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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1398 Posts

Posted - 03 Jan 2016 :  21:40:54  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I was reading up on Rhymanthiin, the City of Hope and found a bit of interesting information. The novel states that Miyeritar dark elves would have been turned into drow if they had given up their Sharn forms. With the Lady Penitent novels, I think that might have given them the option of returning to elven form as the old school Dark Elves.

If we look at Dragon Magazine #373 in the Ecology of the Sharn article, there is the intro story that features Lyrna Fathomlin, "last" scion of House Fathomlin and her being subsumed by the Sharn. I'm assuming she's probably a Dark Elf.

In the 4E Menzoberranzan, City of Intrigue book on page 31 we see that during the War of the Spider Queen era, House Fathomlin achieved the rank of 19th House but was wiped out.

I guess what I find interesting about this is we have a good Dark Elf family of House Fathomlin and an evil drow version that existed at more or less the same time. Assuming Lyrna Fathomlin returned to elf form after the events of Lady Penitent.

I can't help but wonder what other Rhymanthiin families might well have kin in some Underdark city. What would Lyrna do or think if she discovered distant kin in Menzo. Maybe she wiped the house out? Important Miyeritari elves from the Dark Disaster era are more likely to be absolute rockstars in power level compared to present day elves. Anyways, curious as to what others think!

Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3042 Posts

Posted - 03 Jan 2016 :  22:40:22  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think that she would wipe a drow house, for various reasons. First, as powerful as she might be, it's not an easy task to go to Menzoberranzan and wipe a drow house, especially without any report of the happening being caused by some non-drow force. Second, what would the point of bothering to undertake such a task be? If she's actually good, mass extermination of her own bloodline is not a fitting action. Why not work to change her Miyeritari descendants instead? If we go by Ed's lore, Eilistraee (in her reduced form) might have even contacted her about the matter. Also, we can't even say that she's aware of the existence of the drow house, or that they aren't merely namesakes.

She and her family are probably chilling in the City of Hope as dark elves, if they were transformed (the transformation didn't appear to be a choice at all, Q'arlynd's spell just transformed anyone who qualified, AFAIK and as far as the almost non-existent info that WotC bothered to put).

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 03 Jan 2016 22:46:27
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1398 Posts

Posted - 03 Jan 2016 :  23:01:05  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd be willing to bet if the transformation changed anyone with Miyeritari blood, the drow house was changed to Dark Elves. In which case, Eilistraee contacting her and leading her into the Underdark to rescue kin would go right in line with that.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3042 Posts

Posted - 03 Jan 2016 :  23:07:17  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus

I'd be willing to bet if the transformation changed anyone with Miyeritari blood, the drow house was changed to Dark Elves. In which case, Eilistraee contacting her and leading her into the Underdark to rescue kin would go right in line with that.



True, it could be a potential plot hook, if wotC decided to explore it. Knowing that there was lore about Rhymanthiin, Eilistraee (post LP, as archfey) and the dark elves that was cut from the book, my bet is that the disappearance of house Fathomlin was just the result of the transformation and of Eilistraee making sure that they were rescued.

I don't think that this matter will ever be considered again, though. The events in LP have all been reverted, which is fine in my book, but the dark elves have basically been retconned away...

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 03 Jan 2016 23:24:12
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Galadhion
Seeker

USA
24 Posts

Posted - 04 Jan 2016 :  14:33:49  Show Profile  Visit Galadhion's Homepage Send Galadhion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think this sounds like a fantastic basis for a campaign or a story. I wouldn't wait for WotC to develop it. Make up your own head canon for your game.

Brian J and I had a lot of discussions about what the post-LP impact would be on the drow and the dark elves. Since Fathomlin were Miyeritari dark elves, they would have changed after the LP series. In our discussions, we thought it was reasonable that some of the reverted dark elves would attempt to remain part of drow society and reject the change. The society created by Lolth was all they knew. They would purposefully try to be more evil and more slavishly devoted to Lolth than unreported drow. They might even purposefully take Wedonai's taint to restore their place in drow culture. However, the drow would be very suspicious of them, as they are no longer in Lolth's image. They no longer have the taint and Corellon and the other goodly races would be calling to them so traitors to Lolth would be popping up everywhere. We figured a bloodbath would be the most likely result. Redeemed dark elven houses would be culled to the last member with all scions going on to the altar of Lolth.

That is what happened to the Fathomlins in Menzo. At least that's what happened in our discussions. Most were killed; some escaped. I didn't know about Lyrna. She could have returned and helped rescue her distant kin. The drow would still mark the family has destroyed.

Eric Menge
Game Designer / Writer
www.mythmakers.com
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3042 Posts

Posted - 04 Jan 2016 :  15:38:26  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Galadhion
I think this sounds like a fantastic basis for a campaign or a story. I wouldn't wait for WotC to develop it. Make up your own head canon for your game.


