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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Oh, but this tale its highly maleable. It seems is not connected with the Original Sundering, as well. It happened over the eons, and before there was life in the planets. So, potentially before and during the Blue Age, eons before the Days of Thunder. So, eons before Asgorath threw an ice moon to Abeir-Toril, forcing Ao to separate the worlds.

Give a pair of hours, and I can reconcile this with all the Dawn War lore.

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Originally posted by Markustay

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

The cake is a lie! LOL sorry, couldn't resist.

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Not just the Cake; the pie has been misleading you, and the parfait can't be trusted. I think the jello is okay... just don't turn you back on it.

As for an 'afterlife' being a form of 'imprisonment' - just because its enjoyable doesn't mean it isn't still being a prisoner. And besides, if I went to the afterlife my (former) church told me about, I think I would find both the company and music (harps?) rather boring after a very short while. In fact, every 'interesting' person I've ever known is probably going to 'that other place'. I could be a die-hard, tree-hugging Druid, but after a few millennia in Arboria I would never want to see another tree again. Just my opinion, of course. I kind of liken 'afterlives' and religion to being born in citizen of a country, except at least you get to choose 'which country' you want to be a citizen of... forever, and ever, and ever (even after death - they even keep the body LOL). You know what the difference is between true freedom and imprisonment? You don't have to ask someone else for permission to leave. Heaven is just a prettier jail, is all. You can't ask 'God' if you can have a 'holiday in Hades' just for a change of pace.

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Originally posted by Markustay

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Oh, but this tale its highly maleable. It seems is not connected with the Original Sundering, as well. It happened over the eons, and before there was life in the planets. So, potentially before and during the Blue Age, eons before the Days of Thunder. So, eons before Asgorath threw an ice moon to Abeir-Toril, forcing Ao to separate the worlds.

Give a pair of hours, and I can reconcile this with all the Dawn War lore.

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I hadn't really thought about putting it BEFORE the Dawn War, or any of the other 'core lore'. I suppose I may have been looking at it the wrong way, which is that 'core' (D&D) supersedes 'setting'. That info about the Core/PS/Great Ring Cosmology had to have taken place BEFORE anything setting-specific, which Selūne and Shar are. However, the official (canon) rule has always been (at least, in the TSR days) that 'setting' lore overruled 'generic' (core) lore.

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Not sure if this changes anything, but with the onset of 5E, isn't FR now the 'core' setting?

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I think that "setting trumps over core in specifics, but core trumps over setting in generalities". The Dawn War seems to be a generality, because it happened in too many settings to be transformed into something that just happened in the Realms and wasn't connected to all other stuff. Specifically, the Nentir Vale world (renamed the Dawn War setting in 5e), the Realms and Dark Sun are specifically mentioned to be part of this multiversal war in Heroes of the Elemental Chaos, while settings like Greyhawk are indirectly tied, because of the Demonomicon sourcebook, that retconned all of that stuff of the obyriths in Fiend Folio, and the battle of Pesh (Miska and the Wind Dukes). So even more settings (even those that weren't brought back in 4e) may have been involved in this war retroactively, as well.


IHMO, one thing we have to do to reconcile conflicting lore, is that we have to separate the Sundering of the First World with the Sundering of Abeir-Toril (we need another word besides sundering...), because as I see it, are two different events.

So, the Shattering of the First World maybe is what in 4e parlance was the destruction of the Lattice of Heaven. The Lattice of Heaven is described as an "all-powerful" connection that... well, connected all before the Dawn War. The primordials destroyed it during the first stages of the war (I guess, this was the first battle, in fact), so this spot is perfect to say here is when the First World got shattered and the diverse D&D worlds began to exists.

So, the Shattering of the First World must have happened eons before this batrachi guy said "hey, what's the worst that can happen?" that fateful day in -31000 DR.

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Not sure if this changes anything, but with the onset of 5E, isn't FR now the 'core' setting?

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No, the core setting in 5e is the "D&D multiverse" (WotC's words). FR is just the "selling setting" (as in, is the only one they are selling right know) but is not the main setting or something. Even all core products are neutral.

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

So, its not a myth. Is something that happened (because it happened in many worlds, not just Toril), that is shrouded in myth. Just that people on Toril did not know about it, forgot about (either because time fades even legend, or because the gods didn't wanted mortals to know about this war), while the dragonborn and other Abeirans have had remembering those tales (because they were living with Primordials). And people in other worlds (such as Athas or the Nentir Vale's world) have recollections of this war as well.

The only ones oblivious about this fact (at least, until the Spellplague) were the Torilians...

