with it. For a time, it seemed that the defeat of the Imaskari would spell the doom of the Invisible Tigers. Without an
enemy to rail against, many of the priests abandoned the fortress to carry on their good works elsewhere.
Not all left. A handful remained behind to perfect their arts. These devoted few purged their lives of all corruptive influences — meat, tea, talk, women, eventually even breathing were forbidden. Somehow, on their faith alone, the Invisible Tigers survived.
Now these former priests have become more than human. Their extreme existence has given them incredible powers. Completely dedicated to the struggle against evil, the Invisible Tigers still venture
from the fortress to carry on the struggle.

Canon from The Horde boxed set. They are ascetics, an old concept that goes back to the 2e Legends & Lore in D&D; they are sort of like mystic monks, so they can attain that final level of 'perfect body' and be Immortal. They are in the section of the Indian Mythos, BTW, so they are PERFECT for what we are doing here. As Undying, they are immortal, however they would still show outward signs of aging, albeit slowly. After a couple of thousand years, they'd look like undead because of the aging, but they wouldn't actually BE undead.

'Undying' itself was introduced in 3e Eberron - it was basically a way of having something that seemed very much like undead but wasn't actually undead (because mechanics - 3e also got rid of the concept of 'undead through positive energy', which mummies used to be). So they brought back the idea of undead that didn't have the negative-energy connection, by calling them Undying. Splitting hairs, I know, but it makes far more sense for the Vedic connections we are trying to establish here for them. Its also something that is prevalent in a lot of Asian folklore (including our own K-T lore).

And thanks to this post, I now recall the Tiger's Nest guys - a group of guys named after predatory cats, in the same mountain range I stuck my entrapped Raksasha. I think I may have found where Vibhishana has been hanging out.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14843 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2017 :  19:11:43  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And I think we need to make the Earth Guy a casualty, for no other reason then we need to paint Tartyron as being pretty damn evil - he was friends with these people before he turned on them. It (your Wiki entry) says that he attacked Earth first, so I have to assume that was his intial 'sneak attack', and that would be the best place to stick our major casualty (because in RL, people actually die - this ain't no Shonen Jump anime ).

So the Ang-Mar expand west, across the Yehimals (via Langdarma, and later, 'across the top' through Guge). They establish their culture throughout the Utter east. I hadn't pictured them being so all-pervasive, but I am starting to see how that should be. This may actually help in other ways - I can now place the arrival of the Dgen in Calimshan in my Zakharan timeline in the appropriate spot, instead of fudging stuff with time-travel (not my idea - I believe that was actually hinted at in sources... maybe). That gives me a thousand-year window to play with between the founding of Imaskar and the collapse of the Genie Empires to the south.

Thus, instead of having 'ebil Zaharan Bedine' (Bedouins) invading the peaceful Mar lands, I may spin it that the Ang-Mar themselves expand into the uE, and then went both north AND south... down into Zakhara. Thus, the Zakharans would actually be a branch of that ethnic group (and makes it even more real-worldish). They weren't attacked by the Bedine, they WERE the Bedine (back then, anyway). 10K years is plenty of time for an ethnicity to spread all over the place, and Zakhara's (non-folklore) history only goes back about a thousand years.


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Nov 2017 19:27:20
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2986 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2017 :  01:09:15  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Oh, yeah, I read that wrong.

-I've forgotten so much; so much of this sounds familiar, but it's no longer in the memory banks.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6434 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2017 :  01:25:50  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Tartyron wasn't 'bound' the first time? Thats where I may be getting confused. The campaign starts off talking about 'The Past' - about how he was bound by the Lords of Order. I was think he was bound twice, but now I realize he simply turned on them the first time, LOST, ad then was bound. Some time later (centuries?), the campaign time period takes place, and he escapes his prison. Since the 'Lords of Order' are NOT around anymore during the campaign (else, why aren't they helping you? Or are they?), I think by the time of the Bloodforge Wars (in the GHotR) they were no longer a thing. I am just not seeing him as the 'antideluvian horror' the GHotR speaks of, though.


You're way confused. First off, in each story in the game, you have the option of playing one side or the other, usually good guys or the bad guys. Hence every story has two campaigns, and my wiki articles are usually divided to cover them separately. In the "Tartyron Unbound" story, you can play either as the Circle of Order or as Tartyron. The game says in the intro "And from this turmoil there arose primitive nations. When the lords of order ascended to govern east of the Great Sea," so they were there at the beginning in prehistory. And it's surely the same lords of the Circle of Order who appear in the campaign's timeframe some time later; the text of the game certainly implies it.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Are you implying they are immortal Because then you may be reading far more into it then I am.


I am indeed implying, but not reading anything more than the facts of the lore. What's more, I've realised that the Lord of Flame and the Lady of Tides, at least, are not only undying, but undead. Bear with me. When you start a mission, you're given victory and defeat conditions, accompanied by respectively happy and sad/angry/upset versions of your character's portrait. For all characters in the game, this doesn't change the appearance much, and they're still alive in the image. Except for the Lord of Flame and the Lady of Tides, who, in their defeat, are revealed as apparently undead beings: emaciated, grey skin, snaggle-toothed, yellow glowing eyes. (The Lord of Lands remains unchanged, oddly, he's probably better preserved.) These are surely their true forms. They might be archliches or the like.

These playthrough videos show the animations for the Circle of Order campaign.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVo_3h6vCKc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nmKtjlI0bo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3afBTXRwMsI

So, yeah, undead. Things just get weirder. These are meant to be the righteous orderly good guys, by the way. But then, we've already seen good, or at least non-evil use of undead in Aelric the Avenger's campaign in Doegan. Utter East undead are evidently not considered evil, which puts the idea of rampaging undead hordes in potentially a different light.

The later random missions of the Legendary Campaign don't mention the lords of the Circle of Order (but then, none of them call back to the prior campaigns), so it's very possible they were deposed or destroyed in the war with Tartyron, and petty tyrants arise in their place, and the Realm of Lands fragments into what we later know as the Free Cities of Parsanic. They were probably already much reduced in the Ffolk and Northman colonisation/conquest.