Yeah, I wasn't suggesting to wait for WotC to develop the lore (also, it will probably never happen: WotC has undone everything that happened during LP, especially the dark elves, who have basically been retconned). I was just saying that it would be cool to see it included in the canon Realms. In my game, I have taken the Silence of Lolth and what came after in a totally different direction (its purpose isn't just to increase her power (paradoxically, by losing followers), and no deity gets removed), so it would be really hard to include this in my campaign. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't be glad to see this plot hook and lore in the published setting, though.

quote:

Brian J and I had a lot of discussions about what the post-LP impact would be on the drow and the dark elves. Since Fathomlin were Miyeritari dark elves, they would have changed after the LP series. In our discussions, we thought it was reasonable that some of the reverted dark elves would attempt to remain part of drow society and reject the change. The society created by Lolth was all they knew. They would purposefully try to be more evil and more slavishly devoted to Lolth than unreported drow. They might even purposefully take Wedonai's taint to restore their place in drow culture. However, the drow would be very suspicious of them, as they are no longer in Lolth's image. They no longer have the taint and Corellon and the other goodly races would be calling to them so traitors to Lolth would be popping up everywhere. We figured a bloodbath would be the most likely result. Redeemed dark elven houses would be culled to the last member with all scions going on to the altar of Lolth.

That is what happened to the Fathomlins in Menzo. At least that's what happened in our discussions. Most were killed; some escaped. I didn't know about Lyrna. She could have returned and helped rescue her distant kin. The drow would still mark the family has destroyed.



That's an interesting take as well. However, I have some doubts on the transformation. Q'arlynd's ritual targeted both followers of Eilistraee, and those drow without Wendonai's taint. However, in order to not have the latter, a drow should be of pure Miyeritari blood (i.e. belong to a family/clan/house that didn't in any way mix with drow of Ilythiiri descent). So, Idk if a house of Menzoberranyr drow would be transformed (and the number of transformed non Eilistraeen, pure Mieyritari drow would be neglectable).

Also, I don't understand why WotC chose to exclude the existence of untainted Ilythiiri. Some matrons, mages, nobles consorted with Wendonai, but the vast majority of the population (peasants, workers, farmers, commoners and so on) obviously didn't. It seems very far fetched to me that, after their exile in the Underdark, the tainted nobles somehow managed to ''infect'' the whole population...

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 04 Jan 2016 15:54:07
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1398 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2016 :  21:10:48  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Galadhion

I think this sounds like a fantastic basis for a campaign or a story. I wouldn't wait for WotC to develop it. Make up your own head canon for your game.

Brian J and I had a lot of discussions about what the post-LP impact would be on the drow and the dark elves. Since Fathomlin were Miyeritari dark elves, they would have changed after the LP series. In our discussions, we thought it was reasonable that some of the reverted dark elves would attempt to remain part of drow society and reject the change. The society created by Lolth was all they knew. They would purposefully try to be more evil and more slavishly devoted to Lolth than unreported drow. They might even purposefully take Wedonai's taint to restore their place in drow culture. However, the drow would be very suspicious of them, as they are no longer in Lolth's image. They no longer have the taint and Corellon and the other goodly races would be calling to them so traitors to Lolth would be popping up everywhere. We figured a bloodbath would be the most likely result. Redeemed dark elven houses would be culled to the last member with all scions going on to the altar of Lolth.

That is what happened to the Fathomlins in Menzo. At least that's what happened in our discussions. Most were killed; some escaped. I didn't know about Lyrna. She could have returned and helped rescue her distant kin. The drow would still mark the family has destroyed.



Very cool. Thank you for this extra info! First Priestess Jhelnae Horlbar was revealed as a secret follower of Eilistraee. I bet she beat it out of Menzo with whatever Fathomlin survivors she could find. I'm assuming she wasn't Miyeritari and changed to a Dark Elf as a First Priestess wouldn't be able to keep that deception going.

A Lolth/Eilistraee traitor priestess is kind of a fun idea, but the Spider Queen's faith is too evil for that to probably work for a First Priestess without actually turning evil or going insane. Hmmm, insane drow priestess who thinks she's working for Eilistraee but actually backed by Lolth and murdering people she helps "guide". I'll have to write that up as a random encounter. hehehe
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3042 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2016 :  21:24:36  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, Eilistraee has her ''Secret Moondancers'', but they usually work from the shadows, rather than being outright traitor priestesses (like the Vhaerunite ones). Besides, without the drow darkvision and powers, they would likely die in the Underdark (and, by all logic, this was the fate of most ''pure Miyeritari'' transformed drow, and one of the reasons why Q'arlynd's spell was actually rather inconsiderate, and it was also truly pretentious to shove such a change down the throats of all Miyeritari drow).