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Originally posted by Aldrick

We need to find some wiggle room here because this lore does not make much sense. Primarily because according to the canon, some Primordials (like Ubtao, Kossuth, and others) maintained links with Toril. Torillians also had extensive access to the planes, and numerous people had traveled them. It seems almost impossible that no one would know about the existence of Primordials until the Spellplague.

Is there some wiggle room somewhere? Is there any way for us to reconcile stuff so that it makes sense?

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Originally posted by Aldrick

Does any of this stuff even still apply in 5E since they changed the Cosmology (again!)?

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Originally posted by Aldrick

Zeromaru X -

Ugh. That gives me a headache. LOL.

The frustrating part is that they want to have their cake and eat it too. I do not so much mind the, 'The Cosmos is complicated, mortals cannot fully understand it' mindset. It's things like having Asmodeus hurl the Abyss into the Elemental Chaos to end the Blood War, and then having the Blood War start up again that frustrates me. Or it is like having Shar be responsible for the creation of the Shadowfell. That stuff cannot be fixed with an 'it is whatever you want it to be!'

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As Ao watched Midnight and the other gods return home with their faithful, he felt a deep sense of relief. At last, his gods might start fulfilling the tasks for which they had been created.

The overlord was sitting cross-legged and alone, surrounded by a void so vast that not even his gods could comprehend it. Of all the states of being he could assume, this one was his favorite, for he was at once in time and disconnected from it, at once the center of the universe and separate from it.

Ao turned his thoughts to Toril, the young world that had consumed so much of his attention lately. Surrounded by a hundred planes of existence and populated by a variety of fabulous beings both sinister and benevolent, it was one of his favorite creations –and one that he had come close to losing, thanks to the inattentiveness of its gods.

But in two of its inhabitants – Midnight and Cyric – Ao had found the fabric of the Balance, and he had called upon them to right the world. Fortunately, they had answered his call and bound the fulcrum back together, but it had been a dangerous time for Toril. Never again would he allow his gods to threaten the Balance so severely.

Ao closed his eyes and blanked his mind. Soon, he fell within himself and entered the place before time, the time at the edge of the universe, where millions and millions of assignments like his began and ended.

A luminous presence greeted him, enveloping his energies within its own. It was both a warm and a cold entity, forgiving and harsh. “And how does your cosmos fare, Ao?” The voice was at once both gentile and admonishing.

“They have restored the Balance, Master. The Realms are once again secure.”

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Before the Time of Troubles, the question of who the gods answered to was a philosophical conundrum better suited to sages than priests. During the coming of the Avatars, however, it was revealed that the powers themselves had a deity, or at least a more powerful power who had the ability to chasten and punish them for their actions. This entity is Ao (AY-oh). He was present during the Time of Troubles, yet since that time has retreated to his home plane, dimension, or existence, and has not responded to mortal entreaties since (though one paladin claims to have seen him in a vision). While the inhabitants of the Realms are aware of Ao’s existence, there is little reason for them to call on him or seek his words of wisdom, which would be unforthcoming in any case.

Ao is the only over-power in Realmspace. Ao lies beyond the bounds of the rankings of deities’ powers in any way. He is considered to be more powerful than any other power and all powers combined. Ao has little concern for day-to-day mortal life, but he regards the powers of the Realms as his creations. He requires no worshipers and grants no spells to mortals. It is doubtful that he even listens to mortal prayers or pleas. He serves as a watcher and a guardian over the Realms from outside of its cosmos.

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Powers can come into existence in a number of ways. In the Realms, although some powers are described as being the children of other powers, these births seem to be more a convenient way to describe the relationships among deities than an actual method for new powers to come into existence. At least, no power is believed to have ever directly given birth to another while mortals were in existence. One power, Tyche, split into two deities, Beshaba and Tymora, and this occurrence has had precedent. When necessary, powers seem to be able to carve themselves into at least two separate pieces, with at least one of the parts becoming an entirely different being.

Long before the Time of Troubles, Ao evidently created some of the powers of the Realms, as well as the crystal sphere of Realmspace. However, he left the Realms powers to change and evolve for millennia untold before deciding that he needed to readjust the balance of the Realms and set in motion the events of the Time of Troubles.

During those millennia, the powers split themselves, gave birth, killed each other, raised sufficiently powerful mortals to godhood, and welcomed wave upon wave of emigrant powers, brought by waves of mortal emigration from other spheres, into their ranks. They were unchecked in their proliferation and self-destruction. Only after the Time of Troubles did Ao take an active part in the generation of new powers, the resurrection of dead Realms powers, and permission or denial of the emigration of multispheric powers into the Realms.

