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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Apr 2016 : 03:49:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Sothron
Another problem I have: why is House Baenre allowed to be First House for, you know, forever? Isn't Lolth supposed to be a goddess of Chaos here or something folks? How much "chaos" can you have when the same House is in charge forever and nothing ever changes that?
I'm hoping we see Baenre wiped out in the next book and a whole new society structure put in place or at least something different than the status quo.
Lolth isn't really a goddess of chaos. If she was, she wouldn't have her priestesses kill anyone who dares to think that there's an alternative to the current life, embrace a different faith, or question her ''kill or be killed'' society. Chaos isn't only random conflicts, it's also variety, it's also change towards a better direction, development, exploring new perspectives and so on. That simply doesn't exist among Lolth's followers, they actually are the epitome of stagnation.
Judging by her actions, Lolth is a deity of strife and tyranny that poses as a deity of chaos, but just actually wants to keep her followers isolated, brainwashed and too busy killing each other and trying to make their own life miserable to realize that they are just slaves. I mean, her own dogma is what prevents them from putting her two apparent goals in practice (conquer the Underdark, then exact revenge on the surface-dwellers).
If Lolth actually embraced chaos, she'd have to change her whole ''ideology'', because the drow would quickly abandon her.
Given that Baenre=tradition=a good thing in Lolth's book, it makes sense that she refuses to do anything about that. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 24 Apr 2016 03:50:32 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2016 : 03:50:36
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| There is plenty of chaos within the Baenre household, and Lolth also tends to favor the Baenres, if in a fickle way. The irony of chaos is that in order to have it, you need its counter--order. Baenre is the order within the chaos, though again, there has been chaos within Baenre. And it isn't as if other Houses haven't tried. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Lamora
Seeker
USA
81 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2016 : 04:36:37
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I am not sure the favoritism Lolth had for Yvonnel can be called a 'little'. Lolth has literally given her the keys to everything or so it seems. Maybe the Baenre can fall if she dies in the next book? But Baenre will never dwindle as long as Yvonnel still lives because Lolth has already favored her above all other drow.
There has probably always been a divide between most FR novels and Bob's works, and I just never noticed it before. But these last few books that divide has become a huge trench. This last book particularly just had such a difference between the lore (and even a printed, highly sold book in Herald) and Bob's narrative. I don't know. If Bob wanted to get rid of the Baenre, I almost think that his book would get printed anyway. Maybe Hero will surprise me, and bring the series back within the lore of the Realms. |
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RK
Acolyte
8 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2016 : 20:08:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Sothron
3. This is how Tiago goes out? Really? This guy has been built up over how many books now just to go out like that? Pshaw. What a complete waste of a character. This fight lasted I think 3 pages in the book? And it ended up like, to borrow a pro wrestling meme, LOL CENA er DRIZZT WINS! where the good guy takes all the damage, gets his ass kinda handed to him but somehow makes one move at the very end and that's the end of the match folks. Unreal.
5. Apparently "Yvonnel" is the nicest freaking evil avatar ever. I give no help to Tiago, don't resurrect him after he dies and oh yeah, here, I'll just literally give you and all your friends back all your magical gear PLUS throw in Tiago's gear on top of that.
I agree on #3 here. RAS spent several books playing up Tiago as a serious contender, and then, during "Rise of the King" has him conquering Sundabar. The image of Tiago astride Arauthator holding Firehelm's severed head led me to believe that Tiago could at some point leave Menzo entirely and be a strong force of selfish evil in the Realms.
***on a side note, Since Drizzt used the shield for a variation of the old Ghost Step routine...Tiago couldn't see him  .***
Which leads to number 5. What are the folk of Sundabar, much less the rest of Luraur, going to think when they see Drizzt with Tiago's sword and shield.
Orbcress (the shield) is basically a size-changing spiderweb, emblematic of Lolth. I don't recall many drow carrying shields over the years I've read, and thought as much when Gol'Fanin presented the weapons to Tiago.
If Drizzt keeps Orbcress (aka Spiderweb), he's carrying around symbolism of Lolth, which would fit Yvonnel's intentions anyway.
And now, with all of Menzoberranzan seeing Drizzt as the savior of their city (and even Yvonnel being surprised by the lengths Drizzt was willing to go to in order to save them), Drizzt comes closer to being the Champion or Chosen of Lolth, whether he likes it or not.
He's going to walk back to the surface looking like the Chosen of Lolth, and not caring either way because he thinks he's already dead and trapped in a giant illusion.
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Want to learn how to make $50,000 in the first month? Me too. |
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Adhriva
Learned Scribe
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2016 : 21:42:55
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| I imagine alot of that is intentional as it questions what it means to be a hero and what it means to see a hero fall....among other such related themes that I think it would be fun to explore with a character like Drizzt |
Professional illustrator and comic book artist.
Portfolio |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2016 : 02:07:29
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Tiago is a male. Yvonnel cares nothing about him.
We've known since his introduction that Drizzt would kill Tiago. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2016 : 04:14:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
As I posted in the other thread, Drizzt killing Demogorgon was the low point, and where Bob trolls longtime realms fans a bit.
