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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Aug 2017 : 06:16:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The blood began to spill onto the young world, and something 'froze' it into a nice, neat little ball?
Then something else destroyed it (Asgorath/Io), and the 'frozen' blood was released? That could be a way of meshing the myths together... especially if we say the moon 'Zotha' was really a piece of Siberys.
After posting that last night, I was thinking more on how to connect it all - Essylliss was the aspect of the World Serpent assigned to Toril (maybe all of Realmspace). The world serpent was 'fractured', just as the (First) world was 'Sundered'. Syberys could just be the Eberron version of Essylliss, and the 'blood' is their physical essence in the world (in Toril, it took the form of the Ice Moon Zotha).
Connecting it to what I said above, somehow the Fey felt responsible for that blood 'raining down' on Toril. The elves also have another myth of 'people created from the blood of a god' - the ELVES from Corellon. Hmmmmm... there is something here but I can't quite put my finger on it. A duality, similar to the Bahamut/Tiamat thing, or the Selūne/Shar thing (same story, happening over and over, on the myriad 'reflections' {Crystal Spheres} of the First World?)
Does Gruumsh somehow represent 'primal rage'? Somehow I have to figure-out how to connect 'the blood of the good god' vs 'the blood of the evil god'. The progeny of that 'good blood' was sent (by the Fey) to counteract the offspring of the 'bad blood' (the dragons).
Don't elves have some sort of deep connection to dragons? Aside from riding them, can't some of them turn into dragons? Could THAT be where the good (metallic) dragons have originated? I have always tried to say that the dragons came from the dwarves (because of Norse mythology), but maybe for D&D/FR that isn't the best possible solution. I could always go with the Linnorms being dwarves.
Races being born of the flesh and blood of gods shouldn't be all that special. I'm betting this is a common way for some of the original gods to have given some of their essence in order to create mortal races. In fact, it is the tearing away from the immortal body that turns these droplets of blood into something that's dying... and thus mortal.... and thus life could be a reflection of this. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2017 : 07:27:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
If we go by 4e lore, the Seldarine already existed (at least with a few of its members) before the Dawn War, as some of them (besides Corellon and Sehanine) also fought against the Primordials.
I guess some of this is also mentioned in that article in Dragon #408.
There is however, has some contradictions, as Lolth's fall happens amid the Dawn War in 4e lore (though she remained ally with the other gods until the end of the war).
It's not clear that the lore from Dragon #408 is Realmslore, lore intended for the core setting of 4th Edition, or lore for general use. In any case, it starts off by talking about "the varied myths and contradictions of D&D® history."
Even the pre-history stuff of 4th Edition is considered mythology. According to the 4E FRCG, pg. 41:
quote:
The most common account of Toril's prehistory traces its roots back to ancient Netheril. This popular human myth recounts the creation of the universe by Lord Ao and the epic struggle between the gods of light and darkness that followed. Only recently have other, more ancient legends come to light, recounted by the sarrukh of Okoth and echoed by the dragonborn of Returned Abeir. By combining common threads from both accounts, backed by diligent factfinding missions, scholars and historians of today have gained a clearer understanding of the creation of the universe.
Theory: What if when the Elves originally arrived on Toril it looked similar to Abeir? It was a world largely ruled by Dragons and Primordials. The big difference is that the Weave--or something like it--existed. The Elves naturally would have wanted a safe place from this so they attempted to create Evermeet, and well... we know it went wrong.
So, the magic rippled forward and backward in time. To preserve the world Ao twinned the planet, creating Abeir and Toril. Abeir is the "true" world--the world as it was when the Elves created Evermeet. Magic no longer functions on that world as it does on Toril, because of what was done to the "Weave" of that world. Toril is the alternate twin that was created by Ao to save the world from utter destruction. In this world an alternate history was created, one in which Evermeet always existed as the Elves desired. However, the Elves also desired a world without Primordials and Dragons. Thus, in the creation of this "new world" the Primordials were "asleep" and the Dragons frozen in eggs within a second moon.
Then as the timeline advanced on Toril, the batrachi awoke the primordials in their war against the giants. Ao banished the awoken primordials to Abeir. Perhaps on Abeir there was once a time when deities and primordials did battle, but the Primordials won and this was the world discovered by the Elves? It is difficult to say, as the history of Abeir may have changed as well.
This could also play into things like the Elves creating the Dracorage Mythal and the Fey opening gates to bring the Green Elves to Toril. It is perhaps no accident that the Fey were working to undermine dragonic rule of Toril before the arrival of the Elves.
It may even be possible that the original spell cast by the Elves on Abeir-Toril (when the planets were one), was designed to alter history more than to create Evermeet. It is only on Toril--when the history of the Sunderings intersects--that the goal becomes to create Evermeet. Perhaps Evermeet serves as some sort of focal point. It has this odd connection with the Feywild and Arvandor.
From Ao's perspective, he would have seen the Elves basically ripping apart space and time itself--and failing horribly. The magic could have been threatening to destroy the entire world. Thus, he commanded the Selderine to use their power to anchor the Elven magic, while he sundered the worlds--a necessary act to prevent utter catastrophe. Thus, the bulk of Abeir's magic is being used to anchor Evermeet in place on Toril, but it is completely cut off from Abeir.
Ao then crafts the Tablets of Fate to keep the worlds separate. The histories diverge. Ao destroys the Tablets of Fate after the Time of Troubles, and the Sundering caused by the Elves begins to cause problems again. All the stuff of the Era of Upheaval happens. Then Ao reforges the Tablets of Fate--actually bringing an end to the Sundering caused by the Elves once and for all. Now both Abeir and Toril are completely free from the effects of the Sundering and are stable. New laws for the cosmos have been written by Ao. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2017 : 15:28:26
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First, that article about Gruumsh and Corellon's battle was based on MY lore, and I was asked permission to use it. And although I love it (naturally), I would have to agree that the whole thing is written in that 'uncertain 3rd person' presentation (so, its more 'allegory' than factuality). I couldn't agree more with that type of presentation (knowing full well how much both elf and orc lovers would hate it... and I'm an orc-lover m'self), although I did not know at the time I was asked that that would be how it would be written.
Second, the Seldarine's history makes little sense, and once again, we have a case of people doing little to no research before committing something to canon. There were NO ELVES in Abeir-Toril. Thats why there weren't any in Abeir (or, at least, there weren't supposed to be until someone else also didn't bother doing their homework). The FEY fled (Abeir-)Toril - presumably after the affair of the Black Diamond - and went to the Feywild (which is why I say it couldn't possibly have been named that before they got there). THEN they sent 'Elves' - something they 'created' (which is why I say they must be post-Dawn War 'mortals') to confront the dragons on Toril, BEFORE Tintageer was destroyed and those Elves - Gold & Silver ('High') arrived in Toril themselves. The original group of (Sylvan) Elves DID NOT worship the Seldarine. That would mean they probably never even heard of them, OR, they were still 'mortals' themselves at the time of the sylvan elf departure. When the the Elves from Tintageer arrived in Faerūn, they DID 'worship' (pay homage to?) Corellon & Co.
THUS, the Seldarine cannot be 'ancient fey powers'. They just can't be. Originally in my writings/musings (back when i was still a 'GH DM') I figured them for archtypes (in fact, thats even where I got that term - from a discussion on the difference between the 'local' demihuman pantheons, and the 'true' one in the Great Wheel/PS). But in light of their history - and FR's history, that just isn't possible. they may present themselves as such, and modern elves might believe it, but it just can't be true. Even the 'Fey Powers' themselves were not part of the 'Elder Gods' - they were archfey who ascended after receiving worship/adulation from 'their people' (the Immortals of Abeir-Toril).
Thus, the elves (both 'High' and 'low' {Sylvan/Green}) had to have been created sometime after-34,000 DR* and before -27,000 DR (7000 years), when the first elves were sent to Toril. It says it numerous canon sources that Corellon and (most of?) the other Seldarine ARE, in fact, 'Elves'. They could not have pre-existed their own race! In fact, when Corellon 'curses' Lolth, she wasn't a goddess yet - she was 'just a dark elf'. She had to work her way up through the ranks to demon-Queen all the way to full goddess.
As part of the Elves of Faerūn project, I was going to do a piece called 'the Tablets of Destiny' (and it does indeed have a VERY similar name to an item associated with Tiamat... I did that on-purpose), which was to be one of those in-setting, 'uncertain 3rd person' style histories, and it would document 21 millennia of Elven history, BEFORE they came to Toril. I would probably have to tweak that now. Anyhow, the idea there was that the Elves were the children born to the Fey after the Dawn War, and were thus 'mortal' (albeit still long-lived). In fact, all children of the Creator Races were born mortal after that, which is why there are almost none of the originals left, and the 'modern variants' on them are so different (and not just from world-to-world - Toril alone has at least 3 'offshoots' of the Aeree, the least 'Creationist' of the creators). I would say that the Seldarine were probably among the first deities - beings that arose from the ranks of the Immortals (Creator Races) and became 'gods'. So in that context, one could say they are 'among the oldest of the gods'.
And 7000 years is a LONG time. That would have been the final 7000 years of the 21 books (millennia) of the Tablets of Destiny. THE most important period for the Elves, because it would have documented the rise of the seldarine; and YES, I have it where Gruumsh - Gru'Mass (Wild Spirit) - was the brother of Cor-Ellion, and they were fraternal twins, with different fathers (their mother would have been Titania, which unfortunately - thanks to 4e lore - makes Auril their 'aunt'. I may have to tweak that now). Hopefully, as part of the KandleKanon, I hope to finally write my Tablets of Destiny piece (although its going to be a HARD 'sell' to elf-lovers).
And of course, the way I will be writing it is once-again using my (Dark) elven scholar sharing something that a centaur scholar (from another crystal sphere) shared with him, so that all of it can be taken 'with a grain of salt' (Uncertain 3rd person). With the 4e lore - especially Abeir - its going to be a tough re-write, but I have some ideas already. It shoe-horns with my Creator-Race lore, so I suppose I'll have to write some of that up as well (especially regarding my theories about the 'Sauroid Creator Race', the Sarrukh, and the Saurials).
As for the 'being born form the blood of gods' - I think in the case of the elves, its more allegorical, whereas in the case of the dragons, its more factual (although both contain bits of both). Another thing I am going to have to work-out so everything comes together. I'm still thinking the Giants/Annam had to be the 'trigger event'. I may have to go 'Marvel Comics meets Narnia' on that one. LOL
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Aug 2017 15:29:50 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2017 : 16:01:27
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Afterthought (because the above was already to lengthy to add footnotes to):
WHAT IF the Fey wanted to stop the sinking of Tintageer before it happened? Maybe that is what the elves going against the dragons was all about! What if the Fey pantheon foresaw the destruction of the 'Elven Homeland' within Faerie, and sent the elves to prevent that from happening? And that's possible without more 'time-fudging' because the elves didn't cast their ritual to create Evermeet until much later (so they had the time between the two events to think about it, and try to stop it from happening in the first place). And, of course, THEY FAILED. The elves needed their 'homeland' on Toril because they felt threatened, and even after the problem of the dragons was resolved, events unfolded where the timeline self-corrected and those events STILL happened anyway (they felt threatened by other elves!) In other words, the Fey trying to stop the event from happening (the 'create evermeet' ritual) happened BECAUSE they interfered and tried to stop it! Sounds like some mega-major Karma to me! And it sounds both folklorish, and fits with FR's flavor nicely.
I have SO MANY ideas right now... 
*Footnote form above:
-34,000 DR is when the GHotR sates that the fey already exist in 'the otherworldy realm of Faerie', but doesn't really say what they mean by that, or how long its been around (it may have been created that year, or already existed for who-knows-how-long). My idea for this is that after the Black Diamond incident, they created faerie in a 'pocket plane', and this was attached to Abeir-Toril, but when that plane was 'Sundered', their connection was lost (they were 'set adrift'), and they brought their realm to some unnamed plane the giants were inhabiting. In fact, the giants of Jotunheim had also been 'set adrift' when the First world was destroyed, so perhaps the two 'collided', as it were, and the feywild formed around them? It could go either way - I only just now realized that the giants would have had no reason to have their own 'world' before the First World was destroyed... although the creation of Abeir and Toril as separate worlds may have happened well after that very first 'Sundering' (Shattering/Fracturing). In fact, I am only now starting to think that may resolve quite a few issues (keeping the Dawn War and Realmspace's 'Sundering' separate).
ANYHOW, they create Faerie in a pocket plane because Ladinion ( their first homeland) was destroyed. However, they maintain their connection Abeir-Toril for some time after, and only after the Sundering do most leave for good (a few archfey stay behind, for various reasons). There were probably 'created races' (pixies, Korreds, etc) already, but not elves. The elves are 'special', in that they ARE 'the Fey', but they are lesser versions, because they were born after the Dawn War. That should solve some lore issues where 'fey' is used interchangeably with 'elves' (including in the GHotR!)
So, taking all that into account, then there should be 'lesser versions' of all five of the Creatori. 'Mankind' is easy - there are 'First Men' we just never see in Toril - immortals from the beginning of time, from the Blackmoor civilization. I suppose Aarakocra could be the 'mortal' Aearee, and Lizardmen could be the mortal remnants of the Sarrukh, but what about the Batrachi? I've connected them to the Slaad, but could ALL of them have fled to limbo? And the Slaad certainly aren't 'lesser' versions. Hmmmm...
Dopplangers?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Aug 2017 16:03:21 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2017 : 16:37:41
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We have Selune and Shar as one entity
We have Selune
We have Shar
We have Selune hurling a portion of herself INTO Shar and ripping a portion out
Then we have Mystryl
What if it was THEN that the world was "twinned", and essentially then also that Selune and Shar "fully" separated. So perhaps it wasn't so much Selune "hurling a piece of herself at Shar" as ripping herself "from" Shar and as a result a small portion of the two of them that's still intertwined falling out. Maybe the aspect which was Shar enabled the batrachi to release the imprisoned primordials that began to threaten the existence that Selune had nurtured, and as a result Selune had just basically had enough and decided at that moment that she could no longer be a part of her "sister".
