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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Mar 2016 : 17:05:32
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Are there any lost gods of the Realms that really haven't been mentioned in the source books?
I want to say I read somewhere you can find temple throughout the Realms dedicated to lost gods. Not sure but I believe I read that somewhere.
Do you lads have any knowledge of old and ancient gods that are now gone but really weren't mentioned in the source books?
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“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2016 : 18:10:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Are there any lost gods of the Realms that really haven't been mentioned in the source books?
We don't know, because they haven't been mentioned. 
There are passing references scattered around in a lot of places; often nothing more than "a forgotten deity" or "a fallen deity of this thing." |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2016 : 18:44:48
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I think it was in the the War of the Spider Queen or Lady Penitent books, I can't remember, where Halistra was in a swamp and she found a temple or ruins or a temple or something that was dedicated to some lost god.
Am I mistaken on that? |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2016 : 19:47:59
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Isnt that Zanassu in the spider swamp.
Ahhhh I think your right. Zanassu was absorbed by Selvetarm I believe. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2016 : 20:03:59
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Isnt that Zanassu in the spider swamp.
Ahhhh I think your right. Zanassu was absorbed by Selvetarm I believe.
If you go for that deific soap opera kind of thing. Never again will I be content with a statement that a metaphorical being sustained and empowered by the belief of mortal creatures can absorb another similar being
Same here. In my Realms, Ibrandul is still much alive and still being worshiped. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2388 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2016 : 22:14:37
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| We know of at least of Yuir pantheon (omnomnom'ed by the Seldarine) and "Seven Lost Gods" (of whom there are two sets * *) |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2016 : 02:05:33
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Eric Boyd, in all his writings, not just the "god series" was assiduous about mining the sources for deity references. I'm not sure that there are any undetailed ones left!
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2016 : 02:43:35
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| Valigan Thirdborn has little info |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2016 : 04:38:54
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Valigan Thirdborn has little info
Indeed. Ditto for Murdane, some of the deities slain by the Dark Three, and that minor goddess that may or may not be imprisoned under the High Moor. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2016 : 06:25:09
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Not to mention the Primordial deities that may be considered lost gods.
Just curious, how many times has "lost gods" come up as a new thread/topic? I know it's quite a lot. Some of them are addressed in the FAQ topic "Seven Lost Gods". |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2016 : 06:42:27
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| Only few of Seven Lost Gods are not mentioned (and they are talked about as primordials not gods). Yuir venerate Seldarine as clearly stated in UE. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2016 : 11:16:44
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Isnt that Zanassu in the spider swamp.
Ahhhh I think your right. Zanassu was absorbed by Selvetarm I believe.
If you go for that deific soap opera kind of thing. Never again will I be content with a statement that a metaphorical being sustained and empowered by the belief of mortal creatures can absorb another similar being
Zanassu was a tanar'ri prince, not a deity. Lolth munched him while she was still a tanar'ri. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2016 : 13:40:00
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Zanassu was a tanar'ri prince, not a deity. Lolth munched him while she was still a tanar'ri.
That I recall, Lolth tricked Selvetarm into doing that (she told him that he would have made Eilistraee proud, or something along those lines). He killed the demon, and was corrupted. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2016 : 14:52:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Zanassu was a tanar'ri prince, not a deity. Lolth munched him while she was still a tanar'ri.
That I recall, Lolth tricked Selvetarm into doing that (she told him that he would have made Eilistraee proud, or something along those lines). He killed the demon, and was corrupted.
You are correct. See page 34 of Demihuman Deities, which remains one of my go-to sources for Realms deities. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2388 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2016 : 16:31:21
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
If you go for that deific soap opera kind of thing. Never again will I be content with a statement that a metaphorical being sustained and empowered by the belief of mortal creatures can absorb another similar being
It's kind of commonplace?
Including the last update in Monster Mythology (Garyx).
And constant mentions such as Tempus not doing it on purpose, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Zanassu was a tanar'ri prince, not a deity. Lolth munched him while she was still a tanar'ri.
