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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Apr 2016 : 19:36:22
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Folks, that horse has been beat beyond Velsharoon's ability to raise.
Let's maneuver at least somewhat closer to the original topic, please.  |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2016 : 19:39:46
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Sorry, I wasn't being facetious. I really didn't know what agenda was at hand (and this will probably get me shunned, but I didn't think 4th ed was all that bad. I actually quite enjoyed a lot of the novels that came out of that era. >_>)
In any case, is there any sense in trying to figure out what's canon anymore, if stuff like the extra Netherese island keep appearing? |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2016 : 19:57:14
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
In any case, is there any sense in trying to figure out what's canon anymore, if stuff like the extra Netherese island keep appearing?
I'd say that as long as there are authors that care for continuity in the Realms, there's reason to care (and don't get me wrong, with this I don't mean to say that we should we bound to ''canon'' or w/e, just that those who write for the setting need to be on the same page, or everyone might as well just write whatever they feel like).
At this point, I'd say that it's safe to ignore w/e non-canon stuff that appears in the Drizzt books. Btw, this reminded me of something. What's with the demons being kept at bay by sunlight? And sunlight being the reason why they can't reach the surface (I've read that this is the explanation given in Archmage)? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 28 Apr 2016 19:58:00 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2016 : 20:05:42
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
Sorry, I wasn't being facetious. I really didn't know what agenda was at hand (and this will probably get me shunned, but I didn't think 4th ed was all that bad. I actually quite enjoyed a lot of the novels that came out of that era. >_>)
While I didn't like 4e, I agree that some good novels came out of it, and some of them felt unfinished, as if the author planned to add to the story, but things happened and we're unlikely to see them. But there were definitely some good ones. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2016 : 21:01:09
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| The Shades had at least three active flying enclaves, at one point. In addition to Shade proper and Sakkors, there was a third enclave, mentioned in the Neverwinter campaign book. The name escapes me at the moment; there was not much info on that enclave, other than that it was parked neared Thay and was basically a flying siege engine. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2016 : 21:43:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Btw, this reminded me of something. What's with the demons being kept at bay by sunlight? And sunlight being the reason why they can't reach the surface (I've read that this is the explanation given in Archmage)?
Here, I'll give you the text straight out of the book that pertains to this. I don't know how helpful it'll be though, because you pretty much know all there is to know about it (because there isn't a whole lot to know :C).
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“On the surface of Abeir-Toril, likely,” said Lolth. “And there, you cannot go.”
That brought curious expressions to the demons. They looked to each other, Marilith shaking her head, Errtu offering a shrug in return.
“You promised that I would be summoned! I gave you K’yorl, and aided in your plot with Kimmuriel Oblodra—”
“Silence!” Lolth demanded. “The Faerzress will be thinned, and yes, you will be able to pass through to the Underdark—whose life and energy is controlled by the Faerzress. Abeir-Toril’s sun will not abide you until your century of banishment has passed.”
“Never before were such restrictions imposed,” Marilith protested. “I have passed between the two, surface and Underdark, on a single summons from a drow wizard, or from a human above! Are you separating the powers, Underdark and World Above?”
“The Faerzress is attuned to the lower planes, which is where it draws its power,” Lolth explained. “The barrier of the Faerzress draws its strength from the sunlit lands, and so keeps us at bay.”
“And so kept us at bay,” said Errtu.
“Soon,” the Spider Queen promised. |
Edited by - sno4wy on 28 Apr 2016 21:44:33 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2016 : 22:37:54
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The way I'm reading it is that the faerzress itself is forming some sort of boundary between the Underdark and the world above.
It seems from this passage (and only this passage; I do not have and have not read the book) that the sunlight itself isn't any kind of impediment, it's more like saying "the lands above" or "the sunlit world".
The faerzress seems to form some sort of barrier or possibly a kind of planar weakening, meaning the rules keeping the baddies from the surface don't apply in the Underdark. It appears the faerzress is somehow disconnecting the Underdark from the surface world. It's like the faerzress radiation makes the area around it more a part of the Lower Planes than the Prime.
