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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 00:33:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Basically, he's a horny seal? He must be a Navy Seal! 
But yeah, I can see Selûne getting annoyed; "Hey Zotha, I'm the only one who does any 'mooning' around here! Take that!"
Zotha: "Yeargh! Ye got me lass! And why am I talking like Elminster? Who won't be born for another 30,000 years..."
And now I have Johnny Cash's song 'Ring of Fire' running through my head... but with a video of the Big Bang playing behind it.
Well, there was that... and well, he also hit on Selune AND her sister in the same century. Shar even let him go into the dark, forbidden, taboo areas, just to piss off Selune. Selune then decided she was going to make Shar jealous by dating some guy who could shapechange, but he ended up just trying to abuse Selune and take her power. I think his name was Garyx. This made Selune cry, and Ulutiu used her tears to make the crystal part of the crystal "moon" around this guy who just broke up his potential three-way he was trying to setup. Then, Selune, mad as hell lit the damn thing on fire, so that this crystal "moon" became a crystal sun.
Later, Asgorath gets freed (she's Garyx's old girlfriend), and she flies up, hurls the ice moon "Zotha"/"Ulutiu" at Toril, and then breathes on the "crystal sun" to free Garyx from the shell, but it kills her in the process, even as Garyx impregnates her (because he's THAT FAST). Baby dragons fall to the face of Toril. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 00:47:22
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You know what, sadly... I think that story I just made would work canonically. I literally started it as a joke, but.... It fits the whole realmspace thing where Selune fell in love, cried and created a gem to contain he betraying lover "and his minions". It just has Ulutiu helping to use the tears to make the crystal instead of Selune doing it totally herself.
Hell, if we somehow linked Ulutiu to the loss of the original sun and the ice age and "loving" Shar... after all, I honestly see Shar (or something related to what became Shar) being on the side that wanted to get rid of the sun.... it could make sense... Ulutiu is a primordial and it was the primordials verus the gods. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 03:14:36
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There is a plot twist to all of this, though: Asgorath is one of the primordials still active on Toril in canon (as per 2e Draconomicon, Cults of the Dragon and Heroes of the Elemental Chaos—in HotEC is where is clarified that Asgorath is a primordial worshiped like a deity, like Kossuth or the other elemental lords).
That's why I'm saying that having Selûne and Shar as the creators of dragons contradicts current canon (its more confusing, though, that Io is considered to be both, a god—as Io—and a primordial—as Asgorath*).
And as Heroes of Elemental Chaos says that it was Asgorath the one who "hurled a comet at Toril", so it seems that Asgoroth is a mispelling... and Zotha wasn't a moon. Was a comet.
Here is the pic. Is a fragment of the (not so) "complete" list of primordials depicted in 4e products. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 10 Aug 2017 03:26:09 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 04:37:00
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And Annam was on the side of the gods, I think, so it makes sense... even though its terrible.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 04:53:38
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Curiously enough, Annam is never depicted as a primordial in 4e (there is one Annam, mentioned in a Nentir Vale product, but we have no knowledge of him beyond that he maybe created a being that maybe was a primordial or not).
More contradictions appear when we take into account stuff like Piranoth creating the giants and titans... but maybe he only crafted the ones from Nentir Vale. Rorn, on the other hand, is more problematic, because he is from Abeir Toril, as he created one branch of giants, contradicting the "Annam created all giants" stuff. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 05:13:23
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| Maybe Dazzler's right; the problems are just too much - there no way of reconciling everything without ignoring at least some things. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 05:49:10
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But those problems aren't from 4e edition, to be sure. A friend of mine has this book, Monster Mythology from 2nd edition, that's really a beautiful thing. He borrowed it to me because he saw it was more useful to me as I'm the DM (it seems I'm locked forever in that role in my D&D group). And reading that book, I have found at least three gods that created the multiverse on their own, while the other gods just created in what they founded: Io, Annam and Jazirian and Ahriman (this one is from Planescape). So... those contradictions exists from wayback 2nd edition, it seems.
4e at least tried to create a cohesive creation myth for all worlds that didn't contradicted itself. Obviously, that means contradicting a lot of older stuff... but the older stuff contradicted itself as well, so, 4e did nothing new there. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 10 Aug 2017 05:54:59 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 07:00:13
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I'm still not sure why you guys are tying yourselves in such knots regarding these myths. 
What are you going to do when more myths are introduced into the equation? We know that there are more myths out there, they just have not been revealed in Realms canon yet.
It's why I advocate for the approach of trying to figure out what is factual. That is how the myths are actually useful. For example, is this or that myth based on an actual event? Did this or that cult or faction have a reason to push this myth over others, if so why, and what does this tell us about the history of the Realms?
Let me give an example of how this works in the real world. Some years ago I watched a whole series of online lectures from Yale about the Old Testament. They are still online and can be found here. In particular Lecture 3, Lecture 4, and at least part of Lecture 5 would be of interest to this discussion.
I point people in this direction because I think it is the most productive way to think about these mythologies and myths. Look at how a real life scholar examines and breaks things down, and examine how she discusses dealing with multiple sources. Taking this sort of mind set and then bringing it back to deal with fictional work is helpful. I decided to rewatch those lectures that I linked too, just to refresh my memory, and as I listened to them a thought occurred to me--something important that we have not discussed.
Where did the information on the Dawn War come from? It came from the Dragonborn. The whole notion of Primordials also came from the Dragonborn. The Dragonborn came from Abeir.
I think it is reasonable to conclude that the Dragonborn exist on multiple worlds. We do not know where Dragonborn came from, but we do know they were not native to Toril prior to the Spellplague. This means that they either had to be created/born/whatever after Abeir was twinned from Toril, or they had to come from another world to Abeir--similar to other races have immigrated to Toril from other worlds.
We also know that Abeir did not have any deities, and if they did they did not survive long after the twinning of the worlds. So what is the basis of the Dragonborn belief that the Primordials fought deities? Is this a Torillian assumption? The Dragonborn do not seem to have the same conception of deities as Torillians do. A word that is used when referring to the deities, perhaps a Primordial word, is Estelar. What if the Estelar are not deities in the way that they are conceived of by the Torillians? What if they are similar entities to Primordials like Archfey, Archfiends, and other such beings? What if Estelar actually translates to and means something like, "the False Ones" or "those who are False?" What if Primordials have a conception or a psychology similar to that of beholders, where they view themselves as being the physical perfection of creation? We know a little bit about the psychology of the Elemental Lords like Kossuth, which are said to be primordials, and they do very much view themselves in this light. In fact, the Elemental Lords tend to be hostile toward each other--Kossuth and Istishia, as an example, are harsh rivals if not enemies. How would these beings view something like an Archfiend--a Demon Prince or one of the Lords of the Nine? They are all roughly the same in terms of power.
EDIT: Another contradiction and problem. According to the mythology surrounding Ubtao, which can be read about in Faiths and Pantheons as well as Powers and Pantheons, Ubtao made an agreement with the other deities. That agreement stated that in return for being given exclusive rights to be the only deity worshiped in Chult (basically: stay out of my backyard), that he would guard the Peaks of Flame against the prophesied doom of the world. According to this prophecy Dendar, the Night Serpent would emerge here and devour the sun. This is always pointing toward some future date, but 4th Edition lore has it happening in the past.
One of the things 3rd Edition lore introduces is that Shar has violated this pact by absorbing Ubtao's enemy/evil twin called Eshowdow. The text is explicit about what this means for the future, implying something ominous might happen.
My speculation is that other cults also started to make a move into Chult, especially as the region started opening up more to the surrounding world through trade. This would have caused ideological problems for the Ubtaian Priests. It is possible that this mythology started to undergo revision, as these new cults began to make an appearance in Chult. One of the easiest ways to reconcile this inconsistency is to have Dendar the Night Serpent already devour the Sun--but in a pre-history... before anything even really gets started.
It becomes easy to connect that mythological event to the sparse Sarrukh testimonials of a time of darkness and ice. As I said previously, the Sarrukh sources were likely refering to an extended Ice Age--not the Chultan mythologies.
Another interesting fact is that Ubtao has also fragmented into numerous nature spirits, much the same way as the World Serpent fragmented. One of the reasons that this is interesting is due to the location of Chult. World Serpent worship was strong in this region, and it is likely that humans of this region were enslaved by both Yaun-ti and Sarrukh at various points in history. I speculate that Ubtao may simply be a fragment of the World Serpent that the human slaves worshiped, and once they gained their freedom, their cult evolved eventually into the Ubtao cult we are familiar with today. ...and of course, like all fragments of the World Serpent, it also fractured and split. |
Edited by - Aldrick on 10 Aug 2017 07:39:40 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 08:38:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Where did the information on the Dawn War come from? It came from the Dragonborn. The whole notion of Primordials also came from the Dragonborn. The Dragonborn came from Abeir.
It came from the sarrukh from Okoth, and it was later corroborated by similar accounts of the dragonborn of Returned Abeir. The FRCG, (p.41) says this:
The most common account of Toril's prehistory traces its roots back to ancient Netheril. This popular human myth recounts the creation of the universe by Lord Ao and the epic struggle between the gods of light and darkness that followed. Only recently have other, more ancient legends come to light, recounted by the sarrukh of Okoth and echoed by the dragonborn of Returned Abeir. By combining common threads from both accounts, backed by diligent factfinding missions, scholars and historians of today* have gained a clearer understanding of the creation of the universe.
And the fact that the stories of the primordials came from the sarrukh (and were just later "echoed" by accounts from the dragonborn) is the whole turning point of this. The sarrukh are immortal planeswalker beings (many of them are in fact, the same sarrukh that ruled Okoth in the Days of Thunder) that have been traveling in the Outer Planes for millennia. So, while the info from dragonborn can be regarded as myth** (something that can be said also for the Netherese myths), the info from the sarrukh must be taken as a reliable source, even if biased.
My question is, do the Netherese myths have a source that can help us to confirm them as "closer to truth" as well? And the gods cannot be used for this (sadly, because that stuff of Amaunathor saying that he was Lathander in a novel, and Chris Perkins retconning that saying that Lathander and Amaunathor aren't the same being, so Amaunathor became a liar...)
*Today in this case was 1479 DR
**But in canon, we know that the dragonborn myths are closer to actual truth, because the escaped slaves from Skelkor (some of them founders of Tymanchebar, and thus current Tymanther) can commune with beings such as the spirit of Arambar and other spirits from the past and future, so their myths have a reliable source, albeit if a little bit biased, perhaps.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
We do not know where Dragonborn came from, but we do know they were not native to Toril prior to the Spellplague.
In fact, there are native dragonborn from Toril since the Time of Dragons. (Yeah, I wonder why they didn't use those instead of the Abeiran ones...)
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Ubtao made an agreement with the other deities. That agreement stated that in return for being given exclusive rights to be the only deity worshiped in Chult (basically: stay out of my backyard), that he would guard the Peaks of Flame against the prophesied doom of the world. According to this prophecy Dendar, the Night Serpent would emerge here and devour the sun. This is always pointing toward some future date, but 4th Edition lore has it happening in the past.
There is the potential that it will happen again, so Ubtao still is the prisonkeeper of Dendar, according to Heroes of the Elemental Chaos. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 10 Aug 2017 08:44:59 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 10:35:31
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As the insomnia goes on, lets dive in this topic a little more.
The sarrukh were the ones who brought about new information (the Dawn War stuff). So, we have the following points:
1. Sarrukh myths had recollections of the Dawn War (as Ouroboros the World Serpent was involved in the conflict—so, mind, this happened before the World Serpent became divided into many gods).
2. Dragonborn myths from Abeir echoed those of the sarrukh (as incredible as it can sound, it seems dragonborn from Abeir knew of Io, Bahamut and Tiamat—even if there weren't gods in Abeir—, and they also, obviously knew about the primordials).
3. Yet, the sarrukh accounts (and potentially, dragonborn accounts as well) doesn't contradict the Netherese myths (as Selûne, Shar and other gods that "born in the conflict"—I guess, the rest of the Netherese pantheon—were involved in the Dawn War).
4. Chultan myths are also somewhat involved in all of this (as it reveal the origin of the enmity between Ubtao and Dendar).
Now, there is a question of mine: I see that you prioritize the sarrukh myths over the others. Is there a reason for this?
The Sarrukh gods are old, yeah, but so are the primordials (they existed even before the Goddess of Light and Darkness was created, in 4e myths) and so are also the dragon gods (Io is as old as Jazirian or Shekinester—even older if we go by the fact that Asgorath—who is Io—is a primordial).
Is there a reason to believe the sarrukh myth is the true one? Or a least, the "closer to truth"? Or is a preference of yours?
Can't Shar, Selûne and Shekinester exist as completely independent beings, unrelated one to the other? This is more true for Io/Asgorath*, as this god is known in multiple other spheres, and so cannot be Shar or Selûne. In fact, is some of those gods is masquerading the other, should in be in the inverse: Io would be Shar** or Selûne instead (as those goddesses aren't known in other spheres).
*Yeah, his/her death is completely conflicting with that fact that s/he later reappears during the Original Sundering to throw ice comets to Abeir-Toril, as Asgorath. And later on, in the time of the First Rage of Dragons, appears (as Io) to rise Kurtulmak and Kuraulyek as gods... (this is in the Grand History as well).
**There is this novel that says that Shar is from other sphere, though. But this contradicts her origin story as the other coin of Selûne. And we don't know her name in that sphere, nonetheless.
Now, more contradictions...
FRCG, p.200:
Of old, the Dawn Titans (the primordials) fought the Estelar (gods) and were humbled. Great was the slaughter among the Dawn Titans, but they retained Abeir for their own. Seared and ravaged by the divine fires of their foes, the few who survived were tired from strife. Sensing this, their steeds the dragons turned on and rose against the Dawn Titans, slaying more, until nearly all who yet endured retreated into the very stones of the mountains and fell silent.
From Gontal: the Dominions of Nehu (Dragon 375)
The Dawn Titans (the primordials) fought the Estelar (gods) and were humbled, but they retained Abeir for their own. Many primordials were slain in the conflict, but others survived within great fortresses. Few among the surviving primordials were prepared for the treachery of their own steeds and companions. When the dragons turned on the Dawn Titans in the War of Fang and Talon, many primordials who survived the divine war were destroyed, including the one whose ruined fortress now lies shattered across northern Gontal west of Lake Glaur.
From Wandering Stones (short-story):
Arambar’s residual power paints the sky its iron hue. But here in Wandering Stones, that residue is stronger. This is where Arambar died, struck down by his own steed, a dragon. This is where the primordial’s spirit rests uneasy.
From Sword of the Gods: Spinner of Lies (novel):
[...]this relic limb of the dead primordial Arambar, slain in the ancient wars before Abeir-Toril became two.
What's the point here?
There are dragons. As the primordials' steeds. Before the Original Sundering (as Arambar died "n the ancient wars before Abeir-Toril became two", "struck down by his own steed, a dragon.")
