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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Mar 2016 : 15:16:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What says that Kiaransalee even knew about Lolth? The planes are a really big place - it's not like every single deity is going to automatically know the power level and portfolios of every single powerful entity out there.
They were at odds in Elaine's Evermeet, IIRC.
At what point? Was this after Lolth had become a deity?
And demon lords and such are still pretty freaking powerful, and not necessarily a pushover for a deity -- if they were, we wouldn't have any demon lords. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2016 : 15:23:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What says that Kiaransalee even knew about Lolth? The planes are a really big place - it's not like every single deity is going to automatically know the power level and portfolios of every single powerful entity out there.
They were at odds in Elaine's Evermeet, IIRC.
At what point? Was this after Lolth had become a deity?
My memory is foggy, but I think happened before Lolth became interested in the world of Toril, so I guess pre-deity.
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And demon lords and such are still pretty freaking powerful, and not necessarily a pushover for a deity -- if they were, we wouldn't have any demon lords.
Sure, wasn't discussing this. At the end of the day, they're all incredibily poweful creatures. When it comes to them, ''Power level measurements'' are rather meaningless IMO, and they kind of kill the fun and bring all sorts of problems (like ''why doesn't X wipe Y, who is their enemy and far less powerful than them?''). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2392 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2016 : 19:59:56
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
As far as most mortals are concerned, Elemental Lords are gods. And for all intent and purpose they are - except it's a "second job" to them.
Then there's Lady of Pain, who put a lot of effort into not becoming a goddess...
The Lady does not grant spells and brutally slaughtered the last idiot god who tried to subvert her dabus.
She has a habit of flaying alive everyone who tries to worship her in Sigil. Which means this matters. Whether you accept Pages of Pain as canon or not, the theory that this would interfere with keeping gods out of Sigil is simply the most obvious.
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The Lords of the Nine and many demon princes are not gods, and yet they grant spells. Anthraxus is not a god, and he grants spells despite being one of the godless yugoloths.
Yup. Thus, there are all sorts of powers, combining traits in various ways, and such designations tell more about their allegiances and modus operandi than their nature.
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And this makes more sense? 
Uh...it's FR canon that Corellon named Araushnee tanar'ri and cast her into the Abyss, where she became a tana'ri lord who then clawed back to godhood.
Banishment is one thing, stripping someone of divinity without killing may be a bit trickier, or every big scary deity would do so now and then. Since she ended up among the Abyssal Lords, it looks like she was still a power, just cut off from pantheon (which is what gives clerics some advantages over speciality priests) and probably had her followers converted or excommunicated (until this point they were part of Seldarine worshippers).
The part where dark elves of a later age knew where to apply, but didn't have set form for worship means they played it by old memories/legends/records - if this was an active recruitment, her messengers could simply tell the converts what she likes. But if worship of Araushnee didn't vanish tracelessly, can we be sure it didn't continue in the cellars all this time? There were humans following gods presumed dead on Faerun with its crowd of deities, why should we assume the elves (usually more inclined to stick to their ways, violently if that's what it takes) all as one abandoned their ancestral goddess?
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With Lolth and Araushnee the Weaver being two entirely different entities connected in undefined way, it's not "the official lore", it's your cherry-picked subset of the official lore.
Again, FR canon that Araushnee became Lolth.
Yup.
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Kiaransalee [...] could've shanked Lolth, made off with her portfolio and then masqueraded as her, but somehow she didn't.
Why would she do so?
Even if she had anything at all against Araushnee - which is not certain - others could simply fail to connect the latter with this specific Abyssal Lord, exactly because she was not only banished, but transformed and assumed new name.
So why Kiaransalee would gamble and try to "shank" a random new Abyssal Lord, rather than keep an eye on the neighbours and known enemies while expanding her existing power base?
And when everyone found out who is this Lolth and what she's up to - it was too late.