However, some batsh*t crazy priestess that thinks that she's ''helping'' people in the name of Eilistraee, while in truth murdering and torturing them, sounds like an unusual and fun encounter.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 05 Jan 2016 21:25:00
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1398 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2016 :  21:41:06  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by Galadhion
I think this sounds like a fantastic basis for a campaign or a story. I wouldn't wait for WotC to develop it. Make up your own head canon for your game.


Yeah, I wasn't suggesting to wait for WotC to develop the lore (also, it will probably never happen: WotC has undone everything that happened during LP, especially the dark elves, who have basically been retconned). I was just saying that it would be cool to see it included in the canon Realms. In my game, I have taken the Silence of Lolth and what came after in a totally different direction (its purpose isn't just to increase her power (paradoxically, by losing followers), and no deity gets removed), so it would be really hard to include this in my campaign. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't be glad to see this plot hook and lore in the published setting, though.

quote:

Brian J and I had a lot of discussions about what the post-LP impact would be on the drow and the dark elves. Since Fathomlin were Miyeritari dark elves, they would have changed after the LP series. In our discussions, we thought it was reasonable that some of the reverted dark elves would attempt to remain part of drow society and reject the change. The society created by Lolth was all they knew. They would purposefully try to be more evil and more slavishly devoted to Lolth than unreported drow. They might even purposefully take Wedonai's taint to restore their place in drow culture. However, the drow would be very suspicious of them, as they are no longer in Lolth's image. They no longer have the taint and Corellon and the other goodly races would be calling to them so traitors to Lolth would be popping up everywhere. We figured a bloodbath would be the most likely result. Redeemed dark elven houses would be culled to the last member with all scions going on to the altar of Lolth.

That is what happened to the Fathomlins in Menzo. At least that's what happened in our discussions. Most were killed; some escaped. I didn't know about Lyrna. She could have returned and helped rescue her distant kin. The drow would still mark the family has destroyed.



That's an interesting take as well. However, I have some doubts on the transformation. Q'arlynd's ritual targeted both followers of Eilistraee, and those drow without Wendonai's taint. However, in order to not have the latter, a drow should be of pure Miyeritari blood (i.e. belong to a family/clan/house that didn't in any way mix with drow of Ilythiiri descent). So, Idk if a house of Menzoberranyr drow would be transformed (and the number of transformed non Eilistraeen, pure Mieyritari drow would be neglectable).

Also, I don't understand why WotC chose to exclude the existence of untainted Ilythiiri. Some matrons, mages, nobles consorted with Wendonai, but the vast majority of the population (peasants, workers, farmers, commoners and so on) obviously didn't. It seems very far fetched to me that, after their exile in the Underdark, the tainted nobles somehow managed to ''infect'' the whole population...



I tend to look at the Starym as inspiration in some ways when thinking of drow. Racial purity was a big deal for them and I could certainly see that being a thing for drow. When we consider the 10,000 years of time that has passed, I don't know how you would avoid the Taint without having some sort of dying or fading custom that keeps the family "pure". I could see that, the issue would be the availability of genetic stock to avoid horrid inbreeding. Unless commoners are the key, but then we'd have huge swaths of them turning into Dark Elves if most of them don't have it.

I got nothing. Have to think about it some more. ;)
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1398 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2016 :  21:42:35  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Yeah, Eilistraee has her ''Secret Moondancers'', but they usually work from the shadows, rather than being outright traitor priestesses (like the Vhaerunite ones). Besides, without the drow darkvision and powers, they would likely die in the Underdark (and, by all logic, this was the fate of most ''pure Miyeritari'' transformed drow, and one of the reasons why Q'arlynd's spell was actually rather inconsiderate, and it was also truly pretentious to shove such a change down the throats of all Miyeritari drow).

However, some batsh*t crazy priestess that thinks that she's ''helping'' people in the name of Eilistraee, while in truth murdering and torturing them, sounds like an unusual and fun encounter.



The stripping Elves and I believe Dwarves of Infravision or Darkvision was something I chose to ignore. Was NOT a fan of that either!
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3042 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2016 :  21:55:54  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus

I tend to look at the Starym as inspiration in some ways when thinking of drow. Racial purity was a big deal for them and I could certainly see that being a thing for drow. When we consider the 10,000 years of time that has passed, I don't know how you would avoid the Taint without having some sort of dying or fading custom that keeps the family "pure". I could see that, the issue would be the availability of genetic stock to avoid horrid inbreeding. Unless commoners are the key, but then we'd have huge swaths of them turning into Dark Elves if most of them don't have it.

I got nothing. Have to think about it some more. ;)



The taint doesn't make the dark elves look like drow. That would be Corellon's curse, which targeted *all* dark elves, including Miyeritari followers of Eilistraee, innocent or not. Going by what we know, Wendonai's taint does very little (and it currently is *very* diluted, after 10k+ years), save for preventing the drow from accessing the non Eilistraee-controlled portion of Arvandor...