That means, dragons existed before the Tearfall... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 10 Aug 2017 12:08:10 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 16:18:43
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I actually don't find the myths regarding Ahriman and Jazirian contradictory. They created 'The Great Wheel', which is the basis for the Over-Cosmology (Planescape, and GH). This may have been done immediately after the destruction of 'The First World' (which would have been the culmination of the Dawn War), or it may have been done long before those events (I personally think it makes more sense after, because I have some weird theories from way back regarding Ahriman & Jazirian, and Tiamat & Bahamut). Then the Crystal Spheres were formed, and from there we can get individual Creation Myths for each world. I have it where Annam created the original (Celestial) Giants, and when most of those were destroyed during the Dawn War, he begat a new race of giants on Toril (Abeir-Toril?) Then he was 'banished' from Toril, which gives him many thousands of years to procreate in other spheres, creating other giants. Basically, beings at his level of power create whatever they want*, so there is no reason why he couldn't keep recreating the giants on each world, no matter who was involved (and others may have also created giants, and all these giants would be slightly different from their counterparts on other worlds, being a new 'branch', if you will).
I suppose we could just accept the 'unified creation myths' of 4e, but I hate squashing all that older lore. The only way to reconcile that would be to say 4e was 'factual', and the others are "just myths". If we have lots and lots of gods involved in the creation of the worlds (and the original world), then each race/culture's myths may not be entirely inaccurate - they could just be skewed by their gods religion, or even their own 'racial memories' of events could just be part of the story (in other words, if their ancient ancestors know such-and-such a god saved them, and created their home, then that's all they are going to know - they won't know about all the other stuff going on, all over the multiverse). Once other worlds/cultures become involved, then the myths have to adapt to include them, but two groups meeting like that would each say that their version takes priority (the Romans were famous for that - they just folded everyone else's gods and pantheons into their own).
And how many 'people' (even gods) were actually around back then to witness those events? After thousands of years, just about everything could be wrong in the telling.
Also, their are at least two 'tiers' of everything in D&D - a(n original) 'Celestial' version (some of which still exist in the Outer Planes), and a 'terrestrial' (stretching the meaning of that word to include the entirety of the Prime Material) version. WE have Greater Titans, Cyclops, and Fomorians in canon D&D lore. Bigger, badder, and usually meaner versions of each. We also KNOW there are two tiers of dragons - the Asian 'Loung' type are actually gods (ranging from demi- to greater). And there is even a 'lesser' variant of the dragons - the unintelligent Linnorms (just 'beasts', for the most part). In fact, I've even speculated that our normal D&D dragons are actually a hybrid of Celestial (Luong) Dragons and Linnorms (maybe the blood of Asgorath/whatever changed them? Made them 'evolve'?)
Anyhow, the Two-tier nature of everything in D&D means that we can have one set of Over-Cosmology creation for just about everything (that First World/Plane, and all the 'greater' versions of everything in it), and then the lesser 'terrestrial' versions would be created on each world (or in some case, like the surviving members of the Creator Races, would begin to evolve in different directions over time). This means just about EVERYTHING in the prime Material Plane is just a pale reflection of the greatness that once was. This helps solve a LOT of continuity problems (like a Titan appearing in the GHotR before Annam even creates them). I tend to differentiate between the two when I am discussing stuff by capitalizing the 'celestial' (greater) version of something (I doubt anyone has ever noticed that). Thus, we have Giants, and we have giants, and we have Dragons, and we have dragons, etc. You can even do this with the demihumans (Eladrin would be 'Elves', and the Sylvan/Green kind would just be 'elves', etc).
*I wish I wasn't pressed for time - another strange thought just popped into my head. What if, along with 'Death' having come into the world, the concept of 'Birth' had to immediately follow? One doesn't work without the other. Thus, before the Dawn War, all these powerful beings just 'snapped their finger' and *POOF* they created other powerful beings. But after the Dawn War, they had to actually procreate (although the physicality would still be optional). In other words, they would need the help of at least one other divine being to create a new being. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Aug 2017 20:46:26 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 19:44:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Where did the information on the Dawn War come from? It came from the Dragonborn. The whole notion of Primordials also came from the Dragonborn. The Dragonborn came from Abeir.
It came from the sarrukh from Okoth, and it was later corroborated by similar accounts of the dragonborn of Returned Abeir. The FRCG, (p.41) says this:
The most common account of Toril's prehistory traces its roots back to ancient Netheril. This popular human myth recounts the creation of the universe by Lord Ao and the epic struggle between the gods of light and darkness that followed. Only recently have other, more ancient legends come to light, recounted by the sarrukh of Okoth and echoed by the dragonborn of Returned Abeir. By combining common threads from both accounts, backed by diligent factfinding missions, scholars and historians of today* have gained a clearer understanding of the creation of the universe.
And the fact that the stories of the primordials came from the sarrukh (and were just later "echoed" by accounts from the dragonborn) is the whole turning point of this. The sarrukh are immortal planeswalker beings (many of them are in fact, the same sarrukh that ruled Okoth in the Days of Thunder) that have been traveling in the Outer Planes for millennia. So, while the info from dragonborn can be regarded as myth** (something that can be said also for the Netherese myths), the info from the sarrukh must be taken as a reliable source, even if biased.
My feeling when I read that, at least when it came to Sarrukh, was not that they were collaborating everything, but rather that the Sarrukh had fragmentary accounts of the time period which sages then connected to the Dragonborn accounts.
The canon is explicitly referring to this passage from the Grand History of the Realms, pg. 8:
quote:
c. -31000 DR
An unimaginable catastrophe strikes Abeir-Toril. Whole continents vanish in earthquakes, fires, and windstorms, and the seas are rearranged. Ancient sarrukh accounts remark on the "changing of the stars," but no one now knows what this might mean.
Most scholars now speculate that at about this date a comet or ice moon fell from the sky, devastating much of Abeir-Toril, and refer to this event as the Tearfall. The four Inner Seas merge together to form the body of water known today as the Sea of Fallen Stars. Tens of thousands of dragon eggs soon hatch across Toril. The dramatic climate change that followed quickly brought an end to the batrachi civilization.
For perspective, the Ba'etith (the Sarrukh group connected to Okoth) did not even create the Golden Skins of the World Serpent (Nether Scrolls) more than 1,000 years after the Tearfall. The Okoth Empire collapsed around 3,100 BEFORE the Tearfall, and most of the Sarrukh there moved to the planes. It is only after this even that the Ba'etith are created to begin studying the magic of the 'lesser' races--which would become around 4,100 years later the Golden Skins of the World Serpent (Nether Scrolls).
By the time hear about Okoth again in the Grand History of the Realms, it is during the Time of Troubles when the Sarrukh there cut a deal with the "divine minions" of Set to bind Sseth into a magical slumber in exchange for magic and aid against their battle against the khaasta. The 4E FRCG Sarrukh there turned to the worship of Set soon after, which caused a war between the serpent folk, especially those in the Chultan region (mostly Yuan-ti). This led to a secret war between the Yuan-ti and the remaining Sarrukh of Okoth. The Yuan-ti won that war after the Spellplague, defeated "the heretics" and Sseth awoke once more and Set faded from the Realms.
The 4E FRCG goes on to say that there are some surviving Sarrukh of Okoth who are hiding away in secret, binding their time, and attempting to recapture what is lost. Virtually everyone in Toril believes that they are dead and that the Sarrukh are deliberately remaining hidden and secret.
So, that is the state of things by the 4th Edition FR.
Therefore, it is unlikely that sages had fire side chats with Sarrukh of that region to confirm anything. More likely ancient writings looted by the Yaun-ti war against Okoth found their way into the hands of sages. These were likely fragmentary writings.
I speculate that these are the things that those writings probably confirm:
- They confirm the Tearfall happened. (Basically, the GHotR entry that I quoted.)
- They conform a dark and cold period of history, prior to the Days of Thunder.
- They probably also confirm the existence of primordials.
Outside of those things, it is difficult for me to imagine that Realms sages got much more. What we would have after that are sages attempting to piece things together.
The Netherese:
- They have the well established Netherese mythology of the Sisters of Light and Darkness, so that gets some play in their recounting of events.
- Said Netherese mythology got an update to include Lord Ao after the Time of Troubles (prior to this point no mortal knew Ao existed).
The Dragonborn:
- From the Dragonborn they got most of their information regarding the primordials.
- They also got most of their information regarding the Dawn War.
The Chultans:
- They got the mythology regarding Ubtao and Dendar the Night Serpent, but that mythology was reinterpreted from the original.
The Dragons:
- They are clearly using the Red Dragon creation mythology. This is where the talk of Asgorth the World Shaper comes from, but in that myth Asgorth is clearly Tiamat. The 2E Draconomicon even breaks down and explains the myth.
When we look at 4E core lore, I think it is important to remember that they stole a lot of stuff from the Realms that may not be backward compatible. So although 4E FR lore (in its historical recounting) claims that Asgorth the World Shaper was a primordial (which may or may not be true) that does not mean the the FR Asgroth is the same as the 4E core Asgroth. In the same way that the 4E core Bane is not the same Bane as in 4E FR. 4E Core lore is useful in so far as it could potentially help shed some light on some specific FR things, but the core lore should not be viewed as definitive FR canon--all that core stuff is subject to rectons and being overwritten in the future, whereas FR lore is -SUPPOSED- to stay consistent.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
In fact, there are native dragonborn from Toril since the Time of Dragons. (Yeah, I wonder why they didn't use those instead of the Abeiran ones...).
I actually raised this very issue when 4th Edition Dragonborn were introduced to the Realms. Toril already obviously had Dragonborn (the Dragonborn of Bahamut), but Abeir Dragonborn were different. The response I got from one of the designers back on the old WotC forums was that, hey look basically, we were trying to connect the FR setting to our core lore. The Dragonborn of Bahamut are not the same as the Dragonborn of Abeir, even though they have the same name. The Dragonborn of Bahamut are not born--they are created--through a magical ritual. Someone, like a human--as an example--is transformed into a Dragonborn through a magical ritual connected to Bahamut.
So, yeah... two completely different types of Dragonborn with no relationship to one another.
Also, the Time of Dragons happens AFTER the twinning of the worlds. Thus, if the Dragonborn of Bahamut were the source of the Dragonborn they would not have appeared on Abeir, they would have only appeared on Toril.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
My question is, do the Netherese myths have a source that can help us to confirm them as "closer to truth" as well? And the gods cannot be used for this (sadly, because that stuff of Amaunathor saying that he was Lathander in a novel, and Chris Perkins retconning that saying that Lathander and Amaunathor aren't the same being, so Amaunathor became a liar...)
Nope. I am unsure what the Netherese myths stand upon as their authenticity at all. There does not seem to be anything backing them up other than popular belief. Prior to the Dawn Cataclysm--when all the human pantheons of Faerun began merging together to create the Faerunian pantheon--it is likely that many different human groups had their own creation myths. This is even implied to be true in the 2E Draconomicon, though common sense should tell us this as well. What happened is that these other creation myths started to fall out of popularity as the Netherese creation mythology spread.
To make matters worse, the original myth of the Sisters of Light and Darkness had Shar and Selune as the beings of creation. It is only after the Time of Troubles that people inserted Lord Ao into the creation mythology--because the people did not know Lord Ao existed prior to that time. So the myth had to undergo revision.
The most likely truth is that Ao created Abeir-Toril and its Crystal Sphere. Whatever came after that we can only speculate, but odds are fairly good it was not Selune and Shar.
Faiths and Avatars, pg. 141 has the most complete retelling of the mythology. It is truncated in later editions:
quote:
This was the birth of the world and the heavens. After Lord Ao created Realmspace, there was a period of timeless nothingness, a misty realm his was the birth of the world and the heavens. After Lord Ao created of shadows before light and dark were separate entities. Within this dim chaos stalked 13 lords of shadow, the shadevari--whether they came from elsewhere or are children of the shadow itself, none can say.
Eventually this primordial essence coalesced into twin beautiful goddesses who were yin and yang to each other; they were so close they thought of themselves as one being. The Two-Faced Goddess created the heavenly bodies of the crystal sphere and together infused them with life to form the Earthmother, Chauntea. (Although Chauntea has since contacted her essence to encompass only Abeir-Toril, in the beginning she embodied all matter in Realmspace.) This new universe was lit by the face of the silver-haired goddess, who called herself Selune, and darkened by the welcoming tresses of the raven-haired goddess, Shar, but no heat or fire existed within it.
Chauntea begged for warmth so that she could nurture life and living creatures upon the planets that were her body and limbs, and the two Sisters-Who-Were-One became divided, as for the first time they were of two minds. Silvery Selune contested with her dark sister over whether or not to bring further life to the worlds. During this great conflagration, the gods of war, disease, murder, and death, among others, were created from residues of the deific battle. At one point during the battle, Selune seized the advantage and reached across time and space to a land of eternal fire. Fighting the pain of the blaze, which burned her sorely, she broke off a fragment of that ever-living flame and ignited one of the heavenly bodies so that it burned in the sky and warmed Chauntea.
Incensed, Shar redoubled her attack on her injured twin and began to snuff out all light and heat throughout the crystal sphere. Again Selune gave of herself and tore the divine essence of magic from her body, flinging it desperately at her sister in defense of life in the sphere and nearly killing herself of the spiritual injury it caused her. A just-born being of raw magic tore through Shar, bonding to some of her divine magical energy and ripping it free of her, and reforming behind her as the goddess of magic, known now as Mystra, but then as Mystryl. Though Mystryl was composed of both light and dark magic, she favored her first mother Selune initially, allowing the silver goddess to win an uneasy truce with her more powerful dark twin. Consumed by bitterness at her defeat, Shar vowed eternal revenge.
The twin goddesses contested for eons as life struggled into existence on Toril and the other planets under Chauntea's watchful gaze. Shar remained powerful, but bitterly alone, while Selune waxed and waned in power, often drawing strength from her allied daughters and sons and like-minded immigrant deities. Over time, Shar grew strong again, aided by the shadevari who preferred night to blinding light and who stalked the Realms seeking to meld light and dark into shadowy chaos once again. Shar's plot to reform the world after her desires was undone when Azuth, the High One, formally the greatest of all mortal spellcasters and now consort to Mystra (incarnate successor to Mystryl), found a way to imprison the shadevari in a pocket-sized crystal sphere located beyond the edges of the world by creating the illusion of a realm of shadows. The Lords of Shadow were drawn to investigate, and before they discovered the trick, Azuth imprisoned the shadevari with the Shadowstar, a key of shadows forged by Gond. The High Lord then hurled the key into the endless reaches of the cosmos allowing life to flourish on in Chauntea's loving hands.
You can easily see how it was adapted and modified over time.
- The stuff about Ao was added after the Time of Troubles.
- The stuff about Chauntea required clarification because the Netherese did not worship a deity named Chauntea. They worshiped a somewhat similar deity named Jannath.
