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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Jun 2019 : 15:35:38
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Over the last decade I've become more and more interested in the OLD mythologies. By that I mean the original stories. What I've found annoying is that I cannot seem to find god stories like the greek and norse that detail who/what were the gods of the Celtic, Finnish, and Kievan Rus. I'm interested in old Russian mythology. I'm even interested in the stories of the Polynesian gods too, such as Maui, etc... Yet, the knowledge must be around, because the original writers of the 1st edition Deities and Demigods were able to find the names and they didn't have google/yahoo, book stores like amazon, etc.... Authors like Neil Gaiman have run across these stories as well, because of his use of gods like Chernobog in his books, etc... Most of the celtic mythology books I find are basically faeries stories or Arthurian type legends and not stories of the gods.
So, I ask... what GOOD sources that are entertaining and not high brow discussions, and in English, are there that might detail these gods? I've picked up some old time/life book series, but they're less story and more discussion. I know there's the Kalevala for the finnish, but what I've read of it (very little) didn't seem to go into things deific much. What were the original writers of deities and demigods reading (maybe its out of print)? What was Ed reading? Even to go so far, what were J.R.R. Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, and their peers reading?
To add here, I can find plenty on Greek and Norse lore, so I'm less interested in those. But other gods, I'd never even heard of until relatively recently. For instance, the gods Perun, Veles, Svarog, and Chernobog of the Rus are all relatively new to me, and I find little on them. But apparently they may be more well known in Europe?
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2019 : 17:57:11
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Search for things like "European mythology", "Slavic folklore", etc. This is the sort of topic which has a lot more references offline (in libraries) than online (wikipedia). Even if you don't like a particular book you might still find the bibliographical reference section useful.
Don't be surprised if your public library keeps such books "in the back room" or has to request them from another location - these books seem to often be defaced, vandalized, or stuffed full of biblical fortune cookie notes. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2019 : 20:07:21
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A quick copy-paste from my DRAGON magazine notes:
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page 11 - the Japanese Mythos
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page 4 - Near Eastern Mythos (Sumeria, Babylonia, Canaan)
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page 14 - Mythos of Australia
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page 8 - Mythos of Polynesia
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page 35 - Mythos of Oceania
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page 11 - The Magic of Dragon’s Teeth* (based on Greek Myth)
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page 22 - Out of Africa (monsters from African myth and legend)
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page 26 - lore of the Greek gods (and stats for demi-gods)
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page 62 - six monsters from Central American myth
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page 32 - Mesopotamian Mythos
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page 92 - CLASS ACTS - Aztec mythos p96
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page 86 - CLASS ACTS - Aztec mythos p90
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page 84 - CLASS ACTS - arcane feats, Aztec mythos, psionic items
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Edited by - Storyteller Hero on 16 Jun 2019 20:11:36 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2019 : 18:07:18
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The issue is that many myths, weren't sadly written down, and much of them got lost, what survived, did so in oral tradition.
Some like Celtic mythology, had actually several variations, among the groups of Celts (ie continental Celts/Gals, Gaels, Brythons etc.)
As mentioned by Ayrik, Wikipedia is here a pretty good source, for this at least.
As you mentioned, there is Kalevala, and I think it is a good source for Finnish mythology and Folklore, although id did change some details from the oldest myths, most notably separating Louhi and Loviatar (and D&D Finnish Gods, are largely inspired by how they are presented in Kalevala). It was also a major inspiration for J.R.R. Tolkien, as well influenced other writers like Michael Moorcock (creator of Elric of Melniboné).
"Lebor Gabála Érenn" - "The Book of the Taking of Ireland" or "The Book of Invasions" is a crucial text for Gaelic/Irish mythology, and tells the story of Tuatha Dé Danann - Irish Gods. But these were also seen as previous weave of migration to Ireland, before Milesians (ancestors of Irish), as well as being the same as Aes Sídhe - elves/fairies - hence many Celtic folklore and myths are Faerie stories - due to gods becoming faeries.