That's why I said that it's really far fetched to assume that all Ilythiiri were tainted. There is no way to distinguish tainted drow from untainted ones, and it is also why, to me, Wendonai's taint seems to be a very low priority thing (which was only seriously highlighted in the LP books, since they wanted to undo the non-evil Eilistraeen drow). If it had any real importance, Eilistraee would have chosen to work on it from the beginning (and not wait 10k years: the info on it already existed, given that someone put them in a kiira), and would have organized periodic ''untainting'' high magic rituals for her followers (and we would be seeing those with her return after the Sundering as well).

In 10k years the taint would surely be very widespread (albeit, as I said, diluted), but there wouldn't be any real difference between Ilythiiri and Miyeritari, since both of them (what little remained of the Miyeritari and that didn't choose to keep following Eilistraee, at least) were exiled and started to live together. The Ilythiiri were also exiled before Lolth's faith was dominant, and when Wendonai was corrupting nobles, matrons and rulers. This means that the Miyeritari were exposed about as much as the Ilythiiri to the taint.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 05 Jan 2016 22:03:27
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1398 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2016 :  23:22:02  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Very true. I was thinking the use of spells to detect, but then it wouldn't make sense in a Lolthite society to trace lineage back to Miyeritar as they would want to ignore or forget that part of their heritage. Looking at the end of the LP series, only those of untainted blood and worshippers of Eilistraee. It also states hundreds on the surface and hundreds more underground. I bet if we divide that up (say 500) between the 40 known drow cities that's like 12 of them reverting in Menzoberranzan. Less when we factor in the cities we don't know about. I would suppose the highest concentration would be in the High Moor / Northdark area given the location of Miyeritar.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3042 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2016 :  23:39:05  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus

Very true. I was thinking the use of spells to detect, but then it wouldn't make sense in a Lolthite society to trace lineage back to Miyeritar as they would want to ignore or forget that part of their heritage. Looking at the end of the LP series, only those of untainted blood and worshippers of Eilistraee. It also states hundreds on the surface and hundreds more underground. I bet if we divide that up (say 500) between the 40 known drow cities that's like 12 of them reverting in Menzoberranzan. Less when we factor in the cities we don't know about. I would suppose the highest concentration would be in the High Moor / Northdark area given the location of Miyeritar.



The survivors of the Dark Disater probably chose to travel away from Miyeritar, in the surrounding areas. We don't know how many of them survived, but their number is small (the Dark Disaster was a true genocide, after all), and those who chose to follow the other drow underground most likely mixed with the Ilythiiri. If we go with WotC's assumption that all Ilythiiri are tainted, then it's likely that the Miyeritari who didn't stay on the surface were simply absorbed into their society, mixed with them, and that therefore their descendants got the taint as well. Considering this, the number of ''pure blooded'' drow is basically neglectable, and even within former Miyeritari families, like Fathomlin, you'd get quite a bit of tainted drow.

So yes, I think that a handful of transformed drow per city is the most probable amount.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5522 Posts

Posted - 06 Jan 2016 :  01:16:50  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In the vignette I wrote for the Descent in GHotR (-10000 DR) I tried to give an example of how "good" dark elves might go bad and warrant being transformed into drow. I still reckon it's one of the best things I ever wrote.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3042 Posts

Posted - 06 Jan 2016 :  01:42:31  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

In the vignette I wrote for the Descent in GHotR (-10000 DR) I tried to give an example of how "good" dark elves might go bad and warrant being transformed into drow. I still reckon it's one of the best things I ever wrote.

-- George Krashos



I have read (and enjoyed) that, but it hardly warrants a punishment IMO (actually, the curse would be a short sighted, ineffective, and cruel choice anyway, but that's another matter).

Taking part to a war that saw all elven kingdoms involved, trying to support the people that seem to be your only ally, against those who destroyed your home and massacred most of your people, including children, just because they wanted to conquer you, hardly seems something that makes the curse a deserved punishment. Especially if other elven people who have committed the same (or worse) stuff as the Ilythiiri get special treatment.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 06 Jan 2016 01:43:50
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe

487 Posts

Posted - 06 Jan 2016 :  05:34:50  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

In the vignette I wrote for the Descent in GHotR (-10000 DR) I tried to give an example of how "good" dark elves might go bad and warrant being transformed into drow. I still reckon it's one of the best things I ever wrote.

-- George Krashos



I have read (and enjoyed) that, but it hardly warrants a punishment IMO (actually, the curse would be a short sighted, ineffective, and cruel choice anyway, but that's another matter).

Taking part to a war that saw all elven kingdoms involved, trying to support the people that seem to be your only ally, against those who destroyed your home and massacred most of your people, including children, just because they wanted to conquer you, hardly seems something that makes the curse a deserved punishment. Especially if other elven people who have committed the same (or worse) stuff as the Ilythiiri get special treatment.