Again, though, this is all based on just that part sno4wy shared and how I'm reading it. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 28 Apr 2016 22:39:10 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2016 : 23:17:45
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| I don't quite get it. If the faerzress makes an area ''attuned'', so to speak, with the lower planes, that would make it easier for an outsider from there to roam the Underdark. However, why would it make impossible for a summoned creature to roam the surface, when there are countless cases of summoned demons doing that? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Lamora
Seeker
USA
81 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2016 : 00:07:37
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| I thought the faerzress was a spell put in place via high magic by the sun elves... For the loremasters on this site, does the spell actually do anything like what Bob is having Lolth say it does? I am wondering if this is just another thing Bob is creating out of thin air; like Shade falling in Aunorach. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2016 : 00:15:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamora
I thought the faerzress was a spell put in place via high magic by the sun elves... For the loremasters on this site, does the spell actually do anything like what Bob is having Lolth say it does? I am wondering if this is just another thing Bob is creating out of thin air; like Shade falling in Aunorach.
That I know, the Lady Penitent books made up/retconned that as well. The Faerzress is what's left of the magic/energy of that originally shaped Toril and its Underdark, not some spell cast by the elves. It's a form of local magic, that the drow learned to harness to craft their items. It has nothing evil, although exposure to it has effects on creatures (for example, the drow innate magic--dancing lights, darkness etc--and magic resistance is supposed to be faerzress-induced, that I know. But those effects have nothing to do with alignment, and addiction to Faerzress wasn't supposed to be a thing, AFAIK).
The two things could be reconciled saying that the elves maybe altered the faerzress so that it would prevent teleportation and divination spells. That way the drow would be ''trapped'' down there. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 29 Apr 2016 00:22:24 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2016 : 00:25:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I don't quite get it. If the faerzress makes an area ''attuned'', so to speak, with the lower planes, that would make it easier for an outsider from there to roam the Underdark. However, why would it make impossible for a summoned creature to roam the surface, when there are countless cases of summoned demons doing that?
I assume that the ones in this case are ones who were "killed" on the Prime, and who are thus subject to that "can't come back for 100 years" thing. If the faerzress makes the Underdark count as not being on the Prime, then they can hang out there.
Again, just going with that one passage. I'm rather out of date with things that happen in FR novels.
I would also hope this effect is just some temporary thing, because if it's always been a property of faerzress, that's going to cause a lot of problems with logic and continuity. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2016 : 00:30:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I assume that the ones in this case are ones who were "killed" on the Prime, and who are thus subject to that "can't come back for 100 years" thing. If the faerzress makes the Underdark count as not being on the Prime, then they can hang out there.
Again, just going with that one passage. I'm rather out of date with things that happen in FR novels.
I would also hope this effect is just some temporary thing, because if it's always been a property of faerzress, that's going to cause a lot of problems with logic and continuity.
Ahh, I get what you're saying. But, given that among the summoned demons there is every major demon lord ever (Demogorgon, Orcus and so on), and that (as far as I know) they haven't been killed on the Prime in the last 100 years, I'm still puzzled about what that passage meant. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2016 : 16:55:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The way I'm reading it is that the faerzress itself is forming some sort of boundary between the Underdark and the world above.