- The stuff about the Shadevari is dubious. It is possible that the concept of the Shadevari were adopted from an earlier source, but more likely this was stuff added later to the myth by the cults of Azuth and Mystra. I say this because Azuth is an ascended mortal, and was completely unknown to the Netherese. As a result, he would not be mentioned in the original Netherese mythology.
- The stuff about Mystra obviously went some adoption after the fall of Netheril.
So, basically, what we know from the original Netherese mythology:
- There was originally a two-faced goddess of light and darkness.
- Said goddess divided against herself, becoming Selune and Shar.
That is pretty much it. This is one of the reasons that I speculate that the Netherese once worshiped a single two-faced goddess, and over time that cult faced a schism that eventually led to the formation of the cults of Shar and Selune. That would imply an even earlier creation mythology, one that did not have Shar and Selune doing battle with one another, but rather a creator deity of Light and Darkness who created the cosmos. This deity likely led the Netherese pantheon at some point before the schism. If you look at other pantheons (non-Faerunian) they are normally led by a deity of some sort. The Mulhorandi Pantheon has Horus-Re, the Elven Pantheon has Corellon, the Dwarven Pantheon has Moridin, etc. It is likely that the Netherese Pantheon was the same at some point but appears much more likely the Faerunian pantheon in 2E Empires of Netheril. Deities such as Jergal are clearly interloper deities from another pantheon, as he is not even portrayed as a human, but rather some type of insectoid creature. (There has always been some popular speculation that he was once a Spellweaver.)
What I want to show here, though, is how Torillians have adopted and changed these mythologies over time. These are informative myths, their attempt to explain why the world is the way that it is, and should not be taken to be literal versions of the truth. They are not an accurate accounting of historical facts, and the sages of the Realms likely know that completely.
Therefore, we should take the 4E mythology--especially since it explicitly declares that it is a mythology--in the same light.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
**But in canon, we know that the dragonborn myths are closer to actual truth, because the escaped slaves from Skelkor (some of them founders of Tymanchebar, and thus current Tymanther) can commune with beings such as the spirit of Arambar and other spirits from the past and future, so their myths have a reliable source, albeit if a little bit biased, perhaps.
I am not 100% sure how that works, but I would say that it probably is not any more accurate than other forms of divination and it is probably open to some type of personal interpretation.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
1. Sarrukh myths had recollections of the Dawn War (as Ouroboros the World Serpent was involved in the conflict—so, mind, this happened before the World Serpent became divided into many gods).
I do not think that is the case. I think this is the interpretation of sages. The way that I see the 4th Edition mythology is that sages (in setting) are taking multiple mythologies and are trying to fit them together with what they know. I do not think the Sarrukh mythologies said anything about the Dawn War, as none of this information came to light until later editions. (Obviously, we know that this was 4E designers shoe-horning stuff into the setting, but from an in-world perspective this was unknown.) The Sarrukh of Okoth are also, according to 4th Edition, purposefully laying low and secret. So it is not like they are sharing their lore. The point of reference in the introduction to the creation mythology is more likely material taken from Okoth during the Secret War of the Serpents post-Spellplague.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
2. Dragonborn myths from Abeir echoed those of the sarrukh (as incredible as it can sound, it seems dragonborn from Abeir knew of Io, Bahamut and Tiamat—even if there weren't gods in Abeir—, and they also, obviously knew about the primordials).
When it comes to the Dragonborn mythologies, here is what we know from the Sword Coast Adventure's Guide, pg. 112-113:
quote:
As with all stories of the ancient past, tales of the origins of the dragon born are hazy and sometimes contradictory. Each reveals something about the dragonborn in its telling, however.
One story relates that the dragonborn were shaped by the ancient dragon-god Io at the same time that Io created the dragons. In the beginning of days, Io fused brilliant astral spirits with the unchecked fury of the elements. The greater spirits became dragons- creatures so powerful, proud, and willful that they were lords of the newborn world. The lesser spirits became the dragonborn. Although smaller in stature, they were no less draconic in nature. This tale stresses the close kinship between dragons and dragonborn, while reinforcing the natural order of things- dragons r ule and dragonborn serve, at least according to the dragonborn's former masters.
Another legend asserts that Io created the dragons at the birth of the world, but dragonborn did not yet exist. Then, during the Dawn War, Io was killed by the primordial known as Erek-Hus, the King of Terror. With a rough-hewn axe of adamantine, the behemoth split Io from head to tail, cleaving the dragon-god into two equal halves, which rose up as new gods--Bahamut and Tiamat. Droplets of Io's blood, spattered across the world, became the first dragonborn. For some who believe it, this origin story supports the view that dragonborn are clearly inferior to the dragons that were made by Io's loving hand, while others emphasize that the dragonborn arose from Io's own blood- just as two draconic deities arose from the god's severed body. So are the dragonborn not, therefore, like the gods themselves?
A third origin story posits that dragonborn were the firstborn of the world, created by Io before the existence of other humanoid races, which were pale imitations of dragonborn perfection. Io shaped the dragonborn and fired them with his breath, then spilled his own blood to give them life. The first dragonborn served Io as companions and allies, filling his astral court and singing his praises. The dragons he made only later, at the start of the Dawn War, to serve as engines of destruction. This view of dragonborn history is shared by those who believe that dragonborn are superior to other races and thus should be the masters of dragons and not the other way around.
Despite their differing conclusions, a common theme binds all these legends together: the dragonborn owe their existence to Io, the great dragon-god who created all of dragonkind. The dragonborn, all legends agree, are not the creations of Bahamut or Tiamat--and so they have no predetermined side in the conflict between those gods. Every individual dragonborn, regardless of one's particular draconic ancestry, makes a personal choice in matters of ethics and morality.
As the lore states the dragonborn have different and conflicting mythologies. Some of this stuff raises interesting questions about the origins of Bahamut and Tiamat, but it does not really tell us anything more than what is written above.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
3. Yet, the sarrukh accounts (and potentially, dragonborn accounts as well) doesn't contradict the Netherese myths (as Selûne, Shar and other gods that "born in the conflict"—I guess, the rest of the Netherese pantheon—were involved in the Dawn War).
As I pointed out previously the Netherese mythology is a hot mess all on its own, before it even gets combined with these other mythologies. There is literally no proof of the existence of Shar and Selune prior to Netheril, outside of popular mortal belief--at least no proof that I have seen.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
4. Chultan myths are also somewhat involved in all of this (as it reveal the origin of the enmity between Ubtao and Dendar).
Yes, I have no idea why exactly the writer of the 4E mythology decided to include not only the Chultan mythology as well as the Red Dragon mythology... I guess in an effort to be as complete as possible. However, it only adds further confusion. Especially as the 4E mythology takes great liberalities with these mythologies--basically rewriting them in dramatic ways.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Now, there is a question of mine: I see that you prioritize the sarrukh myths over the others. Is there a reason for this?
...
Is there a reason to believe the sarrukh myth is the true one? Or a least, the "closer to truth"? Or is a preference of yours?
I am not really prioritizing the sarrukh myths. I think what the in-world sages have are scraps and fragments of ancient writings of the sarrukh. These are likely actual accounts of events that took place during the Days of Thunder. For example, the sarrukh were likely talking about some type of ice age prior to the Days of Thunder, which the sages attribute to Dendar the Night Serpent swallowing the sun. I do not think the sarrukh attribute the ice age to the Night Serpent, I think that is the interpretation of the sages who are trying to make these accounts fit with the Chultan mythology (which is one of the reasons they had to re-write it).
Then there is the whole issue of the Tearfall. How much "new" information sages have outside of what is written in the Grand History of the Realms entry is debatable. For example, did they actually mention primordials there, or is this the interpretation of the sages? Alternatively, did Ao really twin the worlds at this point, or was this the interpretation of the sages? If the worlds were twinned at this point, then is it possible that sarrukh are on Abeir? If sarrukh are not on Abeir, does this mean that the worlds were twinned at an earlier point?
There are lots of unanswered questions. However, we should not assume that sages of the Realms have all the answers just because they have some scraps and fragments from an ancient empire.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Can't Shar, Selûne and Shekinester exist as completely independent beings, unrelated one to the other?
Yes, all of that is completely possible. The Shar, Selune, and Shekinester is just my speculation. The reason I went down that path at all was because I was trying to come up with an explanation for the Weave. Mystra has the same issues as Shar and Selune, in that there is no evidence for her existence prior to the time of Netheril. However, it seems logical to believe that the Weave pre-dates Netheril, and we know the Weave is intimately tied to Mystra. This forces us to try and come up with a rational explanation for how this is possible--that a deity so integral to the functioning of magic in the world does not come into existence until rather recently from a historical perspective. One of the easiest ways to do that is to connect Mystra (and because in Netherese mythology Mystra comes from Selune and Shar--this applies to them as well) to an earlier deity. The oldest confirmed deity that we have for the setting is the World Serpent, which we know fragmented into other deities, and there were ruins of a once great Naga kingdom right next to where Netheril arose. So, that is how I drew those connections.
However, it is entirely possible that there is no connection at all, but that just puts us back to square one with the problem.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
**There is this novel that says that Shar is from other sphere, though. But this contradicts her origin story as the other coin of Selûne. And we don't know her name in that sphere, nonetheless.
That is entirely possible. Like I said, there huge holes in the Netherse mythology--holes large enough to drive a double-decker bus through.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
There are dragons. As the primordials' steeds. Before the Original Sundering (as Arambar died "n the ancient wars before Abeir-Toril became two", "struck down by his own steed, a dragon.")
That means, dragons existed before the Tearfall...
All of that might be possible. Especially if we go back to my theory that the Elves first arrived on the One World--Abeir-Toril, cast the Sundering Ritual, which in turn rewrote history, and that is what led Ao to twin Abeir and Toril.
It is one of the easier ways to explain these problems away. Although some of these things, since they come from novels and stuff, can simply be character interpretations and not necessarily taken as 100% fact. For example, the last part you quote from the Wandering Stones short story could simply be a memory of an earlier period on Abeir.
Like the Tearfall, I think the War of Talon and Fang is likely a historical fact--an actual event. It's just a question of when and where it happened. Obviously, it had to have happened--as you point out--before the Tearfall. Alternatively, it could have happened after the Tearfall on Abeir.
However, there needs to be an argument made one way or another, and an explanation for why that argument is the correct one. Personally, I think the easiest argument to make is that the twinning of the worlds happening around the Tearfall are simply the conjecture of Realms sages--perhaps not actual historical fact. We know that the Elven Sundering ritual altered history, so it is easy to fix a lot of these problems by having the Elves arrive on the One World, do their thing, alter history, cause the world to be twinned as a result, and the War of Talon and Fang could have been an event that happened on the One World, before the twinning. Torillian primordials are imprisoned or asleep, Aberian Primoridals are shunted over from the 'One World' with history being altered only slightly (to remove Elven influence and likely to alter the way magic worked there). Otherwise, Abeir looks as the One World looked prior to the arrival of the Elves.
It is the easiest solution to a complicated problem, at least in my opinion. I mean, you gotta jump at something that allows you to rewrite history, right? Otherwise, how do you explain the contradictions? |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 20:56:59
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I'm sure most are already aware of this, but just for reference:
(All are from F&P)
quote:
The deities of Toril can be divided into two groups: native deities and immigrant (or interloper deities)....Native deities are those who arose during or after the founding of this world and are only worshiped here. Immigrant deities are those who were worshiped on other worlds and on other planes before their followers entered Toril via portals and other means. Once a deity is accepted into the pantheons of Toril, there is no difference between the two groups, sicne each immigrant deity has a local aspect, independent of other world-based aspects he or she might possess. For example, although Lebelas Enoreth and Clangeddin Silverbeard battle each other during the Time of Troubles on the isle of Ruathym, any enmity stemming from that clash does not extend to other worlds. Likewise, Lolth in some other world differs from Lolth in Faerun. If some other world adventurers sought out Lolth in her lair and killed her, her local aspect would be unaffected.
Be that as it may, most native deities are venerated primarily by races that arose from the primordial chaos: dragons, humans, lizardfolk, nagas, yuan-ti, locathah, dopplegangers, and the various fey races, such as sprites. Likewise, primarily immigrant races, such as the elves who arrived in Faerun countless millennia ago, venerate they brought with them, in this case the Seldarine
. (pg 4).
I realize this quote would have been more relevant earlier, but I wanted to include it. This actually reminds me of a conversation we had in another thread a while back (and further supports that deities can be "born" in a number of ways). The deities may have several aspects across the planes, but each aspect is at the same time its own independent entity, with its own history and desires (which are likely similar, but not exact, to the desires of its other aspects). So, they're aspects in that they all stem from the same "sentience" (in which there might be several. For example, the various "Lolths" come from the same "Lolth sentience", and so on), but have grown into their own being, thus allowing them to exist solely in one plane while at the same existing in multiple planes. So, they may all be part of the same "sentience", but are also individuals, and as history unfolds in each world and plane, so the various deities help shape it, along with their followers. Like Corellon creating the sun elves and then migrating to Toril, for example.
quote:
According to the oldest myths, Lord Ao created the universe that now holds the world of Toril. Through this act of creation, protoplasmic raw existence took the form of twin deities, one representing light and one representing darkness. These deities, Selune and Shar, birthed the heavenly bodies, in the process creating Chauntea as the animating spirit of the world of Toril. Chauntea begged the sisters to grant her world warmth and light that life might flourish upon it. Selune relented, igniting the sun with elemental fire. Shar, who treasured the primordial darkness and resented Chauntea's concept of life, lashed out at her sister, initiating a conflict that has endured to the present day.
. (pg 56)
quote:
After Lord Ao created the universe, the swirling chaos coalesced to form twin deities: Selune, a being of light and creation, and Shar, a power of darkness and destruction. Shar's existence, paradoxically, is tied to the shrouded nothingness that existed prior to Ao's act of creation. Shar reflects the primal dark, the flawless void erased at the beginning of time by a distant, unconcerned overdeity
. (pg 58)
I mostly cited because there had been discussions about Ao (and Shar and Selune), and these passages help to further suggest that Ao is overgod of the universe containing Toril, but that is just one "sphere" in the multiverse, and that something even greater than Ao is in charge--actually, the "distant, unconcerned overdeity" is quite possibly different than Ao's "Master". |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 21:18:41
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| On the Shar thing: I've theorized that she has gone multispheric, and has possibly absorbed/merged with some other deity of shadowy destruction. I really don't see any other way to reconcile her being native to the Realms and actively involved in destroying worlds in other spheres. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 22:06:26
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Some points, in no particualr order:
The Sarrukh myths ARE probably closer to the truth, for no other reason that they are closer to 'the source'. ALL the Creator Races would have myths that are likely close to the truth (but filtered through their own perspectives), but we are the most familiar with the Sarrukh, and their legends. There really aren't any Batrachi or Aeree legends lying around where human mages can read them (not that there are too many Sarrukh ones, either, but we have to remember the Terraseer was feeding the Netherese 'Sarrukh' intel for years).