After the Time of Troubles, in order for a candidate for divinity to attain godhood, Ao must give his consent. He does this either formally in a presentation ceremony carried out beyond the eyes of mortals or informally by allowing a being to become a deity in the Realms. Usually a mortal attempts to become a deity through the accumulation of power, the use of arcane rituals, the use of artifacts, the sponsorship of an already-established power, or some combination of these. At some point in the process, Ao makes a decision. If that decision is “no,” the candidate does not become a deity.

Often in attempts to attain divine status through powerful rituals or the use of artifacts, failure (in the form of a tacit “no” from Ao) results in the mortal becoming a lich, being transformed into some other form of odd undead creature, or being totally destroyed. Usually if a divine power is involved in some sort of sponsorship of a candidate before Ao, a rejection means that the mortal either continues on in life, hoping to overcome whatever the cause of Ao’s rejection was and to be given a second chance, or passes on into the afterlife to become a powerful servant of the sponsoring deity in the Outer Planes. Ao is never obliged to explain his decisions.

In game terms, in order to even attempt an ascent into godhood, a mortal in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting should have achieved at least level 25, have one attribute score of 21 or above, and have another attribute score of at least 19. She or he must then spend a great deal of time researching methods to attain divinity, come up with a plan for doing so, and confront great peril in order to execute that plan. The plan must always involve at least two of these three things: the performance of a specially researched ceremony or spell of elaborate complexity, great cost, and great personal danger; the use of an artifact; or the sponsorship of a deity.

If all of these conditions are met, the DM may, at his option, allow Ao to smile upon the attempt and elect to invest the character with demipower status. Characters granted such status become part of the culture’s pantheon. If they are player characters, they are removed from play and treated as a demipower from that point on.

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Beings that we know (in canon) that maybe are of the same level as Ao (and that we have to take into account because of the multiversal approach of 5e):

-High God from Dragonlance
-Tharizdun from Greyhawk (or at least, the home version of him in Gygax's home campaign. Note that this version of Tharizdun exists as a parallel version of regular Tharizdun in 4e)
-Io, in draconic mythology (he created the multiverse in their myths—and I'm not talking of Asgorath here)
-Eberron, Khyber, Siberys, dragons of the same level of Io in Eberron
-Demiurge, the "first cause" in the Nentir Vale's world.
-The Lady of Pain, potentially in this level as well.
-Jazirian and Ahriman, likewise.
-Mok'slyk, the Serpent (if exist)

The Master, the one who outranks those beings.

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No one knows for certain how many primordials exist. Hundreds were spawned in the beginning of the cosmos, and many were slain in the Dawn War long before any tale of their names or deeds was recorded in the lore of mortals. Even the weakest primordials are monsters of terrible destructive power, capable of crushing all but the mightiest mortal heroes and laying waste to whole kingdoms. The greatest primordials are so strong that even the gods fear them.

The list presented here includes many primordials known primarily from their presence in the world of Abeir-Toril, and a couple found on the desert world of Athas. The Dawn War was a battle with many fronts, and Abeir-Toril and Athas suffered in the war of gods and primordials just as many other mortal worlds did. Whether these Abeiran (or Athasian) primordials are known in worlds beyond their home worlds is questionable; the existence of multiple primordials with similar natures and interests suggests that (unlike some gods) these beings are naturally concentrated or anchored to physical existence in one specific corner of the multiverse, and do not appear in multiple worlds.

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

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Originally posted by sleyvas

History of the Sisters of Light and Darkness:

This was the birth of the world and the heavens. After Lord Ao created Realmspace, there was a period of timeless nothingness, a misty realm of shadows before light and dark were separate entities. Within the dim chaos stalked 13 lords of shadow, the Shadevari - whether their form came from elsewhere or are children of shadow itself, none can say.

Eventually this primordial essence coalesced into twin beautiful goddesses who where yin and yang to each other; there were so close they thought themselves as one being. The Two-Faced Goddess created the heavenly bodies of the crystal sphere and together infused them with life to form Earthmother, Chauntea. (Although Chauntea has since contracted her essence to encompass only Albeir-Toril, in the beginning she embodied all of the Realmspace.) This new universe was lit by the face of the silver-haired goddess, who called herself Selune, and darkened by the welcoming tresses of the raven-haired goddess, Shar, but no heat or life existed within.