Note, this could be reflected in the destruction of the "ice moon Zotha" by Asgoroth the World Shaper, which hurled an ice moon at Toril, intent on destroying the world she couldnt claim as her own . At this time, the Sarrukh also noted a "changing of the Stars", and since Selune isn't just the moon, but also the stars, one can assume that this ice moon was possibly a portion of her. This hurling of the ice
Noting that at this same time the dragon myth talks of the destruction of a "crystal sun" that Zotha had wrought (not that WAS Zotha, but created by Zotha... so the crystal sun was created by Zotha, whom we are equating to Selune), and that Asgorath the World Shaper touches her "breaths" to this "crystal sun" shattering it, killing herself, and her blood dropping to the face of Toril to form dragons.
We ALSO have this myth of Shekinester courting both Jazirian and Ssharstrune following the fragmentation of the world serpent (and all 3 were fragments of the world serpent). Ssharstrune embodied "embodied the principles of curiosity, destruction, and possessiveness that had precipitated the World Serpent's fragmentation" . Shekinester (the Naga Queen) embodied "became the keeper of the knowledge and wisdom originally held by the World Serpent, preserved within the eternal flame that she guarded."
We then have that " The Naga Queen eventually chose Jazirian and became pregnant by him. Enraged by this decision, Ssharstrune attacked Shekinester, and she was forced to swallow him. In so doing, the Naga Queen took into herself the same destructive element that had fragmented the World Serpent in the first place. As a result, she acquired five guises: the Acquirer, the Empowerer, the Seeker, the Weaver, and the Preserver. This event was accompanied by a fivefold division in the naga race, forming the five major subraces now known as dark nagas, guardian nagas, iridescent nagas, spirit nagas, and water nagas.
Upon giving birth to Parrafaire, the Naga Prince, Shekinester expelled Ssharstrune's remains and instructed her offspring to hide away the destructive force that the corpse embodied forever, so that her fivefold aspect could not actually divide her into five separate goddesses. Parrafaire complied with her wishes, and now both he and his mother are venerated as guardians of the naga race."
IF Selune and Shar are also "fragments of the world serpent" in some form (which I truly think they are).... then perhaps they were Ssharstrune. They got upset when Shekinester (who it should be noted is called the Naga Queen but its also said that Ssharstrune swallowed HIM not her but HIM) was impregnated by Jazirian. So, in this instance, Shekinester and her/his eternal flame = Crystal Sun? Ssharstrune = Asgorath the World Shaper = Selune/Shar combined OR perhaps just Shar with her power over the weave still? Jazirian impregnated Shekinester ... and Asgoroth the world shaper/Ssharstrune "shatters" the crystal sun (Shekinester) with her breaths and is killed by the shards and is "swallowed" by Shekinester and herself becomes "fractured"/"shattered" in the swallowing. From all of this are birthed dragons but possibly Couatls as well, as well as the fracturing of Shekinester forming all new races of nagas.
Note: in the various histories, we equate Ubtao to Qotal, and we equate Qotal to Couatls as the "feathered serpent"... and many equate Qotal to Quetzalcoatl. Ubtao is a "Primordial" though who helped during the dawn cataclysm betraying the other primordials. Qotal's father is Kukul (and Kukulkan is a real world god also associated with feathered serpents). So, possibly Jazirian = Kukul. Might it also be that it was actually Jazirian and not Ubtao that betrayed the primordials. Man, now my head hurts.
SIDENOTE: I also think some of the EARLY gods of Unther are also "dragon deities" in some form as well (so not Ramman and Assuran and possibly Ishtar who came later, but Enlil/Anu (sky) , Girru (fire) , Marduk (wind, thunder, storms, rain) , Nanna-Sin (moon, but noted as having power over energy) , Utu (Sun) , and Tiamat ( ) ... and you will note that I'm not saying Gilgeam... and I'm also not saying Nergal, Ishtar, Ki, and Inanna). I will note that there's been discussion of Nanna-Sin coming back and this was as a ]b] dragon turtle [/b]. I believe Gilgeam to possibly have been born on Toril as a demigod and maybe this is why he had to be left behind. I also note that both Ramman was around at the same time as Gilgeam, but there's never any talk of him having manifestations like there is with Gilgeam. Also, as we have been discussing Enlil, it should be noted that Power and Pantheon calls Enlil also by the name Anu... and the pantheon is a mixture of the old deities and demigods Babylonian and Sumerian gods.. and that in that Anu is drawn with a shadow that looks like a dragon and is noted "he can summon any dragon type (except for the king and queen and any other types of dragon royalty". So, I think the god of the people of Djerad Thymar is actually Anu (which calls himself Enlil).
SIDEBAR Regarding Untheric Deities as well: Inanna is a "dead" deity of Unther who died in the Orcgate Wars who uses a "chariot pulled by seven flying lions". She is a war goddess AND a goddess of love. We also have Ishtar in the same pantheon as a goddess of (weather, river, harvest, and love), but we don't really know when she came about, and later she gives up her power to Isis. I suspect Ishtar came AFTER Inanna and Ki died in the orcgate wars. Possibly both she and Ramman came along to pick up the pieces (Ramman taking war from Inanna and Thunder, Rain, and Storms from Marduk.... Ishtar taking love from Inanna and harvest/weather/river from Ki).
Anyway, regarding Inanna... it might be interesting to equate her with the red knight... and correspondingly I'm also including a variation of the Norse Pantheon in which I include a goddess Sifya, the war mother, goddess of skill in battle.... so make it a mystery with all 3 of these gods possibly assumed by different groups to be an interloper of their own pantheons, or possibly the same goddess for all 3. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2017 : 17:31:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Second, the Seldarine's history makes little sense, and once again, we have a case of people doing little to no research before committing something to canon. There were NO ELVES in Abeir-Toril. Thats why there weren't any in Abeir (or, at least, there weren't supposed to be until someone else also didn't bother doing their homework). The FEY fled (Abeir-)Toril - presumably after the affair of the Black Diamond - and went to the Feywild (which is why I say it couldn't possibly have been named that before they got there). THEN they sent 'Elves' - something they 'created' (which is why I say they must be post-Dawn War 'mortals') to confront the dragons on Toril, BEFORE Tintageer was destroyed and those Elves - Gold & Silver ('High') arrived in Toril themselves. The original group of (Sylvan) Elves DID NOT worship the Seldarine. That would mean they probably never even heard of them, OR, they were still 'mortals' themselves at the time of the sylvan elf departure. When the the Elves from Tintageer arrived in Faerūn, they DID 'worship' (pay homage to?) Corellon & Co.
THUS, the Seldarine cannot be 'ancient fey powers'. They just can't be. Originally in my writings/musings (back when i was still a 'GH DM') I figured them for archtypes (in fact, thats even where I got that term - from a discussion on the difference between the 'local' demihuman pantheons, and the 'true' one in the Great Wheel/PS). But in light of their history - and FR's history, that just isn't possible. they may present themselves as such, and modern elves might believe it, but it just can't be true. Even the 'Fey Powers' themselves were not part of the 'Elder Gods' - they were archfey who ascended after receiving worship/adulation from 'their people' (the Immortals of Abeir-Toril).
Thus, the elves (both 'High' and 'low' {Sylvan/Green}) had to have been created sometime after-34,000 DR* and before -27,000 DR (7000 years), when the first elves were sent to Toril. It says it numerous canon sources that Corellon and (most of?) the other Seldarine ARE, in fact, 'Elves'. They could not have pre-existed their own race! In fact, when Corellon 'curses' Lolth, she wasn't a goddess yet - she was 'just a dark elf'. She had to work her way up through the ranks to demon-Queen all the way to full goddess.
It is true that the sylvan elves worshiped the gods of Faerie (this is why I say the Seldarine are immigrant deities), but the Seldarine can have easily existed before elves, or, at the very least, the sun/high elves. Even if the Seldarine weren't called "elven deities", that doesn't mean they didn't previously exist. They created the elves (at least the sun elves, since the sylvan elves already existed), and later became considered elven deities because they were worshiped by elves, their "children". It's true that, prior to her banishment, Lolth existed as a minor power, later gaining followers, but this still implies she was more than a "ascended mortal".
And this principle doesn't just apply to the elves, but to other races who have "racial pantheons", and some "human deities" as well, in which their deities existed before their followers, since all this was pre-ToT, and thus there wasn't the "worship dependency", though followers still provided power (which is likely one of the ways in which Lolth gained hers). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 06 Aug 2017 17:39:09 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2017 : 18:40:42
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What is below is mostly me organizing my thoughts. I am reviewing the 4th Edition creation/history with a critical eye. My goal is to figure out what can be "proven history" and what is simply "myth."
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Creation Mythologies
The creation mythology of 4th Edition, which seems to be ignored in 5th edition, is a combination of multiple mythologies. There are at least five that I can see: Netherese, Sarrukh, Dragonborn, Chultan, and Red Dragons. The author of this "unified" mythology is attempting to draw upon elements of each of these in order to try and create a pre-history explanation of events.
Canon: There does not appear to be ANY preserved history prior to the Days of Thunder. This begins around 35,000 DR. So, anything before this time is nothing but myth and speculation. Even events in this time period itself are highly speculative, as very little remains.
4th Edition Creation Mythology: The author here attempts to use the Netherese creation mythology along with the Dragonborn creation mythology. The author has Ao create the cosmos (all of them--all worlds, everywhere), and from that springs forth the Primordials. Shar and Selune arise from the Astral Sea. They do battle with the Primordials, other deities which are unnamed arise, and this goes on for an undetermined period of time.
4th Edition Shadow Epoch: The author here attempts to use Sarrukh, Chultan, and Dragonborn mythology here. Dendar the Night Serpent makes an appearance (it devours the sun), Ouroboros the World Serpent (Sarrukh deity) also makes an appearance, as well as Ubtao (Chultan deity). According to this--still very clearly mythology--the deities and primordials are still fighting. Dendar the Night Serpent, which appears to be primordial, devours the sun and plunges the world into darkness. Ouroboros the World Serpent then unites the deities against the Primordials and is aided by Ubtao who betrays the other Primordials. (Ubtao is described as a primordial here.) The Primordials are then defeated--either by driving them away, killing them, or imprisoning them.
4th Edition Days of Thunder, actual canon: We are now moving into post-history times. There are writings that are preserved from this period from the various Creator Races by the Elves. There is an actual historical event that takes place during the Days of Thunder. That event is the Tearfall, or the first Sundering, which led to the fall of the batrachi civilization and the appearance of dragons on Toril. This is the first actual "real" reference to the primordials outside of mythology, as it seems that the batrachi awaken or summon them in their war against the giants.
4th Edition Days of Thunder, the mythology: There are two points of myth employed at this time. The first is the discussion of the Tearfall itself. This involves Asgoroth the World Shaper. This is clearly relying upon Red Dragon creation mythology. We actually have this mythology written out and broken down for us narratively.
There is another myth here as well, which is the claim that this is when Ao "twinned" the worlds--dividing Toril and Abeir. This may or may not also draw upon Dragonborn mythology, but I think it is more likely conjecture by the author. It is unlikely neither Abeir nor Toril knew about each other until after the Spellplague.
Actual Canon Historical Facts: Here are the things that I think we can say beyond a shadow of a doubt are canon.
- Ao existed before or shortly after the creation of Abeir-Toril.
- Toril and Abeir were divided at some point by Ao BEFORE or DURING the Tearfall, the first Sundering.
- Primordials existed on Abeir-Toril sometime after creation.
- Sea Dwelling creatures were the first sentient races on Toril and perhaps built the first empires under the waves.
- The aforementioned Sea Dwelling creatures were wiped out due to a massive Ice Age.
- The stuff that we know from previous editions about the Creator Races.
- This includes the World Serpent as one of the oldest deities (primordial?) of the setting. Certainly, the oldest "named" deity in terms of proven historical existence. (The Shar and Selune stuff is simply mythology.)
- The Tearfall happened and dragons appeared shortly afterward on Toril. Abeir had, by this point, been separated from Toril.
- Canon advances largely as outlined in the Grand History of the Realms.
This is all that can be proven in terms of canon history. Everything else is mythology and speculation. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2017 : 19:02:08
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Certain things about creation are definitely fact, and some are more interpretative, but I want to point out, that, while this may seem far-fetched, certain "myths", are used and presented in the Realms over and over again. Even if it is only what certain races "believe", the fact that it is "canon myth", if you will, suggests some truth to the myth. I realize this is not a necessarily solid argument, but to me, at least within the context of the setting, "beliefs" in the Realms stem from some fact, whether it is the whole truth, or only part of it, especially if the "myth" is presented multiple times (like the elves being born from Corellon's blood, just as an example). One could chalk it up to "what people believe" (and they likely presented it this way to give gamers a choice in whether or not they wanted to use said myths), but to me at least, whether something is presented as "belief" or as hardcore fact, there is room for fact within the myth. Belief and fact aren't so far apart in the Realms. Beliefs come from the basis of the fact, if that makes any sense.
Gagh, it makes sense in my head, but I am having trouble actually explaining what I'm getting at LOL. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2017 : 19:54:25
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This is my speculation based on the lore. This is an attempt to avoid mythology all together.
- Abeir-Toril was once a single world. It's creation and history is lost to time, but it was a world dominated by Primordials, Aberrants, and Dragons. The Weave was a sentient construct administrated by a powerful primordial known as the World Serpent.
- Gold Elves from Tintageer discover Abeir-Toril and find a world described above. Magic on this world functions similar to how it does on Toril before the fall of Netheril. Another major difference is that Abeir-Toril has a much stronger connection to the Feywild, allowing people to more easily pass between the two.
- The Gold Elves began losing the war. In typical Elven fashion, they decided to use High Magic to turn the tables in their favor. Their goal was to rewrite history. In the new history of the world the Primordials would be asleep or imprisoned, the Aberrants would largely be imprisoned or asleep beneath the seas, and the Dragons would largely be imprisoned in eggs upon the smallest of the twin moons of the planet.
- Like all insanely powerful High Magic rituals, this one goes badly. The Elves begin to lose control of their magic, threatening to rip apart time, space, and reality itself. Only the intervention of Ao and the Elven deities preserve existence. Ao "twins the worlds" creating Abeir and Toril. The Elven deities create a focal anchor point for the Elven High Magic, the island of Evermeet. Ao crafts the Tablets of Fate, which are basically the cosmic rules of Realmspace--one of the important aspects of those rules keeps Toril and Abeir separate.
- The history of the world is rewritten. The Feywild that touches Abeir-Toril has its history rewritten, as does Tintageer, Toril, and Abeir.
- On Abeir history is largely the same, however, some of the primordials end up trapped on Toril--including the World Serpent. This means that magic does not function as it does on Toril. The Elves also never arrive on Abeir.