Slavorum org,is a fairly good source for Slavic mythology, if a bit difficult to navigate. Example pages of Perun and Morene (with links on further articles about bellow):
https://www.slavorum.org/perun-slavic-god-of-thunder/
https://www.slavorum.org/morena-and-legends-of-this-ancient-slavic-goddess-of-winter/
About Caananite and general Levantine/West Semitc mythology (which had visible differences from Mesopotamian mythology, despite an overlap), the deviantart artist MulciberVolcanus done a lot of artwork of Levantine gods, with details, including of some extremely obscure deities:
https://www.deviantart.com/mulcibervolcanus/gallery/?catpath=/
If the descriptions are often quite short and simple, she does a great job an unearthing some pretty obscure deities. |
Edited by - Baltas on 17 Jun 2019 19:15:55 |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2019 : 22:51:46
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Celtic mythology isn't my field of study, but interesting.
About Irish / Celtic mythology, Ive been recommended "Over Nine Waves" by Marie Heaney, as an good book for people not knowing the mythology well, and a book which is good without being too academic.
Might be the myth cycles never touched upon all gods equally, and therefore all gods worshipped might not always appear in many myths. That is common as far I understand european mythologies.
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2019 : 19:09:45
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Also, with Chernobog, he is a rather enigmatic, and complicated deity.
It's not sure if he's deity, or even just a title/another name of another god (Chernabog/Chernobog literally means (the) "Black God"). The 12th century Chronica Slavorum, from which the name Chernobog comes, suggests he already was syncretized by Slavs with the Christian notions of Satan - seing the Chronicle states that Chernobog's alternate name, is "Diabol" (a Slavic form of the world Devil, from Diabolos), although this might be a clever demonization from the Chronica Slavorum writer Helmold.
More noted about Chernobog, is noted in the the 10th-century Icelandic legend Knýtlinga saga, were he is mentioned as Tiarnoglofi (Chernoglav, Czarnoglow), "the Black Head", probably just a corruption of Chernobog. Knýtlinga saga described Tiarnoglofi as a god of war/victory.
Further, largely reconstructive sources, mention Chernobog as the brother and opposite of Bielobog, although some think Belobog din't exist, which has some basis, as he is near completely based on hypothesis. On the other hand, the many toponyms seemingly based on his name - Belbozice in Czech Republic, Bilobozhnytsia in Ukraine, and Bialoboze recorded in Poland. Sometimes the toponyms are paired with those having the name Chernobog as in the case of hills Bileboh and Czorneboh near Bautzen in Sorbia, and of the Czech Belbozice which is likewise paired with Cerníkovice (named after Chernobog), suggest Bielobog did exist.
In general, the relationship between Bielobog and Chernobog, is compared by some to the relationship between Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu, some thinking it was influenced by Zoroastrian dualism brought by Persian tribes like Scythians and Sarmatians.
Other sources give Chernobog a further role and family. "Die Wissenschaft des Slawischen Mythus im weitesten, den altpreussisch-lithauischen Mythus mitumfassenden Sinne. Nach Quellen bearbeitet, sammt der Literatur der slawisch-preussisch-lithauischen Archäologie und Mythologie" by Ignác Jan Hanuš, suggested Chernobog to had been along with Bielobog at the top of the Slavic cosmic hierarchy and family tree of gods, right bellow only Svatewit/Svetovid/Trilglav/Triglaf, and with Chernobog being the father of the God Flins, and goddesses Hela and Nemisa.
(Hela/Hel got incorporated apparently into some Slavic belief systems due to interactions with Germanic and Norse tribes):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Northwestern_Slavic_divine_hierarchy,_Hanu%C5%A1_1842.jpg
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=umn.31951002357992g&view=1up&seq=206
This hierarchy mentions also certain gods as "Razi" - "rede-givers", and "Zirnitra" - "wizards", or "dragon-wizards", with both Bielobog and Chernobog, being both Razi and Zirnitra at the same time, according to another work, according to "Geschichte des Heidentums im nördlichen Europa. Symbolik und Mythologie der alten Völker" by Georg Friedrich Creuzer
and Franz Mone.
The "Encyclopedia of Demons in World Religions and Cultures" by Theresa Bane, stated (based on "Russian Wondertales" by Haney, "Talks with the Devil" by Ousperski, and "Russian Devil and Diabolic Conditionality by Putney", that Slavic Fairy/Daemon Chort is the son of Chernobog and Mara Morena):
https://books.google.pl/books?redir_esc=y&hl=pl&id=njDRfG6YVb8C&q=chort#v=snippet&q=chort&f=false
As I mentioned before though, Chernobog, might be just a title of another Slavic God, the same is with Bielobog.