Chauntea begged for warmth so that she could nurture life and living creatures upon the planets that were her body and limbs, and the two sister Who-Were-One, become divided, as for the first time they were of two minds. Silvery Selune constested with her dark sister over whether or not bring further life to the worlds. During this great conflagration, the gods of war, disease, murder, and death, among others, were created from residues of the Deific battle. At one point during the battle, Selune seized the advantage and reached across time and space to a land of eternal fire. Fighting the pain of the blaze, which burned her sorely, she broke off a fragment of that ever-living flame and ignited one of the heavenly bodies so that it burned in the sky and warmed Chauntea.

Incensed, Shar redoubled her attack on her injured twin and began to snuff out all light and heat throughout the crystal sphere. Again Selune gave of herself and tore the divine essence of magic from her body, flinging it desperately at her sister in defense of life in the sphere. This essence entered Shar, ripped an equal portion of energy from her, and reformed behind her as the goddess of magic, now known as Mystra, but then as Mystryl. Though Mystryl was composed of both-light and dark magic, she favored her first mother Selune initially, allowing the silver goddess to win an uneasy with her more powerful dark twin. Consumed by bitterness at her defeat, Shar vowed eternal revenge.

The twin goddesses contested for eons as life struggled into existence on Toril and the other planets under Chauntea's watchful gaze. Shar remained powerful, but bitterly alone, while Selune waxed and waned in power, often drawing strength from her allied daughter and sons and like-minded immigrant deities. Over time, Shar grew strong again, aided by the shadevari who preferred night to blinding light and who stalked the Realms seeking to meld light and dark into shadowy chaos once again. Shar's plot to reform the world after her own devices was undone when Azuth, the High One, formerly the greatest of all mortal spellcasters and now consort to Mystra, (incarnate successor to Mystryl), found a way to imprison the shadevari in a pocket-size crystal located beyond the edges of the world by creating the illusion of a realm of shadows. The Lords of Shadow were drawn to investigate, and before they discovered the trick, Azuth imprisoned the shadevari with the Shadowstar, a key of shadows forged by Gond. The High Lord then hurled the key into the endless reaches of the cosmos allowing life to flourish on in Chauntea's loving hands.

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Oh, but this tale its highly maleable. It seems is not connected with the Original Sundering, as well. It happened over the eons, and before there was life in the planets. So, potentially before and during the Blue Age, eons before the Days of Thunder. So, eons before Asgorath threw an ice moon to Abeir-Toril, forcing Ao to separate the worlds.

Give a pair of hours, and I can reconcile this with all the Dawn War lore.

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Originally posted by Aldrick

Canonically, most--if not all--of this stuff is just mythology. The War of Light and Darkness--the Netherese creation mythology--is explicitly depicted in that way. The Dawn War appears to be a Dragonborn mythology, as there was no concept of the Dawn War until the Dragonborn arrived, and 4E lore explicitly makes the claim that the updated version of the popular creation mythology comes from the Netherese, the Dragonborn, and the Sarrukh.

I think the only absolutely factual claims that we can make about the time prior to the Tearfall is that the world had been around a long time, that there was probably an Ice Age of some sort prior to the Days of Thunder, and that Lord Ao was around. Pretty much everything else is educated guess work and out-and-out speculation.

As for Shar, Selune, and Mystra there is no evidence that I am aware of that has them around prior to the time of Netheril.

I think there is a real danger here of people going down false and misleading paths by trying to reconcile (and thus making factual) the various creation mythologies. It is entirely possible--even likely--that none of it happened, and if something even remotely resembling it happened it likely happened radically different than the people of the setting believe it happened.

A good case in point is the myth of Dendar the Night Serpent swallowing the sun. That probably did not happen. It is a complete myth. However, there may have been a natural Ice Age. Which is more likely? That a powerful being literally swallowed the sun, plunging the world into an age of darkness, sending the planet gravitationally hurling through space, or that the planet simply had an Ice Age due to natural (or magical) forces?

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

[quote]Originally posted by Aldrick


Ubtao, Kossuth, Grumbar are powerful beings, seem to be good friends with the gods, so maybe are gods. Better to pay respect (something to take into account is that they weren't affected by Ao's wrath in the ToT... so, at least the guy who retconned them to primordials did his homework).

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Originally posted by Aldrick

Zeromaru X -

Ugh. That gives me a headache. LOL.

The frustrating part is that they want to have their cake and eat it too. I do not so much mind the, 'The Cosmos is complicated, mortals cannot fully understand it' mindset. It's things like having Asmodeus hurl the Abyss into the Elemental Chaos to end the Blood War, and then having the Blood War start up again that frustrates me. Or it is like having Shar be responsible for the creation of the Shadowfell. That stuff cannot be fixed with an 'it is whatever you want it to be!'