In any case, meet the lovely Lady of Tides and her Realm of Tides with its exotic sunken pyramids:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Lady_of_Tides
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Realm_of_Tides



This puts the concept of "spirits" that occupy bodies into play. Maybe these undead are simply ancestor spirits "possessing" recently dead bodies to come back and protect their homelands

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14843 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2017 :  02:28:39  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Aelrick was a necromancer (in one pic, he almost looked a little 'vampiric', with his bat & wolf motif). I think I had connected him (his 'order', of which he was the last) to Nog and Kadar, and thus to Sahu (the Isle of Necromancers) further south. Not sure if I want to do that any more - I need to re-read the Ruined Kingdoms stuff. It might be more practical to connect the order to Bhaluin somehow. The new map has moved the Serpent Valley very far north, so its really not far outside Imaskar's lands.

The 'flavor' I got from the Sahu (Complete Book of Necromancers) material was a similar vibe as the country the Jakandor setting takes place in, with people using undead for menial tasks, like slaves (that you don't have to take care of or feed). Not really good, but more like lawful neutral. Aelric also seems that type - he has no problem with using undead, but he isn't the bad sort, either. Perhaps the son of the last Lord of Flame? He has the same bad fashion sense.

So while trying to find some sort of 'Eastern' vampire to make this guy, I came across the Jiangshi, which was basically just a zombie, unless certain things happened. Asians have a thing about being buried in their hometowns (according to Wikipedia), and when someone gets buried elsewhere, the family hires a sorcerer to go fetch the body back. The sorcerer does this by digging up the body and writing a spell on a piece of paper and sticking it to the corpses forehead. The corpse then animates and walks back to its hometown... a sorcerer can lead several of these home at once (so he can make one run and get paid for a few). If the paper falls off the corpse/zombie, or the sorcerer doesn't get paid and rips off the paper, the corpse 'goes berserk' (almost sounds like a classic golem), and will eat people and drink blood. The only reason why I am even mentioning this guy is because of the sorcerer connection - the families that did this couldn't afford to hire a cart to bring their dead loved one home.

Sooooooooo... sorcerers must work pretty damn cheap.

I also happen to totally love the flavor of this guy.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 05 Nov 2017 02:33:22
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6434 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2017 :  12:56:51  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
hmmm, so when you said you pictured Sahu as having undead like slaves... I had an immediate disconnect and figured I'd go reread the material. My mind remembered Thasmudyan as a devil lord/god of ghouls and cannibalism. However, it should be noted that the necromancer kings and Thasmudyan worshippers differed, and that the Thasmudyan worshippers were on the island first.

What I really took to notice though has to do with the fact that when I first read this supplement I knew next to nothing of Babylonian/Sumerian gods. I had been wondering if I should include Ereshkigal in the list of realms deities that are gone.... when I suddenly find the ruined city of Ereshkigal on the isle of Sahu. Given she is a goddess of the underworld and this is an island devoted to necromancers, I'm calling that this was once a home to her manifestation. Perhaps she separated herself from Nergal (because he was a d*ck) and didn't want to be around her sister Inanna (because they fought like.... um, sisters...). Perhaps Thasmudyan (noted as a baatezu lord) came along later and slew her for her divine spark.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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BadCatMan
Learned Scribe

Australia
298 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2017 :  13:56:04  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That sounds like a hilarious comedy.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I am having a HARD time merging the Vedic-pantheon thing we have going on (which is a GREAT fit) with these guys being undead. How about 'Undying' instead? We have evidence of just such a thing nearby -

Canon from The Horde boxed set. They are ascetics, an old concept that goes back to the 2e Legends & Lore in D&D; they are sort of like mystic monks, so they can attain that final level of 'perfect body' and be Immortal. They are in the section of the Indian Mythos, BTW, so they are PERFECT for what we are doing here. As Undying, they are immortal, however they would still show outward signs of aging, albeit slowly. After a couple of thousand years, they'd look like undead because of the aging, but they wouldn't actually BE undead.

'Undying' itself was introduced in 3e Eberron - it was basically a way of having something that seemed very much like undead but wasn't actually undead (because mechanics - 3e also got rid of the concept of 'undead through positive energy', which mummies used to be). So they brought back the idea of undead that didn't have the negative-energy connection, by calling them Undying. Splitting hairs, I know, but it makes far more sense for the Vedic connections we are trying to establish here for them. Its also something that is prevalent in a lot of Asian folklore (including our own K-T lore).


quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

This puts the concept of "spirits" that occupy bodies into play. Maybe these undead are simply ancestor spirits "possessing" recently dead bodies to come back and protect their homelands



I had also thought of the Undying template from 3.x-edition Eberron and the Book of Exalted Deeds. I think it's a good fit.

I've made a Circle of Order article. Nothing new, but I did find a symbol for them. Make of it what you will. The Lord of Lands is associated somehow with the Mines of Mystery (sounds like a theme-park ride), which bolsters his earth-element theme.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Circle_of_Order

Thomas M Costa created an unofficial 3.x update of the ascetic, as a prestige class called the roushi or ascetic, with a specific link to the Utter East.
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/prestige_classes.html
This ascetic doesn't attain true immortality, however, but does stop ageing, or suffering the effects of ageing.

BTW, The Horde CS, page 150, had this to be say about the Utter East: "Ulgarth and the lands south
are rumored to be strange regions, even more fantastic than the wonderful lands of the North. Valleys filled with gems, bodiless wizards, gods who live as men, and islands that sink and rise
again."

These may be garbled travellers' tales that predate any of this lore (and notably also predate Al Qadim, so it's not talking about Zakhara), but let's review. The "islands that sink and rise again" is surely the "floating islands" (mentioned in advertising for B&M) of the Realm of Tides; "gods who live as men" fits our idea of undying semi-divine Circle of Order / Lords of Creation, as well as the Sannyasi in Langdarma in Faces of Deception, both dwelling in the world among men. "Bodiless wizards" fits sleyvas's idea of possessing spirits.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

And I think we need to make the Earth Guy a casualty, for no other reason then we need to paint Tartyron as being pretty damn evil - he was friends with these people before he turned on them. It (your Wiki entry) says that he attacked Earth first, so I have to assume that was his intial 'sneak attack', and that would be the best place to stick our major casualty (because in RL, people actually die - this ain't no Shonen Jump anime ).