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Also, do we know when exactly Kiaransalee ascended? Possibly later, so it's only Vhaeraun. And what would he do without mommy dear, stand against the Seldarine on his own?
[...] Kiaransalee ascended
Okay, but why would Vhaeraun (or anyone) want to rely on her as an ally? And as a decoy she wasn't going to become more useful any time soon. With Lolth still around, Vhaeraun was at most second-rate threat to Seldarine even if they notice he's up to some shenanigans. Why would he move against her before he was confident both in his power base, and in the Seldarine weakening? And back then we can assume also suffered loss of power for his part in the attempted coup.
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How so?
The male drow.
While female drow are happy dancing? Conversely, there are male drow mostly left alone despite being high profile and shocking level of transgressions, in whom she presumably found something to her liking (IIRC there were musings about Drizzt and Jarlaxle getting it "easy" specifically due to their relationship with chaos).
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Truly, a goddess being corrupted by a demon prince who then eats her is 'whitewashing'.
"No way, Elves couldn't slaughter the innocents, someone must have duped/mind-controlled/possessed them, or those weren't innocents, or those are badwrong Elves and don't count" and "A shiny Elven goddess couldn't fall so low - she must have been eaten by something else" can be easily sung on the same melody, IMHO.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
It says that the constant strife in their society likely is the only factor that prevents them from taking over all the other races in the Underdark. And we know that such strife basically is the main tenet in Lolth's dogma.
While this indeed seems to be obvious, changing this state to a less disastrous one - let alone conquest that would succeed and "stick" - is not necessarily possible. For one, there's Great Rift on this way. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2016 : 20:10:50
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
"No way, Elves couldn't slaughter the innocents, someone must have duped/mind-controlled/possessed them, or those weren't innocents, or those are badwrong Elves and don't count" and "A shiny Elven goddess couldn't fall so low - she must have been eaten by something else" can be easily sung on the same melody, IMHO.
Well, it could have happened *after* the whole betrayal thing. Araushnee could still be a dark elven goddess turned into a demon, working for her revenge against the elves, and to make the drow actually prosper and gain their ''rightful'' place in Toril. In that case, some sort of insane demon that ''ate'' her wouldn't be whitewashing.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
It says that the constant strife in their society likely is the only factor that prevents them from taking over all the other races in the Underdark. And we know that such strife basically is the main tenet in Lolth's dogma.
While this indeed seems to be obvious, changing this state to a less disastrous one - let alone conquest that would succeed and "stick" - is not necessarily possible. For one, there's Great Rift on this way.
Removing the endless strife from their society is pretty much granted to at least improve their situation, and give them a chance to actually develop. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 04 Mar 2016 20:11:56 |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2016 : 04:19:05
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At what point? Was this after Lolth had become a deity?
Without re-reading the book, I'm under the impression that Lolth was not yet a deity at this point. I know that she hadn't yet discovered Toril. It happened when an elf, with the dagger Ka Narlist had given to Shalario chased a demon to the Abyss. Lolth noticed the dagger and followed the magic to Ka Narlist, and decided that he would make a fine consort. I am under the impression that the subsequent worship of her, by the Ilythiri is what made her a God again.
Kiransalee found the elf first and directed her toward her goal, because she didn't like Lolth. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2016 : 09:00:05
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I have linked Crown wars as direct reflection to the diefic power grab. Araushnee was a wife of Corellion they had a daughter Ellistrae. She was corrupted by Wendonai and had a son Vhaerun with Fenmarel who she persuaded to help her with Corellion. They failed their coup only due to intervention of remaining goddess of Seldarine (fusing into Angharradh) who saved Corellion. They then removed Araushnee from Arvandor making her domainless and she ended due to her nature in Abyss. There she defeated that Z. demon lord and took his domain. She then tricked her grandson Selvetarm into devouring remains of that demon lord to corrupt him and made former moonelven goddes Kieranselee undead after she defeated her to bound her son Vhaerun who loved Kieranselee. Elistrea followed by herself to stay true to her dogma as goddess of dark elves who got drow-ed in the meantime in Realms. She also made alliance with Ghaunadaur and got her maidens from him (he is the leech).