The shadevari were in the original myth about the War of Light & Darkness, from 2e's Faiths & Avatars, and was penned by Eric Boid. He included that bit about the shadevari for 'completionist' reasons, because one appeared in the novel Crypt of the Shadowking. Weirdly, it seems very much like a Slaad (or some other frog-like powerful entity... but certainly NO god). According to the novel (NOT the sourcebook), those creatures "existed in the primal darkness before creation", so Eric wrote to what he knew - the FR material, and included them there. In hindsight, we can suppose that these beings existed ALL OVER THE PLACE (maybe Realmspace had only 13). That if my theories about the original Prime Material Plane being Sundered are correct (and everything - including the NAME - points to that), the Creator Races (Creatori) all lived on that original world, and when the Plane was shattered, they wound up on a multitude of worlds, in different Crystal Spheres.
So we have to reinterpret earlier lore with the 4e/5e lore in mind, and say that the Creatori were NOT really 'FR', but rather something more universal. What would happen if we were to go back in time and grab bunches of primates, and 'seed' planets with them? Most would probably die-out, but the ones that survived would adapt and become new races in their own right. They'd be extremely similar to 'modern man' (most likely, having started form the same DNA-point), but they would have gone in separate directions of their own. Thats what I think happened to the Creatori - we have 'liazardmen' on most D&D worlds, but they are different from world to world. I think Mystara even has a 1/2 dozen different varieties. None of them look like the original Sarrukh - too many years have gone by (along with death and maybe 'Birth', i think also evolution became a new factor, because time was now relevant).
So those 'Shadevari'? I'm thinking they were just incredibly powerful Batrachi Mages/Shamen. Some Batrachi probably fled to limbo post-Sundering (and became the Slaad), but others may have found solace hiding in the 'dark spaces of the virgin spheres' (before those spheres were lit with suns). They would have made perfect allies for Shar (especially given the Batrachi's 'Lovecraftian' connections). When Eric wrote those myths, he was writing from the PoV of Realmspace alone, and we've since got tons of lore stretching the timeline back before The Creation (of Realmspace).
Ao's a bit of a problem. He's always been a bit of a problem. Way back when we had him pegged as 'The Overgod of Realmspace', but unfortunately, he's become so much more (they tried to kill him off, and instead he just became more powerful LOL). He's obviously some much more ancient being, maybe something akin to marvel Comics' Living tribunal. In other words, 'when gods disagree', its his job to step-in and fix the mess... EVERYWHERE. Makes you wonder why he didn't repair Krynn's cataclysm, or a dozen other WSE's throughout D&D. There must be 'rules' we'll never know about.
As for Abeir-Toril's importance - I think the material (matter) that composes Realmspace (and most especially those two worlds) was very important in the First World. Some sort of 'hub' for all the activity the Gods were busy with (think of it like a massive construction project - the biggest in history - with millions of workers involved at all different power-levels). Abeir-Toril was probably the region where the 'foremen' met with the 'architects' and 'engineers' (the lower-ranking Gods met with much higher ranking ones, and discussed 'plans'). I think part of that was a network of energy/matter transfer points - 'pools'. These are well known in PS material, but we have many of them in FR lore. Some are called "Pools of...", others are called Moonwells (I think the 'Pools' are keyed ones, whereas the Moonwells are generic, and need to be keyed). These lead to places of energy and matter, and allow a lot of the lesser beings to move about and bring materials where they were needed, quickly and efficiently. I think the primary reason why Toril is so important is because it STILL has a working system of these things (some worlds have a few, but Toril's covered with them, especially the Moonshaes - that must have been a 'supply depot' of sorts). Scholars sometimes refer to part of this network as The Road of Starlight and Shadows. Looking at the name, now I am thinking that was Selûne (Moonwells?) and Shar's job - they oversaw that in the First World. When the world got shattered they wound up in Realmspace, where most of those wound up. n fact, the goddess's 'duality' may stem from the idea that portals have TWO ends - a starting-point, and a destination. Maybe Shar represents the 'unknown' of the destination (and the broken system may have warped her mind a bit).
Think of all those gods, great and small, waking-up 'the morning after' (The Dawn War). It would be like humans in a post-apocalyptic world. They have to start-over and rebuild, with whatever they had laying around. Selûne may have wanted to do that, but Shar was more nihilistic. This is probably when actual 'pantheons' began to form, with different beings (and maybe even different aspects of the same beings) getting trapped in all these Crystal Spheres, and forming 'survival groups'. Some may have tried to make it all nice again, like Rick's group from Walking Dead, and others may have gone off the deep end and tried a 'Mad Max' approach. Some pantheons may have even become 'predatory', although I see more 'loner Gods' doing that, invading the spheres of others and raiding their stuff. Something like Zehir, moving from sphere to sphere, trying to absorb as much power as he can (maybe Zehir is like Negan?)
And so many new gods have been created since those early days - ones that don't understand the universe is broken. They don't know they are living in a post-apocalyptic, 'survival universe'. Like how they have the "great game' in GoT, except this is on a cosmic level. In the beginning, the gods all worked together, but now its 'every man for himself' (sort of - they still have group-affiliations). And while you will have some of those 'ancient, Elder Gods' trying to bring back the First World (repair the universe), now you'll have many trying to prevent just that. they've grown to fond of their personal power now to concede it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Aug 2017 22:16:17 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 22:37:01
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Also, imagining Abeir-Toril as this 'hub', maybe even something akin to the 'Townhall of the Gods' back in the First World. That would tell us why SO MANY primordials were around in Realmspace (imprisoned on Abeir, AND on Toril), and also why so many Gods have an interest in the place (while other spheres get mostly ignored, or only have a couple of gods).
If that was the capital of Godworld, that would be where the rebellion would have broken out, where 'criminals' were tried and sentenced, etc, etc. It also explains why Abeir-Toril is described as 'The Center of the Universe' (although I personally think the center is in the middle of the Radiant Triangle, between Realmspace, Greyspace, and Krynnspace - that 'cosmic construct' has to have some meaning, and Oerth is also extremely important in D&D lore/myth).
As for Krynn, that could just be the place where the 'cosmic struggle' between Bahamut and Tiamat first occurred, and it continues to play-out 'till this day. In other words, we can assume part of its 'cosmic importance' is because some major battles were fought there, and maybe some major Gods died there, like Papa Dragon (whatever his name is now). So lets say the battle between Erek-Hus and Asgorath happened on Krynn (or rather, happened on the material that is now Krynn). We know the stuff with Misha and the Wind Dukes happened on Oerth.
That makes the three important - 'The Radiant Triangle'.
"Spelljamming Legend has it that if you traveled to the center of the Radiant Triangle, you would find a massive beating heart, bigger than any Crystal Sphere. But that's just folklore... or so they say..." |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Aug 2017 22:37:49 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 22:37:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
When we look at 4E core lore, I think it is important to remember that they stole a lot of stuff from the Realms that may not be backward compatible. So although 4E FR lore (in its historical recounting) claims that Asgorth the World Shaper was a primordial (which may or may not be true) that does not mean the the FR Asgroth is the same as the 4E core Asgroth. In the same way that the 4E core Bane is not the same Bane as in 4E FR. 4E Core lore is useful in so far as it could potentially help shed some light on some specific FR things, but the core lore should not be viewed as definitive FR canon--all that core stuff is subject to rectons and being overwritten in the future, whereas FR lore is -SUPPOSED- to stay consistent.
But there is no Asgorath in core 4e. Dragons aren't creations of the primordials neither their steeds in core 4e. They are the creations of the dragon god Io (yeah, I know, they are one and the same, as per Ed's tweet—yeah, I know, I'm shameless, bothering Ed in twitter...), but there is no mention of a primordial named Asgorath in lore from 4e core.
There is a myth that some dragons turned to the primordials in the Dawn War and were transformed into the cataclysmic dragons, but that happens after Io's death (they deemed either Bahamut and Tiamat so selfish and weak to follow, and casted their lot with the "winning side..." Yeah, great judging skills).
So, all the lore about Asgorath and ice moons and this stuff, is from FR materials. None from 4e core here. Even in the Heroes of the Elemental Chaos' list, Asgorath is specifically stated as a divine primordial from Abeir-Toril. So, is stuff we have to deal with, because is FR canon.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Also, the Time of Dragons happens AFTER the twinning of the worlds. Thus, if the Dragonborn of Bahamut were the source of the Dragonborn they would not have appeared on Abeir, they would have only appeared on Toril.
Both Ed and Chris Perkins have said that there are natural portals to Abeir (before and after the Second Sundering), and Rich Baker said that is easier to create portals to Abeir than to the Outer Planes. So, I can see the dragons of the Time of Dragons as planeswalkers, moving from one plane to the other as freely as we move between continents. Dragons of old seem to have that kind of powerful magics (before they lost everything 'cuz elves). Remember, they even created a Weave Cannon, that not even Netheril, with all its magical prowess and Nether Scrolls, could replicate. This can also explain why Torilian and Abeiran draconic are nearly identical (see my point forward in this post).
Heck, I can even imagine a lot of dragons migrating from Toril to Abeir when the Dracorage happened, and before they lost the secrets of their ancient civilization and the remaining dragons of Toril forgot how to move between worlds (in the Brotherhood of the Griffon novels, Brimstone mentions that dragons had forgotten a lot of their stuff from the Time of Dragons, the Xorvintaal game being just one of the ancient secrets he had rediscovered since the dead of Sammaster).
So, I guess is easier to speculate that dragonborn of Bahamut and the dragonspawn of Tiamat (that exists as native fauna in Melabrauth) could have moved between worlds as well. That would explain why people from Abeir knew about Io, Bahamut and Tiamat*, in a place that was "no-gods land".
Talking with Erin in Faceborg, we came to the theory/conclusion that potentially the relationship between the dragonborn of Bahamut and those of Abeir is that dragons reverse engineered Bahamut's ritual and modified it so that the dragonborn they created could reproduce (they also weren't limited to create dragonborn from just metallic lineages). There is no point in creating a slave race that cannot replenish itself.
So, technically dragonborn of Bahamut are the prototypes of current dragonborn.
*We know that this was kind of an error for the part of the people who wrote the SCAG, they basically copy-pasted the 4e core Arkhosian myth without realizing that the core stuff about dragonborn was different from that of FR dragonborn stuff...
But we could rant and cry, or do something about it. I go for the latter. That's why I joined so eagerly to the Candlekanon project. Because we can't change the stuff WotC did wrong, but at least we can twist it to suit our needs. And also, I do like Arkhosia (I developed that ancient empire extensively for my 4e campaign), so I can include Arkhosia in Abeir's past in the CKanon. I will have to do some modifications for lore to fit in, though, but I see the possibilities.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Therefore, we should take the 4E mythology--especially since it explicitly declares that it is a mythology--in the same light.
Yeah, you're right there. I ask because, while I'm pretty knowledgeable in 4e stuff, I lack in the department of pre-4e stuff. That's why I bombard you with questions,
But while your approach is good (and I also think we have to take that approach to fix all the contradictions), we have to take into account some facts about draconic culture. And one is that draconic culture is monolithic. It changes and evolves, yes, but at a very slow rate. Their current culture is no more different from that of the Time of Dragons, beyond some forgotten stuff thanks to the dracorages or the years of bondage the dragons of Abeir suffered under their primordial masters.
Look to their language for an example. It seems that their language has changed little since dragons developed it. Its a language with almost 32000+ years of history (in the Realms, at least), and beyond one dead dialect (High Aragrakh), the language has changed almost nothing. Heck, the only difference between Abeiran draconic and Torilian draconic is the pronuntiation of some words.
So, we have to take into account that this will also apply to their myths. Those myths may have changed just a little bit from their earlier, "closer to truth" incarnations, even with 32000+ years of story.
So, while the Netherese myths evolved and integrated myths from other cultures to become complicatedly rich in traditions and almost completely different from those told when Netheril still existed, I see the draconic nearly as identical as they were told in the Time of Dragons, not only because they can talk with old primordials (who hate dragons, such as Arambar, so will be not biased... or biased against dragons), but because of the very slow evolution of the draconic culture.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
I am not 100% sure how that works, but I would say that it probably is not any more accurate than other forms of divination and it is probably open to some type of personal interpretation.
Is more like to talk with one who was actually there (Arambar), so has first hand information about the past, so the sources of the dragonborn of Laerakond are more reliable that those old tablets or murals the Avowed from Candlekeep usually study, because Arambar was a witness of that stuff. Albeit years of being "death" and his hatred for dragons may have colored Arambar's memories.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
When it comes to the Dragonborn mythologies, here is what we know from the Sword Coast Adventure's Guide, pg. 112-113 [...]
As the lore states the dragonborn have different and conflicting mythologies. Some of this stuff raises interesting questions about the origins of Bahamut and Tiamat, but it does not really tell us anything more than what is written above.
Yeah, my problem with that myth is that is copy-pasted from this book, that talks about the dragonborn of Arkhosia... the ancient empire of dragonborn in the Nentir Vale setting (so, its a book from core 4e stuff).
So, its what I've been saying all the time: they guy who wrote the SCAG knew nothing about 4e, and copy-pasted the first stuff he found about dragonborn, without realizing he was using material from a source that was not 4e FR, and in fact contradicted 4e FR lore (the fact that in Abeir there were no gods, not even dragon gods). However, it became an FR material now, since is in the SCAG, so we have to work with it, regardless if contradicts 4e FR lore or not.
Don't get me wrong, I love the SCAG. But the book does a disservice to 4e lore, sadly.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Alternatively, did Ao really twin the worlds at this point, or was this the interpretation of the sages? If the worlds were twinned at this point, then is it possible that sarrukh are on Abeir? If sarrukh are not on Abeir, does this mean that the worlds were twinned at an earlier point?
Well, while the sages of Toril and Abeir have no way to know it, we know (thanks to authors and game designers) that Ao did separated the worlds at this point. We also know that Asgorath threw the moon. That was no myth, but a fact also. Is all in the video about the Sundering someone posted in the other post (here, for reference).
Is kinda meta-knowledge, yeah, but is canon. That happened, because authors confirmed it. Its what is called a "Word of God". Is a fact we have to dealt with.
So, we have to take into account that, while the elves did changed history, their Sundering didn't caused the twinning of Abeir-Toril. In the video, they say that the elven Sundering was "similar in concept to the one that Ao used". So, Ao did sundered Abeir-Toril regardless if the elves unleashed or not their Sundering.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Torillian primordials are imprisoned or asleep, Aberian Primoridals are shunted over from the 'One World' with history being altered only slightly (to remove Elven influence and likely to alter the way magic worked there). Otherwise, Abeir looks as the One World looked prior to the arrival of the Elves.