I'm hesitant to call him Evil, despite his costume. The theme is order versus chaos, and Tartyron's philosophy has as many positive elements as negative, so I put him at a proper Chaotic Neutral. His victory is "Tartyron returned to his rightful place among the lords of east realms", so presumably they made up and the Circle accepted his chaos as a balance to their order.

Law versus Chaos is getting to be quite a theme in the early Utter East, between the Circle of Order and the lawful Lords of Creation, as well as the Sannyasi (a LG movanic deva) of Langdarma and the devils in Faces of Deception, on the one hand, and, um, Tartyron, Lord of Chaos, on the other. It's almost Moorcockian. And Good versus Evil is already well represented in the rest of the Realms.

A lack of focus on Good versus Evil permits undead to be treated neutrally. I'm reminded of Tantric practitioners that muck about with corpses on charnel grounds to unlearn aversions.

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Markustay
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quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

Thomas M Costa created an unofficial 3.x update of the ascetic, as a prestige class called the roushi or ascetic, with a specific link to the Utter East.
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/prestige_classes.html
This ascetic doesn't attain true immortality, however, but does stop ageing, or suffering the effects of ageing.
Well, this is slightly different type of ascetic, almost like a 'Chosen (exarch) of a philosophy'. However, I think that because of the war, and/or their acceptance of Tartyron back into their ranks, they had become 'corrupted' by chaos, and hence lost their 'template'; maybe not Earth, but the other two - I picture them losing their 'ascetic' PrC because of all the chaos that happened. The Earth Guy seems to have been attacked first (in the one campaign), so I would spin it that the 'powers that be' found him "innocent of the taint of Chaos", so he manages to keep his ascetic (Exarch of order) template.

I can't believe we are building lore around the way some pics in an old VG look, but its fun.

quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

BTW, The Horde CS, page 150, had this to be say about the Utter East: "Ulgarth and the lands south
are rumored to be strange regions, even more fantastic than the wonderful lands of the North. Valleys filled with gems, bodiless wizards, gods who live as men, and islands that sink and rise
again."

These may be garbled travellers' tales that predate any of this lore (and notably also predate Al Qadim, so it's not talking about Zakhara), but let's review. The "islands that sink and rise again" is surely the "floating islands" (mentioned in advertising for B&M) of the Realm of Tides; "gods who live as men" fits our idea of undying semi-divine Circle of Order / Lords of Creation, as well as the Sannyasi in Langdarma in Faces of Deception, both dwelling in the world among men. "Bodiless wizards" fits sleyvas's idea of possessing spirits.
I had always thought most of that was about Zakhara, but I checked the publication dates (1990, 1992) and you are right. The 'bodiless wizards' thing sounds 100% like Tan Chin, who was "just to the south". However, there could have been others, and I am almost tempted to connect this circle of order to him - he'd actually be a really good fit for a group that believes the 'rule of Order' outweighs personal freedoms (amoral, iron-fisted, lawful ruler). That kind of paints Tartyron as a 'Joker' like character (an anarchist in culture of arch-conservatives).

I'm not really undertsanding what happened there with taryron at the end - he was never bound?

quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

Law versus Chaos is getting to be quite a theme in the early Utter East, between the Circle of Order and the lawful Lords of Creation, as well as the Sannyasi (a LG movanic deva) of Langdarma and the devils in Faces of Deception, on the one hand, and, um, Tartyron, Lord of Chaos, on the other. It's almost Moorcockian. And Good versus Evil is already well represented in the rest of the Realms.

A lack of focus on Good versus Evil permits undead to be treated neutrally. I'm reminded of Tantric practitioners that muck about with corpses on charnel grounds to unlearn aversions.

I'd agree with all of this. As I've said earlier, the first time around with this material I hadn't really grasped the full extent of how pervasive Mar culture may have been here. I had pictured our Indianesque culture down below Malatra (Dweepam), even, and having spread north. Now I think it may have originated far closer to the Hordelands, like around Guge, or Tabot. That small region just below Tabot used to be called Phutan (its in the Tabot material), and would probably be a great place to put the initial cultural 'outward push'.

New Stuff:
Because of that, I've been delving back into the Mahasarpa material, and sometimes things are serendipitous. The past two days (I've been very busy RW taking my son around to look at cars to buy) I've been trying to fit the Ruined kingdoms map into my new Utter East map, and I just couldn't get it to work out. I had put it aside, and then this morning tried again, with a different approach, using the Zakhara map as a base. I'm actually embarrassed - ALL THIS TIME I had though Nog & Kadar were located in the Sempadan, but they WEREN'T. They actually are right next to Sahu. What I had thought was the coast of the Sempadan forest meeting the Segara Sea was actually located MUCH further south this whole time (there is a very 'squiggly' river in both regions that threw me off - I kept thinking it was the same river).

So, having just come from doing that, and almost immediately following that up with a look at the Mahasarpa map I haven't looked at in a few years, I realized THAT would be a PERFECT fit for the Sempadan region. I'm talking IDEAL. Where I had it - over on the western coast of dweepam was a fudged-adaption. No such adaption of the map or lore would be necessary by sticking it in that region between the Yakmen kingdoms and the Larang Valleys region - its literally a huge, empty jungle between two fairly well detailed areas.

What do you guy think about that idea?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 06 Nov 2017 06:34:37
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sleyvas
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Just to note too.... it could be that these various "Lords" are actually something akin to Chosen of the elemental lords or leaders of powerful cults in their names. I note the following

Markustay brought this up the other day
Long before the reign of the First Grand Caliph (which I believe means back before the AQ timeline even begins, about a thousand years ago), the Corsair Domains were called the "Isles of Fear", and were home to "a terrible cult which worshiped an elemental water god called Istishia".

Obviously, I'm leading into the concept that the Lord of Flame would be a cultist/chosen of Kossuth.