Not to mention that elves are the dumbest race when it comes to dealing with their enemies. We know from the Dark Disaster and the extermination of Jhaamdath that elves would commit genocide when they felt it was warranted. Yet they choose to let 2 societies where the mortals were actually tainted with demonic blood live and continue being a threat to others (the drow and the daemonfey). It somehow seemed smarter to exile them, just as Corellon exiled Lolth to the Abyss, so that they can come back even stronger and cause more suffering in the future.
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe

487 Posts

Posted - 06 Jan 2016 :  05:49:08  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus

Very true. I was thinking the use of spells to detect, but then it wouldn't make sense in a Lolthite society to trace lineage back to Miyeritar as they would want to ignore or forget that part of their heritage. Looking at the end of the LP series, only those of untainted blood and worshippers of Eilistraee. It also states hundreds on the surface and hundreds more underground. I bet if we divide that up (say 500) between the 40 known drow cities that's like 12 of them reverting in Menzoberranzan. Less when we factor in the cities we don't know about. I would suppose the highest concentration would be in the High Moor / Northdark area given the location of Miyeritar.



The survivors of the Dark Disater probably chose to travel away from Miyeritar, in the surrounding areas. We don't know how many of them survived, but their number is small (the Dark Disaster was a true genocide, after all), and those who chose to follow the other drow underground most likely mixed with the Ilythiiri. If we go with WotC's assumption that all Ilythiiri are tainted, then it's likely that the Miyeritari who didn't stay on the surface were simply absorbed into their society, mixed with them, and that therefore their descendants got the taint as well. Considering this, the number of ''pure blooded'' drow is basically neglectable, and even within former Miyeritari families, like Fathomlin, you'd get quite a bit of tainted drow.

So yes, I think that a handful of transformed drow per city is the most probable amount.



Regardless of the exact percentage, it's ridiculous that elves with a demonic taint that's been diluted over 10,000 years would be considered irredeemably evil. Look at the examples we have to contradict it.

1) Farideh and Havilar in Brimstone Angels (good tieflings)
2) Magadon in Twilight War (good son of archdevil Mephistopheles)
3) Drizzt (good Illythiri drow)

WOTC should decide whether a fiendish bloodline makes people unavoidably evil, or if it just gives them a tendency to be evil.
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1837 Posts

Posted - 06 Jan 2016 :  13:14:28  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Taking part to a war that saw all elven kingdoms involved, trying to support the people that seem to be your only ally, against those who destroyed your home and massacred most of your people, including children, just because they wanted to conquer you, hardly seems something that makes the curse a deserved punishment. Especially if other elven people who have committed the same (or worse) stuff as the Ilythiiri get special treatment.

The initiative was quite obviously all about Seldarine. Why the Descent affected all dark elves, though - most likely answers are "elven mentality" or "sabotage".
It was discussed to death, undeath and back several times.

quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten

Not to mention that elves are the dumbest race when it comes to dealing with their enemies.

Of course. They created two enemies who scare them out of the pants despite appearing in inferior numbers. Drow, and then Scro.

quote:
Yet they choose to let 2 societies where the mortals were actually tainted with demonic blood live and continue being a threat to others (the drow and the daemonfey). It somehow seemed smarter to exile them, just as Corellon exiled Lolth to the Abyss, so that they can come back even stronger and cause more suffering in the future.

That's very simple: desire to rub it in, slowly. The elves are posturing all the time, why this side would be different?
Humans may be treated like wild beasts, but they see other elves as equals (and even worse, know they are superior in something) - so that's where they stop being dismissive and flip out all the way.
Which is why such enemies are not just killed, but subjected to some equivalent of being buried alive.

quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten

WOTC should decide whether a fiendish bloodline makes people unavoidably evil, or if it just gives them a tendency to be evil.

Well, yeah. Various ways in which LP fails to make sense were vivisected in that thread.

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And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
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Irennan
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Italy
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Posted - 06 Jan 2016 :  13:41:24  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus

Very true. I was thinking the use of spells to detect, but then it wouldn't make sense in a Lolthite society to trace lineage back to Miyeritar as they would want to ignore or forget that part of their heritage. Looking at the end of the LP series, only those of untainted blood and worshippers of Eilistraee. It also states hundreds on the surface and hundreds more underground. I bet if we divide that up (say 500) between the 40 known drow cities that's like 12 of them reverting in Menzoberranzan. Less when we factor in the cities we don't know about. I would suppose the highest concentration would be in the High Moor / Northdark area given the location of Miyeritar.