Oops, sorry Wooly, the quote on its own is kind of misleading. I don't know that there's a singular passage that I can nab that'll accurately describe the events described in Archmage, but the long and short of it is that the faerzress is apparently the boundary between the Prime (so far as the Underdark is concerned) and the Abyss. The demon lords were able to cross over because Gromph was tricked into weakening the faerzress, which at full strength was apparently the key factor in preventing the most powerful demons from crossing over. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2016 : 17:06:01
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Lol, this is confusing as heck. So, the faerzress has become the only thing that prevents the demons from jumping into the Prime, it has been thinned, and the demons have phased in. How does this affect the demons when it comes to their ability to go to the surface? They are already in the Prime, the faerzress should have no effect on them, it's literally just about walking to the surface. And if the faerzress just generally acts as an anti-outsider barrier, since it was thinned and the demons passed through it, they should be able to go to the surface too :/
At this point it would have been better to just say that the demons tried to wreak havoc on the first thing that they found in their way (which would be perfectly IC) |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 29 Apr 2016 17:09:15 |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2016 : 17:06:13
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| Is Lolth the only diety that we've seen through official lore (in the form of Bob's novels) that intervenes as much as she does in mortal affairs? I don't know if it's my cynicism coloring my recollection, or if I've actually not read about any other gods and goddesses sticking their hands so far into what happens to a specific city on the Prime. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2016 : 17:09:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Lol, this is confusing as heck. So, the faerzress has become the only thing that prevents the demons from jumping into the Prime, it has been thinned, and the demons have phased in. How does this affect the demons when it comes to their ability to go to the surface? They are already in the Prime, the faerzress should have no effect on them, it's literally just about walking to the surface. And if the faerzress just generally acts as an anti-outsider barrier, since it was thinned and the demons passed through it, they should be able to go to the surface too :/
At this point it would have been better to just say that the demons just tried to wreak havoc on the first thing that they found in their way (which would be perfectly IC)
I think the justification is that the sun provides the sort of effect for the World Above as the (normal) faerzress does for the Underdark, so far as the demons' ability to cross over is concerned. I'm not sure how much confusion is coming from discontinuity with past lore and how much is due to the isolated nature of the passage that I quoted. I'll try to find more text to see if I can minimize the latter possibility. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2016 : 17:21:39
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A few unrelated questions real quick:
Is there any information on the magical properties of mithril? The way that I'm interpreting how it's used in Maestro, apparently it isn't meltable by lava? How would the dwarves shape it then?
“Magic was no longer as pure as in the long-lost days of Faerûn, and ancient secrets were deeply hidden from the folk of the modern world.” - 5th ed was supposed to have undone all that was done in 4th ed, so technically, shouldn’t magic have gone back to the way it was?
Does anyone else remember if Gromph's unusual colored eyes was mentioned ever in Bob's works? I've heard it established in the Starlight & Shadows series because of Liriel?
Does the word "Araunilcaurak" ring a bell for anyone, prior to its appearance in Maestro?
How old is Quenthal roughly? |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2016 : 17:22:59
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I didn't know that planar boundaries were powered by the sun (or by the faerzress), this is new lore to me. It's not that bad, tho, since (that I see) it doesn't negate previous lore, more like adds further details to it.
Either way, the thing is that, having crossed a planar boundary in the Underdark, the demons are now on the Prime, and could simply walk to the surface, if they wanted. They wouldn't need to cross other planar boundaries.
As for Lolth, she's definitely much more oppressive than most other deities, but she kinda needs to be. Given how she treats the drow, if she left them some freedom, they would likely seek something better, and her grasp would be loosened. Tyrants like her need extreme control/isolation/ignorance etc, to survive. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2016 : 17:42:54
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
A few unrelated questions real quick:
Is there any information on the magical properties of mithril? The way that I'm interpreting how it's used in Maestro, apparently it isn't meltable by lava? How would the dwarves shape it then?
“Magic was no longer as pure as in the long-lost days of Faerûn, and ancient secrets were deeply hidden from the folk of the modern world.” - 5th ed was supposed to have undone all that was done in 4th ed, so technically, shouldn’t magic have gone back to the way it was?
Does anyone else remember if Gromph's unusual colored eyes was mentioned ever in Bob's works? I've heard it established in the Starlight & Shadows series because of Liriel?
Does the word "Araunilcaurak" ring a bell for anyone, prior to its appearance in Maestro?
How old is Quenthal roughly?
I don't know if there's a canon birth date for Quenthel. Gromph is about 800 years old. Quenthel is supposed to be the youngest of the family, that I know, and therefore younger than him. In the 1370s she already was at very least >100-ish years old, since elves reach adulthood at around 100 years, more or less. I think she was older than 100, tho, since she participated to the siege of Mithral Hall, and since she was experienced enough to become mistress of Arach Tinilith after her resurrection. In the current era, I'd say, as a very rough guess, that she's >300 years old.