The problem with this is that creates parallel versions of the primordials. Like, there is an Ubtao in Toril, and other in Abeir. And canon says this is not the case. Heroes of the Elemental Chaos states that primordials, unlike gods, cannot be multi-spheric (perhaps because of their nature as manifestations of physical energies, unlike gods, that are philosophical stuff and ideals). Primordial are anchored to the part of the multiverse they chose to stay. So, the "re-writting of history" have to account for that. There cannot be parallel versions of the primordials, while gods can have that stuff.
If this help, it seems that while some primordials chose to went to Abeir (it was their new playground), a minority chose to remain in Toril, either as open allies of the gods (Ubtao, Elemental Lords), because they were prisoners, and thus could not be moved without risking the multiverse to destruction (Dendar, Kezef), or just went to hide and sleep because they didn't wanted to go to Abeir but either wanted to face the wrath of the gods (Borem, Maegera).
Also, your theory has a problem on its own: it changes the whole past of Abeir-Toril. By logic, the elves cannot change the history of the world before of the creation of Evermeet, just after. So, the elven Sundering can only have rewrote the history after -31000 DR, not before.
(Elves cannot be more powerful than their gods, and their gods cannot be more powerful than Ao).
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
After Lord Ao created the universe, the swirling chaos coalesced to form twin deities: Selune, a being of light and creation, and Shar, a power of darkness and destruction. Shar's existence, paradoxically, is tied to the shrouded nothingness that existed prior to Ao's act of creation. Shar reflects the primal dark, the flawless void erased at the beginning of time by a distant, unconcerned overdeity
. (pg 58)
I mostly cited because there had been discussions about Ao (and Shar and Selune), and these passages help to further suggest that Ao is overgod of the universe containing Toril, but that is just one "sphere" in the multiverse, and that something even greater than Ao is in charge--actually, the "distant, unconcerned overdeity" is quite possibly different than Ao's "Master".
Yeah, Shar is contradicting stuff... spoiled emo... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 10 Aug 2017 23:29:53 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 22:54:46
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So Abeir and Toril are BOTH prisons?
Makes sense... since they used to be the same place. One world, one prison.
Then the elves screwed something up, and Ao had to split the world. So the Shattering of the First World had nothing to do with - and could be thousands of years separated from - the Sundering of The One World. One was the culmination of The Dawn War (and what I've been calling the 'Ymir' was really Io/Asgorath), and the other happened well after that event, after the Crytsal Spheres coalesced from the energies and matter released from the dead gods and primordials.
So what if Asgorath was split in two, into Jazirian and Ahriman, and after the two created the Great Wheel (and became the Ouroboros), they separated their spiritual forms from their physical, becoming Bahamut and Tiamat? In other words, they'd be like 'echoes' of those ancient powers. Asgorath/Io IS 'The World Serpent', so it makes perfect sense he has aspects falling from him all the time (like how it is in Serpent Kingdoms). What if... Io is 'The ONE'? 
EDIT:
And each Crystal Sphere gets its own 'echoes' of the World Serpent - Marduk, Bahamut, Behemoth, Paladine, etc., and Tiamat, Leviathan, Takhisis, Lamashtu, etc. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Aug 2017 23:03:33 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 23:18:57
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
According to the oldest myths, Lord Ao created the universe that now holds the world of Toril. Through this act of creation, protoplasmic raw existence took the form of twin deities, one representing light and one representing darkness. These deities, Selune and Shar, birthed the heavenly bodies, in the process creating Chauntea as the animating spirit of the world of Toril. Chauntea begged the sisters to grant her world warmth and light that life might flourish upon it. Selune relented, igniting the sun with elemental fire. Shar, who treasured the primordial darkness and resented Chauntea's concept of life, lashed out at her sister, initiating a conflict that has endured to the present day.
. (pg 56)
quote:
After Lord Ao created the universe, the swirling chaos coalesced to form twin deities: Selune, a being of light and creation, and Shar, a power of darkness and destruction. Shar's existence, paradoxically, is tied to the shrouded nothingness that existed prior to Ao's act of creation. Shar reflects the primal dark, the flawless void erased at the beginning of time by a distant, unconcerned overdeity
. (pg 58)
I mostly cited because there had been discussions about Ao (and Shar and Selune), and these passages help to further suggest that Ao is overgod of the universe containing Toril, but that is just one "sphere" in the multiverse, and that something even greater than Ao is in charge--actually, the "distant, unconcerned overdeity" is quite possibly different than Ao's "Master".
I do not really think it is that odd that there would be this contradiction. Prior to the Time of Troubles, the Netherese Creation Mythology would have had Selune and Shar as the beings at the beginning of creation. Ao was literally (both from a design stand point and an in-world stand point) tacked on later. So, we have mortals who believe that Selune and Shar were the beings at the beginning of creation, and then suddenly this more powerful being shows up that seems to be greater than them. It is logical from the perspective of those mortals to believe that this more powerful being created Realmspace. Of course, that would mean that Ao also set the conditions for Selune and Shar.
Things get more complicated from there. However, trying to backfill the mythology with new information is going to inherently lead to conflicts. The same thing happened after the Spellplague as well. 'Oh wow. Dragonborn. Another world that appears to be sundered from this one. Crap. Okay, how do we make all of this fit together?'
This is why I advocate for a different approach. Rather than trying to make stuff fit together, we should instead be deconstructing these mythologies to try and see what grains of truth we can tease out of them. Once we can figure out what is factual, we can then create a more coherent mythology--though this would necessitate throwing some of the contradictory stuff out. (For example, if Asgroth were to be used and connected to Io, then that means we should proclaim the 2E Draconomicon version, which clearly paints Asgroth as Tiamat, as Red Dragon propaganda--a corruption of an earlier mythology.)
Some things are going to have to be marked as false or incorrect, and those things that are should be labeled such, at least in my opinion, in accordance with established lore.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
On the Shar thing: I've theorized that she has gone multispheric, and has possibly absorbed/merged with some other deity of shadowy destruction. I really don't see any other way to reconcile her being native to the Realms and actively involved in destroying worlds in other spheres.
Yeah, what actual definitive proof do we have of her being a multispheric deity though? I know it was mentioned somewhere in a novel, but I am unfamiliar with how strongly grounded that knowledge was from the perspective of the characters.
I know some people have theorized over the years of a Shar/Tharizdun connection. However, personally, I prefer Shar as a native deity to Toril with no or few connections to other spheres. That's just a personal preference though, not one necessary grounded in canon (any longer), but I hold it mostly because I want to sustain the uniqueness of the Shar/Selune conflict. Having Shar just be some interloper deity would... well... it would cheapen the deity, at least I think so.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Some points, in no particualr order:
The Sarrukh myths ARE probably closer to the truth, for no other reason that they are closer to 'the source'. ALL the Creator Races would have myths that are likely close to the truth (but filtered through their own perspectives), but we are the most familiar with the Sarrukh, and their legends. There really aren't any Batrachi or Aeree legends lying around where human mages can read them (not that there are too many Sarrukh ones, either, but we have to remember the Terraseer was feeding the Netherese 'Sarrukh' intel for years).
Yeah, I do not even think we have a creation mythology for the Sarrukh, only some basic information about the World Serpent. We know that the World Serpent appeared to be a somewhat evil deity, demanding sacrifices and that the Sarrukh worship it exclusively. It is the only real example of a monolatry in the Realms. We know that, according to Sarrukh legend, it came to them an lifted them out of savagery. Then the World Serpent began dividing into numerous different deities.
Outside of that, we really do not know much about the World Serpent. I think pretty much everything the 4E mythology touches on is not directly related to the World Serpent, but other things--fragments of events that are said to have taken place during the twilight of their Empire. Very little has likely survived to present day, and what has is likely copies of copies of copies of the original documents--and only then in fragments, and it is these fragments that we pretty much base all of our understanding on the Days of Thunder on.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The shadevari were in the original myth about the War of Light & Darkness, from 2e's Faiths & Avatars, and was penned by Eric Boid. He included that bit about the shadevari for 'completionist' reasons, because one appeared in the novel Crypt of the Shadowking. Weirdly, it seems very much like a Slaad (or some other frog-like powerful entity... but certainly NO god). According to the novel (NOT the sourcebook), those creatures "existed in the primal darkness before creation", so Eric wrote to what he knew - the FR material, and included them there. In hindsight, we can suppose that these beings existed ALL OVER THE PLACE (maybe Realmspace had only 13). That if my theories about the original Prime Material Plane being Sundered are correct (and everything - including the NAME - points to that), the Creator Races (Creatori) all lived on that original world, and when the Plane was shattered, they wound up on a multitude of worlds, in different Crystal Spheres.
So we have to reinterpret earlier lore with the 4e/5e lore in mind, and say that the Creatori were NOT really 'FR', but rather something more universal. What would happen if we were to go back in time and grab bunches of primates, and 'seed' planets with them? Most would probably die-out, but the ones that survived would adapt and become new races in their own right. They'd be extremely similar to 'modern man' (most likely, having started form the same DNA-point), but they would have gone in separate directions of their own. Thats what I think happened to the Creatori - we have 'liazardmen' on most D&D worlds, but they are different from world to world. I think Mystara even has a 1/2 dozen different varieties. None of them look like the original Sarrukh - too many years have gone by (along with death and maybe 'Birth', i think also evolution became a new factor, because time was now relevant).
Yeah, from an in-world perspective the stuff about the Shadevari cannot possibily be true. The Shadevari, in my opinion, likely have some sort of connection to the Shadowfell. They may pre-date the creation of Realmspace as a result. At least, I think this is cleanest and easiest explanation to make this fit... they may have developed some relationship with Shar and her cultists later. Anyway, all the bits about Azuth in that myth? Not even close to being possible from a timeline perspective. (Azuth is an ascended mortal that likely did not even become a deity until after the fall of Netheril. He certainly was not a Netherese deity, and thus could not have been part of their original mythology.)
So, yeah the Shadovari stuff? From an in-world perspective, this was likely something added to the mythology by the cult of Azuth. This is the cult and deity that stands to benefit the most from being associated with a creation mythology.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ao's a bit of a problem. He's always been a bit of a problem. Way back when we had him pegged as 'The Overgod of Realmspace', but unfortunately, he's become so much more (they tried to kill him off, and instead he just became more powerful LOL). He's obviously some much more ancient being, maybe something akin to marvel Comics' Living tribunal. In other words, 'when gods disagree', its his job to step-in and fix the mess... EVERYWHERE. Makes you wonder why he didn't repair Krynn's cataclysm, or a dozen other WSE's throughout D&D. There must be 'rules' we'll never know about.
Yeah, Ao has always been a problem for the Realms. However, there seems to be no getting rid of him. Like you said, they tried to basically pretend he didn't exist in 3E, and then he is back more powerful and central than ever by 5th Edition--lol.
I see Ao in roughly the same light. He entire reason for existance is to keep the balance. Although, it is clear he is not the only over-power. Ao likely created multiple Crystal Spheres and oversees them all. Realmspace is just one of them. There are likely "millions and millions" of other over-powers like him, who also created and oversee their Crystal Spheres. All of them serve the Luminious One--an unnamed enity that is even greater than them.
It is never clear why Ao does something when he does something, or the exact limitations of his power in Realmspace (if he has any limitations at all). As an example, after the Time of Troubles he dispells the Imaskari Gods Wall, allowing the Mulhorandi manifestations to re-connect to go to their essesness in the outer planes. If Ao could just dispel the Gods Wall and he wanted this for the Mulhorandi deities, why not just do it immediately? Why wait until after the Time of Troubles?
Anyway, here is the best information we have on Ao, from the third and final novel of the Avatar Trilogy, Waterdeep:
quote:
As Ao watched Midnight and the other gods return home with their faithful, he felt a deep sense of relief. At last, his gods might start fulfilling the tasks for which they had been created.
The overlord was sitting cross-legged and alone, surrounded by a void so vast that not even his gods could comprehend it. Of all the states of being he could assume, this one was his favorite, for he was at once in time and disconnected from it, at once the center of the universe and separate from it.
Ao turned his thoughts to Toril, the young world that had consumed so much of his attention lately. Surrounded by a hundred planes of existence and populated by a variety of fabulous beings both sinister and benevolent, it was one of his favorite creations –and one that he had come close to losing, thanks to the inattentiveness of its gods.
But in two of its inhabitants – Midnight and Cyric – Ao had found the fabric of the Balance, and he had called upon them to right the world. Fortunately, they had answered his call and bound the fulcrum back together, but it had been a dangerous time for Toril. Never again would he allow his gods to threaten the Balance so severely.
Ao closed his eyes and blanked his mind. Soon, he fell within himself and entered the place before time, the time at the edge of the universe, where millions and millions of assignments like his began and ended.
A luminous presence greeted him, enveloping his energies within its own. It was both a warm and a cold entity, forgiving and harsh. “And how does your cosmos fare, Ao?” The voice was at once both gentile and admonishing.
“They have restored the Balance, Master. The Realms are once again secure.”
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for Abeir-Toril's importance - I think the material (matter) that composes Realmspace (and most especially those two worlds) was very important in the First World. ....
I think one of the easiest things for us to do is move as much of the conflict as possible to the planes themselves. The whole Dawn War stuff? Make it a conflict that primarily played out on the planes. We need a reason to explain the existance of Ao, the Luminious One, and the other Overpowers.
My feeling is that the Luminious One created the cosmos/multiverse. A war broke out between the Estelar and the Primordials. The Luminious One created the Overpowers to restore balance, and the Overpowers created the Crystal Spheres, the domains of mortals. Some of the conflict trickled onto these virgin prime worlds, but it was only an echo of the original battles.
One of the things that seem to mark both the Estelar and the Primordials as different from our current conception of deities is that they did not require mortal worshipers to sustain themselves. We know that--even before the Time of Troubles--that deities in the Realms required mortal worshipers to sustain themselves. We know, as an example, that after the fall of Jhaamdath that their deities were pretty much wiped out. Auppenser fell into a deep slumber, and appears to have only been kept alive by Mystra--he's probably dead now. Amaunator began a long gradual decline and then death after the fall of Netheril. The Dawn Cataclysm likely also spelled the end for many more deities much more rapidly as the various human pantheons began to merge. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 23:30:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So Abeir and Toril are BOTH prisons?
Makes sense... since they used to be the same place. One world, one prison.
If we take into account that the Dawn War happened way before the Sundering of Abeir-Toril, yeah. The most powerful primordials were imprisoned in planes "near" the mortal world (in the places between dimensions and that stuff), while the weakest (such as the Princes of Elemental Evil) were imprisoned in the Elemental Chaos.
So, beings such as Dendar, Kezef and Borem, among others, were literally anchored "in" Toril.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Then the elves screwed something up, and Ao had to split the world.
If we go by with they say in that video, Ao separated the worlds regardless of what the elves did or didn't. Whatever the elves screwed up, isn't related with the original Sundering.