How exactly do you define deity / not a deity?
Was Zanassu already venerated by Aranea?.. Did he grant spells?..
The thin hard lines between planar lords, layer lords, deities and other powers may well not exist at all.
Also, "while she was still a tanar'ri"? What about Araushnee the Weaver?.. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2016 : 07:36:36
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Being able to grant spells isn't a trait exclusive to deities. Deities tend to be born and/or sustained from mortal devotion and belief while planar lords aren't.
Lolth started out as a tanar'ri and only became a fallen deity in the Forgotten Realms, detailed in Elves of Evermeet. Whether the tanar'ri Lolth corrupted Corellon's wife and the two merged is anyone's guess even though officially the Weaver was stripped of her divinity and became the Abyssal Prince Lolth.
The official lore then paints the drow pantheon as being really dumb, since Kiaransalee and Vhaeraun should've shanked her then. There's precedent since Kiaransalee murdered Orcus.
Then Lolth became a goddess again, despite treating half her servant race like crap. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2016 : 10:09:53
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Being able to grant spells isn't a trait exclusive to deities. Deities tend to be born and/or sustained from mortal devotion and belief while planar lords aren't.
Lolth started out as a tanar'ri and only became a fallen deity in the Forgotten Realms, detailed in Elves of Evermeet. Whether the tanar'ri Lolth corrupted Corellon's wife and the two merged is anyone's guess even though officially the Weaver was stripped of her divinity and became the Abyssal Prince Lolth.
The official lore then paints the drow pantheon as being really dumb, since Kiaransalee and Vhaeraun should've shanked her then. There's precedent since Kiaransalee murdered Orcus.
Then Lolth became a goddess again, despite treating half her servant race like crap.
Kiaransalee and Ghaunadaur could have. Vhaeraun and Eilistraee were sort of wandering on Toril back then, IIRC, even before Lolth's attention was drawn to that world. Then, ironically, she managed to rise to power also thanks to the elves, who exterminated a lot of followers of both twins (with the Sundering, that destroyed a lot of old Ilythiir, and the Dark Disaster that destroyed Miyeritar). Plus, Vhaeraun wasn't even in conflict with his mother back then, it started only when she began to make the drow wither. Something similar goes for Eilistraee (at the time she was pained by her mother's betrayal, but wouldn't have gone out of her way to kill Lolth).
Either way, just remember that we're talking about the goddess who becomes a greater deity by losing a lot of followers (and she treates all her servant race like crap)... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 03 Mar 2016 10:39:21 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2016 : 13:11:25
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I prefer the idea that Lolth and Araushnee were two different beings, then one ate the other. Lolth was the tanar'ri turned deity who subjugated Kiaransalee, and then corrupted Araushnee and merged with her.
Somewhere deep inside Lolth, Araushnee is screaming, and she will continue screaming till the day the Planes are unravelled. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2016 : 13:41:50
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| I have something similar in my Realms, but Araushnee was used and twisted, rather than eaten, and her mind was made numb and shattered in multiple conflicting shards, by Shar, for a very specific plan. But I've changed a lot in that regard: for example, all elven deities are ascended mortals, Araushnee's betrayal--who was less of a betrayal and more a matter of conflicting views--played out on a mortal level, and led to a war and a schism among elves, which happened after their arrival on Toril, and in which Shar played an important role. However, in my version Araushnee is not doomed: Lolth's Silence is actually tied with her plan to gain back control over herself, and Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are both part of that. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 03 Mar 2016 13:46:58 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2388 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2016 : 14:32:46
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Being able to grant spells isn't a trait exclusive to deities. Deities tend to be born and/or sustained from mortal devotion and belief while planar lords aren't.
As far as most mortals are concerned, Elemental Lords are gods. And for all intent and purpose they are - except it's a "second job" to them.