- On Toril history is radically different, and it is closer to what the Gold Elves desired. The dragons are imprisoned in their eggs on the smallest moon. The aberrant beings were the first to rise on Toril but were largely wiped out by an ice age, they are now a shadow of their former selves--their great undersea empires long destroyed and forgotten. The primordials never rise to prominence, those that are trapped on Toril are slumbering or imprisoned.
- Tintageer and the Feywild's histories are largely unaffected... kinda. The big difference for the Feywild is that it is no longer as easy to pass from Toril or Abeir into the Feywild as once was possible.
- After the Great Ice Age which wipes out the Aberrant Undersea Empires, the Creator Races arise during the Days of Thunder. One of the first races to gain power and prominence is the Sarrukh. They discover the primordial World Serpent, free it from its imprisonment, and it ascends to divinity due to their worship. The Weave is part of it, and then later becomes part of one of its fragments--Shekinester the Naga Queen.
- Another Creator Race that arose to prominence was the Batrachi. They also worshiped sleeping/imprisoned Primordials, and when they got into a war against the Giants they decided to awaken/free said Primordials from their slumber/imprisonment. This led to the Tearfall and the rise of the Dragons on Toril.
- The Fey (from the Feywild) bring over the Green Elves to help do battle against the Dragons.
- The magic from the Elven Sundering is what is -CAUSING- the destruction of Tintageer. The Gold Elves appear on Toril to find the world that they sought to originally create, unfortunately unknowingly it was at the expense of their own. Everything unfolds as described in canon. The Elves in this timeline still must perform the ritual which led to the chaos, but this time they are doing it to create Evermeet. Everything unfolds as described, but the destruction is localized to Toril itself and not Abeir. This is why both planets are geographically different.
- Everything unfolds as described in canon.
- The early Netherese discover Naga ruins and begin researching it for magic. They discover Naga lore relating to Shekinester the Naga Queen, Parrafaire the Naga Prince, Jazirian and Ssharstrune. They misinterpret this lore. They confuse Shekinester with Ssharstrune, and misinterpret the name as well, believing the deity to be called Sharselune. A cult devoted to Sharselune (really Shekinester) develops among the Netherese.
- A schism takes place within the cult of Sharselune, leading to the creation of the cults of Shar, Selune, and Mystryl. The deity of Shekinester divides accordingly. Mystryl becomes the Weave aspect which is linked way back to the primordial World Serpent.
- Canon continues to develop as described.
- The Time of Troubles happens. Ao angerly destroys the Tablets of Fate, actually liberating the deities to an insane degree. This causes the barriers between Abeir and Toril to begin to move closer and closer.
- Cyric attempts to kill Mystra, causing the Spellplague. This causes Abeir and Toril to briefly overlap in some places, leading to the events described in canon.
- The world is being torn apart by deific conflicts and chaos. Ao decides to recraft the Tablets of Fate. The events of the final Sundering take place as described in canon. The worlds of Abeir and Toril are healed from much of their damage, the laws for deities are rewritten. Moving forward post-Sunderings, deities can exist in a pantheon with more than one portfolio. Things are as Ao threatened during the Time of Troubles, mortal beliefs have a much higher degree of influence over the deities. The deities are also barred from direct intervention into the world. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2017 : 20:09:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
AfterthoughtIn fact, I am only now starting to think that may resolve quite a few issues (keeping the Dawn War and Realmspace's 'Sundering' separate).
In fact, in canon, those two events are separated. The Dawn War happened way back in time. And it ended in the Shadow Epoch (and that's eons before the Days of Thunder, IIRC). The gods won, thanks to a few rogue primordials who helped them (Ubtao, Bristia Pel, and others). The gods sealed the primordials in their extra-dimensional prisons (and some still are sealed there), except those who helped, and those who didn't helped but also didn't oppose the gods (such as Chan and other good archomentals).
Then, in the Days of Thunder, some foolish batrachi were losing a war against some titans, and said "Hey, why we wouldn't call some of those primordials the gods sealed in this extra-dimensional prison for having tried to destroy the multiverse before, to help us? What's the worst that can happen?"
And then is when the Original Sundering of Abeir-Toril happens.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
The creation mythology of 4th Edition, which seems to be ignored in 5th edition, is a combination of multiple mythologies. There are at least five that I can see: Netherese, Sarrukh, Dragonborn, Chultan, and Red Dragons. The author of this "unified" mythology is attempting to draw upon elements of each of these in order to try and create a pre-history explanation of events.
The SCAG, you may say. The SCAG ignored much of 4e. But then, you have the post-Sundering novels (all of them released in 5e's time-frame), such as The Devil You Know, Death Masks and Hero... and those novels acknowledges 4e lore (some even expand on it).
I find this dichotomy bugging, really. But I get that this approach was for marketing purposes (to recover all of those "tr-8rs" who left D&D because of 4e).
Now, the noobster question here, but... Wasn't the Weave something created after Karsus' Folly? I'm sure I've read there was no Weave before that (not the Weave as we currently know it, I mean). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 06 Aug 2017 20:30:32 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2017 : 20:28:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
This is my speculation based on the lore. This is an attempt to avoid mythology all together.
- Abeir-Toril was once a single world. It's creation and history is lost to time, but it was a world dominated by Primordials, Aberrants, and Dragons. The Weave was a sentient construct administrated by a powerful primordial known as the World Serpent.
- Gold Elves from Tintageer discover Abeir-Toril and find a world described above. Magic on this world functions similar to how it does on Toril before the fall of Netheril. Another major difference is that Abeir-Toril has a much stronger connection to the Feywild, allowing people to more easily pass between the two.
- The Gold Elves began losing the war. In typical Elven fashion, they decided to use High Magic to turn the tables in their favor. Their goal was to rewrite history. In the new history of the world the Primordials would be asleep or imprisoned, the Aberrants would largely be imprisoned or asleep beneath the seas, and the Dragons would largely be imprisoned in eggs upon the smallest of the twin moons of the planet.
- Like all insanely powerful High Magic rituals, this one goes badly. The Elves begin to lose control of their magic, threatening to rip apart time, space, and reality itself. Only the intervention of Ao and the Elven deities preserve existence. Ao "twins the worlds" creating Abeir and Toril. The Elven deities create a focal anchor point for the Elven High Magic, the island of Evermeet. Ao crafts the Tablets of Fate, which are basically the cosmic rules of Realmspace--one of the important aspects of those rules keeps Toril and Abeir separate.
- The history of the world is rewritten. The Feywild that touches Abeir-Toril has its history rewritten, as does Tintageer, Toril, and Abeir.
- On Abeir history is largely the same, however, some of the primordials end up trapped on Toril--including the World Serpent. This means that magic does not function as it does on Toril. The Elves also never arrive on Abeir.
- On Toril history is radically different, and it is closer to what the Gold Elves desired. The dragons are imprisoned in their eggs on the smallest moon. The aberrant beings were the first to rise on Toril but were largely wiped out by an ice age, they are now a shadow of their former selves--their great undersea empires long destroyed and forgotten. The primordials never rise to prominence, those that are trapped on Toril are slumbering or imprisoned.
- Tintageer and the Feywild's histories are largely unaffected... kinda. The big difference for the Feywild is that it is no longer as easy to pass from Toril or Abeir into the Feywild as once was possible.
- After the Great Ice Age which wipes out the Aberrant Undersea Empires, the Creator Races arise during the Days of Thunder. One of the first races to gain power and prominence is the Sarrukh. They discover the primordial World Serpent, free it from its imprisonment, and it ascends to divinity due to their worship. The Weave is part of it, and then later becomes part of one of its fragments--Shekinester the Naga Queen.
- Another Creator Race that arose to prominence was the Batrachi. They also worshiped sleeping/imprisoned Primordials, and when they got into a war against the Giants they decided to awaken/free said Primordials from their slumber/imprisonment. This led to the Tearfall and the rise of the Dragons on Toril.
- The Fey (from the Feywild) bring over the Green Elves to help do battle against the Dragons.
- The magic from the Elven Sundering is what is -CAUSING- the destruction of Tintageer. The Gold Elves appear on Toril to find the world that they sought to originally create, unfortunately unknowingly it was at the expense of their own. Everything unfolds as described in canon. The Elves in this timeline still must perform the ritual which led to the chaos, but this time they are doing it to create Evermeet. Everything unfolds as described, but the destruction is localized to Toril itself and not Abeir. This is why both planets are geographically different.
Let me see if I understand what you're saying (correct me if I'm wrong). The timeline unfolds to the point where the elves do their thang, the "ripples" of the magic going forward and backward in time, thus rewriting history, including that of the elves. The timeline we see today is the rewritten timeline (the canon timeline, if you will), so when the time again comes for the elves to perform the ritual, they create Evermeet, because history was rewritten, so it was as if Evermeet has "always been" (as mentioned earlier). The ripples from the first timeline (when the ritual was first performed) destroy Tintageer, forcing the elves in this current timeline to move to Toril, where they perform the ritual a second time, thus successfully creating Evermeet (though the elven deities interfered here, as well, preventing even more destruction than what the creation of Evermeet already caused).
The implications here would be that, because the elven sundering in the current timeline (in which Evermeet was created), also went "forward and backward in time", there are now multiple ripples passing forward and backward. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2017 : 22:14:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
This is my speculation based on the lore. This is an attempt to avoid mythology all together.
- Abeir-Toril was once a single world. It's creation and history is lost to time, but it was a world dominated by Primordials, Aberrants, and Dragons. The Weave was a sentient construct administrated by a powerful primordial known as the World Serpent.
- Gold Elves from Tintageer discover Abeir-Toril and find a world described above. Magic on this world functions similar to how it does on Toril before the fall of Netheril. Another major difference is that Abeir-Toril has a much stronger connection to the Feywild, allowing people to more easily pass between the two.
- The Gold Elves began losing the war. In typical Elven fashion, they decided to use High Magic to turn the tables in their favor. Their goal was to rewrite history. In the new history of the world the Primordials would be asleep or imprisoned, the Aberrants would largely be imprisoned or asleep beneath the seas, and the Dragons would largely be imprisoned in eggs upon the smallest of the twin moons of the planet.
- Like all insanely powerful High Magic rituals, this one goes badly. The Elves begin to lose control of their magic, threatening to rip apart time, space, and reality itself. Only the intervention of Ao and the Elven deities preserve existence. Ao "twins the worlds" creating Abeir and Toril. The Elven deities create a focal anchor point for the Elven High Magic, the island of Evermeet. Ao crafts the Tablets of Fate, which are basically the cosmic rules of Realmspace--one of the important aspects of those rules keeps Toril and Abeir separate.
- The history of the world is rewritten. The Feywild that touches Abeir-Toril has its history rewritten, as does Tintageer, Toril, and Abeir.
- On Abeir history is largely the same, however, some of the primordials end up trapped on Toril--including the World Serpent. This means that magic does not function as it does on Toril. The Elves also never arrive on Abeir.
- On Toril history is radically different, and it is closer to what the Gold Elves desired. The dragons are imprisoned in their eggs on the smallest moon. The aberrant beings were the first to rise on Toril but were largely wiped out by an ice age, they are now a shadow of their former selves--their great undersea empires long destroyed and forgotten. The primordials never rise to prominence, those that are trapped on Toril are slumbering or imprisoned.
- Tintageer and the Feywild's histories are largely unaffected... kinda. The big difference for the Feywild is that it is no longer as easy to pass from Toril or Abeir into the Feywild as once was possible.
- After the Great Ice Age which wipes out the Aberrant Undersea Empires, the Creator Races arise during the Days of Thunder. One of the first races to gain power and prominence is the Sarrukh. They discover the primordial World Serpent, free it from its imprisonment, and it ascends to divinity due to their worship. The Weave is part of it, and then later becomes part of one of its fragments--Shekinester the Naga Queen.
- Another Creator Race that arose to prominence was the Batrachi. They also worshiped sleeping/imprisoned Primordials, and when they got into a war against the Giants they decided to awaken/free said Primordials from their slumber/imprisonment. This led to the Tearfall and the rise of the Dragons on Toril.
- The Fey (from the Feywild) bring over the Green Elves to help do battle against the Dragons.
- The magic from the Elven Sundering is what is -CAUSING- the destruction of Tintageer. The Gold Elves appear on Toril to find the world that they sought to originally create, unfortunately unknowingly it was at the expense of their own. Everything unfolds as described in canon. The Elves in this timeline still must perform the ritual which led to the chaos, but this time they are doing it to create Evermeet. Everything unfolds as described, but the destruction is localized to Toril itself and not Abeir. This is why both planets are geographically different.
- Everything unfolds as described in canon.
- The early Netherese discover Naga ruins and begin researching it for magic. They discover Naga lore relating to Shekinester the Naga Queen, Parrafaire the Naga Prince, Jazirian and Ssharstrune. They misinterpret this lore. They confuse Shekinester with Ssharstrune, and misinterpret the name as well, believing the deity to be called Sharselune. A cult devoted to Sharselune (really Shekinester) develops among the Netherese.
- A schism takes place within the cult of Sharselune, leading to the creation of the cults of Shar, Selune, and Mystryl. The deity of Shekinester divides accordingly. Mystryl becomes the Weave aspect which is linked way back to the primordial World Serpent.
- Canon continues to develop as described.
- The Time of Troubles happens. Ao angerly destroys the Tablets of Fate, actually liberating the deities to an insane degree. This causes the barriers between Abeir and Toril to begin to move closer and closer.
- Cyric attempts to kill Mystra, causing the Spellplague. This causes Abeir and Toril to briefly overlap in some places, leading to the events described in canon.
- The world is being torn apart by deific conflicts and chaos. Ao decides to recraft the Tablets of Fate. The events of the final Sundering take place as described in canon. The worlds of Abeir and Toril are healed from much of their damage, the laws for deities are rewritten. Moving forward post-Sunderings, deities can exist in a pantheon with more than one portfolio. Things are as Ao threatened during the Time of Troubles, mortal beliefs have a much higher degree of influence over the deities. The deities are also barred from direct intervention into the world.
I know you're trying to just get to the facts, but just want to throw out these that come from the myths but are a conjecture. Earlier I was trying to match too much, and your writing things out helped me gather my wits.
One of the things as well is that there possibly were 3 "satellites" in orbit around Toril at that time. One being a moon of earth. One being a moon of water/ice (Zotha?). One being a "crystal sun" or some kind of burning gem? It kind of makes me wonder if there wasn't a 4th moon somehow made of air that people just couldn't see... because it was made of air.