One thing we have to take into account is that elves cannot be more powerful that Ao—they like to think that, but that is just overconfidence, not truth. They cannot force Ao to do anything.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So the Shattering of the First World had nothing to do with - and could be thousands of years separated from - the Sundering of The One World.
That's why I propose that the Shattering of the First World would be related with the destruction of the Lattice of Heaven. From Secrets of the Astral Plane (p.6)
The Astral Sea is a former battlefield still ravaged by the cosmic conflict known as the Dawn War. The deities were the original inhabitants of the astral realm when the world was newly created by the primordials and the mortal races had yet to find their final forms. Along with shaping and refining the creation of the world, the gods had grand plans for a single realm that would link all their dominions together with an all-powerful astral connection known as the Lattice of Heaven.
When the gods intervened to prevent the primordials from destroying the world and starting a new creation, the primordials responded by invading the Plane Above. Gods died, dominions crumbled, and the incomplete Lattice of Heaven was shattered into fragments. The astral world that had nearly become a fantastic interlocked mesh of divine dominions blew apart into an infinite silver sea. Much later, when the gods had eked out a narrow victory in the Dawn War, only a few of the divine dominions that survived the devastation still functioned for their deities, hinting at the glory that died forever when the primordials destroyed the Lattice.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So what if Asgorath was split in two, into Jazirian and Ahriman, and after the two created the Great Wheel (and became the Ouroboros), they separated their spiritual forms from their physical, becoming Bahamut and Tiamat? In other words, they'd be like 'echoes' of those ancient powers. Asgorath/Io IS 'The World Serpent', so it makes perfect sense he has aspects falling from him all the time (like how it is in Serpent Kingdoms). What if... Io is 'The ONE'?
Well, Monster Mythology hints at that (p.97)
Jazirian, the couatl god, also has an affinity with this central group, although couatl think of him in very subtle terms as a perfection of an archetype which exists in other, less perfect, World Serpent forms; this is a variation on the same theme which Io and Shekinester represent: that of multiplicity of being. Thus, these very ancient reptile gods have a complexity which parallels their great age and wisdom. The other deity sometimes bracketed with them is singular: Chronepsis, the Death Dragon, presider over time, fate, and eternal law. Chronepsis never speaks or communicates, and if he knows the end of all things, he isn't telling. This mute god is seen in some draconic myths as a re-enfolding which mirrors Io's perfectly balanced extension of being into the worlds. Just as Io has become all things, Chronepsis draws everything back into himself. Sometimes, fittingly, these two are seen as brothers and represented together in a very complex symbol which has at its center the image of a nine-headed dragon with a ninefold-forked tail, each head swallowing a tail. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 23:46:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
There is a plot twist to all of this, though: Asgorath is one of the primordials still active on Toril in canon (as per 2e Draconomicon, Cults of the Dragon and Heroes of the Elemental Chaos—in HotEC is where is clarified that Asgorath is a primordial worshiped like a deity, like Kossuth or the other elemental lords).
That's why I'm saying that having Selûne and Shar as the creators of dragons contradicts current canon (its more confusing, though, that Io is considered to be both, a god—as Io—and a primordial—as Asgorath*).
And as Heroes of Elemental Chaos says that it was Asgorath the one who "hurled a comet at Toril", so it seems that Asgoroth is a mispelling... and Zotha wasn't a moon. Was a comet.
Here is the pic. Is a fragment of the (not so) "complete" list of primordials depicted in 4e products.
Yeah, I don't see Asgorath/Asgoroth coming from Shar or Selune anymore. I'm now just picturing her as Garyx's girlfriend.. or maybe his mom or granny... or a cousin. Then I'm picturing Selune crying and Zotha the ice moon/comet (honestly, don't care which now) using the tears to create a gem that's now the crystal sun. Selune lights it up (which maybe inadvertently gives Garyx the ability to breathe fire??) to torture her ex-boyfriend stuck in prison right beside her..... I mean warm the earth below so that life can form...
Then when Asgorath/Asgoroth (lets call her Azzy for short) gets out because of the batrachi "ITS ON B*TCH". BTW, Shar probably taught the batrachi how to free Azzy because Zotha wasn't paying her any attention anymore (he was doing hit it and quit it, because well, Shar's depressing, and she likes to cut herself). So, Azzy just puts the smack on Zotha, he smacks into Toril, and then she frees Garyx from the gem.
Oh, and as to Azzy still being alive.... well, death is only temporary. She had to go sleep it off. I mean, it takes a lot out of even a dragon primordial to hurl an ice moon, destroy a giant gem, and then lay a few thousand eggs. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 23:52:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
I'm still not sure why you guys are tying yourselves in such knots regarding these myths.
What are you going to do when more myths are introduced into the equation? We know that there are more myths out there, they just have not been revealed in Realms canon yet.
It's why I advocate for the approach of trying to figure out what is factual. That is how the myths are actually useful. For example, is this or that myth based on an actual event? Did this or that cult or faction have a reason to push this myth over others, if so why, and what does this tell us about the history of the Realms?
Let me give an example of how this works in the real world. Some years ago I watched a whole series of online lectures from Yale about the Old Testament. They are still online and can be found here. In particular Lecture 3, Lecture 4, and at least part of Lecture 5 would be of interest to this discussion.
I point people in this direction because I think it is the most productive way to think about these mythologies and myths. Look at how a real life scholar examines and breaks things down, and examine how she discusses dealing with multiple sources. Taking this sort of mind set and then bringing it back to deal with fictional work is helpful. I decided to rewatch those lectures that I linked too, just to refresh my memory, and as I listened to them a thought occurred to me--something important that we have not discussed.
Where did the information on the Dawn War come from? It came from the Dragonborn. The whole notion of Primordials also came from the Dragonborn. The Dragonborn came from Abeir.
I think it is reasonable to conclude that the Dragonborn exist on multiple worlds. We do not know where Dragonborn came from, but we do know they were not native to Toril prior to the Spellplague. This means that they either had to be created/born/whatever after Abeir was twinned from Toril, or they had to come from another world to Abeir--similar to other races have immigrated to Toril from other worlds.
We also know that Abeir did not have any deities, and if they did they did not survive long after the twinning of the worlds. So what is the basis of the Dragonborn belief that the Primordials fought deities? Is this a Torillian assumption? The Dragonborn do not seem to have the same conception of deities as Torillians do. A word that is used when referring to the deities, perhaps a Primordial word, is Estelar. What if the Estelar are not deities in the way that they are conceived of by the Torillians? What if they are similar entities to Primordials like Archfey, Archfiends, and other such beings? What if Estelar actually translates to and means something like, "the False Ones" or "those who are False?" What if Primordials have a conception or a psychology similar to that of beholders, where they view themselves as being the physical perfection of creation? We know a little bit about the psychology of the Elemental Lords like Kossuth, which are said to be primordials, and they do very much view themselves in this light. In fact, the Elemental Lords tend to be hostile toward each other--Kossuth and Istishia, as an example, are harsh rivals if not enemies. How would these beings view something like an Archfiend--a Demon Prince or one of the Lords of the Nine? They are all roughly the same in terms of power.
EDIT: Another contradiction and problem. According to the mythology surrounding Ubtao, which can be read about in Faiths and Pantheons as well as Powers and Pantheons, Ubtao made an agreement with the other deities. That agreement stated that in return for being given exclusive rights to be the only deity worshiped in Chult (basically: stay out of my backyard), that he would guard the Peaks of Flame against the prophesied doom of the world. According to this prophecy Dendar, the Night Serpent would emerge here and devour the sun. This is always pointing toward some future date, but 4th Edition lore has it happening in the past.
One of the things 3rd Edition lore introduces is that Shar has violated this pact by absorbing Ubtao's enemy/evil twin called Eshowdow. The text is explicit about what this means for the future, implying something ominous might happen.
My speculation is that other cults also started to make a move into Chult, especially as the region started opening up more to the surrounding world through trade. This would have caused ideological problems for the Ubtaian Priests. It is possible that this mythology started to undergo revision, as these new cults began to make an appearance in Chult. One of the easiest ways to reconcile this inconsistency is to have Dendar the Night Serpent already devour the Sun--but in a pre-history... before anything even really gets started.
It becomes easy to connect that mythological event to the sparse Sarrukh testimonials of a time of darkness and ice. As I said previously, the Sarrukh sources were likely refering to an extended Ice Age--not the Chultan mythologies.
Another interesting fact is that Ubtao has also fragmented into numerous nature spirits, much the same way as the World Serpent fragmented. One of the reasons that this is interesting is due to the location of Chult. World Serpent worship was strong in this region, and it is likely that humans of this region were enslaved by both Yaun-ti and Sarrukh at various points in history. I speculate that Ubtao may simply be a fragment of the World Serpent that the human slaves worshiped, and once they gained their freedom, their cult evolved eventually into the Ubtao cult we are familiar with today. ...and of course, like all fragments of the World Serpent, it also fractured and split.
Just to throw out there, what if Dendar comes through now and does devour the sun...... the one over Elturel that the folks who worship Amaunator created. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 00:07:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Then the elves screwed something up, and Ao had to split the world.
If we go by with they say in that video, Ao separated the worlds regardless of what the elves did or didn't. Whatever the elves screwed up, isn't related with the original Sundering.
One thing we have to take into account is that elves cannot be more powerful that Ao—they like to think that, but that is just overconfidence, not truth. They cannot force Ao to do anything.
[/quote]
This is somewhat what I was getting at earlier, and why I suggested the changes wrought by the creation of Evermeet were largely geographical changes. To say that the high elven ritual was powerful enough to change the timeline and force Ao to do things suggests that the high elven ritual was more powerful than Ao, and I don't think that's the cause. Yeah, they affected the timeline to an extent, but not even the Seldarine are that powerful. I don't think they could affect Ao's role in the timeline, or what he did. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 00:08:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
As the insomnia goes on, lets dive in this topic a little more.
The sarrukh were the ones who brought about new information (the Dawn War stuff). So, we have the following points:
1. Sarrukh myths had recollections of the Dawn War (as Ouroboros the World Serpent was involved in the conflict—so, mind, this happened before the World Serpent became divided into many gods).
2. Dragonborn myths from Abeir echoed those of the sarrukh (as incredible as it can sound, it seems dragonborn from Abeir knew of Io, Bahamut and Tiamat—even if there weren't gods in Abeir—, and they also, obviously knew about the primordials).
3. Yet, the sarrukh accounts (and potentially, dragonborn accounts as well) doesn't contradict the Netherese myths (as Selûne, Shar and other gods that "born in the conflict"—I guess, the rest of the Netherese pantheon—were involved in the Dawn War).
4. Chultan myths are also somewhat involved in all of this (as it reveal the origin of the enmity between Ubtao and Dendar).
Now, there is a question of mine: I see that you prioritize the sarrukh myths over the others. Is there a reason for this?
The Sarrukh gods are old, yeah, but so are the primordials (they existed even before the Goddess of Light and Darkness was created, in 4e myths) and so are also the dragon gods (Io is as old as Jazirian or Shekinester—even older if we go by the fact that Asgorath—who is Io—is a primordial).
Is there a reason to believe the sarrukh myth is the true one? Or a least, the "closer to truth"? Or is a preference of yours?
Can't Shar, Selûne and Shekinester exist as completely independent beings, unrelated one to the other? This is more true for Io/Asgorath*, as this god is known in multiple other spheres, and so cannot be Shar or Selûne. In fact, is some of those gods is masquerading the other, should in be in the inverse: Io would be Shar** or Selûne instead (as those goddesses aren't known in other spheres).
*Yeah, his/her death is completely conflicting with that fact that s/he later reappears during the Original Sundering to throw ice comets to Abeir-Toril, as Asgorath. And later on, in the time of the First Rage of Dragons, appears (as Io) to rise Kurtulmak and Kuraulyek as gods... (this is in the Grand History as well).
**There is this novel that says that Shar is from other sphere, though. But this contradicts her origin story as the other coin of Selûne. And we don't know her name in that sphere, nonetheless.
Now, more contradictions...
FRCG, p.200:
Of old, the Dawn Titans (the primordials) fought the Estelar (gods) and were humbled. Great was the slaughter among the Dawn Titans, but they retained Abeir for their own. Seared and ravaged by the divine fires of their foes, the few who survived were tired from strife. Sensing this, their steeds the dragons turned on and rose against the Dawn Titans, slaying more, until nearly all who yet endured retreated into the very stones of the mountains and fell silent.
From Gontal: the Dominions of Nehu (Dragon 375)
The Dawn Titans (the primordials) fought the Estelar (gods) and were humbled, but they retained Abeir for their own. Many primordials were slain in the conflict, but others survived within great fortresses. Few among the surviving primordials were prepared for the treachery of their own steeds and companions. When the dragons turned on the Dawn Titans in the War of Fang and Talon, many primordials who survived the divine war were destroyed, including the one whose ruined fortress now lies shattered across northern Gontal west of Lake Glaur.
From Wandering Stones (short-story):
Arambar’s residual power paints the sky its iron hue. But here in Wandering Stones, that residue is stronger. This is where Arambar died, struck down by his own steed, a dragon. This is where the primordial’s spirit rests uneasy.
From Sword of the Gods: Spinner of Lies (novel):
[...]this relic limb of the dead primordial Arambar, slain in the ancient wars before Abeir-Toril became two.
What's the point here?
There are dragons. As the primordials' steeds. Before the Original Sundering (as Arambar died "n the ancient wars before Abeir-Toril became two", "struck down by his own steed, a dragon.")
That means, dragons existed before the Tearfall...
Very good point. Were they fire breathing dragons? That's one thing I'd stress with the tearfall is that what came out weren't like all kinds of chromatic dragons. It was reds. Then, there was the renegade who cut himself and produced metallic dragons (presumably Bahamut). So, we don't necessarily know when/where the other chromatic dragons showed up. Maybe they were before. Maybe later. Maybe they were the creation of the Aearee (sp?) even, though I'm going to doubt this because Abeir had many colors and they're not specific to Toril. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 00:15:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
This is why I advocate for a different approach. Rather than trying to make stuff fit together, we should instead be deconstructing these mythologies to try and see what grains of truth we can tease out of them. Once we can figure out what is factual, we can then create a more coherent mythology--though this would necessitate throwing some of the contradictory stuff out. (For example, if Asgroth were to be used and connected to Io, then that means we should proclaim the 2E Draconomicon version, which clearly paints Asgroth as Tiamat, as Red Dragon propaganda--a corruption of an earlier mythology.)
It's a corruption of Asgorath throwing the ice moon/comet, it seems. Notice that Monster Mythology paints Io as a being with multiple heads, as well.
But yeah, I also think that some stuff must be taken as just myths. And the more likely candidate is the Netherese mythology, as it has changed too much to be "closer to truth".
However, the actual Netherese myths can be closer to truth. Is there a recollection of those myths somewhere?
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Yeah, what actual definitive proof do we have of her being a multispheric deity though?