Then we know that somewhat nearby the Geomancers were ruling in the Nogaro River Valley sometime in the past. They were big on glyphs, and we have this concept that when Tartyron is "resealed away" it has some glyphs involved. Depending on timing, it may be that these geomancers travelled to Zakhara either before or after the bloodforge wars (i.e. maybe THEY are the reason that the Zakharans came over to the Utter East to wipe out this threat when they heard from some of their cultists in the Utter East). It should be noted that the geomancers were also ajami wizards (i.e. they used magic of the type used in Faerun with schools of magic). These Geomancers could also have been a group that broke away from the circle of order. Thus, this grouping of the circle of order may have broken away long ago, and thus this is why there's only a Lord of Tides (water), Lord of the Land (wood), Lord of Flame (fire).... because the "Lord of Stone" took his geomancers down to Zakhara maybe after he helped them seal away Tartyron long ago (having had a falling out with the other members of the circle of order).

Which comes back to Tartyron, "the Lord of Chaos", as still being a "Lord" of Metal. Maybe he even followed a powerful primordial entity called Telos? I wonder, might he have tried a ritual meant to "draw power" to Telos... or something similar... and infused him with energy from the "plane of negative energy". Hmmm, maybe he even infected some of the other lords with negative energy? I think I have a little bit of a story here... it needs tweaking...


Still going down the path that the other members of the Circle of Order

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

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Posted - 06 Nov 2017 :  03:35:28  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I'd agree with all of this. As I've said earlier, the first time around with this material I hadn't really grasped the full extent of how pervasive Mar culture may have been here. I had pictured our Indianesque culture down below Malatra (Dweepam), even, and having spread north. Now I think it may have originated far closer to the Hordelands, like around Guge, or Tabot. That small region just below Tabot used to be called Phutan (its in the Tabot material), and would probably be a great place to put the initial cultural 'outward push'.


-For what it's worth, archeologists believe that Tibet was first populated by immigrants coming from areas to the north (the Dzungar and Tarim Basins of Xinjiang AKA East Turkestan). Different worlds, but the topography is kind of the same, with the Yehimals being the Himalayas and yada, yada, yada, it would seem to make more sense that, if the opposite happened and people and culture were leaving, they'd move the opposite way (the path of least resistance)- in the direction of the Arakin, Kao Shan, and Chu Yuan provinces of Shou Lung, Fengnao province of T'u Lung, Petan, and Malatra. Of course, magic changes things a bit in that now people/groups can completely bypass stuff like impenetrable mountains, but...

-Also, was it Faces of Deception you mentioned as never being able to find it reasonably priced? If so, eBay has a listing for $4.00.

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Edited by - Lord Karsus on 06 Nov 2017 03:37:32
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Markustay
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Well, then, I should get that. Is that one of the the Double-Diamond books?

As for Tibet/Tabot - they did run into resistance - the Haltai people were emigrating from the island kingdoms to the coast, and the Cortai people were migrating outward from the Taan region (some went straight west, and became the proto-tethyrians, proto-Talfir, and proto-Chondathans). Amnother branch of Cortae (Issa-Cortae) headed east, but eventually were squeezed between south-migrating Gur and west-migrating Haltain (FR-Asians), and were forced into the far north (Ama Basin).

Facing several different groups of warlike barbarians to the north, they found it was easier to just migrate around the Yehimals (down through the Sempadan from Tempat Larang, and up and around Guge), and eventually, they even found a way to cross directly through the heart of the mountains (Langdarma). There were Saurials (lacerials) in the Maltra region, and also a large population of Yuan-ti (and several different types of beastfolk, including at least three different varieties of 'apemen') in the jungles, but they just migrated through and around them into the Dweepam and Maltra regions (its a HUGE area).

Mountains never stopped people, not even our RW Himalayas. I'm thinking something similar to the Indo-Aryan culture of Earth, which spread outward from India into the Pakistan/Afghanistan regions, right on into the Middle east (pre-Sumerian, Babylonian, and Persian). Thus, they are a great template for own pre-culture in K-T.

The Realms of Order:
My spin on the Order guys is that they were religious AND civic leaders for the Vedic pantheon in the Ue region, and they each had a different patron (Vasu), associated with the elements - Agni (fire), Prithvi (Earth), Vayu (Air), and Varuna (Water). These would just be AngMar (FR Vedic) aspects of the four elemental lords we know. BTW, Chandra would make a great pre-split Selūne/Shaar (ya know, before she went all wack-a-doddle and became two people).

However, because of the whole 'Order' thing, the Mar lived in peace and tranquility for thousands of years. When aggressives outlanders showed-up (the fflok and northmen), they no longer even knew how to wage warfare. This was what Tartyron was trying to teach them - the Mar people had grown docile and unambitious because of their easy-going culture. Tartyron figured out that 'strife' was a necessary element else life becomes stagnant. Although the surviving lords may have learned the lesson, by the time those 'barbarians' showed up they had forgotten it again.

And now here I am, reconsidering putting the creation of the Bloodforges ('Lifeforges') on the Vedic gods. I feel like I am going through all the same thought processes I did a decade ago. Five(?) 'cornucopia-like' devices that gave the people everything they needed (food, clothing and shelter), and then Tartyron got disgusted with the whole thing and figured out how to get his 'Forge' to do other stuff. I suppose its tragic he was defeated and returned to his place, because in the end, he was right. The Mar people had become 'sheep'.

Someone used the term 'Moorcockian' earier - thats also a good way to picture it. In the Elric books, Elric had traveled to a world where 'Law won', and it was a boring, grey wasteland (no life). Life needs Chaos (strife) to grow and flourish.

Anyhow, the Mar got 'pushed out of the way' (like Native Americans) as the new settlers stole all their land (among worse atrocities). Mar survived in rural 'pockets' that no-one wanted to bother with, and also the Vanesci hamlet (which no-one wanted). The last vestige of the 'Realm of Lands' was in the far north, on the border of Ulgarth, and there the descendents of the Lords of the Lands each held one city, dedicated to their elemental gods (which became their civic deities). The only reason why they were left unmolested in that region was the same as elsewhere - it was rather poor soil, enclosed by mountains (filled with monsters), and it had nothing of value. Today this area is know as the Parsanic League, and it survives by trade*, but it is now a cultural mix - very few 'pure' Mar remain.