5e restored the Weave. 4e didn't really corrupt magic, that I know, it just reduced the Weave to strands (and it just was Mystra's rebooting it--letting herself be ''killed'', to reboot herself as well, since she *is* the Weave--because it had suffered too much damage). Perhaps, when talking about long-lost days, RAS refers to very ancient times, before all the reckless spellcasting and magical cataclysms and what you have damaged the Weave.
I can't help you about the rest. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 29 Apr 2016 18:02:59 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2016 : 17:48:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I didn't know that planar boundaries were powered by the sun (or by the faerzress), this is new lore to me. It's not that bad, tho, since (that I see) it doesn't negate previous lore, more like adds further details to it.
So far as I know, such a thing has never before been implied or hinted at.
My assumption -- and again, I've not been reading the books -- is that Lolth did something to change how faerzress works, to be able to pull off these planar shenanigans.
I really hope it is something new, because otherwise we've got to explain how this effect came into being and why it's never been a factor before. If it's not something new, I'd consider this to be a retcon, because having part of the Lower Planes just a little distance below the surface of the entire world is potential for some extreme nastiness, and the absence of prior nastiness has to be explained. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2016 : 22:15:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I didn't know that planar boundaries were powered by the sun (or by the faerzress), this is new lore to me. It's not that bad, tho, since (that I see) it doesn't negate previous lore, more like adds further details to it.
So far as I know, such a thing has never before been implied or hinted at.
My assumption -- and again, I've not been reading the books -- is that Lolth did something to change how faerzress works, to be able to pull off these planar shenanigans.
It would be weird, tho. She would have to tie the faerzress to the planar boundaries, and then have her drow weaken it so that demons would be able to pass through it. Assuming that she can even do something like that, causing a deep alteration to Toril (which is bound to draw attention by other forces), and changing a magic as ancient as the faerzress so deeply to boot, why wouldn't she simply open various portals? Demogorgon was summoned through a portal anyway :/
quote:
I really hope it is something new, because otherwise we've got to explain how this effect came into being and why it's never been a factor before. If it's not something new, I'd consider this to be a retcon, because having part of the Lower Planes just a little distance below the surface of the entire world is potential for some extreme nastiness, and the absence of prior nastiness has to be explained.
Yeah, you have a point there. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 29 Apr 2016 22:17:58 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2016 : 22:31:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
It would be weird, tho. She would have to tie the faerzress to the planar boundaries, and then have her drow weaken it so that demons would be able to pass through it. Assuming that she can even do something like that, causing a deep alteration to Toril (which is bound to draw attention by other forces), and changing a magic as ancient as the faerzress so deeply to boot, why wouldn't she simply open various portals? Demogorgon was summoned through a portal anyway :/
I would think it was some massive expenditure of power, on her part, or perhaps the drow used something akin to Elven High Magic, and altered (likely on a temporary basis) the radiation of faerzress to add the planar tweaking. Or perhaps the faerzress is anchoring that big spell, "fueling" it and keeping it in place.
Again, pure speculation on my part. I don't want to sound like a broken record by repeating myself, but I also want to make it clear that I'm just guessing, based on very limited data. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2016 : 23:54:17
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| It seems the other (and more problematic) alternative is the case, as it's not stated nor implied that Lolth has anything to do with this sudden new feature of the faerzress being a planar boundary. |
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CTrunks
Acolyte
Canada
20 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2016 : 09:19:36
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You know, thinking about it... I think the idea that demons summoned and bound through the faerzress can't go into sunlight makes some sense. Keep in mind, the following is pretty much all speculation.