Strangely nobody banshed Fenmarel who is presumed to be only a victim of Loths corruption and left as Seldarine.
That is my version and it differs a little from cannon. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2016 : 11:41:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What says that Kiaransalee even knew about Lolth? The planes are a really big place - it's not like every single deity is going to automatically know the power level and portfolios of every single powerful entity out there.
They were at odds in Elaine's Evermeet, IIRC.
Yeah, some of the earliest parts of that book mention Kiaransalee... maybe even before they start mentioning Araushnee. Either way, its around the time that the elves are forming societies in Toril. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2392 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2016 : 13:50:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Well, it could have happened *after* the whole betrayal thing. Araushnee could still be a dark elven goddess turned into a demon, working for her revenge against the elves, and to make the drow actually prosper and gain their ''rightful'' place in Toril. In that case, some sort of insane demon that ''ate'' her wouldn't be whitewashing.
Which is why "looks like". I mean, to think of it in context, it's probably the case, but something contrived on the level of "the plays of William Shakespeare were not written by William Shakespeare but by another man with the same name" isn't the most obvious possibility to me. 
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While this indeed seems to be obvious, changing this state to a less disastrous one - let alone conquest that would succeed and "stick" - is not necessarily possible. For one, there's Great Rift on this way.
Removing the endless strife from their society is pretty much granted to at least improve their situation, and give them a chance to actually develop.
It's the "removing the endless strife" part that contains an implicit fallacy. Lolthites explicitly promote more strife, but it does not follow that if they'd stop doing so, strife would all go away and the drow would somehow become more competitive than surface elves, humans and dwarves.
If no one stirs the cauldron, sure, it will certainly become calmer for a while. But then it may blow up - like in Bhaerynden. Or foul up and result in a far worse perpetual stinking mess - like in Llurth Dreier.
What would they do with lesser level of strife? We know what - and so do themselves. If you look at the drow laws in context of the lessons they must have learned, such as formation of the Great Rift, it all becomes makes perfect sense. Drow Community Survival Rule #1 is simple: "never allow the place to be split between two major parties, pulling others after themselves into an escalating conflict". Whenever the drow fail to keep the balance of power from approaching this state, they risk extinction. Example: Menzoberranzan narrowly avoided destruction in Nasadra vs. S'sril war, Yvonnel Baenre got her position (and longevity) for stopping it.
Sshamath managed to escape the "stirred pot" state without much risk, but this required a set of "lucky coincidences" that in retrospect looks like cooperation between Lolth and Mystra starting more than 100 years before the final turn, giving both main shares in a prosperous city instead of losing it to smoking ruin or Llurth Dreier grade hellhole.
Which returns us to the subject of lost gods - Sshamath has cult of Malyk, god of wild magic and rebellion (actually aspect of Talos) - who quickly wound up as outlaws. There are also small sects of other "newly discovered" drow powers... who likewise are masks of the Seldarine. 
Is anything more known about this? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 05 Mar 2016 14:06:14 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2016 : 14:26:48
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
It's the "removing the endless strife" part that contains an implicit fallacy. Lolthites explicitly promote more strife, but it does not follow that if they'd stop doing so, strife would all go away and the drow would somehow become more competitive than surface elves, humans and dwarves.
If no one stirs the cauldron, sure, it will certainly become calmer for a while. But then it may blow up - like in Bhaerynden. Or foul up and result in a far worse perpetual stinking mess - like in Llurth Dreier.