Why do I say that there was a "moon" made of fire? Because when the "crystal sun" was destroyed, there wasn't some ice age like there had been a few thousand years prior. In fact, maybe the prior ice age was because the original sun had been clouded away by darkness, so what they did was put a localized sun in orbit to keep things alive. So, what this would mean is that when this smaller crystal sun is destroyed at the time of the Tearfall likely the world got cooled off and this started the trend for other races like mammals that aren't cold blooded to take off.
Granted absolutely all conjecture. It gets more confusing when you start asking who is who and why.
After reading all the myths, I do believe it would be good to have Shekinester be the "crystal sun" OR the guardian of the "crystal sun". The whole "she guarded an eternal flame that contained the knowledge and wisdom of the world serpent" fit this.
Then we have both Ssharstrune who attacks Shekinester (guardian of the eternal flame) and Asgoroth the World Shaper who attacks "the crystal sun". In both instances, the "thing attacked" is shattered/fragmented into parts of some sort, but it also kills the attacker at the same time. In both instances, a new race or races are born of this death as well. In the Ssharstrune/Shekinester story its new serpentine races of nagas that are born. In the Asgoroth/Crystal Sun story, its dragons that are born (as well as possibly Bahamut).
Then we also have another story involving Asgorath the world shaper (minor spelling change, but I think we can assume the same entity) that would appear to be at the same time. However, it possibly happens prior to Asgorath getting to the crystal sun? It would appear that she gathers the moon made of ice and hurls it at Toril. This is known as the Tearfall and presumably the ice melting creates much of the inner sea. Around this time, dragon eggs fall. Now whether these eggs were on the ice moon... created from the blood of Asgoroth... or somehow stored in the crystal sun that shattered and the mixing of the sun's fire and draconic blood created red dragon eggs.... dunno
Hmmmm, skip forward in time... this may get wonky, so work with me and improve this.... There weren't in theory any tears of Selune yet. Why do I say this? Because two sources have the tears of Selune showing up in "relatively" recent times (though it could be incorrect data, much as we make bad conclusions).
The first is this, from GHotR entry of -349: Kisonraathiisar's slow demise
In the desperate hope that another of Asgoraths children might chance upon my remains and seek what I have found, I now reveal my most precious piece of knowledge: The Hills of the Seven Lost Gods are not what they first seem. Each of the seven rings of standing stones dates back to the last days of the Reign of Dragons, when the elder wyrms sought to reverse what the elves had wrought. My ancestors
tried to focus the Weave into a weapon of unparalleled might that could shatter the Drifting Stars into clouds of rubble in the heavens above. But they scored only a glancing blow on the moon that circles our world, leaving only a string of tears and an inland sea to mark their failure. Now reason is once again undone by rage, and all that dragons have wrought crumbles slowly into dust.
Then there's this entry from Realmspace (which I know, some don't consider canon). I also know that the histories in the Shou Lung libraries should be taken with a grain of salt. Then lord only knows Leira's involvement with the moon. However, here's what's said.
The Tears of Selune one day just appeared, apparently from nowhere. The different cultures of Toril have their own versions of what happened.
Written in the Shou Lung scrolls of history, over 4,800 years back (Phillips note roughly ~ -3500 DR'ish and technically before Shou Lung existed according to later lore... so take date with a grain of salt... or assume the emperor mentioned was the emperor of Imaskar... and also note elven legends help to corroborate the date) an astronomer looking up toward Selune, mapping its surface, reported seeing many objects suddenly "pop" into existence. Tremendous tidal waves of all of Toril's oceans commenced.
Several hours later, the same astronomer, Tu Pi Chei, reported his findings to the emperor's men. The emperor, awakened from his sleep, was very interested in this matter, and went out the next night to study the phenomenon with Tu Pi. After seeing that, indeed, a cluster of lights had appeared to the right of the moon, he had the 20 best astrologers in the country deduce its meaning.
Nearly all of the predictions involved Shou Lung's expansion inland, while a few deduced that there was to be a death in the emperor's family, and in one reported divination, the emperor himself was to become pregnant. The latter astrologer was soon put to death.
Indeed, Shou Lung did begin expansion inland shortly thereafter, and today, it is one of the largest countries in Toril. The emperor's wife also died during childbirth later that year.
The elven nation of Evermeet documented the same phenomenon about the same time as the Shou Lung, but their reaction was quite different, viewing the astronomical phenomenon as a sign from their gds. The gods, being pleased with their continued magical research and progression in their arts, gave them this sign as a gift. To them, the Tears of Selune is a source of pride.
skip some ahead, as this next part is interesting when considering a crystal sun in orbit
Most human legends tell of a time when the goddess Selune fell in love with a handsome warrior who turned out to be a shape changing monster bent on conquest and destruction. Using her very life essence, she created a gem that would contain the warrior and his minions until the end of time. The tears she cried were spilled, and now lie near the moon that is her namesake.
SOOOOOO, long winded as that was. What can we take from it.
1) It would appear that the Tears of Selune just popped into being say around -3500 DR.
2) Selune entrapped some great shape changing monster bent on conquest and destruction (Primordial?) in a gem in the sky (crystal sun filled with fiery red dragon eggs?). Was Shekinester guarding this "eternal flame"?
3) In the "final days of the Reign of Dragons" dragons created "something" near westgate that shot "some power" at presumably the King Killer Star. But they missed. It hit something else (invisible air moon that they didn't know was there, and when it broke apart it became visible and/or solidified somehow? glancing blow on the actual moon? the place where once the crystal sun existed causing its "shards" to reappear somehow?) and suddenly asteroids appeared. Presumably one of these "tears" fell to earth forming the dragon sea/moonsea region.
4) What else happened around -3500 DR? the Nether scrolls or Golden Skins of the World Serpent were discovered by the Netherese and they just abandon the teachings of the elves. Also, the couatl population starts decreasing precipitously for reasons unknown.
General thought here, what was that part about Jazirian birthing Parrafaire on Shekinester the naga queen. Then Parrafaire is told to take the remains of Ssharstrune and hide them somewhere. If Ssharstrune IS an embodiment of the World Serpent... could the Nether Scrolls have been her skin? Did Parrafaire somehow hide them in Abeir, and they transferred back to Toril. Might the Sarrukh lich called the Terraseer somehow be involved, because he also appears around this time (basically 101 years prior).
5) Total conjecture here. This instance that happened around -3500 DR was another crossover between Abeir and Toril. The tears came from Abeir and were some kind of remant of the crystal sun that transferred to Abeir? The couatl population actually goes to Abeir? Somehow the dragons accidentally kicked off some kind of crossover between Abeir and Toril? Weird idea.... is this when "Osse" appeared? Also, why did the Netherese totally abandon elven magic? Why did the elves think that this was a reward for their magic? Is it because standard magic quit working temporarily and only Elven High Magic or magic using the rules found in the Nether Scrolls worked?
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 06 Aug 2017 22:32:46 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2017 : 22:21:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
The creation mythology of 4th Edition, which seems to be ignored in 5th edition, is a combination of multiple mythologies. There are at least five that I can see: Netherese, Sarrukh, Dragonborn, Chultan, and Red Dragons. The author of this "unified" mythology is attempting to draw upon elements of each of these in order to try and create a pre-history explanation of events.
The SCAG, you may say. The SCAG ignored much of 4e. But then, you have the post-Sundering novels (all of them released in 5e's time-frame), such as The Devil You Know, Death Masks and Hero... and those novels acknowledges 4e lore (some even expand on it).
I find this dichotomy bugging, really.
Yeah, the SCAG basically ignores all of the 4th Edition stuff. It mentions primordials in passing only three times in the entire book, and two of those are in the entry about the Dragonborn, and the final one is in an entry about sorcerers.
It would have been preferable had they expanded and clarified the 4th edition lore rather than ignoring it entirely. WotC obviously did not retcon it, as you point out, but ignoring it makes it difficult to figure stuff out--especially since they made changes that seem to be inconsistent with previously established 4th Edition lore.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Now, the noobster question here, but... Wasn't the Weave something created after Karsus' Folly? I'm sure I've read there was no Weave before that (not the Weave as we currently know it, I mean).
No, as best we can know the Weave has always existed on Toril. The canon explanation for the Weave is the War of Light and Darkness--the Shar and Selune creation mythology. The problem with that is that Shar and Selune are Netherese deities and that this is a Netherese myth. There is zero evidence to support their existence before Netheril. This fact leads to the question, 'Where does the Weave come from?' We know of the intimate link the Weave has with Mystra, as this is a fact established by canon. Thus, this intimate link requires something to stretch backward in time to some point in the beginning.
That is the reason I came up with the World Serpent connection. The canon establishes that the World Serpent teaches the Sarrukh magic. The Nether Scrolls are literally written on its skin, and the proper name for them is the 'Golden Skins of the World Serpent.' They seem to describe how magic works in the Realms--at least in so far as it relates to the Weave. That is the reason I posit a connection between the World Serpent and the Weave. It is also canon that the World Serpent fragmented, and some of the deities it fragmented into were Shekinester the Naga Queen and Ssharstrune. Shekinester the Naga Queen was clearly a deity linked heavily with magic, as is the entire Naga race. Thus, if the World Serpent is fragmenting, it makes sense that the Weave fragment would go to Shekinester. Then we have in canon a fallen Naga empire literally right next to Netheril, including a nearby temple of Ssharstrune. So it is not inconceivable that the Nethersese could have--especially as they are learning to use magic--come across Naga ruins and artifacts, learned some corrupted history, and confused Ssharstrune for Shekinester. Ssharstrune also sounds a lot like "Sharselune" and according to the Netherese myth, Shar and Selune used to be a two-faced goddess. They may have perceived Sharselune with two faces because they were confusing the lore of Ssharstrune and Shekinester (two different deities). A schism happens within the cult of Sharselune, and we end up with two primary deities: Shar and Selune as well as a third, which would be Mystryl. This is not weird because the World Serpent divides like this--a fear present in the lore of Shekinester. Mystryl becomes the embodiment of the Weave on Toril. Then Karsus attempts his magical ritual to take the power of the Weave from her, and she responds by suiciding. This temporarily (very briefly) stops the Weave from functioning, causing the floating Enclaves to crash to the ground, killing Karsus as well... and then a new goddess named Mystra arises with control over the Weave. She dies during the Time of Troubles at the hands of Helm, and then the Weave passes to the mortal Midnight who becomes the new Mystra. Mystra is again slain in the Year of Blue Fire, but some remnants of her still remain, which regather strength, and she eventually re-emerges right before the third Sundering. This current incarnation of Mystra seems to be drawing on the memories or essences of her previous incarnations prior to Midnight.
Magic and the Weave changed in the aftermath of Karsus's Folly. Mystra disallowed higher powered magic from being cast so easily. Specifically, she disallowed the use of Heavy Magic. The only object in existence capable of allowing that, as far as I know, is the Heart of Karsus himself. If I recall correctly, its last known location was among the shades of Returned Netheril.
The Shadow Weave also has a number of theories behind it, but the most likely one is that Shar was able to seize control over part of the Weave during the Fall of Karsus. (There is speculation that she may have even played a role in him going down the path that he did and things unraveling.) If one imagines the Weave like a tapestry laid across reality, it would comprise two parts: the individual threads as well as the spaces between the threads. The Weave would have represented the threads while the Shadow Weave would have represented the negative space between those threads, which is why when the two Weaves came into contact with one another bad things always happened. (Kinda like Matter and Anti-Matter.) Shar therefore, did not create the Shadow Weave, but rather seized control over part of it as Mystryl became Mystra. During the events of the Spellplague, Shar attempted to seize control of the entire Weave, but failed and lost control over the Shadow Weave as well. Thus, the entire Weave once again belongs to Mystra.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Let me see if I understand what you're saying (correct me if I'm wrong). The timeline unfolds to the point where the elves do their thang, the "ripples" of the magic going forward and backward in time, thus rewriting history, including that of the elves.
Yes, exactly. They litterally rewrote history. Although, what they were going for was more along the lines of, 'All the Primordials, Aberrant, and Dragons are no longer a threat to us. We arrive on the world and are able to settle here!' They were only trying to rewrite their history up to that point--to the point that they arrived on Abeir-Toril. Of course, as we know, things went wrong.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
The timeline we see today is the rewritten timeline (the canon timeline, if you will), so when the time again comes for the elves to perform the ritual, they create Evermeet, because history was rewritten, so it was as if Evermeet has "always been" (as mentioned earlier).
Yes, exactly. The Elven Sundering in the canon (the one that creates Evermeet) is where the two timelines intersected. So, like, if you could see both timelines playing out side by side, you would see the Elves in the original world of Abeir-Toril performing the Sundering at the same time you would see the Elves of Toril performing the Sundering. It is just that in THIS timeline (the one that was created with Ao and the Elven deities), they created Evermeet and only did some minor rewriting of history.
I basically see it as Ao and the Elven deities attempting to contain the effects of the Elven High Magic. It's not just the Elven High Magic rewriting history, it's the Elven deities and Ao working together to contain the damage of their magic.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
The ripples from the first timeline (when the ritual was first performed) destroy Tintageer, forcing the elves in this current timeline to move to Toril...
Yes, it is basically a backlash effect of the magic going awry. We do not know what caused the destruction of Tintageer, only that it was being destroyed and the Sun Elves had to flee. The Sundering in the first timeline was intended only to rewrite history up to the point that the Sun Elves returned to Abeir-Toril, and so they would have arrived on Toril at the same point in the timeline that they arrived on Abeir-Toril in the original timeline. It's just that in the second timeline they are arriving because Tintageer is being destroyed.
...and what is happening to Tintageer? I think it might be possible that the Elven deities are basically copying it or moving it over to Toril. Here is how it is described according to Grand History of the Realms, pg. 8: "Fleeing the destruction of the island kingdom of Tintageer on their home world of Faerie, a small circle of gold elves led by the young prince Durothil cast a divination to find their new home--on the world of Toril--and then create a portal leading there." Tintageer is an "island kingdom" and Evermeet is also an "island kingdom." The Elven deities may have simply been moving Tintageer over to Toril so that it was "always there" as in the current canon timeline. This led to the destruction of Tintageer on Faerie, causing the Elves to need to flee to Toril in the first place.