So, do you remember how, back before Liriel managed to bring drow magic to the surface permanently through her rune, drow weapons, armor, and even magic would eventually stop functioning on the surface, especially once exposed to sunlight? And how, at least from what I can tell, most drow cities were built in areas with a lot of faerzress, which meant the radiating magic rocks were probably used for crafting those items, and would also seep into the drow themselves? I think that the magic binding the demons is working on a similar principle; the magic binding them there simply doesn't hold up to exposure to natural light, and would sever the binding. And the only reason why it's even possible now, when it wasn't a blip on the radar before, is because of the events of Storm of the Dead; remember, the faerzress got a rather hefty boost in potency from the voidstone being used by Kiaransalee's followers.
Further, it makes me wonder if using the faerzress to summon all of these major demon lords wasn't part of her plan for after she had control of the Abyss. If the stuff is being used to help keep the drow underground, what happens when its gone? Say, by being drained through keeping the demon lords summoned for an extended period of time while she takes control of the Abyss and grows even stronger?
Admittedly, it's a stretch and a half, and hopefully Lolth will find a hobby for a while, but you never know... |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2016 : 09:36:19
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Regarding the faerzress being drained, from what sno4wy posted, it seems to me that its magic creates a planar barrier, and that its (supposedly) temporary thinning made it possible for the demons to invade Toril.
That said, the fact that drow can use their magic on the surface doesn't mean that the Faerzress extends there (therefore extending the supposed planar barrier we are just now finding out it is). In fact, its property of making teleportation and divination unreliable (which is what is keeping the drow at bay, I prefer to handwave the addiction-inducing property or ''sun elven ritual'' that was forced on it with the LP novels, and then 100% ignored--like most stuff from those books--, merely as the PoV of whoever discovered that), doesn not extend to the surface, so why would its other properties do?
And if you mean that faerzress magic powers the binding (which, as I said, from what I've understood, shouldn't be the case), then it should 100% work on the surface, given that Liriel made faerzress work there as well. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 02 May 2016 09:37:35 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2016 : 09:54:01
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| If we took in account the events in SotD, the matter would get even worse. Since the faerzress empowered, to what degree would the current thinning affect its intensity? It would raise even more doubts as to why the bad guys are only now realizing that they could cross that barrier... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CTrunks
Acolyte
Canada
20 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2016 : 12:25:42
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To the first post, that was kinda my point. The faerzress doesn't extend to the surface, and since - according to Underdark, anyway - they were using some of the magic radiating off of it to forge weapons, armor, and other artifacts (not to mention how the drow lost their innate abilities on the surface, prior to Tangled Webs - which is hilariously made suspect by Drizzt retaining his ability to use Faerie Fire and drop Darkness globes), its effects could have been outright negated by exposure to sunlight. And while Liriel's rune brought drow magic to the surface, the effects on the faerzress itself might still linger.
As for how it's actually working... assuming that parts of SotD are still canon, it would have to boil down to two things.
1) While the voidstone did empower the faerzress, the thinning of the planar barriers might not have been immediate. It might have taken the better part of the century between SotD and Archmage (or Maestro) to erode it enough to make this possible.
2) As for how it would work, I guess it would almost have to be done in a similar fashion to how the demons were bound to the mythal in The Forsaken House. Where the magic of the faerzress serves as a battery to keep them bound, but with the downside of being undone if exposed to sunlight.
Don't get me wrong, I am stretching like Mister Fantastic to justify this without just assuming the answer is "because reasons we might explain later", and it does involve acknowledging a trilogy that I think everyone would love to forget ever happened, but... I'm not sure what else it could be. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2016 : 13:36:42
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I appreciated the discussion and your contribution in trying to reconcile the lore in Archmage with previous faerzress lore, but I still have a few doubts.
Liriel's rune borught faerzress magic on the surface, that I know. Drow had no problem using Weave/divine magic there, before she did.
The Faerzress being used as a battery seems counterintuitive to me, given that--according to what's been said in Archmage--the radiation is acting like a planar barrier. If it was used as a battery, then why wouldn't the summoning work on the surface, differently from other faerzress-based magic? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 02 May 2016 15:29:05 |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2016 : 15:10:07
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| Is this the part where we put our faces in our hands and sob quietly? |
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He better not!( MASSIVE SPOILERS FOR MAESTRO HERE)