Drizzt killed Demogorgan!!!!
Bwahahahahahahahahahaaaha!!!!
Bobby, you and Wizards have now reached an all time low. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2016 : 18:00:12
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| All the archers, priests and wizards in Menzoberanzan and many illithids in the hive city killed Demogorgon |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2016 : 20:10:21
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| Going kind of on a tangent, but isn't "killing" Demogorgon on the Prime just banishing him to the Abyss for 100 years? Or does that rule not apply to the demon lords? |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2016 : 20:14:54
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
Going kind of on a tangent, but isn't "killing" Demogorgon on the Prime just banishing him to the Abyss for 100 years? Or does that rule not apply to the demon lords?
That I know, it applies to all outsiders, including gods. But given WotC's past decisions, when it comes to continuity, I don't know if they even care about that. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 25 Apr 2016 20:15:32 |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2016 : 21:44:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
Going kind of on a tangent, but isn't "killing" Demogorgon on the Prime just banishing him to the Abyss for 100 years? Or does that rule not apply to the demon lords?
That I know, it applies to all outsiders, including gods. But given WotC's past decisions, when it comes to continuity, I don't know if they even care about that.
x_____x
I don't even know what else to say anymore. ._. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2016 : 21:50:31
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| Just to avoid misunderstandings, Idk if WotC has actually removed Demogorgon because Drizzt&the drow of Menzo truly ''killed'' him (they haven't said anything), I just stated my impression. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 25 Apr 2016 21:50:41 |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2016 : 22:00:32
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| There is a difference between being summoned and actually coming in through a gate. When an entity walks through a gate then it is actually there and not just summoned. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2016 : 22:06:14
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| Demogorgon was summoned, so--in theory--he should be still alive. I think that he should be even if he was beaten after having walked through a portal, given that he's basically a god. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Sothron
Acolyte
16 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2016 : 22:24:49
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
Going kind of on a tangent, but isn't "killing" Demogorgon on the Prime just banishing him to the Abyss for 100 years? Or does that rule not apply to the demon lords?
It is supposed to banish them for 100 years. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2016 : 19:13:17
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It seems that the agreement is that Drizzt "killling" Demogorgon only banished him to the Abyss for 100 years. My follow-up question then would be, why would Lolth be celebrating his death then, as Yvonnel said that she is? Wasn't her entire purpose to get the demon lords out of the Abyss? Is the idea then that she's finished whatever she needed them to vacate the Abyss for?
Even if that were the case, what does she care if the demon lords remained on the Prime and rampaged through the Underdark? I mean, I can see her being unhappy with things if they ate all of her followers, but that doesn't seem to be the first goal on any of their minds. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2016 : 19:24:05
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I've read that Lolth was laying eggs to give birth to hundreds of demon lords and replace the actual demon lords of the Abyss with her spawn. According to WotC, that would have netted her the control of the whole Abyss, and she only needed the demon lords to wander the Prime for whatever time it would take her eggs to disclose. What I get from this, is that the newborn demon lords were supposed to conquer the whole Abyss and drive all demons into submission by the time of the return of Demogorgon&Co (since they had to be strong enough/muster enough ''allies'' to beat the legitimate owners of the layers upon their return).
The fact that Lolth is celebrating Demogorgon's death means that WotC is ignoring how that stuff is supposed to work in the Realms, or that he was killed by Lolth's spawn in the Abyss, or that Yvonnel's lying for whatever reason.
Btw, does this mean that Lolth controls the Abyss now?
Either way, if WotC actually killed Demogorgon like that, then it would be just one more example of why the FR metaplot has become a joke (actually, it has become Lolth constantly putting in action random plans, while no one ever does anything about that, or is smart or strong enough to stand a chance against her). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 26 Apr 2016 19:26:00 |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2016 : 21:15:37
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I guess this means that it'd be pointless at this juncture to speculate further about what exactly the events in Maestro mean in the global scheme when it comes to the Abyss, Lolth, the demon lords, etc. :
Putting that large mess aside for now and turning to the Netherese, it was talked about some earlier in this thread, but I'm still a bit confused. I understand that the Shade Enclave mentioned in Bob's books wasn't talked about in any of the other Realms canon, but wasn't the returned Netheril Empire huge and comprising of several floating cities? I agree that it's a bit odd that more than one of them would be referred to as *the* Shade, but just for the sake of playing Devil's Advocate, would it at all be conceivable that a possible explanation for Bob's Shade Enclave being separate from the ones that appear in the other novels that it's just one of many floating cities? |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2016 : 21:19:30
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| It's possible, but didn't he refer to the "ruins" of Shade at one point? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 26 Apr 2016 21:25:21 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2016 : 21:28:50
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My understanding is that Thultanthar (Shade) is the only enclave that survived the Fall of Netheril, and they did because Telamont was experimenting with the magic of the Shadow Plane, and had plane-shifted his enclave to the Shadow Plane before Karsus cast his spell. When they returned to Toril, they found their empire shattered, and went back to the Shadow Plane (to prepare some kind of vengeance against the Pherimm, that they had blamed for the fall of the other enclaves).