*Goods coming up overland from Zakhara usually wind up here, before they are 'shipped out' to the rest of Faerūn. By the same token, items that are valuable down in Zakhara also pass through here. Apparently, most 'normal folks' don't like to stop at Doegan or Koenigheim - the strange people in those countries make everyone nervous. Now that the Corsairs have become 'civilized' (in the past century or so... but not really), more trade is findings its way north and south by boat, and the Parsanic League is currently struggling to keep itself relative. They've begun to delve into mining - something that has been taboo since before the Bloodforge Wars, and a few veins of copper, iron, and even gold have been found. Experts feel that even greater wealth can be found if they go deeper, but as of yet they have stayed fairly close to the surface. The mountain monsters are not as bad as they once were, but they also still present a problem form time to time (adventure!)

I have some cool stuff planned for the Parsanic League, both dark and whimsical at the same time (so kinda creepy, as well). First off, they hire Minotaur mercenaries through nearby Esbresh, and those troops have been the main reason the monster population in the mountains has gone way down. The cities are like varying degrees of Luskan, except run by corrupt priesthoods rather than Wizards and Pirate Lords. In fact, they HATE pirates (although in the City of Tides, the authorities will look the other way for pirates that pay homage to Varunae (Istishia) - in other words, give the church a big, fat 'tithe'. The other cities are starting to catch on to this practice, so its just a matter of time before things come to a head (another war?)

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 06 Nov 2017 06:58:36
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Markustay
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Posted - 06 Nov 2017 :  07:05:52  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Telos is too far away to connect to the Ue - I'd rather give them their own primordial. Or maybe just Ravana is good enough (if we spin him as an obyrith like I want). I have some good, old lore I wrote about the mountains and the Raksasha a long time ago - I have to rewrite all that (I even bring the Arcane {Mercane} into the mix). Then maybe a couple of other powerful demon lords, but not archfiends. One 'big bad', and maybe a couple of lieutenants (not every Bloodforge should have something sealed-away behind it - a couple should still be left hidden somewhere that aren't 'busy'). In fact, Redfang should probably be a lieutenant that didn't get 'locked away' (or maybe he escaped during the last BF War). I suppose Ysdar(?) can be another, once I know more about him, but not everything in the uE needs to be connected to the Forges.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 06 Nov 2017 16:11:23
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sleyvas
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Posted - 06 Nov 2017 :  13:36:41  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Telos is too far away to connect to the Ue - I'd rather give them their own primordial. Or maybe just Ravana is good enough (if we spin him as an obyrith like I want). I have some good, old lore I wrote about the mountains and the Raksasha a long time ago - I have to rewrite all that (I even bring the Arcane {Mecane} into the mix). Then maybe a couple of other powerful demon lords, but not archfiends. One 'big bad', and maybe a couple of lieutenants (not every Bloodforge should have something sealed-away behind it - a couple should still be left hidden somewhere that aren't 'busy'). In fact, Redfang should probably be a lieutenant that didn't get 'locked away' (or maybe he escaped during the last BF War). I suppose Ysdar(?) can be another, once I know more about him, but not everything in the uE needs to be connected to the Forges.



Yeah, even after I wrote Telos, I thought.... hmmm, maybe someone else, similar but different. That way he could have been freed but then somehow "captured" and mined against his will. My first thoughts were to have his body be made up of a metal/rock mixture like magnetite rather than a pure metal. Not sure of all the uses, but my first thoughts center on electricity via some kind of electromagnet OR some kind of "natural" recording nature. Naturally, maybe they can make some kind of limited use magic item introducing magnetism. Then of course, there is the fact that magnetite is primarily iron.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

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BadCatMan
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Posted - 06 Nov 2017 :  14:09:57  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

The Earth Guy seems to have been attacked first (in the one campaign), so I would spin it that the 'powers that be' found him "innocent of the taint of Chaos", so he manages to keep his ascetic (Exarch of order) template.


The Realm of Lands is attacked second in both campaigns. In the Circle of Order campaign, Tartyron goes straight to the Realm of Tides and is kicked back to Lands; in the Tartyron, he attacks the Realm of Fire in his break-out, then moves onto Lands (though this is his first formal conquest). Evidently it was better to consolidate, as a great mage of bloodforge warfare learns. :)

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I'm not really undertsanding what happened there with taryron at the end - he was never bound?


Tartyron was always bound the first time around, and escapes before the campaign starts. In the Circle of Order campaign, if they win, he is bound again, but may escape in future. In Tartyron's campaign, if he wins, he isn't bound again.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I'd agree with all of this. As I've said earlier, the first time around with this material I hadn't really grasped the full extent of how pervasive Mar culture may have been here. I had pictured our Indianesque culture down below Malatra (Dweepam), even, and having spread north. Now I think it may have originated far closer to the Hordelands, like around Guge, or Tabot. That small region just below Tabot used to be called Phutan (its in the Tabot material), and would probably be a great place to put the initial cultural 'outward push'.


Where is Dweepam from?

The Hordelands is well cluttered, IMO, I favour a more southerly origin.

AFAICT, everything in southern Kara-Tur below Petan, the Warring States, and Malatra down to the sea, is utterly unexplored and unknown. It might be the largest lore-empty stretch land in all of the mainland Realms. Except for this vague reference in the 1st-edition Oriental Adventures, page 136: "Deep in the jungle are the remnants of an ancient empire that once held sway over all the southern lands. Ruled by a race of evil snake creatures (possibly yuan-ti), this empire corrupted and transformed several of the human groups it came in contact with." I haven't been able to find yuan-ti anywhere else in Kara-Tur lore, but I don't have the Living Jungle resources for Malatra to confirm or correlate.

But you know where humans have third eyes? Konigheim. And scales? Tharkar, in the Free Cities of Parasanic. Gills? Doegan. (All just from the Realms of Mystery short story.) What if this corruption and mutation remained in the human slaves who would become the Mar?