With Perun/Perkun, Svetovid, Svarog or Dazhbog being Bielobog; and Veles, or Triglav being Chernobog.
Some researches even claim that Tiarnoglofi might be more a of a corruption of the name Triglav. Triglav was also though by some to be the more Northwestern form of Veles by some, to further add the connection. Triglav and Svetovid also seem as each other mirror reflections - Svetovid being white, ridding a white horse and having 4 heads, while Triglav is black, rides a black horse and has 3 heads (according o descriptions, each wearing a blindfold).
Others think Bielobog and Chernobog, were just dark and light aspects of one god, possibly the supreme god. Neil Gaiman took this approach in American Gods.
As mentioned before Triglav and Svetovid - sometimes identified with Chernobog and Bielobog by researchers - as I mentioned are thought to be two forms and names of the same, due to their similarities, like by Hanus.
Veselin Cajkanovic;, also compared the solar deity mentioned in Russian historic sources, Dazhbog, with a far darker and chthonic character of Serbian folklore having an almost identical name, Dabog. Cajkanovic pointed out that solar gods in various mythologies tend to have double aspects, one benevolent and light, representing the Sun in the sky during the day, and other malevolent and chthonic, representing the Sun in the underworld during the night. He concluded that two seemingly opposite gods, good and evil, light and dark, Bielobog and Chernobog, could actually be simply two different aspects of a single Slavic deity, Dazhbog. Dabog is even known among Serbians as "Charni Daba" (Black Daba), and "the father of devils", giving further similarities to Chernobog.
Dabog though, in his connection with wolves, underworld, and being blind in one eye, and being a wanderer with a walking stick, Dabog resembles also Veles in other Slavic mythos (And yes, this also makes both Dabog and Veles similar to Odin), and other think Dabog among Serbians and South Slavs, is just Dazbog syncretized with Veles.
Veles, like Chernobog and the Serbian Dabog, was also identified with the Devil, and the name of his Baltic cognate - Velnias - even means "devil" in modern Lithuanian.
https://translate.google.pl/?hl=pl&tab=wT#view=home&op=translate&sl=lt&tl=en&text=velnias
Although this also could be further evidence for the theory. |
Edited by - Baltas on 18 Jun 2019 19:37:51 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2019 : 23:19:01
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| In Bakar there was Finnish,Celtic, Norse, Greek, ect...Temples so there is a history for these Pantheons in FR beyond Lovitar. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2019 : 01:27:33
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Thank you all, and hopefully more notes wll show up. As far as good books to maybe look for, so far I'm noting
"The Book of the Taking of Ireland" or "The Book of Invasions" is a crucial text for Gaelic/Irish mythology
About Irish / Celtic mythology, Ive been recommended "Over Nine Waves" by Marie Heaney,
Perhaps this for some of the Russian/Slavic lore
The "Encyclopedia of Demons in World Religions and Cultures" by Theresa Bane, stated (based on "Russian Wondertales" by Haney, "Talks with the Devil" by Ousperski, and "Russian Devil and Diabolic Conditionality by Putney", that Slavic Fairy/Daemon Chort is the son of Chernobog and Mara Morena):
https://books.google.pl/books?redir_esc=y&hl=pl&id=njDRfG6YVb8C&q=chort#v=snippet&q=chort&f=false
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2019 : 03:03:24
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The "Encyclopedia of Demons in World Religions and Cultures" by Theresa Bane, stated (based on "Russian Wondertales" by Haney, "Talks with the Devil" by Ousperski, and "Russian Devil and Diabolic Conditionality by Putney", that Slavic Fairy/Daemon Chort is the son of Chernobog and Mara Morena):
https://books.google.pl/books?redir_esc=y&hl=pl&id=njDRfG6YVb8C&q=chort#v=snippet&q=chort&f=false
I apologize for confusing you here - I meant that "Russian Wondertales", "Talks with the Devil", and "Russian Devil and Diabolic Conditionality" are sources given for the Chort description in the Encyclopedia of Demons in World Religions and Cultures. The book about demons and spirits around the world. |
Edited by - Baltas on 19 Jun 2019 04:07:01 |
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earth deific lore - Celtic, Finnish, kievan rus