It's kinda confusing, but it kinda makes sense when you stop to think about it, lol.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
...where they perform the ritual a second time, thus successfully creating Evermeet (though the elven deities interfered here, as well, preventing even more destruction than what the creation of Evermeet already caused).
Yeah, except in the "current" timeline they only performed the Sundering once, lol. Also the Elven deities interfered in the past, not in the present, because Evermeet had always existed. This means that the Elven deities had to have created Evermeet IN THE PAST (timeline wise) before the ritual was actually cast.
Of course, if you go by the picture I am trying to paint, it makes sense (from the perspective of Ao and the Elven deities). They *DID* create Evermeet in the past, because the first Sundering (which happened in the Abeir-Toril timeline) caused them to do it. As a result, when the time streams "crossed" again in the new timeline (the canon one that we see) the Elven deities essentially make it so that Evermeet serves as an anchor for their magic, and localize the damage it causes to Toril. In other words, the damage is much, much, much less severe in the canon timeline than it would have been in the original had Ao and the Elven deities not intervened.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
The implications here would be that, because the elven sundering in the current timeline (in which Evermeet was created), also went "forward and backward in time", there are now multiple ripples passing forward and backward.
Yeah. Basically, certain things had to happen in the Torillian timeline due to the Elven High Magic. The Elves had to arrive from Tintageer and they had to perform the Sundering ritual again (but only once from their perspective). It's just that in the new (canon) timeline the reason for performing the ritual and the outcomes are different. The Elves (from the Abeir-Toril timeline) also got their wish--Toril looks nothing like Abeir, it is not ruled by Aberrants, Dragons, or Primordials. It allowed them the opportunity to build kingdoms and empires. The Elves still had to fight against the dragons in this timeline, but they won (Dracorage Mythal, as an example). |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2017 : 22:41:32
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| Lol well what I meant by "second time" was when they did it on the rewritten timeline (thus creating Evermeet), The first time was when they rewrote history in the first place (on Abeir-Toril). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2017 : 23:01:04
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| Hmmm, thinking about the idea of Ssharstrune's remains being hidden away by Parrafaire made me think about the inner lining of the crystal sphere, which has these portals to the plane of radiance in it (these would be the "stars" that twinkle in the night that Selune has control of)... and all these huge glyphs of every known spell that ever existed that if read are cast with 100 times the power of the spell normally. IF these remains of Ssharstrune were somehow something to do with Shar, Mystra and Selune.... could this lining of the crystal sphere somehow be the remains of Ssharstrune? Not seeing the way exactly to work it, but... there's some kind of nugget there. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2017 : 23:03:15
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Why do I say that there was a "moon" made of fire? Because when the "crystal sun" was destroyed, there wasn't some ice age like there had been a few thousand years prior. In fact, maybe the prior ice age was because the original sun had been clouded away by darkness, so what they did was put a localized sun in orbit to keep things alive. So, what this would mean is that when this smaller crystal sun is destroyed at the time of the Tearfall likely the world got cooled off and this started the trend for other races like mammals that aren't cold blooded to take off.
One of the main points in the Tearfall entry in the Draconomicon from 2e, is that the Tearfall was also known by other names, one of such being "the Seven-Turn Winter".
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Now whether these eggs were on the ice moon... created from the blood of Asgoroth... or somehow stored in the crystal sun that shattered and the mixing of the sun's fire and draconic blood created red dragon eggs.... dunno
There is a canon answer for this: the eggs are in orbit. We know this because in 1374 DR another, less violent rain of dragon eggs fell across Toril.
From Dragons of Faerūn, p.10:
In the Year of Lightning Storms (1374 DR) Faerūn was beset by great lightning strikes the length and breadth of the continent. At least some of those lightning strikes marked the impact points of an unusual year-long rain of meteors. In a series of visions, Bahamut and Tiamat instructed their respective followers to seek out such sites, for each contained some form of draconic egg within. In the months that followed, the Church of Tiamat recovered more than half of the eggs of the latest Tearfall and brought them back to the Altar of Scales in Unthalass in preparation for the looming war. The rest were lost, hatched on their own, or recovered by followers of Bahamut.
I believe those eggs were created by blood. Blood of Io/Asgorath/Asgoroth/Siberys...
Something that we need to take into account for either current canon and candlekanon: there is a new generation of dragon "teens" on Toril... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 06 Aug 2017 23:21:39 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2017 : 23:26:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Why do I say that there was a "moon" made of fire? Because when the "crystal sun" was destroyed, there wasn't some ice age like there had been a few thousand years prior. In fact, maybe the prior ice age was because the original sun had been clouded away by darkness, so what they did was put a localized sun in orbit to keep things alive. So, what this would mean is that when this smaller crystal sun is destroyed at the time of the Tearfall likely the world got cooled off and this started the trend for other races like mammals that aren't cold blooded to take off.
One of the main points in the Tearfall entry in the Draconomicon from 2e, is that the Tearfall was also known by other names, one of such being "the Seven-Turn Winter".
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Now whether these eggs were on the ice moon... created from the blood of Asgoroth... or somehow stored in the crystal sun that shattered and the mixing of the sun's fire and draconic blood created red dragon eggs.... dunno
There is a canon answer for this: the eggs are in orbit. We know this because in 1374 DR another, less violent rain of dragon eggs fell across Toril.
From Dragons of Faerūn, p.10:
In the Year of Lightning Storms (1374 DR) Faerūn was beset by great lightning strikes the length and breadth of the continent. At least some of those lightning strikes marked the impact points of an unusual year-long rain of meteors. In a series of visions, Bahamut and Tiamat instructed their respective followers to seek out such sites, for each contained some form of draconic egg within. In the months that followed, the Church of Tiamat recovered more than half of the eggs of the latest Tearfall and brought them back to the Altar of Scales in Unthalass in preparation for the looming war. The rest were lost, hatched on their own, or recovered by followers of Bahamut.
Something that we need to take into account for either current canon and candlekanon: there is a new generation of dragon "teens" on Toril...
Ah, true, they then do an uncertain voice speculation between different sages about the evolution of dragons. The guy that mentions the seven turn winters says that dragons can have been around no more than 10,000 years and
"The Parwiccan Cycle comes to the rescue again, with its talk, variously, of the #147;month of mist,#148; the #147;seven-turn winter,#148; and #147;Tearfall.
#148; It seems clear to us that Tori1 was struck by one of the large rocks that comprise the Tears of Selune, upsetting the world#146;s climatic
balance."
and then someone refutes him later with
Take, for example, the phrases quoted by my learned colleague. A
#147;seven-turn winter#148; certainly seems to be evidence of climatic upheaval; seven years of winter would, anyone must agree, be a catastrophe. But a little research undermines the certainty of this
conclusion. At the time and in the language in which the Parwiccan
Cycle was written, #147;turn#148; was used in varying ways by various groups. In some writings, #147;turn#148; refers to a circuit of Tori1 around its primary -- #151;a year. In others, however, #147;turn#148; refers to a circuit of
Selune around Toril#151; -- a month. Still others use #147;turn#148; to refer to a
single rotation of Toril around its own axis -- #151;a day. While a seven month winter might be inconvenient, it could hardly be classed as a
catastrophe."
So, in the end, something happened for either seven months or seven years. Whether this was during the Tearfall or possibly later when the tear fell to form the dragon sea/moon sea (if that was a separate event caused by the dragon's trying to hit the king killer star). Still, not really an ice age, so much as some bad time, so I'd imagine that the true sun itself still shined and things were colder than they were before when they had another "sun"... and we do have examples of "local" suns being summoned in the realms, such as the one above Elturel that's related to Amaunator.
We also have this from the GHotR
"The dramatic climate change that followed quickly brought an end to the batrachi civilization."
So, the batrachi died out, but the other cultures thrived, such as the Aearee (sp?) and we start seeing mammal type cultures taking over instead of cold blooded cultures.
Hmmmm, so if there's all these dragon eggs in orbit, why has no one seen them? I get that maybe they're in asteroids, but still people are mining asteroids. Throw in the idea that the original tears supposedly just "appeared". Its almost like these asteroids were ported in from somewhere else and then fell to the surface.
Also... just think this is actually kind of interesting
the Church of Tiamat recovered more than half of the eggs of the latest Tearfall and brought them back to the Altar of Scales in Unthalass
What's Gilgeam seeking to rebuild? Are we sure all of these eggs got hatched in the eleven years leading up to the spellplague? I wonder if something might not have happened to them.
Oddly, I've got this picture of Takhisis and draconians in my head now. Not saying that Takhisis and Tiamat are the same mind you. What might Gilgeam (or the Son of Victory) do with a bunch of dragon eggs? ahhh... they're probably gone....
Hmmm, since Tiamat DID kill Gilgeam, she could in theory be wearing his.... nah, don't go there. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 07 Aug 2017 00:15:51 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2017 : 23:49:22
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Too bad that is one of the plots that got "killed" by the Spellplague... because those eggs, unless hatched in the years prior to the Spellplague, either did not survived the cataclysm or were sent to dragonland.
On the other hand, as you said were 11 years between that event and the Spellplague. All of those eggs must have had hatched. If so, well, Tiamat plot wot wrecked when she was enslaved by Bane, Asmodeus and others... so, those dragons are free of her influence, unless some were raised by Tiamat's cultist. And those one must be a minority, cuz' the Spellplague must have killed or scattered Tiamat power base in the area (and unlike Bahamut, she was a banned god in Tymanther).
Mmm, I guess that explain why the Cult of the Dragon became active on Tymanther, beyond trying to recruit dragonborn.
As for what Gilgeam wants with dragons? I guess the Son of Victory would kill them outright if he saw them. From the way he talks in TDYK about the dragon lords of Abeir, he really hates dragons.
Now, dragons are long-lived, so this plot can be rescued (in the CKanon,  ). So... endless possibilities... I can even picture most of those youngings hanging around in Murghōm and Semphar. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 07 Aug 2017 00:19:01 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2017 : 00:11:13
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I know you're trying to just get to the facts, but just want to throw out these that come from the myths but are a conjecture. Earlier I was trying to match too much, and your writing things out helped me gather my wits.
One of the things as well is that there possibly were 3 "satellites" in orbit around Toril at that time. One being a moon of earth. One being a moon of water/ice (Zotha?). One being a "crystal sun" or some kind of burning gem? It kind of makes me wonder if there wasn't a 4th moon somehow made of air that people just couldn't see... because it was made of air.
Why do I say that there was a "moon" made of fire? Because when the "crystal sun" was destroyed, there wasn't some ice age like there had been a few thousand years prior. In fact, maybe the prior ice age was because the original sun had been clouded away by darkness, so what they did was put a localized sun in orbit to keep things alive. So, what this would mean is that when this smaller crystal sun is destroyed at the time of the Tearfall likely the world got cooled off and this started the trend for other races like mammals that aren't cold blooded to take off.
Granted absolutely all conjecture. It gets more confusing when you start asking who is who and why.
After reading all the myths, I do believe it would be good to have Shekinester be the "crystal sun" OR the guardian of the "crystal sun". The whole "she guarded an eternal flame that contained the knowledge and wisdom of the world serpent" fit this.
Then we have both Ssharstrune who attacks Shekinester (guardian of the eternal flame) and Asgoroth the World Shaper who attacks "the crystal sun". In both instances, the "thing attacked" is shattered/fragmented into parts of some sort, but it also kills the attacker at the same time. In both instances, a new race or races are born of this death as well. In the Ssharstrune/Shekinester story its new serpentine races of nagas that are born. In the Asgoroth/Crystal Sun story, its dragons that are born (as well as possibly Bahamut).
Then we also have another story involving Asgorath the world shaper (minor spelling change, but I think we can assume the same entity) that would appear to be at the same time. However, it possibly happens prior to Asgorath getting to the crystal sun? It would appear that she gathers the moon made of ice and hurls it at Toril. This is known as the Tearfall and presumably the ice melting creates much of the inner sea. Around this time, dragon eggs fall. Now whether these eggs were on the ice moon... created from the blood of Asgoroth... or somehow stored in the crystal sun that shattered and the mixing of the sun's fire and draconic blood created red dragon eggs.... dunno
Hmmmm, skip forward in time... this may get wonky, so work with me and improve this.... There weren't in theory any tears of Selune yet. Why do I say this? Because two sources have the tears of Selune showing up in "relatively" recent times (though it could be incorrect data, much as we make bad conclusions).
The first is this, from GHotR entry of -349: Kisonraathiisar's slow demise
In the desperate hope that another of Asgoraths children might chance upon my remains and seek what I have found, I now reveal my most precious piece of knowledge: The Hills of the Seven Lost Gods are not what they first seem. Each of the seven rings of standing stones dates back to the last days of the Reign of Dragons, when the elder wyrms sought to reverse what the elves had wrought. My ancestors
tried to focus the Weave into a weapon of unparalleled might that could shatter the Drifting Stars into clouds of rubble in the heavens above. But they scored only a glancing blow on the moon that circles our world, leaving only a string of tears and an inland sea to mark their failure. Now reason is once again undone by rage, and all that dragons have wrought crumbles slowly into dust.
Then there's this entry from Realmspace (which I know, some don't consider canon). I also know that the histories in the Shou Lung libraries should be taken with a grain of salt. Then lord only knows Leira's involvement with the moon. However, here's what's said.
The Tears of Selune one day just appeared, apparently from nowhere. The different cultures of Toril have their own versions of what happened.
Written in the Shou Lung scrolls of history, over 4,800 years back (Phillips note roughly ~ -3500 DR'ish and technically before Shou Lung existed according to later lore... so take date with a grain of salt... or assume the emperor mentioned was the emperor of Imaskar... and also note elven legends help to corroborate the date) an astronomer looking up toward Selune, mapping its surface, reported seeing many objects suddenly "pop" into existence. Tremendous tidal waves of all of Toril's oceans commenced.
Several hours later, the same astronomer, Tu Pi Chei, reported his findings to the emperor's men. The emperor, awakened from his sleep, was very interested in this matter, and went out the next night to study the phenomenon with Tu Pi. After seeing that, indeed, a cluster of lights had appeared to the right of the moon, he had the 20 best astrologers in the country deduce its meaning.
Nearly all of the predictions involved Shou Lung's expansion inland, while a few deduced that there was to be a death in the emperor's family, and in one reported divination, the emperor himself was to become pregnant. The latter astrologer was soon put to death.
Indeed, Shou Lung did begin expansion inland shortly thereafter, and today, it is one of the largest countries in Toril. The emperor's wife also died during childbirth later that year.