Then there is the whole issue of Toril being inhabited by numerous races from an untold number of different worlds. How many worlds have the Elves and Orcs colonized? None of them ever brought word of a primordial over, ever?

Like you said, we have to accept that there is a lot of retconning. However, I was hoping for a solution where we could just declare a whole bunch of stuff mythology and popular speculation. That then would give us space to smooth out the rougher edges of the retcons.

We still might be forced to go down that route, and have something like the lines of, "In recent years it has become popular among the most knowledgeable sages to believe..."

That way we are not technically overwriting anything regarding canon, we are just--um--smoothing stuff out and choosing to ignore all the bad patchwork jobs WotC did.

Soooo....

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Okay, so basically we have two major wars between deities and primordials that we need to account for... The first is the Dawn War which happened sometime early in creation. The second is the (unnamed) war that took place around Tearfall, resulting in the twinning of Abeir-Toril.

So, let's start with some basics. We are dealing with deities and primordials, but it is clear that Lord Ao is greater than both. However, we have no idea what Lord Ao is, and we know there are others like him--he even serves another who he views as a Master.

This means that if Lord Ao was around at the creation of Abeir-Toril, then so were these other beings. Does anyone have any idea who or what these beings are, or want to take a stab at an educated guess?

It seems that they serve some type of cosmic balance. They have the ability, at least judging from Lord Ao, to basically do whatever they want to deities and primordials within the Crystal Sphere that they govern. They seem to have complete control over the laws of nature and reality. The only thing that seems to hold them in check is the dedication to the cosmic balance. They do not require worship like deities.

Does anyone want to take a stab at it?

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Beings that we know (in canon) that maybe are of the same level as Ao (and that we have to take into account because of the multiversal approach of 5e):

-High God from Dragonlance
-Tharizdun from Greyhawk (or at least, the home version of him in Gygax's home campaign. Note that this version of Tharizdun exists as a parallel version of regular Tharizdun in 4e)
-Io, in draconic mythology (he created the multiverse in their myths—and I'm not talking of Asgorath here)
-Eberron, Khyber, Siberys, dragons of the same level of Io in Eberron
-Demiurge, the "first cause" in the Nentir Vale's world.
-The Lady of Pain, potentially in this level as well.
-Jazirian and Ahriman, likewise.
-Mok'slyk, the Serpent (if exist)

The Master, the one who outranks those beings.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

at least one part needs to change. Zotha created the crystal sun, so Zotha being Asgorath wouldn't work.

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Originally posted by Markustay

I think that might cover everything. Too bad I don't know the 4e lore better - I need to look at those 'creation myths' closely before I can fine-tune this (Is Abeir actually mentioned in the Dawn War material? Thats a bit of headache, if so). I am looking in the Wiki right now *UGH* Yes, some tweaking will be in order. I can work with it, though, since I don't think the 'First World' was shattered until the end of the conflict, so the Glaur fortress would have been on the region of that world that would become Abeir-Toril. Dender, on the other hand, is going to give me headaches.

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Originally posted by Markustay

So Shar and Selūne fought together, and Bahamut and Tiamat also fought together, against the primordials in The Dawn War. Hmmmm....

So whats with that? After they won the war, the were still feeling onery and started fighting each other?

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Many sages believe that crystal sphere warming is a naturally occurring phenomena. They say that the older a system is, the warmer the sphere. If this is the case, Realmspace is the oldest system encountered thus far. This warming allows for comfortable spelljamming anywhere within the sphere.

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

That implies that dragons were created by Shar and Selūne, but... Shar and Selūne are powers known only in Realmspace, and dragons exists in other spheres too. And in some spheres (like Eberron) they are older than the dragons of the Realmspace (and older by a "millions of millions of years"-margin).

Since the myth of Io exists in too many spheres, I guess that this myth (that was Io the creator of dragonkind—Asgorath is just the name Io has in the Realms, because Torilians are somewhat hipsters (?) and like to change the name of the gods) is more closer to truth than any other myth.

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Originally posted by Markustay

So Shar and Selūne fought together, and Bahamut and Tiamat also fought together, against the primordials in The Dawn War. Hmmmm....

So whats with that? After they won the war, the were still feeling onery and started fighting each other?

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Originally posted by sleyvas

at least one part needs to change. Zotha created the crystal sun, so Zotha being Asgorath wouldn't work.

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Zotha's a jerk. He's not my friend anymore.

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