Then there's Lady of Pain, who put a lot of effort into not becoming a goddess...
quote:
Lolth started out as a tanar'ri and only became a fallen deity in the Forgotten Realms, detailed in Elves of Evermeet. Whether the tanar'ri Lolth corrupted Corellon's wife and the two merged is anyone's guess
Does this fit any particular version? And it's not a complete picture on its own, since the halves are not connected - you just let the tracks dissolve in bushes when they approach the same issue of "merging" from either side.
quote:
even though officially the Weaver was stripped of her divinity and became the Abyssal Prince Lolth. [...] Then Lolth became a goddess again
And this makes more sense? 
quote:
The official lore then paints the drow pantheon as being really dumb, since Kiaransalee and Vhaeraun should've shanked her then. There's precedent since Kiaransalee murdered Orcus.
With Lolth and Araushnee the Weaver being two entirely different entities connected in undefined way, it's not "the official lore", it's your cherry-picked subset of the official lore.
Also, do we know when exactly Kiaransalee ascended? Possibly later, so it's only Vhaeraun. And what would he do without mommy dear, stand against the Seldarine on his own?
Even after the matters settled the worst way, with Lolth explicitly opposed to him, she still draws all the fire, and he ends up at worst de-prioritized as "lesser evil" and at best completely out of limelight - which is what he wants, what's with being thieving sort.
quote:
despite treating half her servant race like crap.
How so?
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I have something similar in my Realms, but Araushnee was used and twisted, rather than eaten, and her mind was made numb and shattered in multiple conflicting shards, by Shar
It's the same "one MEGAVILLAIN behind EVERYTHING" pitfall into which Drizzt fans fall, only with Shar it's 3e version. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2016 : 14:49:01
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
despite treating half her servant race like crap.
How so?
C'mon, all the crap that the drow are forced to take since childhood is due to her dogma being enforced by her clergy. Setting that aside, even in ''The Drow of the Underdark'' it is explicitly stated that, if it wasn't for Lolth's dogma, they would likely be in a far better situation (like dominating the Underdark).
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I have something similar in my Realms, but Araushnee was used and twisted, rather than eaten, and her mind was made numb and shattered in multiple conflicting shards, by Shar
It's the same "one MEGAVILLAIN behind EVERYTHING" pitfall into which Drizzt fans fall, only with Shar it's 3e version.
Yes, I know. But in my version of the setting, Shar isn't as prominent as she is in canon. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 03 Mar 2016 15:52:40 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2016 : 01:50:17
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Being able to grant spells isn't a trait exclusive to deities. Deities tend to be born and/or sustained from mortal devotion and belief while planar lords aren't.
Lolth started out as a tanar'ri and only became a fallen deity in the Forgotten Realms, detailed in Elves of Evermeet. Whether the tanar'ri Lolth corrupted Corellon's wife and the two merged is anyone's guess even though officially the Weaver was stripped of her divinity and became the Abyssal Prince Lolth.
The official lore then paints the drow pantheon as being really dumb, since Kiaransalee and Vhaeraun should've shanked her then. There's precedent since Kiaransalee murdered Orcus.
Then Lolth became a goddess again, despite treating half her servant race like crap.
You know.... I never once thought of it that way... that Araushnee was a separate entity from Lolth. I always did the whole "she was cast out and took on a new name". However, that puts a spin on it that I'm not sure if I do or don't like.... but its at least an option I hadn't considered. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2388 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2016 : 06:29:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
despite treating half her servant race like crap.
How so?
C'mon, all the crap that the drow are forced to take since childhood is due to her dogma being enforced by her clergy.
I mean, why "half"?
quote:
Setting that aside, even in ''The Drow of the Underdark'' it is explicitly stated that, if it wasn't for Lolth's dogma, they would likely be in a far better situation (like dominating the Underdark).
Worded exactly how?
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I never once thought of it that way... that Araushnee was a separate entity from Lolth. I always did the whole "she was cast out and took on a new name". However, that puts a spin on it that I'm not sure if I do or don't like....
I don't like it, but it took me a little while to pinpoint why: essentially, because this looks like yet another whitewashing of the elves. Nope, they aren't fuzzy and cuddly, nor are their gods.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2016 : 11:43:30
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
As far as most mortals are concerned, Elemental Lords are gods. And for all intent and purpose they are - except it's a "second job" to them.