The elven nation of Evermeet documented the same phenomenon about the same time as the Shou Lung, but their reaction was quite different, viewing the astronomical phenomenon as a sign from their gds. The gods, being pleased with their continued magical research and progression in their arts, gave them this sign as a gift. To them, the Tears of Selune is a source of pride.
skip some ahead, as this next part is interesting when considering a crystal sun in orbit
Most human legends tell of a time when the goddess Selune fell in love with a handsome warrior who turned out to be a shape changing monster bent on conquest and destruction. Using her very life essence, she created a gem that would contain the warrior and his minions until the end of time. The tears she cried were spilled, and now lie near the moon that is her namesake.
SOOOOOO, long winded as that was. What can we take from it.
1) It would appear that the Tears of Selune just popped into being say around -3500 DR.
2) Selune entrapped some great shape changing monster bent on conquest and destruction (Primordial?) in a gem in the sky (crystal sun filled with fiery red dragon eggs?). Was Shekinester guarding this "eternal flame"?
3) In the "final days of the Reign of Dragons" dragons created "something" near westgate that shot "some power" at presumably the King Killer Star. But they missed. It hit something else (invisible air moon that they didn't know was there, and when it broke apart it became visible and/or solidified somehow? glancing blow on the actual moon? the place where once the crystal sun existed causing its "shards" to reappear somehow?) and suddenly asteroids appeared. Presumably one of these "tears" fell to earth forming the dragon sea/moonsea region.
4) What else happened around -3500 DR? the Nether scrolls were discovered by the Netherese and they just abandon the teachings of the elves. Also, the couatl population starts decreasing precipitously for reasons unknown.
5) Total conjecture here. This instance that happened around -3500 DR was another crossover between Abeir and Toril. The tears came from Abeir and were some kind of remant of the crystal sun that transferred to Abeir? The couatl population actually goes to Abeir? Somehow the dragons accidentally kicked off some kind of crossover between Abeir and Toril? Weird idea.... is this when "Osse" appeared? Also, why did the Netherese totally abandon elven magic? Why did the elves think that this was a reward for their magic? Is it because standard magic quit working temporarily and only Elven High Magic or magic using the rules found in the Nether Scrolls worked?
A few things...
1. I think the stuff from Realmspace has to be non-canon, at least as of the current era. The Spelljammer stuff seems to have been retconed in the setting, and we have no idea what is canon there anymore. 4th Edition still has Spelljammers but they function differently than those of the Spelljammer setting. Those events listed also do not appear in the Grand History of the Realms, at least I could not find them there.
2. I think the Tears of Selune are likely the remnants of the second moon that was destroyed. It is unlikely the entire moon crashed into Toril, only part of it.
3. Here is the canon lore we have for the stuff about Asgorath and Zotha that all comes from the Draconomicon, pg. 2-3:
quote:
". . . The World was still flat, here before the beginning of Time, before Asgorath the World-Shaper folded the cloth of existence into its final form. The World was flat, and above it hung the Crystal Sun that Zotha had wrought before Asgorath cast him down. Asgorath soared above the World and looked down upon it, and she saw that it was good.
"And so Asgorath bent her form around the Crystal Sun, and touched her breath to it. And the Crystal Sun burst into fragments that pierced the flesh of Asgorath, and her blood fell on the World. Where the drops fell, the Powers of the World and the Powers of the Crystal Sun came together, and the Spawn of Asgorath came forth upon the face of the World.
"Red, they were, red that would later depart from its purity But here before the beginning of Time, their red was the pure red of the shattered Crystal Sun. They spread their wings and took to the skies, circling around the still, cold form of Asgorath. One after another score upon score, they bent their breath against the body of Asgorath, and the skies rang with their lamentations. Only one of the Spawn of Asgorath withheld his breath. Instead, he pulled a shard of the Crystal Sun from the flesh of Asgorath, and used it to draw blood from his own flesh, and this blood fell upon the face of the World.
"As before, there was movement where the blood fell, but the creatures that came forth from this blood were not of the pure red. Colored like the products of the World they were, like the unliving metals. And the Renegade raised his voice, and his voice was a trumpet: 'I too have Created.'
"The form of Asgorath began to stir, as the Renegade knew it must. The Renegade spread his wings and flew, and the Spawn of the Renegade followed him into the farthest reaches of the world."
--from the Book of the World
Excerpted from The Origin Myths--A Treatise by Dunkelzahn of Candlekeep, 1354 DR
Perhaps surprisingly, there are very few origin myths that relate directly to dragons. One of the few is a tome known as the Book of the World. Only one copy of this book has ever been found and that in the land of Asram, about 100 years ago. The language of the book is Thorass--more correctly, an even more archaic form of Thorass than most samples of this language--but the script used is a simplified runic form. (No doubt the selection of runic script was necessitated by the construction of the book: it consists of 300 sheets of thin, flexible metal onto which the runes have been scribed with great precision.) This combination of language and script explains the difficulties and delays involved in translating the tome.
From its content and the mythic forms used, it is obvious to scholars that the Book of the World is an example of holy literature--that is, it once was at the center of a body of religious beliefs. The nature of some of those beliefs can be inferred from the myths contained in the Book, but there is insufficient cultural context to confidently analyze the belief structure. (For example, it is not known whether the creation myths are symbolic or intended to be taken as absolute truth.)
The sheer volume of mythic material within the Book, and the relatively organized chronological and contextual structure used throughout, imply that it originated from a fairly sophisticated culture. This is paradoxical, since no cultures of sufficient sophistication apparently ever arose in Asram. The possibility cannot be overlooked that the Book was transported from elsewhere and abandoned in Asram, but that theory also has its problems. There is no modern culture that contains even the vaguest mythological or symbolic echoes of the Book's content. Judging from the oxidation of the Book's metal pages, the specimen under examination was probably no more than 500 years old. In that time, it seems unlikely that an entire religio-mythic tradition would vanish from Toril. But that seems to be the case here. (The wild speculations that the Book of the World did not arise in Toril at all are discounted by most reputable scholars.)
The Book provides a fascinating origin myth relating to dragonkind. From a close reading of the text, it becomes obvious that Asgorath the World-Shaper is a dragon. The implication that a dragon created the universe, and that dragons were the first creatures to exist--is quite fascinating. A further point arises from the sentence that reads, "And so Asgorath bent her form around the Crystal Sun, and touched her breath to it." In the original Thorass, the word "breath"--normally used as a singular or uncountable noun in this context--has been given a plural suffix ("breaths"). Is this meant to imply that Asgorath is a multi-headed dragon?
The text is clearer when it comes to the "Spawn of Asgorath." There can be no doubt that these creatures are red dragons. The following sentences hint that this religion holds the red dragon as the most important species of dragon. All others would "later depart from . . . purity."
When the Renegade ("bahmat" in the original Thorass) duplicates the actions of Asgorath, the dragons that arise are "not of the pure red," but rather "colored . . . like the unliving metals." The implication here is obvious: The Spawn of the Renegade are the metallic--and primarily good-aligned-dragons, What the Book of the World contains is not only an origin myth of dragons--which makes it important enough in its own right--but also one of the few surviving evil-oriented origin myths.
It is easy to speculate, based on this myth. The plural inflection of the word "breath" might be taken as implying multiple heads; the Thorass word for renegade is "bahmat." It seems almost too close a correlation--can Asgorath be Tiamat and the Renegade be Bahamut?
An interesting speculation has recently arisen. It has long been thought that the Book of the World represents a body of human, demihuman, or humanoid myth. Is this a short-sighted and humanocentric assumption? The key features of the origin myth--sacrifice, betrayal, and rebirth--are common to almost every humanoid ethos, but in all of those myth-bodies the central characters are anthropomorphic. In other words, humanoid myth-builders create gods in their own image. In the myth presented in the Book of the World, there is not a single humanoid character.
Might not the Book of the World present an origin myth that was originally developed by dragons--probably red dragons--themselves? At a later date, humanoids adopted the myth, and incorporated it into the Book--for the Book of the World is obviously a humanoid artifact.
Dragons have never been thought to be great mythographers. Does this statement tell us more about dragons or about the prejudices of researchers?
(The following is excerpted from an address to the Council of Sages by Kelmara of Arabel, 1346 DR)
I think that all of the above is myth. When I talked about the Red Dragon mythology this is what I was talking about. I think this is basically a creative re-telling of the Tearfall, from the mythological perspective of the Red Dragons.
According to Grand History of the Realms, pg. 8:
quote:
c. 31000 DR
An unimaginable catastrophe strikes Abeir-Toril. Whole continents vanish in earthquakes, fires, and windstorms, and the seas are rearranged. Ancient sarrukh accounts remark on the "changing of the stars," but no one now knows what this might mean.
Most scholars now speculate that at about this date a comet or ice moon fell from the sky, devastating much of Abeir-Toril, and refer to this event as the Tearfall. The four Inner Seas merge together to form the body of water known today as the Sea of Fallen Stars. Tens of thousands of dragon eggs soon hatch across Toril. The dramatic climate change that followed quickly brought an end to the batrachi civilization.
This is expanded upon in 4th Edition, Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, pg. 41:
quote:
In the final days of the batrachi civilization (c. 31,000 DR), an unimaginable catastrophe struck Toril. It is said that the amphibioids were waging a losing war against the titan armies of Annam's brood. In their desperation, the batrachi performed an epic ritual of summoning that released several primordials from their imprisonment. The gods quickly moved against their ancient foes, resulting in terrible earthquakes, fires, and windstorms that swept across the planet. During the tumult, a primordial calling herself Asgoroth the World Shaper even hurled an ice moon at Toril, intent on destroying the world she couldn't claim as her own. Yet before the world was torn completely asunder, the Hidden One intervened. Lord Ao created a twin of the planet, granting the primordials dominion over the new world of Abeir and the gods control over the original world of Toril. Ancient sarrukh accounts remark on the "changing of the stars," but until the Spellplague and the return of Abeir, very few paid these legends any heed.
I think the Tears of Selune are fragments of this ice moon. The moon itself shattered, and fragments fell toward Toril. These falling fargments, along with other magics being employed by the batrachi is what the Sarrukh are commenting on.
I would make the argument that the Rain of Fire in 1373 DR and the "year-long rain of meteors" in 1374 DR are connected.
According to Grand History of the Realms, pg. 154
quote:
1373 DR Marpenoth 26: One of the larger rocks comprising the Tears of Selūne inexplicably moves much closer to Toril, causing a total solar eclipse over much of the Inner Sea. This rogue tear remained motionless over Toril for nearly a day before plummeting again. As it entered the atmosphere, Selūne's tear separated into five large chunks, each cutting a flaming path through the sky. Those chunks then broke apart into thousands of smaller pieces. This event, witnessed by tens of thousands, became known as the Rain of Fire and was seen as an ill omen by many.
...
1374 DR: Faerūn is beset by great lightning strikes the length and breadth of the continent. At least some of those lightning strikes mark the impact points of an unusual year-long rain of meteors. In a series of visions, Bahamut and Tiamat instruct their respective followers to seek out such sites, for each contains some form of draconic egg within.
I think the fall of the Tear in the previous year disturbed the orbit of the other smaller fragments. The Tear that fell may have even started breaking apart long before its final approach. This led to the rain of meteors over the following year, some of which contained dragonic eggs. ...and of course, these metors and tear fragments could be linked to the original ice moon during the Tearfall.
This may even be why it is called "the Tearfall." The ice moon may have shattered into fragments long before the Tearfall. Then during the Tearfall some of the largest fragments were what actually hit the planet. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2017 : 00:25:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Too bad that is one of the plots that got "killed" by the Spellplague... because those eggs, unless hatched in the years prior to the Spellplague, either did not survived the cataclysm or were sent to dragonland.
On the other hand, as you said were 11 years between that event and the Spellplague. All of those eggs must have had hatched. If so, well, Tiamat plot wot wrecked when she was enslaved by Bane, Asmodeus and others... so, those dragons are free of her influence Unless some where raised by Tiamat's cultist. And those one must be a minority, cuz' the Spellplague must have killed or scattered. Mmm, I guess that explain why the Cult of the Dragon became active on Tymanther, beyond trying to recruit dragonborn.
As for what Gilgeam wants with dragons? I guess the Son of Victory would kill them outright if he saw him. For the way he talks in TDYK about the dragon lords of Abeir, he really hates dragons.
Now, dragons are long-lived, so this plot can be rescued (in the CKanon, ). So... endless possibilities... I can even picture most of those youngings hanging around in Murghōm and Semphar.
You know, the city of Dalath is near to Unthalass. That's where the Millenium Dragon is, who converted to worship of Kereska the wonderbringer and gained a youthful body. Maybe it would be fun to have him raising these dragons, having had his followers steal them or something and hiding them away so that they could be raised in secret. Does 5e even give dragon age spans anywhere? What would a 115'ish year old dragon be?
From 2e Draconomicon
The Dragon of Dalath
Maldraedior lives in a temple complex beneath the streets of Dalath,
a mining town some 40 miles north of the eastern part of the Smoking Mountains of Unther. The existence of this temple is a carefully guarded secret. Maldraedior has lived within it for nearly 3,000 years, and during this time he has been served by members of two families#151; - the Ramahiresh and Kalmarak families. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2017 : 03:10:03
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There was a different, perhaps 'more powerful' Weave in-place before the fall of Netheril.
My whole problem with separating the Godswar from the Sundering is that both have connection to the War of Light & Darkness, and I see we are just ignoring that now (because 4e/5e did, and maybe even 3e?) It said there was NO DEATH before that conflict, and yet we apparently have things dying in the 'Days of Thunder', which just shouldn't be.
Unless... does it specifically state beings on one side or another 'died'? Or does it just say one side triumphed and the other was imprisoned (beaten senseless/comatose because they just couldn't die)? If thats the case, it could explain why most of the losers were 'in a coma' for countless millennia.
But then I still want to tie it to the War of Light & Darkness. Did something 'wake up'? Was Shar one of the somnambulant deities that 'woke up', and attacked her sister (with the Ice moon, which contained the draconic DNA/whatever)? Or was all that supposed to happen during the Dawn War/Godswar? But then 'death' would have come into the universe too soon, me thinks, for everything else to work out. Unless death did come into the world when it was just the ONE World, and the 'lesser' versions of the Creators were born to that world, pre-Sundering (but then we have Elves before the sundering, which just doesn't sound right to me. Before that, we should only have Fey). I may need to create an unnecessary and confusing 'in-between' stage.