Several human groups implies several distinct human ethnicities or tribes that would spread out in different directions. Southern Kara-Tur is well-placed as the centre of a Mar human diaspora to the lands of northern Zakhara, and the South Asian– and South-East Asian–themed cultures of more northerly Kara-Tur (where Tempat Larang and Petan are rather Indonesian, Malatra is various kinds of SE Asian, Bawa and Bertan are more Filipino), and west to the Utter East.

In my notes from ten years ago, I noted that Faces of Deception (a full novel, not one of the DDTS) said that the Mar were born in the Yehimals. That might bear a lead.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Just to note too.... it could be that these various "Lords" are actually something akin to Chosen of the elemental lords or leaders of powerful cults in their names. I note the following

Markustay brought this up the other day
Long before the reign of the First Grand Caliph (which I believe means back before the AQ timeline even begins, about a thousand years ago), the Corsair Domains were called the "Isles of Fear", and were home to "a terrible cult which worshiped an elemental water god called Istishia".

Obviously, I'm leading into the concept that the Lord of Flame would be a cultist/chosen of Kossuth.


I offer this cryptic mission statement from B&M's later legendary campaign: "Raven Remahr is a fearless mage who has settled within the Realm Of Fire. In this blazing place there burns a powerful flame, which none have ever mastered. You can not permit your opponent to tame this mighty inferno..." I don't know what it is, but I keep thinking of the flaming pillar primordial in Laerakond.

Meanwhile, I'm still inclined to an Earth theme for the Lord of Lands. He has an association with the "perplexing" Mines of Mystery; at one point, the game says "the Lord of Lands who was sheltered by the Mines of Mystery." Whether that means he was protected by the mines as a defence (they allow quick hidden travel under the battle-map) or he dwells within them, I'm not sure. The Realms of Lands is not mountainous, but very earth-y. The Realm Of Fire meanwhile, is wholly underground.

Notably, there's a major temple to Grumbar hidden somewhere in the Wu Pi Te Shao Mountains, parts of which border the Utter East:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Wu_Pi_Te_Shao_Mountains

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sleyvas
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Posted - 06 Nov 2017 :  14:57:34  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Let me ask you this.... were the Lord of Lands, Tides, and Flames portrayed as "GOOD" or were they simply portrayed as "orderly". BTW, this thread has gotten me so interested in the area that I hunted down the double diamond triangle series and faces of deception.

Also above you mentioned some of these people having weird deformities (third eye, scales, gills, etc...). Not that I'm a big fan of the races presented in races of incarnum, but would the Rilkan (with their scaly skin) fit with the region (not thinking they'd be the Mar, as they tend towards chaotic). Would the Rilkan fit in (the ones with the spikes who seek to attain "perfection")? Also, the idea of the Sapphire Hierarchs definitely would seem to fit the region.


Hmmmm, and as I dig more on the incarnum piece... those races are "reptilian" and they were created by the "Mishtai" a long lost race of people who were seeking perfection of form. So perhaps they were a combination reptile/humanoid folk, but not Sarrukh, who were also creating other subraces. Given your wonders above, they MIGHT fit as this race below Malatra as well.

Hell, the Segarran people (crocodile headed followers of the ancient goddess Segarra) might fit into this equation.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 06 Nov 2017 15:07:44
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Markustay
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Posted - 06 Nov 2017 :  17:12:47  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jambu Dweepam is a name I found a LONG time ago for 'mythic India', and I've been using it ever since to describe the region below Malatra (and Malatra is completely misplaced on the FRIA maps - its not even close to the size its supposed to be).


I have other comments, but I'm still doing some reading - Incarnum is one of my least-favorite 3e core books, and now I think I recall why. The lore isn't bad, and neither are the races (I just found them a bit unnecessary, until now). Its the art. Its not terrible (its way better than what I could do), it just the stances. Its like every bad comic I've ever seen - the men look heroic, and the females are bent into weird positions that make NO SENSE. Plus, as I said, I found 'yet another magic system' for 3e annoying - its not like us DMs didn't already have 50 splats worth of garbage to remember.

Be that as it may, I hadn't realized how well a lot of that material fits the uE, which is why I am now reading through it again.

@BadCatMan - we are going to have to make some decisions regarding which way to spin the lore. The Wiki can have it 'go both ways', but we can't.

And Tartyron still confuses the crap out of me. Here I thought he wasn't bound either time, and you're saying he was bound both times. Why was he bound in the first place? Are the Lords of Order just into 'Bondage'?

Here's an idea - he was bound the first time because of his 'radical ideas' (allowing more chaos into their lives). Then he escapes, and show them what chaos is all about (the campaign). I don't think those two things should be that far apart - maybe twenty years? Then a longer period of time should go by after that campaign, before the Bloodforge Wars. And that just made me think of......

Another idea: What if whatever 'big bad' is trapped below the Ue is something truly ancient and primal (yes, exactly like a primordial LOL), that feeds off of conflict, like perhaps some sort of ancient (original?) 'WAR God'. The Lords of Order were tasked to watch over the region for that reason - to keep peace there, because anything else will 'feed the monster', which might break free someday. We don't need to really define this thing, BTW - it never 'got out'. The reason for my thinking all this is the involvement of the Zakharans at the end of the war - some sort of 'Doomsday Prophesy' had started to become fulfilled, and the Zakharans reacted to it. Cultures with lots of genies tend to have this sort of prophesy/Fate/destiny thing going on, so it fits. I could possibly even tie it into the ancient history I have for Zakhara - that at first it was a land ruled-over by the Rakshasa, and then their genie servants rebelled and kicked them out (and I am now thinking with the help of the Vedic pantheon). Most of the Rakshasa Lords (Archrakshasa? LOL!) were bound beneath the Yehimals, including Ravana, who is something a lot greater than just a Raksasha Lord. Later the genies wind-up becoming as bad as their former masters, and their slaves/servants rebel, and the dgen flee... to Calimshan. I have a LOT more detail for all of that, but thats a different thread topic - I just want to give you guys the abreviated version to show where i'm coming from.