In 1372, only Shade came back. In 1479 DR, they were trying to restore another fallen enclave, Xinlenal (this is the 4e Neverwinter CS), but--IIRC--they never actually managed to get it to fly again (its mythallar was ''dead'').
Idk if they created further flying enclaves, but the ''return of Netheril'' was more like the ''return of Shade''. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 26 Apr 2016 21:33:21 |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2016 : 21:44:44
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| Thanks for the info Irennan! Can I trouble you to point me in the direction of the books I should read to learn more about this matter? I've got the Return of the Archwizards trilogy in my list and I've read The Sundering books. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2016 : 21:52:30
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
Thanks for the info Irennan! Can I trouble you to point me in the direction of the books I should read to learn more about this matter? I've got the Return of the Archwizards trilogy in my list and I've read The Sundering books.
There's the ''Netheril: Empire of Magic'' sourcebook, if you want to read more about the empire in general. ''Lost Empires of Fearun'' and the ''Grand History of the Realms'' also come to mind, for sourcebooks.
As for the novels, there's the Netheril trilogy (''Sword Play'', ''Dangerous Games'', ''Mortal Consequences'').
If you want to read more about the Shadovar, there's the ''Twilight War'' trilogy (by Paul Kemp), in which they conquer Sembia. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 26 Apr 2016 21:53:18 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2016 : 21:58:06
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"Lost Empires of Faerun" and "Grand History" are both good sourcebooks, though I have not read all the way through them. They're good if I want to look up something. I don't have the "Nethril: Empire of Magic".
Kemp's "Twilight Wars" are great books. They held my attention. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2016 : 23:35:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I've read that Lolth was laying eggs to give birth to hundreds of demon lords and replace the actual demon lords of the Abyss with her spawn. According to WotC, that would have netted her the control of the whole Abyss, and she only needed the demon lords to wander the Prime for whatever time it would take her eggs to disclose. What I get from this, is that the newborn demon lords were supposed to conquer the whole Abyss and drive all demons into submission by the time of the return of Demogorgon&Co (since they had to be strong enough/muster enough ''allies'' to beat the legitimate owners of the layers upon their return).
The fact that Lolth is celebrating Demogorgon's death means that WotC is ignoring how that stuff is supposed to work in the Realms, or that he was killed by Lolth's spawn in the Abyss, or that Yvonnel's lying for whatever reason.
Btw, does this mean that Lolth controls the Abyss now?
Either way, if WotC actually killed Demogorgon like that, then it would be just one more example of why the FR metaplot has become a joke (actually, it has become Lolth constantly putting in action random plans, while no one ever does anything about that, or is smart or strong enough to stand a chance against her).
Wow! So now they are using the long time established demon lords as cannon fodder in order to push their stupid agenda. I guess nothing is sacred anymore. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2016 : 14:31:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Wow! So now they are using the long time established demon lords as cannon fodder in order to push their stupid agenda. I guess nothing is sacred anymore.
Pardon my ignorance on the matter, but will you enlighten me as to what agenda you're referring to? |
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CTrunks
Acolyte
Canada
20 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2016 : 08:22:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
My understanding is that Thultanthar (Shade) is the only enclave that survived the Fall of Netheril, and they did because Telamont was experimenting with the magic of the Shadow Plane, and had plane-shifted his enclave to the Shadow Plane before Karsus cast his spell. When they returned to Toril, they found their empire shattered, and went back to the Shadow Plane (to prepare some kind of vengeance against the Pherimm, that they had blamed for the fall of the other enclaves).
In 1372, only Shade came back. In 1479 DR, they were trying to restore another fallen enclave, Xinlenal (this is the 4e Neverwinter CS), but--IIRC--they never actually managed to get it to fly again (its mythallar was ''dead'').
Idk if they created further flying enclaves, but the ''return of Netheril'' was more like the ''return of Shade''.
I think it was mentioned in Gauntlgrym that Netheril had managed to get a second city flying (Sakkors according to the FR wiki, but I think the enclave mentioned in the book was a different one), and Alegni had been sent to the Neverwinter region in search of Xinlenal. I'd have to double check and I really can't be arsed to find my copy and check. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2016 : 14:07:19
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| Thanks for the information, I had forgotten about Sakkors. However, according to the FRWiki, it crashed too, in Sembia (in ''The Godborn'', which I still have to read). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 28 Apr 2016 14:08:45 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2016 : 16:00:54
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| Oh, right, it's coming back to me now. I remember Sakkors. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2016 : 17:07:19
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Wow! So now they are using the long time established demon lords as cannon fodder in order to push their stupid agenda. I guess nothing is sacred anymore.
Pardon my ignorance on the matter, but will you enlighten me as to what agenda you're referring to?
Same old agenda they had when they thought the Spellplague was a great idea. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2016 : 19:29:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Wow! So now they are using the long time established demon lords as cannon fodder in order to push their stupid agenda. I guess nothing is sacred anymore.
Pardon my ignorance on the matter, but will you enlighten me as to what agenda you're referring to?
Same old agenda they had when they thought the Spellplague was a great idea.
The one where they're ruining the world? o: |
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He better not!( MASSIVE SPOILERS FOR MAESTRO HERE)
