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 Was Kiaransalee's name erased from the tablets
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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 24 Aug 2012 :  23:56:32  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
One of the things that just came to mind is how Kiaransalee was "erased" from the realms (like had been done to Orcus). Now, we're finding out the tablets of fate were what were used to separate Abeir and Toril. Said tablets held the god's names and defined why they were there. So, it makes me wonder... was the spell essentially modifying the tablets of fate? Kiaransalee only a few years prior had done the same trick to Orcus.... is the only reason that this trick was even possible because of Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul's meddling with the tablets? When Kiaransalee's name was erased, did it just remove her access to the divine realm and she's been trapped somewhere. Not sure what exactly could be done with this yet, but it smacks of some kind of good story tool.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

sfdragon
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2219 Posts

Posted - 25 Aug 2012 :  00:35:56  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
AO took the tablets and demandd that the gods pay attention to their worshippers or know a living hell or so and smashed the tablets.



so... NO she was not erased from it being that it didnt exist.

all the spell did was erasew her name from ortal memory. doesnt say anything for the undead memory now does it.....

she was banished from the realms....



why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


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Eilserus
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Posted - 25 Aug 2012 :  00:37:20  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I doubt even High Magic could affect something AO created, unless he willed it.
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Kentinal
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Posted - 25 Aug 2012 :  01:13:35  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Last printed is canon. *shrugs* With only a few exceptions.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 25 Aug 2012 :  02:27:43  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon

AO took the tablets and demandd that the gods pay attention to their worshippers or know a living hell or so and smashed the tablets.

so... NO she was not erased from it being that it didnt exist.

all the spell did was erasew her name from ortal memory. doesnt say anything for the undead memory now does it.....

she was banished from the realms....



Maybe it was only because the tablets were smashed that the new "trick" of erasing god's names from it worked (and Kiaransalee's followers were the first to figure it out... but maybe said follower used their own life to power the spell or something). Maybe Ao smashing it broke his own defenses that prevented mortals from messing with it. Maybe that was his personal little &%@$ you to the gods that he gave mortals the ability to mess with them. Given that he also made them tied to mortal worship... maybe.... still not sure where to take it... but it just sounds like a good story idea.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 27 Aug 2012 :  05:15:42  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
...and what about descriptive titles, and did it affected drow planewalkers over the whole Multiverse, and why she didn't have enough of power reserve inside her domain to not starve until she reestablishes the contact...
Come on. The real answer is simple: this issue can't be meaningfully "theologized" based on existing lore, because it's not connected to existing lore in the first place.
Because it's just one more case of "Lisa Smedman crashes in and tells everyone how, in her opinion, everything and especially divinity should work, without bothering to look or ask whether it was already covered in relevant entry-level sources".
Much the same to a lesser degree was for "Necessary Sacrifices" and with that smell-permeable wall of force in "Extinction".
Which is kind of sad, because she could be one of the best writers if not this... superelven level of obliviousness.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
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sfdragon
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Posted - 27 Aug 2012 :  07:52:20  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
as I said, it is impossible to erase the name off a tablet that does not exist.


the next question is, that to ask if AO knew this was to happen beforehand. IT was Lord AO that allowed the Mulohaund pantheon to enter faerun, it was Lord AO that allowed Tyr to enter the realms as well. IT was Lord AO that created Abeir.

It was Lord AO that created and destroyed the first tablets, it was Lord AO who recreates them.

It will be Lord AO who will allow Kiransilee back into the realms, it will be Lord AO who grants Vhaerun and Eilistraee back their divinity. It will be Lord AO who resurrects Tyr and maybe the others as well.

one would also have to wonder, if the tablets of fate were really smashed in the first place.....

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


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Markustay
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Posted - 27 Aug 2012 :  18:23:18  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My thoughts are that when Ao had the tablets, they could not be modified (not without killing him and taking the tablets, which means the rule still applies - you can NOT change them while he has them).

When he 'destroyed' them, he merely destroyed the rules (its a metaphysical concept that mortals would only perceive as an actually tome). I have some theories about this, The Weave, and crystal Spheres, but thats food for another thread (the sphere is the physical manifestation of world's rules - its physics, magic, cosmic edicts, etc).