So, if Ravana IS the 'big bad', then he should probably still be trapped, I would imagine. Thats why the Zakharans showed up -he is the ancent lord of that land, and they don't want him stirring.'Conflict' empowers him, and he could break free. The 'horrors' that were being unleashed on the east were just a physical representation of his stirring (which would then cause more of that negative emotional energy he was feeding on). I had it my K-T musings that Ravana was released not that long ago (I think I put that somewhere around the end of 2e), but I think it would make more sense now that only most of his lieutenants were released, and THEY are working to try to get him free.

Oh, and the Rakshasa were why the dwarves fled the Yehimals, and why its 'taboo' among the Mar to dig in those mountains, and why The Vedics placed Langdarma (and the devas) there to 'watch over it'...

And why The Dock was built in a very stupid place, and why the Arcane are VERY sorry they ever tried upgrading it to a Class-A starport...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 06 Nov 2017 17:15:43
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Markustay
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Posted - 06 Nov 2017 :  17:48:01  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I had it where Ravana's brother Vibhishana was Bauhei, The Black Panther, but I think I may make Bauhei Vibhishana's son instead (so more like an exarch). Still debating that, though, because I don't think Vibhishana should be more than exarch either (but if I make his brother a primordial or Obyrith even, then he should scale with him). Also, I've been thinking about Vibhishana being the patron of the Tiger's Nest monks (ascetics) (its in the Yehmals, and TIGERS!), but Tigers/Raksasha have a particular look, and The Black Panther has a different look. Not sure, thoug, since i think Raksasha's should really look like all sorts of predatory cats.

I also placed ancient 'beast Men' in the regions around the Yehimals - the (canon) Yakfolk to the south (Al-Qadim setting), minotaurs on the Utter East and Ulgarth side (FR), and Goatmen (Ibixians) on the K-T side of the mountains, because there is a TRULY ancient temple (like, pre-Imaskar) in that region with depictions of 'Beast Men', and that's part of the reason why I have the Raksasha's holed-up in the Yehimals - they experimented with creating many of the best-human hybrids we have like Quoggoth, and the Wemics (they also created the tabaxi... from Tabaxi). Ravana and set were on very good terms, BTW - they shared data on a lot of things (like Ravana showed Set how to create shape-changing Lizardmen from normal ones).

Part of the problem with my hombrewed lore is that its all interconnecting, which works great for me, but perhaps not-so-great for people wanting to use some of it piece-meal.


No feedback on me putting Mahasarpa in the Sempadan region? its truly an awesome fit (right down to the river!) I want to also add the horse-headed Kinnara to the mix of beastmen, because its also very 'Indian' in flavor.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 06 Nov 2017 17:58:25
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Markustay
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Posted - 06 Nov 2017 :  18:50:17  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am going through Mad Monkey vs Dragon Claw for info right now (mostly concerning The Black Leopard), and I am getting the idea that the people of Tu'Lung were very different from the northern Shou - I think whereas the northerns (Shou Lung) were native Haltai (FR Asian) that were mixed with the (Anok-)Imaskar invaders (the two had been mixing for several thousand years), the southerners were more of the Ang-Mar racial stock, and stayed 'truer' to that. This is why The Black leopard remained a thorn in the side of Shou emperors (I am leaning back toward just having him as Vibhishana again - I can do something else with the Tiger's nest).

I really need to do one of those GIF maps that show 'racial migrations' very soon. The early Ang-Mar would have expanded outward from the lower K-T region (Petan?), and met little resistance early-on, when they were still mostly tribal. they went the natural path, and formed-up into kingdoms over time, and then they began to come into conflict with other (less developed) 'savage' tribes, including beastmen and goblinoids lead by Wang-Liang (Ogremagi), but for the most part, their superior culture and technology won-out.

Until they came up against the newly-arrived Imaskari, on the other side of the mountains from Guge. The stupid king of Guge picked a fight with them, and lost. For the first time in their long history, they were soundly defeated. this is when they began to lose ground to the Imaskari, and others, pushed-back into their original lands and broken into smaller kingdoms over time.

I have to keep reading source-material (from FIVE different sub-settings!!!) to get the timeline straight. I believe this is where I ran into problems the last time.

EDIT:
Also building a more traditional (Indian) folklore based storyline for the Nagas and Yuan-ti of the eastern lands. Gonna try to fix the discrepancies between D&D lore and Hindu lore (because OUR Yuan-ti are their Nagas!) I can't find anything outside of D&D that says nagas just had human heads. Heck, even WoW got them far more correct than D&D did. Thank goodness I have the Lacerials down in Malatra (Canon), because I can bring the Sarrukh into play as well.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 06 Nov 2017 18:56:13
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Markustay
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Posted - 06 Nov 2017 :  19:37:00  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Aha! Found my way of reconciling the references to the 'Kao Kingdom' in The Horde, Kao Shan, and the kao Dynasty of Shou Lung. There was a bad period called The Black Cycle of Years (-274 - -225 DR), wherein there was constant fighting (and invasions) between the northern Shou empire and the southern lands of Tu'Lung.
quote:
–225 DR Year of the Golden Staff
The Black Cycle of Years ends in Shou Lung with the coronation of Wo Mai, a noble claiming descent from Nung Fu himself. Wo Mai recovers the Emblems of Imperial Authority from the crypts beneath the Imperial City, rallies the armies and other nobles, and crushes the rebellious outlying provinces. Wo Mai becomes the first Emperor Chin of the Kao (High) Dynasty.

Wo Mai* was of a Mar (southern) bloodline! It all makes sense - the south would not join the empire peacefully, but somehow Wo Mai (the guy famous for hist 'Acorn' artifact) manages to seize the throne from the First Empire of Shou lung (otherwise know in the west as 'Anok-Imaskar'). So the Kao dynasty is a homage to the old 'Kao kingdom' (which was probably the last remnant of a Kao-AngMar Empire). The province of Kao-Shan is named after that last piece of the Kao Kingdom.

I know this all sounds like I am doing Kara-Tur history (which I am), instead of Utter East, but it all ties together through the Mar in the uE. It all fits one of the most basic cornerstone concepts of FR - EVEY 'realm' is built on the bones of another.