Immortals - the Creator Races (the first races of non-celestial status)
Exalted - the First children of the Immortals, born after the Dawn War, but before the sundering (Eladrin, 'High Men', etc.)
Mortals - The first to be born after Death came into the universe.
I'm not really sure what the difference would be between the first two, other than giving me a category to stick the Seldarine in (because they were NOT Creators). immortals would have been just that, and just shy of being 'true gods' (more like demigods/exarchs now). Exalted may have been on-par with them power-wise, but mortal (if they did die of 'old age', the aging effects wouldn't be as apparent, and they'd still probably live few thousand years). And mortals are just that. With each passing generation, morta beings lose their 'exalted' status. Because of human fecundity (I love that word - its just a REALLY polite way of saying **** like bunnies ), so many generations have passed they are one of the shortest lived of the Humanish races. Others - especially elves - much less so (Drow have been forced to breed more rapidly than their surface kin - because of attrition - so they've lost much more 'lifespan' than their surface cousins.
So it all works sort of like Vampires - the very first generation (after Death shows up) is THE most powerful, and each successive generation, less so. Some Exalted - like those Sarrukh liches - may have extended their already-long lifespans by spending most of their time in 'suspended animation' (so they aren't true liches - not in the regular sense. They've just become desiccated from having lived way past when they were supposed to).
So if Eladrin are 'Exalted' (quasi-divine, like DvR '0' demigods), and the Seldarine were Eladrin (outsider Elves - but the term 'Outsider' can't even apply until after the first World was Sundered/shattered/fractured), and then they ascended through veneration by their people (they would have been the 'nobility' among the Eladrin, and Corellon, their 'king'), it would all make sense. Convoluted, but at least there is a logical progression. That means the Seldarine (most of them, anyway) could have attained godhood before the Sundering, and so would be considered 'elder gods' by anyone born into the multiverse (the post-shattered world).
And my (homebrew) etymology would still work: 'El' means 'offspring', and 'ves' means 'loyal' in ancient High-Fey. And adrine means 'wayward'. Thus, El'ves means 'loyal children' (the ones that stayed with the fey and served them), and the El'adrine (Eladrin) means 'Wayward children' (because the two brothers - Gru-Mass & Cor Ellion lead 'their' people out of Faerie into 'the wilds' and founded Tintageer. The prefix 'S' denoted nobility, thus, the S'El'adrine would have been their rulers (which eventually became Seldarine).
Then I borrow a bit from the excellent Saga of Pliocene Exile books, and have a major rift between the Dökkįlfar (NOT 'drow') and Ljósįlfar - dakr and light elves. Cor Ellion's father was Freyr Ellion, king of the light Elves, but his father was taken prisoner by the Norse (who called these elves 'Vanir'), so he became the king of the Ljósįlfar. Gru-mass' father was Maelkith, who disappeared some time earlier (some say he went to hell), so he was king of the Dökkįlfar. The rift between the two peoples grew so great (it was really about 'freedom of expression') that the brothers came to blows, and Gru-mass (Grumsh from then on) lead his people away (who became the Orcs, and other goblinoids)). Some say that was just an excuse - that they really fought over their beautiful cousin, the Dökkįlfar Araushnee the weaver.
Occasionally Annam is depicted with just one eye, so there is at least one heresy that he and Gruumsh are the same god, but that simply is not so. They do get along, however (it was Annam - as 'The All-Father' who took Corellon's father prisoner. Don't feel bad - Frey, his sister, and his father didn't mind their 'hostage' status all that much), after Gruumsh' fallout with the Seldarine.
Theres TONS more - like how Frey's father Njöršr is also Deep Sashelas...and Poseidon/Neptune - but I have to compile it all and put it someplace 'safe' (like maybe the Candlekanon wiki someday). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Aug 2017 05:59:20 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2017 : 03:53:09
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| I don't see why gods can't just be gods from the beginning (not necessarily the beginning of time, but beginning of their existence) instead of being ascended mortals (or some lesser divine being). Gods can be "born" (for lack of a better word) as gods. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 07 Aug 2017 04:00:17 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2017 : 04:38:00
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Yeah, I'm also more of the idea that gods can be gods since the beginning. Not every divine being has to be created by mortal consciousness or whatever.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Unless... does it specifically state beings on one side or another 'died'? Or does it just say one side triumphed and the other was imprisoned (beaten senseless/comatose because they just couldn't die)? If thats the case, it could explain why most of the losers were 'in a coma' for countless millennia.
Well... it specifically says (FRCG, p.42)
This Blue Age came to a sudden and chilling end when Toril was inexplicably plunged into darkness, its sun snatched from the sky by a sinister primordial known as the Night Serpent. Global temperatures plummeted, and soon, most life on the planet became extinct.
So, most of the original lifeforms of Toril died during the Dawn War.
Though, the Dawn War doesn't put a specific timeframe for that conflict (the battle of Selūne and Shar). So, that conflict can have happened amid the Dawn War or nearly at the end, or whatever.
A important difference between the 4e myth and the 3e myth, is that, while in the 3e myth Selūne and Shar "created the bodies of the heavens," in the 4e one who created the worlds of Realmspace and the "glittering realm of starlight" (stars, I presume?) was Ao.
And, I guess Ao didn't existed in the Netherese myths, so he takes precedence over the twins (as he is the Overgod).
BTW, can you point me out to the sourcebook that says that death did not existed before the conflict of the twins? Because that isn't mentioned in 3e.
That said, we have to take into account that maybe this stuff was either retconned (likely, the most probable scenario) or just "a myth".
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Was Shar one of the somnambulant deities that 'woke up', and attacked her sister (with the Ice moon, which contained the draconic DNA/whatever)? Or was all that supposed to happen during the Dawn War/Godswar?
Does this fit the timeline, though? Because, by this point, the batrachi and the sarrukh had been existing for many thousands of years.
BTW, the 3e FRCS says dragons were one of the Creator Races, but other sources (like the Grand History) don't list as one. List instead the avian guys (the Aaerae). Anybody knows why? Or this is just a retcon? |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 07 Aug 2017 05:00:31 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2017 : 06:36:28
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Its 'sort of' a retcon. One early source listed the dragons, and then later on we got a list with the five we know. I think there is a vingette (in the GHotR) that references that one, early source (and puts it in such a way that it is 'apocryphal' to the setting - 'uncertain 3rd person'. It is really weird to have Mankind as a Creator-Race, and not the Elves (although I think D&D screwed up badly by having 'Fey' and 'Elves' be separate things, and we've been suffering with contradictory lore ever since). Unlike Tolkien (or most other fantasy settings), the Elves are NOT Fey, and are NOT 'the most ancient race'. In FR, they haven't even been around as long as humans. The Fey were, and I think they are the 'True Elves' - that the prime Material group we call that are just cheap imitations. And I think they know it... and it drives them nuts.
Upper tier gods (the one the setting would never touch upon), 'in-game' maybe, but I get the idea that the 'game gods' (or even the ones from RW mythology) aren't gods at all - they are just extremely powerful beings, not a whole lot different then say, a level 30 Wizard. Ed has even likened his gods to the Amberites in the Chronicles of Amber series (just regular people born with abilities most of us don't have... like superheroes).
And please define 'The Beginning'. Do you guys think everything just appeared at once? For no reason? Nevermind - just read everything more carefully. Not agreeing, just saying my question was answered... sort of).
I actually see deities (the 'gods' we know) as the one of the lowest tiers in the divine echelon. I guess I follow the rules from OD&D where 'gods' are concerned (and they didn't even call them gods - they called them 'immortals', and the immortals themselves knew their were tiers 'above' them, but had no inkling of what they were like. They were as ignorant of all that as mortals are of 'the gods').
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Aug 2017 14:15:07 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2017 : 10:35:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My whole problem with separating the Godswar from the Sundering is that both have connection to the War of Light & Darkness, and I see we are just ignoring that now (because 4e/5e did, and maybe even 3e?) It said there was NO DEATH before that conflict, and yet we apparently have things dying in the 'Days of Thunder', which just shouldn't be.
Unless... does it specifically state beings on one side or another 'died'? Or does it just say one side triumphed and the other was imprisoned (beaten senseless/comatose because they just couldn't die)? If thats the case, it could explain why most of the losers were 'in a coma' for countless millennia.
But then I still want to tie it to the War of Light & Darkness. Did something 'wake up'? Was Shar one of the somnambulant deities that 'woke up', and attacked her sister (with the Ice moon, which contained the draconic DNA/whatever)? Or was all that supposed to happen during the Dawn War/Godswar? But then 'death' would have come into the universe too soon, me thinks, for everything else to work out. Unless death did come into the world when it was just the ONE World, and the 'lesser' versions of the Creators were born to that world, pre-Sundering (but then we have Elves before the sundering, which just doesn't sound right to me. Before that, we should only have Fey). I may need to create an unnecessary and confusing 'in-between' stage.
Good point, and in delving it we may discover something about Abeir that was never delved. Note, in this, not necessarily trying to set the timing of the Selune/Shar fight... just want to explore the initial concept of the before and after.
So, if there was no death, does that mean you could stab someone in the heart and they wouldn't drop to the ground and quit moving? My answer would be no. They simply reincarnated and the soul stayed within the world. Possibly before the war of light and darkness the crystal sphere had no connections to the outer planes, and so souls had nowhere to go. Now, I'm not saying the outer planes didn't exist, just that "realmspace" didn't have connections to it yet. I'm also not saying that other crystal spheres filled with gods didn't exist, because they probably did. At least according to the 4e campaign guide, some gods came from other dimensions to Toril (not necessarily the outer planes)
What does this mean for us? It means the "gods"/"estelar" would have looked very similar to the Primordials. They would have been bound to the crystal sphere OR the inner planes.
So then eventually a god of death is formed. We could play with semantics and even say that even at this point the outer planes don't exist as a link to realmspace, but I'm thinking this becomes the perfect time for such. When death is formed, it introduces the concept that the soul has some place to go. It also introduces the concept of souls "feeding" outer planar domains to keep them going.
So, what does this concept mean for Abeir which had no outer planar connections until possibly recently? What happened to the souls on Abeir? Did they reincarnate? Were they absorbed by the land/primordials similar to how gods eat souls? If so, was this a big difference between the gods and primordials (i.e. gods required souls to be "given" and primordials simply wanted them to "come" to them to sit out like a buffet). Were the primordials involved in the reincarnation process (i.e. they eat the soul and "pass" it back into the world)?
In fact, if we say the weave has ties to life and death.... hmmm, perhaps another reason why the "weave" worked differently in Abeir (until of course my homebrew that dweomerheart and other godly domains went there and there were suddenly places for spirits to go besides the bellies of the primordials). If the weave is actually some linkage of all living things, then "the weave of Abeir" must only work through accessing the "power of the primordials" which would fit with the concept of dream magic since they are asleep. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 07 Aug 2017 10:52:32 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2017 : 16:09:50
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Because WE (RW) live in a very 'real', solid, material world, with lots of sciency things and 'facts', we have a hard time picturing something VERY different.
The 'First World' ('Midgard' - really just one nigh-infinite plane) wouldn't have had things 'set in stone' (both literally and figuratively). EVERYTHING was mutable/malleable. Time means almost nothing to immortal beings. Also, in that world, thought was reality, so if one of those 'Elder Great Gods' (the ones I dubbed 'Ordials', of which only the lowest tier - The Prime-Ordials - are the only ones mortals know about, and on Toril, only recently) has a thought about something, it becomes an actual, 'physical' thing (probably more like how VR works - these beings actually existed mostly in the Astral - they were 'thought incarnate' - the 'First World' was really just their 'combined imagination'). Its like how powerful illusions work -they're real, so long as you believe in them. Now put the mental prowess of a being a thousand times powerful than a god behind it - that's reality. Ao snaps his fingers and *poof* everything changes... even history and people's memories of it. That means at a certain level, there is no difference between reality and illusion.
In my own homebrew 'Over-Cosmology', I have it where 'The One' (call it 'GOD', call it 'The Force', call it 'Eternity' from Marvel comics - doesn't matter) forms out of chaos. In the random soup of the primordial elemental oceans a single coherent thought pattern accidentally takes form (this probably happened multiple times, but without the concept of time itself, who could ever know?) But one time, it managed to stay cohesive just long enough to push back the flood of chaos from re-taking its own. Thats how a Universe (multiverse) is born. There may be one, there may be others (the Omniverse concept), but it doesn't matter. Then that 'being' that is EVERYTHING there is has another thought, and another, and another. These would be very basic, primitive concepts to this brand new mind, but they would form the building blocks of the new universe. Time, Space, the desire to have/know more, to 'create' more, etc., etc.; all of those things would be its thoughts, and those thoughts - just like The One - would become sentient things in their own right - the First (Elder) Gods. I used to dubbed that first group the 'Conceptuals', since they were just that - concepts given 'life'. Still, they would all be part of 'The One'. from them other ideas sprang into existence, and from that groups still others, and so on, and so forth. At each level of this 'mental splitting' we lose some power, and even at the near-infinite range of energy the earliest possessed, even that gets 'watered down'. Until we get to the Prime Ordials (Primordials) - these beings would feel most comfortable in a physical form (many, just a single element). All these beings could simply 'think' something into existence - even a celestial (and ALL of those 'lesser' beings were Celestials back then - there were no 'fiends', and there were no 'mortals').
So that was the first world - a place where armies of 'minions' could be created one day (there were no 'days', really), and then be re-absorbed the next, as if they never existed. There was no 'death' because there only a beginning - there was no 'end'. the idea that things could 'end' wasn't even known to them. If they got rid of an army of minions with a snap of their fingers (metaphorically speaking), and then the next day some other Power wanted to use them, it just snapped its fingers and they were back. Maybe the lower-tiered Ordials (pre-God Powers) got lazy, or it was just slightly harder for them to create stuff 'whole cloth', but they started to leave some of these groups around, for later use. Others copied the groups others had done, or brought them back, memories of their 'past life' intact (the didn't 'die', they were just put back into the eternal wellspring of 'primal energy', and then drawn back forth from it). It was like NPCs in a video game - when you aren't in a zone (area), the game doesn't bother 'generating' that person. It won't until you need them to be there. But what if the coders got sloppy? What if some NPCs stuck around? And what if the (super) computer had near-infinite capabilities - would that NPCs not eventually become sentient on its own? In FR lore we even have a canon example of a mortal-created illusion doing just that, because it was 'left on' too long (Listle, from Pool of Twilight).