When did Kiaransalle do that to Orcus in the timeline? It would make the most sense if it happened after the theft of the tablets. Then everything else fits - so long as Ao didn't have the tablets (destroyed or not), anyone with enough power and knowledge can force their own rule upon the world (crystal sphere). Changing even minor stuff would take enormous power, and making major changes would mean making some major divine-level sacrifices, but it should be possible.

All Ao did was 'throw out the rulebook' for awhile. While the rules remain in-place, these sorts of things shouldn't be able to happen; the Imaskari Godwall being an obvious exception, but we still don't know all the details of what that entailed. Either the Imaskari had some Over-god level help, or they figured out how to change the rules outside the rulebook (picture the crystal sphere being the rulebook itself, with everything written on its interior. Now picture someone figuring out how to 'scribble on the cover' - write new rules on the outside).

I don't think the Imaskari were as powerful as assumed - I think they were just clever enough to figure out how to do something Ao couldn't even see.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Aug 2012 18:52:02
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Erik Scott de Bie
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Posted - 27 Aug 2012 :  18:49:19  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Orcus's name was erased before 2e hit (i.e. he was "erased" in the 2e Planescape set), so yes, she *could* have erased his name from the Tablets of Fate, if we're assuming he was enscribed there at all. How (if) she managed to do so is unknown, but you better believe mortal magic could not have accomplished it. It's a titanic exertion of power to match magic with a god, much less an overgod.

When Kiaransalee was "erased" in the Lady Penitent series, the Tablets of Fate did not presently exist, which means the threshold to "erase" her was lower. No one had to contend with the will of AO to destroy a god, so mortal high magic could theoretically accomplish it.

The way I see it, the Tablets of Fate were sort of the divine "safeguard," because they decreed which gods existed and which did not. Regardless of whether a rival god or even an ambitious mortal vanquished you, if you were a god whose name was inscribed on the Tablets of Fate, you still existed in some form. After the tablets' destruction (i.e. during the Era of Upheaval), gods could die without that safety net. Basically, AO declared a free-for-all among the gods starting in 1358.

The reforging of the Tablets represents the end of that era--now that the gods are no longer able to destroy each other permanently, there's much less reason for them to engage in active/direct war against each other.

So no, Kiaransalee was not erased from the Tablets of Fate, as the tablets didn't exist at the time of her "erasure." Nor is she necessarily actually dead--it's quite possible (even likely) that she will be inscribed anew on the reforged Tablets and so spring back into existence (or perhaps be promoted from whatever form she managed to retain during her presumed "death"). In my personal (not-quite-canon) campaign, she isn't dead at all, but lurking and waiting for her revenge on Lolth.

Also, let's not bash Lisa (or any author), ok? It's just not cool. Thanks.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

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Markustay
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Posted - 27 Aug 2012 :  19:04:56  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm.

So the only thing that doesn't work perfectly within this theoretical framework is Kiaransalee doing it when it shouldn't have been possible (for mortals, or deities of her 'lowly' stature).

Thus, we should assume that Kiaransalle had more power at the time she performed that little feat, and that's what drained her of her power (and left her as we know her).

Kiaransalee managed to destroy her crystal sphere, didn't she? (She actually sucked all the life out of it, raising herself to godhood in the process, but it amounts to the same thing). What if she temporarily had near-Overgod might? What if what she did amounted to replacing Threnody's Overgod (absorbing every last bit of life-energy), and then realizing she had become a 'god of nothing', immediately sought other spheres where she could establish herself?

If she had that sort of power, then Ao would not let her immigrate, so perhaps she was forced to try and take another being's 'stolen mantle' of godhead from them, and choose Orcus (I think being a deity of similar temperament makes the whole process easier - it 'greases the cosmic wheels', so to speak). She basically forced her way into the Realms (and maybe did so elsewhere as well, in other Crystal Spheres). So her stint as Over-power was short-lived because she had no desire to rule a dead sphere. That could explain how she circumnavigated Ao's rules (and how a deity that powerful became Lolth's lackey) - she spent the energy erasing Orcus' name.

And if Orcus himself forced his name into the book in some inexplicable manner, then so much the better. The 'magic' surrounding that entry would have been weak compared to the rest of the text in the Tablets (speaking metaphysically, of course).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Aug 2012 19:06:39
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 27 Aug 2012 :  19:09:03  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's a good theory, Erik, but it overlooks gods like Ibrandul who were killed during the ToT -- before the destruction of the tablets -- or who had died sometime previous to that, like Murdane or Valigan Thirdborn.