Is the main plot point of one of the Sundering novels. I guess is the Herald?
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
I know some people have theorized over the years of a Shar/Tharizdun connection.
And Tharizdun exist in the Realms as his own being as well (as part of the Abyssal Plague metaplot, he gained a significant number of followers in the Realms).
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ao's a bit of a problem. He's always been a bit of a problem. Way back when we had him pegged as 'The Overgod of Realmspace', but unfortunately, he's become so much more (they tried to kill him off, and instead he just became more powerful LOL). He's obviously some much more ancient being, maybe something akin to marvel Comics' Living tribunal. In other words, 'when gods disagree', its his job to step-in and fix the mess... EVERYWHERE. Makes you wonder why he didn't repair Krynn's cataclysm, or a dozen other WSE's throughout D&D. There must be 'rules' we'll never know about.
Because Krynn has its own overpower, the High God  (yeah, he is literally called the High God). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 01:04:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
When we look at 4E core lore, I think it is important to remember that they stole a lot of stuff from the Realms that may not be backward compatible. So although 4E FR lore (in its historical recounting) claims that Asgorth the World Shaper was a primordial (which may or may not be true) that does not mean the the FR Asgroth is the same as the 4E core Asgroth. In the same way that the 4E core Bane is not the same Bane as in 4E FR. 4E Core lore is useful in so far as it could potentially help shed some light on some specific FR things, but the core lore should not be viewed as definitive FR canon--all that core stuff is subject to rectons and being overwritten in the future, whereas FR lore is -SUPPOSED- to stay consistent.
But there is no Asgorath in core 4e. Dragons aren't creations of the primordials neither their steeds in core 4e. They are the creations of the dragon god Io (yeah, I know, they are one and the same, as per Ed's tweet—yeah, I know, I'm shameless, bothering Ed in twitter...), but there is no mention of a primordial named Asgorath in lore from 4e core.
There is a myth that some dragons turned to the primordials in the Dawn War and were transformed into the cataclysmic dragons, but that happens after Io's death (they deemed either Bahamut and Tiamat so selfish and weak to follow, and casted their lot with the "winning side..." Yeah, great judging skills).
So, all the lore about Asgorath and ice moons and this stuff, is from FR materials. None from 4e core here. Even in the Heroes of the Elemental Chaos' list, Asgorath is specifically stated as a divine primordial from Abeir-Toril. So, is stuff we have to deal with, because is FR canon.
Okay. Well that is good to know.
Well, I guess that means we have to revisit the red dragon mythology then and declare what was written in 2E Draconomicon as Red Dragon propaganda.
So, let us make sure we are on the same page:
- Asgorth is an alternative name to Io.
- Io/Asgorth created the dragons.
- Io/Asgorth is a primordial, and is probably dead.
- Io/Asgorth may have had some hand in the creation of the Dragonborn.
Are those the facts, as they currently stand? Also, how does Asgorth relate to Bahamut and Tiamat?
It might be helpful we make two categories. One category is for bullet points of what is claimed. The second category is for bullet points of what can be proven--or is likely to be proven--as factual.
I am doing my best to try and keep us all from being boxed in, lol. The more room we have to maneuver the easier it is to create something that is coherent, and it gives us the ability to explain away inconsistencies.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Both Ed and Chris Perkins have said that there are natural portals to Abeir (before and after the Second Sundering), and Rich Baker said that is easier to create portals to Abeir than to the Outer Planes. So, I can see the dragons of the Time of Dragons as planeswalkers, moving from one plane to the other as freely as we move between continents. Dragons of old seem to have that kind of powerful magics (before they lost everything 'cuz elves). Remember, they even created a Weave Cannon, that not even Netheril, with all its magical prowess and Nether Scrolls, could replicate. This can also explain why Torilian and Abeiran draconic are nearly identical (see my point forward in this post).
Heck, I can even imagine a lot of dragons migrating from Toril to Abeir when the Dracorage happened, and before they lost the secrets of their ancient civilization and the remaining dragons of Toril forgot how to move between worlds (in the Brotherhood of the Griffon novels, Brimstone mentions that dragons had forgotten a lot of their stuff from the Time of Dragons, the Xorvintaal game being just one of the ancient secrets he had rediscovered since the dead of Sammaster).
The only problem I have with the portal stuff is that if lots of portals exist from Toril to Abeir, or access is in anyway easy before the Spellplague that causes other problems. Namely the reason no one had ever heard of Abeir pre-Spellplague.
The more and more I think about it the more I become convinced that the only way to solve these problems is to claim that sages got when the worlds were twinned wrong. The worlds were not twinned during the Tearfall. In the current timeline Abeir and Toril were always twinned, but there had been a point in the past when Abeir-Toril had been one. The "One World" as it were was overwritten by the Elven Sundering in the original timeline. When we get to the Tearfall, maybe the Batchari do more than simply cause an ice moon shatter and fragments to fall to Toril. Maybe they actually discover Abeir and what the Elves (who had yet to appear, lol) had done. Or at least had some ideas. They were able to "seize" upon the ripples created by the original Sundering and briefly bring Abeir and Toril back into alignment. Basically, they created a Spellplague like event. This is why the Sarrukh remark on the changing of the stars, they are watching their reality collide with another reality.
Anyway, the Tearfall happens to bring an end to that madness. Ao fixes the problem. Abeir and Toril are kept separate again. However...
Io/Asgorth was a primordial on Abeir. Unclear what happened there. However, Bahamut and Tiamat were also primordials. They came over from Abeir to Toril. This is why they are known on both worlds. Dragons begin to appear on Toril, and this along with the appearance of Bahamut and Tiamat ushered in the Time of Dragons. On Toril Dragonborn are created through the ritual. They were once created in the same way on Abeir, but became self-replicating. This never happens on Toril.
Abeir is actually closer to the "true" world--what things looked closet too prior to the meddling of the Elves. Toril is more of an "alternate timeline" world--a world that primordials never actually gain a foothold on, except for their brief appearance during the Tearfall.
Something like this might be the easiest way to try and reconcile all of the contradictions, lol. "Yeah, it happened... kinda... it was just in a different timeline or on a different world!"
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Talking with Erin in Faceborg, we came to the theory/conclusion that potentially the relationship between the dragonborn of Bahamut and those of Abeir is that dragons reverse engineered Bahamut's ritual and modified it so that the dragonborn they created could reproduce (they also weren't limited to create dragonborn from just metallic lineages). There is no point in creating a slave race that cannot replenish itself.
So, technically dragonborn of Bahamut are the prototypes of current dragonborn.
LOL. This is what I proposed and argued for after 4th Edition came out. It was such an obvious solution to introduce Dragonborn into the Realms. Sigh. All of the lore was already out there, all they had to do was use it, and instead they invented all of this other stuff that makes everything infinitely more complicated.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Yeah, you're right there. I ask because, while I'm pretty knowledgeable in 4e stuff, I lack in the department of pre-4e stuff. That's why I bombard you with questions,
I am on the other end of the spectrum. You know so much more about 4th Edition and stuff than I do.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
But while your approach is good (and I also think we have to take that approach to fix all the contradictions)...
Yeah, what I want for us--what I am trying to do for us all--is to give us the biggest possible space to operate. The bigger space we have to move in the easier it is to handle the contradictions and stuff. Some of the contradictions can be written off as, "some people incorrectly believe..." while others just cannot be written off at all they are fairly close to stone cold facts. Separating those two things is insanely important for us--otherwise trying to untangle the knot of contradictions will drive us insane, lol.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
... we have to take into account some facts about draconic culture. And one is that draconic culture is monolithic. It changes and evolves, yes, but at a very slow rate. Their current culture is no more different from that of the Time of Dragons, beyond some forgotten stuff thanks to the dracorages or the years of bondage the dragons of Abeir suffered under their primordial masters.
Look to their language for an example. It seems that their language has changed little since dragons developed it. Its a language with almost 32000+ years of history (in the Realms, at least), and beyond one dead dialect (High Aragrakh), the language has changed almost nothing. Heck, the only difference between Abeiran draconic and Torilian draconic is the pronuntiation of some words.
So, we have to take into account that this will also apply to their myths. Those myths may have changed just a little bit from their earlier, "closer to truth" incarnations, even with 32000+ years of story.
So, while the Netherese myths evolved and integrated myths from other cultures to become complicatedly rich in traditions and almost completely different from those told when Netheril still existed, I see the draconic nearly as identical as they were told in the Time of Dragons, not only because they can talk with old primordials (who hate dragons, such as Arambar, so will be not biased... or biased against dragons), but because of the very slow evolution of the draconic culture.
That's a really good point. I did not think of that, but you are correct here. However, we still need to figure out when dragons came onto the scene. We have to solve the Tearfall and the Time of Dragons problem. Prior to 4th Edition, Dragons did not even show up on Toril until after the Tearfall--that is why they are not one of the creator races. Yet, as you pointed out previously, there is 4E lore that would put them on Toril before the Tearfall.
We need to tackle this problem, specifically, before we can evaluate what knowledge is relevant from the perspective of the dragons. The same might be true of the Primordials as well (i.e. the stuff with Arambar).
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Yeah, my problem with that myth is that is copy-pasted from this book, that talks about the dragonborn of Arkhosia... the ancient empire of dragonborn in the Nentir Vale setting (so, its a book from core 4e stuff).
So, its what I've been saying all the time: they guy who wrote the SCAG knew nothing about 4e, and copy-pasted the first stuff he found about dragonborn, without realizing he was using material from a source that was not 4e FR, and in fact contradicted 4e FR lore (the fact that in Abeir there were no gods, not even dragon gods). However, it became an FR material now, since is in the SCAG, so we have to work with it, regardless if contradicts 4e FR lore or not.
Don't get me wrong, I love the SCAG. But the book does a disservice to 4e lore, sadly.
Ugh. As if things were not already difficult and confusing enough, lol.
Like I said previously, we could make Bahamut and Tiamat primordials. Have them on Abeir and then have them come over from Abeir during the Tearfall and eventually ascend to divinity. That way they are not deities until after they are in Toril.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, while the sages of Toril and Abeir have no way to know it, we know (thanks to authors and game designers) that Ao did separated the worlds at this point. We also know that Asgorath threw the moon. That was no myth, but a fact also. Is all in the video about the Sundering someone posted in the other post (here, for reference).
Is kinda meta-knowledge, yeah, but is canon. That happened, because author confirmed it. Its what is called a "Word of God". Is a fact we have to dealt with.
So, we have to take into account that, while the elves did changed history, their Sundering didn't caused the twinning of Abeir-Toril. In they video, they say that the elven Sundering was "similar in concept to the one that Ao used". So, Ao did sundered Abeir-Toril regardless if the elves creating or not their Sundering.
Is it wrong to retcon designers and authors if it is only something they say, and not in published material?
I mean, technically, they could retcon themselves and it would really be a retcon because it didn't appear in published canon. Similar to how anything Ed says here is considered canon unless published lore overwrites it.
LOL. I am looking for any way possible to get out of this box we are all trapped in.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The problem with this is that creates parallel versions of the primordials. Like, there is an Ubtao in Toril, and other in Abeir. And canon says this is not the case. Heroes of the Elemental Chaos states that primordials, unlike gods, cannot be multi-spheric (perhaps because of their nature as manifestations of physical energies, unlike gods, that are philosophical stuff and ideals). Primordial are anchored to the part of the multiverse they chose to stay. So, the "re-writting of history" have to account for that. There cannot be parallel versions of the primordials, while gods can have that stuff.
If this help, it seems that while some primordials chose to went to Abeir (it was their new playground), a minority chose to remain in Toril, either as open allies of the gods (Ubtao, Elemental Lords), because they were prisoners, and thus could not be moved without risking the multiverse to destruction (Dendar, Kezef), or just went to hide and sleep because they didn't wanted to go to Abeir but either wanted to face the wrath of the gods (Borem, Maegera).
Also, your theory has a problem on its own: it changes the whole past of Abeir-Toril. By logic, the elves cannot change the history of the world before of the creation of Evermeet, just after. So, the elven Sundering can only have rewrote the history after -31000 DR, not before.
(Elves cannot be more powerful than their gods, and their gods cannot be more powerful than Ao).
According to canon we know that when the Elves (in the Torillian timeline) cast the Sundering High Magic Ritual that it sent ripples forward and backward in time, and it made the world as if Evermeet had always been there. So, canonically, the Elves did change the history of the world before the creation of Evermeet. It basically comes down to whether or not you want a minimalize or an expansionist view of the extent to which they modified history. At the most minimal, all they did was modify history to create Evermeet. At its most expansionist, the world was radically altered and changed by the event. This exists on a sliding scale, with many points in between.
The reason I would advocate for a really strong expansionist view of what the Elven Sundering did is that I feel that it is the easiest way out of the knot that we are tied up into. If we can claim that there are two timelines then that gives us the ability to try and reconcile some of the problems.
As to Ubtao, I think it might be easier to claim that sages were wrong and that he is not a primordial. We have no idea when Ubtao appeared, though he may be ancient. Because it is a Chultan deity then that means there is a close connection the Serpent Folk of Merrshaulk. We also know, canonically, that Ubtao divided similarly to the World Serpent into a number of different nature deities. During the Time of Troubles at least one of his aspects appeared in the form of a Dinosaur and was being chased around by Sseth (until the Sarrukh of Okoth worked out a deal with Set to put Sseth in an eternal slumber--prompting the Secret War of the Serpents as per 4th Edition).
I suspect that Dendar the Night Serpent probably is a primordial though, but Dendar has never really left her lair on the planes. As far as I know she has only slithered around on the Lower Planes and mostly spends her time in the Fugue Plane gorging herself on the nightmares of mortals. Prior to 4th Edition and the concept of Primordials she was seen as an Elder Evil. Also prior to 4th Edition, she had never devoured the sun, or anything else that I am aware of on the prime material plane. Different cultures have different conceptions of Dendar, though.
Anyway, outside of sort of retconning the meta knowledge given to us by designers (but not technically retconning canon), and adopting some type of expansionist view of the Elven Sundering--I am not sure how we fix these contradictions. |
Edited by - Aldrick on 11 Aug 2017 01:13:19 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 01:11:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So the Shattering of the First World had nothing to do with - and could be thousands of years separated from - the Sundering of The One World.
That's why I propose that the Shattering of the First World would be related with the destruction of the Lattice of Heaven. From Secrets of the Astral Plane (p.6)
The Astral Sea is a former battlefield still ravaged by the cosmic conflict known as the Dawn War. The deities were the original inhabitants of the astral realm when the world was newly created by the primordials and the mortal races had yet to find their final forms. Along with shaping and refining the creation of the world, the gods had grand plans for a single realm that would link all their dominions together with an all-powerful astral connection known as the Lattice of Heaven.