The survivors of the Dark Disater probably chose to travel away from Miyeritar, in the surrounding areas. We don't know how many of them survived, but their number is small (the Dark Disaster was a true genocide, after all), and those who chose to follow the other drow underground most likely mixed with the Ilythiiri. If we go with WotC's assumption that all Ilythiiri are tainted, then it's likely that the Miyeritari who didn't stay on the surface were simply absorbed into their society, mixed with them, and that therefore their descendants got the taint as well. Considering this, the number of ''pure blooded'' drow is basically neglectable, and even within former Miyeritari families, like Fathomlin, you'd get quite a bit of tainted drow.

So yes, I think that a handful of transformed drow per city is the most probable amount.



Regardless of the exact percentage, it's ridiculous that elves with a demonic taint that's been diluted over 10,000 years would be considered irredeemably evil. Look at the examples we have to contradict it.

1) Farideh and Havilar in Brimstone Angels (good tieflings)
2) Magadon in Twilight War (good son of archdevil Mephistopheles)
3) Drizzt (good Illythiri drow)

WOTC should decide whether a fiendish bloodline makes people unavoidably evil, or if it just gives them a tendency to be evil.



They seem to have decided. At this point, the tainted drow being unavoidably evil is just the belief of one of those clueless angels at the end of LP. It is definitely said from their unreliable perspective.

The Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide explicitly says that drow are not all evil, that Eilistraee ''sings her call'' to the drow again, and that some of them hear and choose to ''answer'' to her. Besides, as you said, we have tons of other examples (and of previous lore regarding drow as well) that supports the fact that ''tainted blood'' doesn't force you to be evil.

There's even more: the 5e PHB clearly states that having fiendish blood has absolutely 0 influence on the tiefling's choice in life. It just gives them a different appearance.

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Edited by - Irennan on 06 Jan 2016 14:42:28
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
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Posted - 06 Jan 2016 :  13:56:13  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
Yet they choose to let 2 societies where the mortals were actually tainted with demonic blood live and continue being a threat to others (the drow and the daemonfey). It somehow seemed smarter to exile them, just as Corellon exiled Lolth to the Abyss, so that they can come back even stronger and cause more suffering in the future.



The difference is that, when the drow were cursed, 1)Lolth's faith wasn't even dominant, and it absolutely wasn't what it currently is 2)the taint was mostly spread among their mages/priests and rulers. It's logical that your random Ilythiiri commoner likely had nothing to do with it, and that the worship of Lolth was practiced along with that of other deities, and mostly out of fear, or to not incur in the deity's wrath (similar to how evil deities are worshiped by humans and other races). Those who reached to her for power, those who could use that power, couldn't be more than a minority.

The curse was short-sighted and cruel because, instead of just steering the already defeated Ilythiiri away from Lolth (as victors, the elves could have easily done this), it condemned every dark elf, made them feel abandoned and rejected by the Seldarine and the other elves, and basically pushed them towards Lolth and the rest of the evil Dark Seldarine. They were the only deities who would accept them and offer them ''guidance'', while Eilistraee had most of her people exterminated, and her influence was too weakened to have a significant impact.

This has already been discussed on these forums, but in short, yeah... it can't be said that the curse was aimed to bring ''justice'', perhaps TBeholder is right in saying that it was mostly an act of pride.

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5522 Posts

Posted - 06 Jan 2016 :  17:23:16  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
The difference is that, when the drow were cursed, 1)Lolth's faith wasn't even dominant, and it absolutely wasn't what it currently is 2)the taint was mostly spread among their mages/priests and rulers. It's logical that your random Ilythiiri commoner likely had nothing to do with it, and that the worship of Lolth was practiced along with that of other deities, and mostly out of fear, or to not incur in the deity's wrath (similar to how evil deities are worshiped by humans and other races). Those who reached to her for power, those who could use that power, couldn't be more than a minority.



I don't necessarily agree with this. Everything we know about the Ilythiiri points to the fact that they abandoned worship of the Seldarine for deities such as Ghaunaudar and Lolth and succumbed to influences from the Lower Planes. If anything it was a minority who continued to worship the Seldarine, and not many at that. I always took the actions of the other elves against the Ilythiiri as mandated by the Seldarine because the dark elves no longer worshipped them and had ceased to act/behave like "normal" elves. As such the Seldarine decided to change these "abnormal elves" to reflect what they had become. Heavy handed? Yep. Cruel? Yep. But as Ed has always said: elves are monsters too. The tone of many posts on this topic is always tinged with a sentiment of "but elves shouldn't have done that" or "the 'good' dark elves didn't deserve it" - all I can say to that is "war is hell" and there'a always collateral damage.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
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Posted - 06 Jan 2016 :  17:43:37  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I don't necessarily agree with this. Everything we know about the Ilythiiri points to the fact that they abandoned worship of the Seldarine for deities such as Ghaunaudar and Lolth and succumbed to influences from the Lower Planes. If anything it was a minority who continued to worship the Seldarine, and not many at that. I always took the actions of the other elves against the Ilythiiri as mandated by the Seldarine because the dark elves no longer worshipped them and had ceased to act/behave like "normal" elves.