What would they do with lesser level of strife? We know what - and so do themselves. If you look at the drow laws in context of the lessons they must have learned, such as formation of the Great Rift, it all becomes makes perfect sense. Drow Community Survival Rule #1 is simple: "never allow the place to be split between two major parties, pulling others after themselves into an escalating conflict". Whenever the drow fail to keep the balance of power from approaching this state, they risk extinction. Example: Menzoberranzan narrowly avoided destruction in Nasadra vs. S'sril war, Yvonnel Baenre got her position (and longevity) for stopping it.
Sshamath managed to escape the "stirred pot" state without much risk, but this required a set of "lucky coincidences" that in retrospect looks like cooperation between Lolth and Mystra starting more than 100 years before the final turn, giving both main shares in a prosperous city instead of losing it to smoking ruin or Llurth Dreier grade hellhole.
You make interesting and valid points. I'd say that the rule#1 applies to any society (if you have two factions leading others in what basically is a civil war, it won't go well for the settlement), and even more so to the drow, because of their higher tendency to engage in that kind of conflicts, which is also a product of Lolth's dogma. However, I think that the point was a different one, and described an hypothetical situation more than a real development. If the drow had a different kind of culture and mindset, rather than that forced by Lolth, and were capable of consistently work together--both to overcome the challenges posed by their environment and to face their enemies--, limit waste of resources (including ''human'' resources) and so on, they would be much more successful, and would have probably reduced their enemies (at least in the areas near their settlements) to a non-threat.
I agree that, in order to actually bring such a change, starting from the lolthite drow's current state, a strong influence would be needed to steer them away from the ''stirring pot'' situation.
quote:
Which returns us to the subject of lost gods - Sshamath has cult of Malyk, god of wild magic and rebellion (actually aspect of Talos), and small sect of "newly discovered" drow powers who likewise are masks of the Seldarine.
Is anything known about this?
I wasn't aware of this, but it makes for a really interesting situation, especially considering what their relationship with the actual drow deities could be. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 05 Mar 2016 14:27:28 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1487 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2016 : 12:36:21
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Another way to reconcile the two deities?
Araunshee went nuts and was booted out of Arborea, and fell into the Abyss. Lolth, by then already a demon lord on the verge of ascending to godhood, saw a way to get her grubby little fingers into Faerun and devoured the fallen goddess. Kiaransalee was later heard swearing so much that her minions' ears imploded, then went off to murder Orcus in part to settle her grudge and in part to subsume Orcus's worship to counter her new boss.
It didn't quite work out when he came back, and now she lives in perpetual terror of him pulling out her rotting innards through her nose. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2016 : 16:37:57
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I see the Lord of Bones is still carrying the standard for Orcus ...
Anyway, for whatever reason, the designers of late 3E and 4E decided that Orcus had to be there. Even their fellows over at Paizo had a soft spot for him and so he inhabits their Abyss as well.
As for Kiaransalee, the most relevant and detailed info on her can still be found in Demihuman Deities, out of which most online info will come.
I bowed out of D&D at the eve before 4E and all that happened to the Realms after that, so that is for other sages to detail. I did note that she is listed again as a deity in 5E. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2016 : 16:42:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
I bowed out of D&D at the eve before 4E and all that happened to the Realms after that, so that is for other sages to detail. I did note that she is listed again as a deity in 5E.
She is back. The whole Dark Seldarine has returned, more or less as before, except that Eilistraee&Vhaeraun are no longer enemies (despite their striking differences). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1487 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2016 : 04:19:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
I see the Lord of Bones is still carrying the standard for Orcus ...
Anyway, for whatever reason, the designers of late 3E and 4E decided that Orcus had to be there. Even their fellows over at Paizo had a soft spot for him and so he inhabits their Abyss as well.
As for Kiaransalee, the most relevant and detailed info on her can still be found in Demihuman Deities, out of which most online info will come.
I bowed out of D&D at the eve before 4E and all that happened to the Realms after that, so that is for other sages to detail. I did note that she is listed again as a deity in 5E.