Then there's Lady of Pain, who put a lot of effort into not becoming a goddess...
The Lady does not grant spells and brutally slaughtered the last idiot god who tried to subvert her dabus.
The Lords of the Nine and many demon princes are not gods, and yet they grant spells. Anthraxus is not a god, and he grants spells despite being one of the godless yugoloths.
quote:
Does this fit any particular version? And it's not a complete picture on its own, since the halves are not connected - you just let the tracks dissolve in bushes when they approach the same issue of "merging" from either side.
There was a Lolth that was the Demon Queen of Spiders and patron of the drow. Araushnee's first appearance came much later, and the drow creation tale that stars her is pretty exclusive to the Realms.
So either Araushnee fell and became Lolth, or there was a Lolth and there was an Araushnee, and one subsumed the other, or there was a Lolth and Araushnee was just a disguise made for trolling Corellon.
quote:
And this makes more sense?
Uh...it's FR canon that Corellon named Araushnee tanar'ri and cast her into the Abyss, where she became a tana'ri lord who then clawed back to godhood. So was Orcus, it's not like there wasn't precedent.
quote:
With Lolth and Araushnee the Weaver being two entirely different entities connected in undefined way, it's not "the official lore", it's your cherry-picked subset of the official lore.
Again, FR canon that Araushnee became Lolth. Kiaransalee isn't a Faerunian god, she's a multispheric deity and started off as a mortal drow that turned her home world into a necropolis, then ascended to godhood. If anything, she's actually older than the FR Lolth and was a demigoddess when Lolth was cast down as an Abyssal Prince.
She could've shanked Lolth, made off with her portfolio and then masqueraded as her, but somehow she didn't.
quote:
Also, do we know when exactly Kiaransalee ascended? Possibly later, so it's only Vhaeraun. And what would he do without mommy dear, stand against the Seldarine on his own?
According to Wiki, Kiaransalee ascended 30,000 years ago and was already a power when the FR legends state Lolth fell as a demon prince.
quote:
How so?
The male drow.
quote:
I don't like it, but it took me a little while to pinpoint why: essentially, because this looks like yet another whitewashing of the elves. Nope, they aren't fuzzy and cuddly, nor are their gods.
Truly, a goddess being corrupted by a demon prince who then eats her is 'whitewashing'.
Corellon isn't perfect, but he's not malicious. Araushnee is specific to the Forgotten Realms, while Monster Mythology paints a very different version of the drow exodus to the Underdark.
And it's worth noting that the Lord of the Seldarine is a war god in addition to his other portfolios. There's nothing light or fuzzy about the guy who beat the snot out of Gruumsh. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2016 : 13:15:19
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Again, FR canon that Araushnee became Lolth. Kiaransalee isn't a Faerunian god, she's a multispheric deity and started off as a mortal drow that turned her home world into a necropolis, then ascended to godhood. If anything, she's actually older than the FR Lolth and was a demigoddess when Lolth was cast down as an Abyssal Prince.
She could've shanked Lolth, made off with her portfolio and then masqueraded as her, but somehow she didn't.
What says that Kiaransalee even knew about Lolth? The planes are a really big place - it's not like every single deity is going to automatically know the power level and portfolios of every single powerful entity out there. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2016 : 13:36:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What says that Kiaransalee even knew about Lolth? The planes are a really big place - it's not like every single deity is going to automatically know the power level and portfolios of every single powerful entity out there.
They were at odds in Elaine's Evermeet, IIRC. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2016 : 14:06:24
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Setting that aside, even in ''The Drow of the Underdark'' it is explicitly stated that, if it wasn't for Lolth's dogma, they would likely be in a far better situation (like dominating the Underdark).
Worded exactly how?
It says that the constant strife in their society likely is the only factor that prevents them from taking over all the other races in the Underdark. And we know that such strife basically is the main tenet in Lolth's dogma.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Lost gods of the Realms not mentioned.