And Mar of Guge (Kao-Shan) discovered The Dock in the Yehimals, and took to Spelljamming! And they became the Mar-Shans!

Too much?

EDIT:
*IIRC, Wo Mai also helped Tan chin capture the Celestial Dragon and create the Dragonwall, which is why am not spinning it that he killed him. At some point in time, 'Tan Chin' simply disappeared. Also note he took the name 'Chin' himself... wait a minute!

Could that have been Tan Chin at that point? He was discredited (that whole fiasco involving Meilan) and goes into hiding for a few years, and then he takes on the persona (and perhaps the body) of one of K-T's "heroes of old"? That would be a brilliant (and less loss-prone) method of getting the southern provinces to chill-out and become part of the empire peaceably.

Tan Chin... such a complex individual. Hero to some, villain to others. He just wanted ORDER.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 06 Nov 2017 19:47:06
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Markustay
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Posted - 06 Nov 2017 :  19:57:25  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And now I just realized something else - Tan Chin - an Imaskari emperor (and thats canon) - created the Dragonwall.

Out of a Celestial Dragon.

Celestial Dragons are part of the Celestial bureaucracy... they're gods.

An Imaskari, capturing a GOD, and turning it into a wall. Hmmmmmmm.... me thinks I found where the scepter went...*
Regardless, we have another clear case of an Imaskari Archwizard completely disrespecting the Celestial Bureaucracy - a group of gods. I can see now why they turned on him.


*Actually, he used The Jade Mirror - yet another Imaskarkana?
Also, it was Kar Wuan that Tan Chin created the Dragonwall with, NOT Wo Mai. My bad.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 06 Nov 2017 19:58:17
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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 06 Nov 2017 :  23:39:01  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I have other comments, but I'm still doing some reading - Incarnum is one of my least-favorite 3e core books, and now I think I recall why. The lore isn't bad, and neither are the races (I just found them a bit unnecessary, until now). Its the art. Its not terrible (its way better than what I could do), it just the stances. Its like every bad comic I've ever seen - the men look heroic, and the females are bent into weird positions that make NO SENSE. Plus, as I said, I found 'yet another magic system' for 3e annoying - its not like us DMs didn't already have 50 splats worth of garbage to remember.

Be that as it may, I hadn't realized how well a lot of that material fits the uE, which is why I am now reading through it again.

-There's a reason I was always pushing Incarnum. The system itself, as in the rules, didn't really get and still don't, but the concept was a cool concept. A pretty eastern concept to a degree, turning soul energy inside your body into something tangible- maybe not conjuring magical soul blades and affixing them , but stuff like focusing and attuning your chakras and doing superhuman stuff.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

And now I just realized something else - Tan Chin - an Imaskari emperor (and thats canon) - created the Dragonwall.

Out of a Celestial Dragon.

Celestial Dragons are part of the Celestial bureaucracy... they're gods.

An Imaskari, capturing a GOD, and turning it into a wall. Hmmmmmmm.... me thinks I found where the scepter went...*
Regardless, we have another clear case of an Imaskari Archwizard completely disrespecting the Celestial Bureaucracy - a group of gods. I can see now why they turned on him.

-I might be misremembering, but in Dragonwall, I am vaguely remembering that it goes into a little detail about when the Dragonwall was created, and said dragon wasn't exactly presented as godly, for what it's worth. Those were good books, though.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 06 Nov 2017 23:42:59
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Markustay
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Posted - 07 Nov 2017 :  17:06:57  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't know... a thousand-mile long dragon sounds pretty godly to me.

Buuuuuut... I think they retconned/fudged that a bit somewhere (Dragonwall novel?), and said that the dragon was 'petrified', reduced to 'dust' (they ground him up?), and mixed with the mortar. And somewhere else they noted that parts of the wall have been destroyed over the centuries, regardless of the dragon's power within it, and those 'patched areas' do not hold the enchantment, and can be breached by normal means.

However, in the novels (IIRC), the Tuigan somehow managed to release the entire dragon (its 'spirit'), so that the entire wall became unenchanted (so, still a very big wall, but just normal stone now). Then in 4e, they just blew the damn thing up (which makes very little sense in terms of how the Spellplague worked, since the magic was already gone).

If I ever get back to Kara-Tur proper (which I doubt - I need to focus on Faerūn), I'll have to fix all that. Maybe after the Tuigan pulled back out of Shou-Lung, armies of Wujen were sent by the emperor to re-enchant the wall, a section at a time, so that instead of just the 'spirit of a demigod' residing in it, it would have had literally thousands of individual enchantments placed upon it to strengthen it against conventional attacks. Ironically, it would have been all those enchantments that would have gone off like an atom bomb when the Cerulean wave rolled over it.

So there... all fixed. Wall gone - we don't have to get headaches over it anymore.

Homebrew:
Instead, I now picture a 'landrise' separated by a massive (Grand) Canyon. The Taan side is over 100' higher than the Shou side (its actually a vest plateau), so when you stand on the edge in the Hordelands you are looking across a mile+ chasm down at Kara-Tur on the other side... and there is a 'river of lava' at the bottom (because lava rivers are just so kewl). There is only one safe way to cross - the Obsidian Arch. A series of volcanoes had appeared an erupted in the Quoya desert, and sent a great 'wave' of lava toward the new chasm, which washed over and across, creating a 'lava arch', which hardened. After the seismic activity subsided, dwarves out of Siremun (Firepeaks) investigated, claim the thing, and began to hollow parts of it out. Today, the dwarves (who's numbers have swelled due to an influx of dwarves from other kingdoms, like the Korobokuru of the east, the Glittering Spires, and a large number of refugees from the The Great Rift) have a city built within the massive arch of stone, and charge travelers to use the interior to cross the Dragonchasm, which has become quite lucrative for them. Folk are welcome to try and cross over the top of the stone arch free of charge, but the howling winds of the Wastes and sulfurous steam which constantly bellows up from the canyon make it an extremely unpleasant proposition, if not downright deadly.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 07 Nov 2017 17:12:23
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