I wasn't saying that the Seldarine was worshiped by the majority, I meant something else. We know that Wendonai was sent to seduce Ilythiiri nobles and such. Through their leaders, the worship of Lolth spread among the Ilythiiri (and it didn't originally have the form and the pervasivity that it has now, having to compete with Vhaeraun and other faiths). However, lets consider the common Ilythiiri dark elf (basically, the bulk of the population). They would have little reason and no ability to consort or make deals with Wendonai and other demons, they would worship Lolth like humans worship, say, Bane or Talos (and we know that even common folk can worship evil gods, among the others). This means that most of the population could have easily been saved by the Seldarine, especially if they had chosen to aid Eilistraee in that.

quote:
As such the Seldarine decided to change these "abnormal elves" to reflect what they had become. Heavy handed? Yep. Cruel? Yep. But as Ed has always said: elves are monsters too. The tone of many posts on this topic is always tinged with a sentiment of "but elves shouldn't have done that" or "the 'good' dark elves didn't deserve it" - all I can say to that is "war is hell" and there'a always collateral damage.



Not only it was cruel and heavy handed, it was short sighted and rather stupid, for the reasons that I've already explained.

However, I too think that it is cool, because it makes the situation nuanced rather than black and white. Also, Aryvandaar had a pretty similar situation (heck, they even randomly started it all) save for the fact that Lolth wasn't worshipped there. So, why were the dark elves cursed to the last child (and, btw, why was the curse made so that it would be passed to the children), but in Aryvandaar only the Vyshaan (i.e. the rulers, and those who were actually corrupted) were punished? The most likely answer to that is that the Seldarine let their pride blind them and chose to curse those who had abandoned their worship, definitely pushing an entire race towards Lolth (this is the point I was trying to make: the Seldarine/elves surely don't represent ''justice'' or ''good'' in this scenario).

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Edited by - Irennan on 06 Jan 2016 18:22:05
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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 06 Jan 2016 :  20:20:41  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am wondering if the descent of the drow was not some kind of mixed up power play between the seldarine and lolth that has become confused with the legend of the casting down of lolth.

Excuse me while I ramble for a second.

1 - the elves originally revered faerie lords during their time on the plane of Faerie, some of those faerie lords were the Seldarine but they were not gods.

2 - At some point according to legend Lolth was cast down into the Abyss by Corellon.

Since the elves did not worship the Seldarine before the elves arrived on Toril the Seldarine were not gods. Also since Lolth was stated as trying to subvert the Illythiri to her worship then she also was not a god (no worshippers) and it means her descent was prior to the elves arriving on Toril).

We don't know at what exact point the Seldarine became gods nor do we know at what point the elves began worshipping them as gods. It may be that the two events were synonymous.

The creation of Evermeet using High Magic was a plot by Malkizid (according to Brian R James' work) presumably to ensure his favoured pets; the Vyshaan, remained forever dominant over the elves and possibly also to allow him a means to return to Arvandor since Evermeet is linked to that plane (I don't know what plane he fell from as a fallen angel but perhaps it was Arvandor).

The Seldarine are first mentioned in GHoTR around -10110 dr. The Vyshaan had just conquered half the elven world splitting it between the Vyshaan Empire and Illythiir with Keltormir in the middle and so the elves of Illefarn consult the seldarine seemingly out of the blue.

There are pointers in several sources that the Elven Court was a site of great significance to the Seldarine even possibly housing the beings themselves. The forest of Arcorar isn't mentioned in the history of faerun at all until -10110 dr, almost as if it were ignored by the elves for whatever reason (sacred ground, or because it was a powerful, fey, and dangerous place even for the elves).

Suddenly in -9200 the Elven Court with aid from hidden High Mages and pockets of resistance start the fifth crown war and by -9000 they have destroyed what was possibly the largest empire ever to exist on Faerun, stretching from the forest of Illefarn in the north to the forest of Ilythir in the shaar, and presumably including Evermeet.

That's some organised resistance, especially since the Vyshaan Empire had its own High Mages, presumably enormous armies, and had conquered several nations already.



So heres the theory. What if -10000 dr was the point at which the Seldarine ascended through whatever high magic ritual was performed. What if the destruction of the Vyshaan Empire relied upon the cooperation of the faerie forces of the faerie lords known as the Seldarine that organised all fey creatures of the forests of the world (fey crossroads would come in really handy at this point) to cause uprisings, ambush forces, bind garrisons in their fortresses, and basically disrupt the infrastructure of the Vyshaan all over their empire all at once. That might just give the non Vyshaan elves the edge they need to break apart an empire that had existed for thousands of years using forces of the elven court that had been occupied only for 800 years.