So at some point, just abut any 'illusion' (stray thought, etc) can become sentient, and its own, self-perpetuating thing, which makes the already fine line between illusion and reality practically nonexistent. And what is a 'spell', but a magically empowered desire (emotion/thought)?
Anyhow, my point is, that world - that first world which was very much a 'sanbox of the Gods' - didn't have 'rules' the way worlds/planes do now. Everything was in-flux, and the concepts of time and 'death' (an 'end' to something) were meaningless. At some point actual, TRUE 'death' entered the world - the concept that something could 'end', and not be brought back. But here's the rub - that, too, is a lie. 'Death' doesn't mean a gods-damned thing in D&D, be it god, fiend, or mortal. You don't 'come to an end' - you just go somewhere else. Thats how it's always been. Except in that first world, there was nowhere else. You'd just reappear in the same spot if something destroyed you (once you established you're own sentience, that is - "I think, therefor I am"). Somehow, the concept of 'possession' is what really came into the world - the idea that one being could 'have something', and keep it from another being. Call it what you want, but that 'possession' is the crux of all the deadly sins (especially 'greed'). At some point, instead of simply reappearing where you were (respawning LOL), you wound up in some god's 'domain', and you belonged to them. Suddenly, gods were vying for control over mortal souls, and who 'possessed' them after 'death' (after their physical form was destroyed on the Prime Material). All that really changed was that people (and sentient creature) no longer automatically respawned on the prime Material... but they still do everywhere else. Just think about it. 'Physicality' became enslavement, because only by having a 'life' on the Prime Material, did one get stuck with this 'trapped in a godly realm for all eternity' business.
So what really changed? I've just proven 'death' is just a load of Rothe dung. 'Death' is nothing more than the concept that the 'system has been hacked', and you lost your 'restore point'. Thats it. Thats all it is. The Prime Material Plane - the 'First World' - got broken. And we already knew that. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Aug 2017 20:27:49 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2017 : 16:37:06
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By the way, I know many of us have read and reread these passages, but since some asked about it, here's the part about death as a god being formed from Faiths and Avatars (copied this from the Baldur's Gate Wiki). It should also be noted that I don't think anyone here will agree on whether this was Selune and Shar, or rather maybe some other entities who have since been broken down into Selune and Shar, or entirely different beings altogether (such as Shekinester, Ssharstrune, Dendar the Night Serpent.
Also, there's also been some theories floated about about the exact nature of Abeir-Toril before the Sundering and/or the Sun or Suns that existed. For instance, the red dragon myth intimates that when Asgorath "breathed on the crystal sun and shattered it", that at that time the world was flat. Maybe it was... maybe this is just allegory... maybe when the worlds got twinned they actually changed shape.
There's also the question about just how many suns there were. This comes back to things like the sun created over Elturel by followers of Amaunator. There's also the 4th edition lore that says that Dendar the Night Serpent ate the sun. There's the lore that says that Asgorath destroyed a crystal sun. To further add a little bit of interesting here as well, there's also some things that occur with the Sun and the Orcgate wars, for during it we have not one but two sun gods dying (Ra and Utu) as well as a moon god (Nanna-Sin) and a sudden darkening of the sun (supposedly an eclipse), and this is noted as the first known case of "Deicide"... which I read as god killing god, rather than say Primordial killing God....or a god dying/going to sleep due to lack of worship.... or it could just be the first case documented by humans.
History of the Sisters of Light and Darkness:
This was the birth of the world and the heavens. After Lord Ao created Realmspace, there was a period of timeless nothingness, a misty realm of shadows before light and dark were separate entities. Within the dim chaos stalked 13 lords of shadow, the Shadevari - whether their form came from elsewhere or are children of shadow itself, none can say.
Eventually this primordial essence coalesced into twin beautiful goddesses who where yin and yang to each other; there were so close they thought themselves as one being. The Two-Faced Goddess created the heavenly bodies of the crystal sphere and together infused them with life to form Earthmother, Chauntea. (Although Chauntea has since contracted her essence to encompass only Albeir-Toril, in the beginning she embodied all of the Realmspace.) This new universe was lit by the face of the silver-haired goddess, who called herself Selune, and darkened by the welcoming tresses of the raven-haired goddess, Shar, but no heat or life existed within.
Chauntea begged for warmth so that she could nurture life and living creatures upon the planets that were her body and limbs, and the two sister Who-Were-One, become divided, as for the first time they were of two minds. Silvery Selune constested with her dark sister over whether or not bring further life to the worlds. During this great conflagration, the gods of war, disease, murder, and death, among others, were created from residues of the Deific battle. At one point during the battle, Selune seized the advantage and reached across time and space to a land of eternal fire. Fighting the pain of the blaze, which burned her sorely, she broke off a fragment of that ever-living flame and ignited one of the heavenly bodies so that it burned in the sky and warmed Chauntea.
Incensed, Shar redoubled her attack on her injured twin and began to snuff out all light and heat throughout the crystal sphere. Again Selune gave of herself and tore the divine essence of magic from her body, flinging it desperately at her sister in defense of life in the sphere. This essence entered Shar, ripped an equal portion of energy from her, and reformed behind her as the goddess of magic, now known as Mystra, but then as Mystryl. Though Mystryl was composed of both-light and dark magic, she favored her first mother Selune initially, allowing the silver goddess to win an uneasy with her more powerful dark twin. Consumed by bitterness at her defeat, Shar vowed eternal revenge.
The twin goddesses contested for eons as life struggled into existence on Toril and the other planets under Chauntea's watchful gaze. Shar remained powerful, but bitterly alone, while Selune waxed and waned in power, often drawing strength from her allied daughter and sons and like-minded immigrant deities. Over time, Shar grew strong again, aided by the shadevari who preferred night to blinding light and who stalked the Realms seeking to meld light and dark into shadowy chaos once again. Shar's plot to reform the world after her own devices was undone when Azuth, the High One, formerly the greatest of all mortal spellcasters and now consort to Mystra, (incarnate successor to Mystryl), found a way to imprison the shadevari in a pocket-size crystal located beyond the edges of the world by creating the illusion of a realm of shadows. The Lords of Shadow were drawn to investigate, and before they discovered the trick, Azuth imprisoned the shadevari with the Shadowstar, a key of shadows forged by Gond. The High Lord then hurled the key into the endless reaches of the cosmos allowing life to flourish on in Chauntea's loving hands.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2017 : 20:09:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And please define 'The Beginning'. Do you guys think everything just appeared at once? For no reason? Nevermind - just read everything more carefully. Not agreeing, just saying my question was answered... sort of).
Yeah, I did not mean THE BEGINNING, I meant the beginning of the gods' existence. Their "birth", as it were.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Anyhow, my point is, that world - that first world which was very much a 'sanbox of the Gods' - didn't have 'rules' the way worlds/planes do now. Everything was in-flux, and the concepts of time and 'death' (an 'end' to something) were meaningless. At some point actual, TRUE 'death' entered the world - the concept that something could 'end', and not be brought back. But here's the rub - that, too, is a lie. 'Death' doesn't mean a gods-damned thing in D&D, be it god, fiend, or mortal. You don't 'come to an end' - you just go somewhere else. Thats how it's always been. Except in that first world, there was nowhere else. You'd just reappear in the same spot if something destroyed you (once you established you're own sentience, that is - "I think, therefor I am"). Somehow, the concept of 'possession' is what really came into the world - the idea that one being could 'have something', and keep it from another being. Call it what you want, but that 'possession' is the crux of all the deadly sins (especially 'greed'). At some point, instead of simply reappearing where you were (respawning LOL), you wound up in some god's 'domain', and you belonged to them. Suddenly, gods were vying for control over mortal souls, and who 'possessed' them after 'death' (after their physical form was destroyed on the Prime Material. All that really changed was that people (and sentient creature) no longer automatically respawned on the prime Material... but the still do everywhere else. just think about it. 'Physicality' became enslavement, because only by having a 'life' on the Prime Material, did one get stuck with this 'trapped in a godly realm for all eternity' business.
The cake is a lie! LOL sorry, couldn't resist. Depending on which godly domain you end up in, "trapped for all eternity" wouldn't always be a bad thing. I personally like the idea of an afterlife in the Realms. But it does bring up the interesting concept of what it means to "die". Both in the Realms, and for those of faith in the RW, "death" means an end of the physical form (flesh and blood), but the soul lives on. And this is where gods like Kelemvor come in: to judge how the soul lived while it was "flesh and blood". And of course, there is the concept of reincarnation (a carryover from the video-game style "respawning" of the First World, perhaps?), in which you hang out in your gods' realm for a while, and then are reincarnated as new "flesh and blood", then repeat the process.
The First World makes me think of the one in Pathfinder (and they're probably based on each other). But that one was more like an unfinished painting, and was somewhat Wonderland-like in nature. Certain laws that applied in the Material Plane did not apply to the First World.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2017 : 20:32:54
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
History of the Sisters of Light and Darkness:
This was the birth of the world and the heavens. After Lord Ao created Realmspace, there was a period of timeless nothingness, a misty realm of shadows before light and dark were separate entities. Within the dim chaos stalked 13 lords of shadow, the Shadevari - whether their form came from elsewhere or are children of shadow itself, none can say.
Eventually this primordial essence coalesced into twin beautiful goddesses who where yin and yang to each other; there were so close they thought themselves as one being. The Two-Faced Goddess created the heavenly bodies of the crystal sphere and together infused them with life to form Earthmother, Chauntea. (Although Chauntea has since contracted her essence to encompass only Albeir-Toril, in the beginning she embodied all of the Realmspace.) This new universe was lit by the face of the silver-haired goddess, who called herself Selune, and darkened by the welcoming tresses of the raven-haired goddess, Shar, but no heat or life existed within.
Chauntea begged for warmth so that she could nurture life and living creatures upon the planets that were her body and limbs, and the two sister Who-Were-One, become divided, as for the first time they were of two minds. Silvery Selune constested with her dark sister over whether or not bring further life to the worlds. During this great conflagration, the gods of war, disease, murder, and death, among others, were created from residues of the Deific battle. At one point during the battle, Selune seized the advantage and reached across time and space to a land of eternal fire. Fighting the pain of the blaze, which burned her sorely, she broke off a fragment of that ever-living flame and ignited one of the heavenly bodies so that it burned in the sky and warmed Chauntea.
Incensed, Shar redoubled her attack on her injured twin and began to snuff out all light and heat throughout the crystal sphere. Again Selune gave of herself and tore the divine essence of magic from her body, flinging it desperately at her sister in defense of life in the sphere. This essence entered Shar, ripped an equal portion of energy from her, and reformed behind her as the goddess of magic, now known as Mystra, but then as Mystryl. Though Mystryl was composed of both-light and dark magic, she favored her first mother Selune initially, allowing the silver goddess to win an uneasy with her more powerful dark twin. Consumed by bitterness at her defeat, Shar vowed eternal revenge.
The twin goddesses contested for eons as life struggled into existence on Toril and the other planets under Chauntea's watchful gaze. Shar remained powerful, but bitterly alone, while Selune waxed and waned in power, often drawing strength from her allied daughter and sons and like-minded immigrant deities. Over time, Shar grew strong again, aided by the shadevari who preferred night to blinding light and who stalked the Realms seeking to meld light and dark into shadowy chaos once again. Shar's plot to reform the world after her own devices was undone when Azuth, the High One, formerly the greatest of all mortal spellcasters and now consort to Mystra, (incarnate successor to Mystryl), found a way to imprison the shadevari in a pocket-size crystal located beyond the edges of the world by creating the illusion of a realm of shadows. The Lords of Shadow were drawn to investigate, and before they discovered the trick, Azuth imprisoned the shadevari with the Shadowstar, a key of shadows forged by Gond. The High Lord then hurled the key into the endless reaches of the cosmos allowing life to flourish on in Chauntea's loving hands.
Oh, but this tale its highly maleable. It seems is not connected with the Original Sundering, as well. It happened over the eons, and before there was life in the planets. So, potentially before and during the Blue Age, eons before the Days of Thunder. So, eons before Asgorath threw an ice moon to Abeir-Toril, forcing Ao to separate the worlds.
Give a pair of hours, and I can reconcile this with all the Dawn War lore. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2017 : 20:51:35
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
The cake is a lie! LOL sorry, couldn't resist.
Not just the Cake; the pie has been misleading you, and the parfait can't be trusted. I think the jello is okay... just don't turn you back on it. 
As for an 'afterlife' being a form of 'imprisonment' - just because its enjoyable doesn't mean it isn't still being a prisoner. And besides, if I went to the afterlife my (former) church told me about, I think I would find both the company and music (harps?) rather boring after a very short while. In fact, every 'interesting' person I've ever known is probably going to 'that other place'. I could be a die-hard, tree-hugging Druid, but after a few millennia in Arboria I would never want to see another tree again. Just my opinion, of course. I kind of liken 'afterlives' and religion to being born in citizen of a country, except at least you get to choose 'which country' you want to be a citizen of... forever, and ever, and ever (even after death - they even keep the body LOL). You know what the difference is between true freedom and imprisonment? You don't have to ask someone else for permission to leave. Heaven is just a prettier jail, is all. You can't ask 'God' if you can have a 'holiday in Hades' just for a change of pace.
But on that First World, no-one had to ask someone else's permission. Sure, things were 'discussed', and even collaborated on, and I am sure there are certain 'higher ups' one may have gone to for advice before starting a new project, but you didn't actually 'need' permission for anything. Not when anything can be destroyed of recreated with a wave of a hand, even people. And as I said, time was nigh-meaningless, just a very hazy notion of 'before' and 'after'. Then something changed, and everyone (even the 'goodly' Powers) became covetous. To me, that means the 'unlimited' status of everything came to an end. Its the only reason why they'd change their behavior. Just imagine infinitely powerful beings who have the mindset of spoiled children, and suddenly you tell them that they can't play with some of the toys. They all suddenly looked around for whatever toys were left and started grabbing them, regardless if they even like them or not.
One would almost think that one day someone (a primordial?) bumped into a wall. A wall that shouldn't have been there. An 'end' - they reached one edge of the near-infinite plane, and panic set in. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Aug 2017 20:52:38 |
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What if the Abeir / Toril "out of synch" is TIME