I have no particular like or dislike for Orcus, but his death was detailed in 2e. He also barely has a presence in Paizo; Demogorgon's there too but no mention of him is made outside BotD2.
I prefer Myrkul and Velsharoon, by far. |
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Evrat
Acolyte
France
45 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2016 : 08:39:38
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I rose dead Kiputytto in my Realms in a fight for power between Bane and his son around 700DR (in Westgate of course...). She came in Toril thousands years ago from Earth with the Mulan people as a powerful sorceress/alchemist and became Myrkul's slave and lover as Prince of Murghom, and taught him Necromancy... and the way to steal divinity from gods themselves. Then she fought Talona and disappear in a half-plan of her own creation few seconds before her death in a half stasis condition... waiting for her wakening.
I created her closed to Akasha character, the vampire from Anne Rice novel |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1487 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2016 : 09:49:57
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Kiputytto is a Finnish goddess and an old friend of Loviatar.
Also, she's hideously ugly. |
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Evrat
Acolyte
France
45 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2016 : 10:33:54
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Of course but there are also some few FR lores related her to Bane in the Realms. So I decided to involve her in Bane/Myrkul/Bhaal ascent to divinity.
Former slave/teacher of Myrkul and few millennary later, mother of Xvim. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2016 : 12:33:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Evrat
Of course but there are also some few FR lores related her to Bane in the Realms. So I decided to involve her in Bane/Myrkul/Bhaal ascent to divinity.
Former slave/teacher of Myrkul and few millennary later, mother of Xvim.
Xvim's mother was either a paladin or a demon. The lore disagrees. |
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Evrat
Acolyte
France
45 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2016 : 14:44:05
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| "or" mean it's just a speculation... there is a big gap between a Paladin and a demon... so, who knows exactly. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1487 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2016 : 00:21:58
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There's loree on Kiputyttyo? Everything I've read implies that she predates the Dark Trinity and was slain before Bane rose to power. As for Xvim, his mother being a demon is arguably more fitting. Admittedly I don't see Bane actually fathering him but more like creating him as a contingency plan.
Though the idea of Xvim being a colossal mummy's boy is kind of hilarious. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2016 : 01:03:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Evrat
"or" mean it's just a speculation... there is a big gap between a Paladin and a demon... so, who knows exactly.
No, one source says one thing, another says something else... And it's not wholly irreconcilable, anyway. I have previously theorized that Xvim's mom was a tiefling paladin. She was seduced and impregnated by Bane, and his power and evil inside her was enough to "awaken" the fiendish blood in her, pushing her (maybe with Bane's help) all the way to full-on fiend-dom. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Evrat
Acolyte
France
45 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2016 : 07:15:31
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
There's loree on Kiputyttyo? Everything I've read implies that she predates the Dark Trinity and was slain before Bane rose to power. As for Xvim, his mother being a demon is arguably more fitting. Admittedly I don't see Bane actually fathering him but more like creating him as a contingency plan.
Though the idea of Xvim being a colossal mummy's boy is kind of hilarious.
No, Kiputytto is "officialy" dead in -33DR in the fall city of Asram while fighting Talona. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1487 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2016 : 09:53:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Evrat
"or" mean it's just a speculation... there is a big gap between a Paladin and a demon... so, who knows exactly.
No, one source says one thing, another says something else... And it's not wholly irreconcilable, anyway. I have previously theorized that Xvim's mom was a tiefling paladin. She was seduced and impregnated by Bane, and his power and evil inside her was enough to "awaken" the fiendish blood in her, pushing her (maybe with Bane's help) all the way to full-on fiend-dom.
And now I really want to see life in the Black Lord's household, with Bane trying to introduce Xvim to greater acts of Evil, while Xvim's mum puts her foot down and declares that Xvim's too young for anything more than torturing some silly CG rebel; what if her baby boy actually gets hurt by a +5 holy longsword? |
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Lost gods of the Realms not mentioned.