The price of this aid was the cleansing of Lolth's taint. However Corellon didn't perform the magic, he merely asked the elves to do it and their interpretation or the result of their magic was the transformation of all dark elves into drow (or however you want to play it, all tainted dark elves, all illythiiri dark elves, or just all dark elves alive on Toril at that time).

So the result of the ritual was not necessarily Corellon's doing, as a fey creature he probably didn't care, but as a result of this ritual he and his kin were elevated to godhood, perhaps to give him an edge over Lolth whose hand had been revealed in trying to dominate the elves.


Now comes Lolth's part. She knew that the elves would never accept her as their leader, and certainly not as the divine being she desired to be. Even her own children knew the legends of Araushnee's descent. So she sent her servants and allies, Wendonai and Gargauth and other great fiendish corruptors to twist the differences of the elves into hatred, not so that they would eventually turn to her but so that the elves would reject each other.

Between Malkizid and Lolth (perhaps acting independently), the two fallen creatures divided the elves into three factions, the Vyshaan, the Ilythiiri, and other elves. Such division could only lead to destruction. The only question was who revealed the existence of the Seldarine to the elves. It says the Seldarine summoned the elves to the Elven Court but what if someone else showed them the way.

Lolth tainted the dark elves and mayhap led the other elves to the Seldarine knowing that he would want the taint purged from his children. The division and hatred among the elves ensured the result of that purge was the cursing of the dark elves into drow thereby ensuring the drow's hatred of the Seldarine and opening their eyes to the possibility of Lolth as their saviour. As elves they could never accept Araushnee, but as twisted monsters perhaps it no longer mattered.



Again sorry for the rambling but I'm wondering if multiple factions were at work her and the cursing of the drow was an incident born of hatred as a result of millennia of manipulation by those factions. I'm theorising that the Moonblades were a plot by Malkizid through Ethlando to ensure he maintained control over Evermeet and so perhaps the Elven Court was not free of such plotters and manipulators; a whisper of hate here, an expression of disgust there, perhaps a remembrance of old feuds, and old wounds open causing even the elder High Mages to make a poor decision and forever curse their misguided kin.

Better that the errors be in the hands of the elves themselves and not another example of the deific soap opera.


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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1837 Posts

Posted - 07 Jan 2016 :  00:32:43  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

They seem to have decided. At this point, the tainted drow being unavoidably evil is just the belief of one of those clueless angels at the end of LP. It is definitely said from their unreliable perspective.

You know how the saying goes - not all Primes are Clueless, and not all Clueless are Primes.
quote:
Besides, as you said, we have tons of other examples (and of previous lore regarding drow as well) that supports the fact that ''tainted blood'' doesn't force you to be evil.

What matters here would be opinion of the Seldarine, but given that Sehanine herself adopted Moonsilver (not just "#8709;Tiefling...CG", but explicitly 2 generations away from Abyss)...

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
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willwrk4internet
Acolyte

1 Posts

Posted - 10 Jun 2019 :  18:41:49  Show Profile Send willwrk4internet a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I noticed that multiple posts in this thread say that the events of the LP trilogy have been "retconed" or "reverted" back. Can someone please explain what is meant by this? Is this a reference to the nonexistence of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun in 4e? Is this a reference to the relatively small amount of background info on Miyeritari or dark elves? Or is it both?
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
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Posted - 10 Jun 2019 :  19:50:34  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by willwrk4internet

I noticed that multiple posts in this thread say that the events of the LP trilogy have been "retconed" or "reverted" back. Can someone please explain what is meant by this? Is this a reference to the nonexistence of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun in 4e? Is this a reference to the relatively small amount of background info on Miyeritari or dark elves? Or is it both?



It means that the Sundering/5e happened and they both returned; Eilistraee is still drow and her followers still drow (after all, only hundreds of them were changed, and--as a lesser goddess--Eilistraee has at least a few thousands of followers, so only a narrow minority was transformed. On top of that, Eilistraee has never cared about changing the skin color of her people--she chose to be one of them--they had already access to her realm in Arvandor, so the whole end of LP was just pointless). Ed also gave an explanation about how they both survived the events of LP and they were only apparently gone (having been unable to function as deities for a century, and having recovered after Mystra's return in 1487), which essentially makes the main events in LP moot.

The transformed drow were *actually* retconned. There wasn't any in-universe event to reverse the transformation; there's absolutely no info about them, as WotC simply ignored them from the get go, and decided to completely axe them in 5e. They wouldn't have made any real difference, due to their small number (and to the fact that, as I said, only a minority of Eilistraee's followers were transformed), but some info would have been in order (even though I can totally see why they decided to axe this aspect, or the whole LP story tbh).

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Edited by - Irennan on 10 Jun 2019 19:57:35
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