When the gods intervened to prevent the primordials from destroying the world and starting a new creation, the primordials responded by invading the Plane Above. Gods died, dominions crumbled, and the incomplete Lattice of Heaven was shattered into fragments. The astral world that had nearly become a fantastic interlocked mesh of divine dominions blew apart into an infinite silver sea. Much later, when the gods had eked out a narrow victory in the Dawn War, only a few of the divine dominions that survived the devastation still functioned for their deities, hinting at the glory that died forever when the primordials destroyed the Lattice.
This is the first time I have heard of the Lattice of Heaven... what is it, exactly? I like that the Dawn War was pushed out into the planes. That makes MUCH more sense.
Is this all the lore we have on the Lattice of Heaven? |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 01:14:39
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just to throw out there, what if Dendar comes through now and does devour the sun...... the one over Elturel that the folks who worship Amaunator created.
That's not an actual sun. It is just an illusion. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 01:37:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
It's a corruption of Asgorath throwing the ice moon/comet, it seems. Notice that Monster Mythology paints Io as a being with multiple heads, as well.
But yeah, I also think that some stuff must be taken as just myths. And the more likely candidate is the Netherese mythology, as it has changed too much to be "closer to truth".
However, the actual Netherese myths can be closer to truth. Is there a recollection of those myths somewhere?
There is no "original" Netherese myth. It has even changed from edition to edition, lol.
If I had to reconstruct the original it would look something like...
- The world starts off in a chaotic void of shadows.
- A being emerges from these shadows, separating light and darkness. This is the Two-Faced Goddess, Selune and Shar before they were divided.
- This Two-Faced Goddess is a Creator Goddess, and she makes Jannath (later Jannath is dropped and replaced with Chauntea). Jannath is a Gaia like figure and the embodiment of nature.
- Lots of creation stuff happens, other gods and beings appear.
- Some type of fight happens, and this causes the Creator Goddess to make the Night and the Day and thus creating time.
- This aforementioned fighting divides the children of the Creator Goddess. This gives the explanation for evil and stuff.
So, by the end of it, there is a pantheon with the Creator Goddess at the head, and some rival deities / fiends / whatever opposing them.
Then over time there is a schism within the Creator Goddess faith. This results in the creation of the cults of Selune, Shar, and Mystryl. The creation mythology gets re-written to reflect the outcome of this schism.
This explains why in the myth that Shar and Selune are not described as two separate deities from the beginning, but rather two-faces of the same goddess. ...because at one point in history, they likely were the same deity, or at least worshiped that way by the early Netherese. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 03:33:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Well, I guess that means we have to revisit the red dragon mythology then and declare what was written in 2E Draconomicon as Red Dragon propaganda.
So, let us make sure we are on the same page:
- Asgorth is an alternative name to Io.
- Io/Asgorth created the dragons.
- Io/Asgorth is a primordial, and is probably dead.
- Io/Asgorth may have had some hand in the creation of the Dragonborn.
Are those the facts, as they currently stand? Also, how does Asgorth relate to Bahamut and Tiamat?
Is more complicated than this. Is somehow like this:
-Asgorath is the Realms name of Io. A book called Cult of the Dragon also says this. I got that pdf when I bough some 2e books a few months ago, but I hadn't actually read it until today (and truth be said, I'm only reading the pantheon section, lol—and I bothered Ed with this, lol... in my defense, I bought this book this year, ).
It seems Asgoroth is a typo, as 2e Draconomicon, Cult of the Dragon and Heroes of Elemental Chaos called her Asgorath. This is another point: As Io, he is a god. As Asgorath, she is a primordial... so, the idea of Markustay that Io/Asgorath is a more ancient being maybe is "closer to truth".
-Io/Asgorath created the draconic pantheon. There are many gods (the pantheon differs across worlds, according to Monster Mythology), but Cult of the Dragon have those as specific gods of dragons in the Realms (p.120):
Aasterinian (known in the Realms as Hlal), Astilabor, Bahamut (known in ancient times as Xymor), Chronepsis, Falazure (both of those are known in the Realms as aspects of one single, two-aspected deity, Null, though it seems the truth is that both gods are indeed separate beings), Garyx, Kereska, Lendys, Tamara, Task, Tiamat, and Zorquan.
Some myths, those regarding the World Serpent confusing stuff, instead say that Io/Asgorath and Chronepsis are brothers, both embodiments of the same archetype that the World Serpent represents: that of multiplicity of being. In those myths, Io/Asgorath is known to have nine heads (so, the red dragon propaganda is possibly a misinterpretation of this stuff).
In the earlier myths Io/Asgorath created Bahamut and Tiamat with the intention they would mate to create the perfect dragon race, but both gods were at odds as soon as they born. This is because Tiamat killed the firstborn of Io/Asgorath, Vorel, who was an imperfect prototype of the perfect dragon race, and tried to blame Bahamut of the deed (because she was jealous of both). Their enmity comes from those times according to those myths (this is stated in Races of the Dragons, a 3e book). Io then created the rest of the draconic pantheon as we know it.
- Io/Asgorath created the dragons. There are lot of myths about how he created them. Personally, I like more the one from Draconomicon 2: Metallic Dragons (a setting neutral 4e book). If you can afford the 4e Draconomicons, I highly recommend them.
One of the dragonborn myths states Io crafted the dragonborn at this point, as servants of the dragons. Another dragonborn myth (a bolder, more polemic one) states that dragonborn were created first, and dragons later, as weapons of destruction at the start of the Dawn War. This myth also states that humans, elves, dwarves and other humanoids were crafted later, as other gods tried to imitate (and failed) the draconic perfection of Io's creation.
Another important point here: dragons from Toril know Io/Asgorath by the name of Asgorath, but it seems the dragons and dragonborn from Abeir know it by the name of Io. I find interesting that the inhabitants of the world of the gods know this being by its primordial name, while the inhabitants of the world of primordials, know it by its godly name (yeah, I know IRL is rather accidental, but is curious, and we can work with this).
-Io dies in the Dawn War, killed by the powerful primordial Erek-Hus, the King of Terror. The 4e core myth states that this was because Zehir betrayed him to the primordials. Since Zehir is a deity in the Realms as well (by another mistake IRL), I guess this is something worth mentioning.
One myth says that instead Bahamut and Tiamat are born here, each from one of the halves of Io. Bahamut got Io's good traits, and most of his power, and Tiamat got Io's bad traits. Both inherited Io's worst quality: his preference for working alone. They joined forces for the first time (and perhaps, the only one) after "birth", chased Erek-Hus (the full myth states that Erek-Hus had to flee across the Elemental Chaos, even asking Imix for help, but Imix didn't helped him, instead converting some traitorous dragons into wildfire dragons, one of the cataclysmic draconic species) and killed Erek-Hus in a rather easy fight for them. Then battled each other, Bahamut won forcing Tiamat to flee, and then both dragon gods joined the greater Dawn War, helping the other gods.
There is one dragonborn myth that say the dragonborn race born from this event, sprang up from Io's blood, ready to serve dragons. Another myth says that a tiny fragment of Io was reborn as one of those dragonborn, and has been reincarnating for generations in his or her descendants, gaining power until the moment Io can revive again.
This is the 4e core myth. However, since the SCAG made it the Abeiran myth as well, I share in its complete form, because maybe will be useful.
-Eons later, in the Days of Thunder, Asgorath appears to throw moons at Toril (that was the primordials sport of that time (?)).
This raises an important question: If Io was killed in the Dawn War, why Asgorath appeared in the Tearfall? (yeah, blame the SCAG for this).
-The kobolds and urds from Toril have a myth regarding Io of their own as well. Is in Grand History (p.9) and in Races of the Dragon. Both versions are the same, with a few changes (Io-Asgorath names swamping, and the version in Races of the Dragon is more detailed). Here is a recap (non-biased by a dragon-lover, of course ):
When the treacherous Garl Glittergold killed Kurtulmak and his kobolds by collapsing the mines of Darasthrixhurti (current day Hidden Lake), the other gods did nothing for those poor kobolds, accepting Garl's excuses that it was an accident and that kobolds had been enslaving those foolish creation of his (the gnomes... Kobolds enslaving those lesser beings? Perish the thought! Those foolish are useful for just one thing: to be killed mercilessly), Io/Asgorath saw the need to compensate the kobolds for the crimes of the elves (the dracorage) and the indifference of the gods, raising Kurtulmak to godhood. Seeing that Kurtulmak will want revenge against the urds (who fled instead of helping the kobolds), s/he also raised their leader, Kuraulyek, to godhood as well.
So, there is another myth that contradicts Io's death in the Dawn War (blame the SCAG for this, as well).
My solution: death is no permanent for gods, primordials, and their higher kin. Or the dragonborn with the shard of Io revived him/her/it... whatever.
So, here you go. The full facts of the Io/Asgorath dichotomy.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Like I said previously, we could make Bahamut and Tiamat primordials. Have them on Abeir and then have them come over from Abeir during the Tearfall and eventually ascend to divinity. That way they are not deities until after they are in Toril.
Maybe Erin can help us here. This is from The Devil You Know:
quote:
"What is this place?" Dumuzi asks.
"What remains of Zigguraxus," Enlil said. "I have this much power now, to find it again. But not yet to pull it back." He looks up at the sky, clear and endless. "Once this was a kingdom unto itself. The resting place of all my children. The seat of every god who followed me to this world." He points to the edges of the world, like the points of a many-armed compass. "Inanna. Ki. Gurru. Nanna-Sin. Marduk. Nergal. Ramman. Tiamat. Utu. Assuran. Ishtar. Gilgeam."
"Gilgeam was your ally?" Dumuzi asks, surprised. Enlil looks down at him, puzzlement in his golden eyes.
"Gilgeam was my son," Enlil said.
An heir, a scion, a tyrant—somehow Dumuzi has never drawn the lines back to what that must mean. Why would he? he supposes. Gods are not like mortals. "And Tiamat?"
"A point of balance in the beginning," Enlil said. "If there is order, then, too, must there be chaos. But this plane fed her worst nature, merged her with something too great to be balanced by us alone." Enlil looks to the stars again, his black scales nearly the shade of the night sky. "We are constant and we are changeable. It is difficult to explain."
Does this sparks your imagination?
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Is it wrong to retcon designers and authors if it is only something they say, and not in published material?
I mean, technically, they could retcon themselves and it would really be a retcon because it didn't appear in published canon. Similar to how anything Ed says here is considered canon unless published lore overwrites it.
LOL. I am looking for any way possible to get out of this box we are all trapped in.
Your point is a valid one. And in other instances, I'll go that path. But in this instance, that argument was the basis of the Sundering novels, those novels were written with that background as the "truth".
So, its something published. We can tweak it a bit, but is something we have to deal with.º
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
According to canon we know that when the Elves (in the Torillian timeline) cast the Sundering High Magic Ritual that it sent ripples forward and backward in time, and it made the world as if Evermeet had always been there. So, canonically, the Elves did change the history of the world before the creation of Evermeet. It basically comes down to whether or not you want a minimalize or an expansionist view of the extent to which they modified history. At the most minimal, all they did was modify history to create Evermeet. At its most expansionist, the world was radically altered and changed by the event. This exists on a sliding scale, with many points in between.
The reason I would advocate for a really strong expansionist view of what the Elven Sundering did is that I feel that it is the easiest way out of the knot that we are tied up into. If we can claim that there are two timelines then that gives us the ability to try and reconcile some of the problems.
As to Ubtao, I think it might be easier to claim that sages were wrong and that he is not a primordial. We have no idea when Ubtao appeared, though he may be ancient. Because it is a Chultan deity then that means there is a close connection the Serpent Folk of Merrshaulk. We also know, canonically, that Ubtao divided similarly to the World Serpent into a number of different nature deities. During the Time of Troubles at least one of his aspects appeared in the form of a Dinosaur and was being chased around by Sseth (until the Sarrukh of Okoth worked out a deal with Set to put Sseth in an eternal slumber--prompting the Secret War of the Serpents as per 4th Edition).
I suspect that Dendar the Night Serpent probably is a primordial though, but Dendar has never really left her lair on the planes. As far as I know she has only slithered around on the Lower Planes and mostly spends her time in the Fugue Plane gorging herself on the nightmares of mortals. Prior to 4th Edition and the concept of Primordials she was seen as an Elder Evil. Also prior to 4th Edition, she had never devoured the sun, or anything else that I am aware of on the prime material plane. Different cultures have different conceptions of Dendar, though.
Anyway, outside of sort of retconning the meta knowledge given to us by designers (but not technically retconning canon), and adopting some type of expansionist view of the Elven Sundering--I am not sure how we fix these contradictions.
The problem with that theory, is that makes the elves who made that ritual more powerful that even Ao. They forced him to act to save the world, twining it into two timestreams, because the high magic was about to destroy the universe (well, Realmspace).
That is not possible, because the Seldarine stopped the destruction, and the Seldarine cannot be more powerful than Ao. So, the elven Sundering cannot force Ao to do anything.
So, while your approach is the most likely solution to our conundrum (so grown up word, lol), we have to make it work unrelated to the Sundering of Abeir-Toril and the Tearfall. The elves cannot be made responsible of Ao sending the primordials to Abeir. This is an event that happened in "both timelines," regardless of elven intervention.
So, solution (because I'm here giving to much "buts", but no solutions): maybe the elves changed specific points, but not the whole timeline of the world. Those specifics can be our contradictions (how convenient!)
As for Ubtao being a primordial, is a canon stuff, sadly. However, we know primordials can ascend to godhood.
BTW, the World Serpent in 4e is classified as a Primal Spirit. There is an article about the Moonshaes that talk about this, in one of the Dragon or Dungeon mags from 4e. Those spirits are the embodiments of the "awakened consciousness" of the world itself, and are as mighty as gods and primordials. The article cites a few more of those spirits (such as Nobanion).
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
This is the first time I have heard of the Lattice of Heaven... what is it, exactly? I like that the Dawn War was pushed out into the planes. That makes MUCH more sense.
Is this all the lore we have on the Lattice of Heaven?
Is from core 4e lore. The Lattice of Heaven was a super powerfull dimensional path/connection the gods of the Nentir Vale world were creating during the creation of the cosmos. Specifically, Erathis (who is like Athena and Chauntea in concept) and Moradin. The idea was that the Lattice of Heaven would connect all the Astral Dominions of the gods and the mortal world, transforming all reality in a single realm.
When the primordials went to war against the gods (the event that is later know as the Dawn War), their first attack in the realms of the gods ended with the Lattice of Heaven destroyed.
Since the Lattice was connected to the mortal world, I can see this as the moment the First World was shattered (or at least, began to shatter, and ended it shattered at/near the end of the Dawn War).
There is more lore about it in the Secrets of the Astral Plane book, and an article about runepriests in Dragon 394, but is mostly core 4e (Erathis trying to rebuilt the Lattice, the epic battle of Kord vs the slaad lord Ygorl to recover the rune that powered the Lattice). So, I guess is of no use here. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 11 Aug 2017 04:02:40 |
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What if the Abeir / Toril "out of synch" is TIME