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Markustay
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Posted - 27 Aug 2012 :  19:24:43  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kiaransalle's near-Overgod might (at first) had managed to weaken the tablets to begin with?

Its a stretch, but I think its an idea that can be built upon (that something was weakening the power of the tablets - we could even blame it on Shar, or a consortium of 'dark gods'). Once the tablets had a 'crack' in them, it spread and spider-webbed.

EDIT: The Dawn Cataclysm?

EDIT2: Actually, we'd have to trace the first 'chip' in the tablets back to the Orcgate Wars - the first deicide.

EDIT3 Thinking on #2 above, it could have had something to do with the Imaskari Godwall - what if it had a corrupting (weakening) influence?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Aug 2012 19:29:11
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
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Posted - 27 Aug 2012 :  20:04:58  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

It's a good theory, Erik, but it overlooks gods like Ibrandul who were killed during the ToT -- before the destruction of the tablets -- or who had died sometime previous to that, like Murdane or Valigan Thirdborn.

As my theory goes, deities killed during the Time of Troubles were mortal, and thus the Tablets of Fates didn't protect them. AO decided thereafter that this was going to keep going on.

As for other deities who perished, it's possible that they were erased from the Tablets of Fate somehow through mitigating circumstances, or maybe those gods aren't actually dead.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 27 Aug 2012 :  20:09:14  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Kiaransalle's near-Overgod might (at first) had managed to weaken the tablets to begin with?

Its a stretch, but I think its an idea that can be built upon (that something was weakening the power of the tablets - we could even blame it on Shar, or a consortium of 'dark gods'). Once the tablets had a 'crack' in them, it spread and spider-webbed.

EDIT: The Dawn Cataclysm?

EDIT2: Actually, we'd have to trace the first 'chip' in the tablets back to the Orcgate Wars - the first deicide.

EDIT3 Thinking on #2 above, it could have had something to do with the Imaskari Godwall - what if it had a corrupting (weakening) influence?



I don't like that idea, because it implies that Ao's will can be over-ridden.

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Markustay
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Posted - 27 Aug 2012 :  21:04:46  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't like it either - just looking for a way to pour some 'sweet sauce' over a steaming pile.

You wouldn't be happy with any solution wherein any being was able to circumvent Ao's will? I can come up with a hundred scenarios - most of them pretty cheesy - where that could happen, but I can't think of any reason why Ao would have let it all happen knowingly.

I'm now leaning toward the copies of the tablets the Dark Three stole being complete fakes. Don't know how or why, but it makes sense if they were somehow taken out of the picture a long time ago (as I said, back during the Orcgate wars). Perhaps the Imaskari managed to get an Elder Evil to do their dirty work?

The last thing in the world I want to utilize is one of 4e's Cthulhuesque elements, but it has been canonicaly stated that the Eldest is more powerful then Ao (and yeah, none of us likes that, but it is what it is). I'm thinking some sort of corruption angle with the tablets, almost like an 'infection' on a cosmic scale. They would have weakened (deteriorated) over time.

Uh-oh... did I say infection? Maybe it was the plague.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 27 Aug 2012 :  22:18:08  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I don't like it either - just looking for a way to pour some 'sweet sauce' over a steaming pile.

You wouldn't be happy with any solution wherein any being was able to circumvent Ao's will? I can come up with a hundred scenarios - most of them pretty cheesy - where that could happen, but I can't think of any reason why Ao would have let it all happen knowingly.

I'm now leaning toward the copies of the tablets the Dark Three stole being complete fakes. Don't know how or why, but it makes sense if they were somehow taken out of the picture a long time ago (as I said, back during the Orcgate wars). Perhaps the Imaskari managed to get an Elder Evil to do their dirty work?

The last thing in the world I want to utilize is one of 4e's Cthulhuesque elements, but it has been canonicaly stated that the Eldest is more powerful then Ao (and yeah, none of us likes that, but it is what it is). I'm thinking some sort of corruption angle with the tablets, almost like an 'infection' on a cosmic scale. They would have weakened (deteriorated) over time.

Uh-oh... did I say infection? Maybe it was the plague.



Ao is the supreme power within Realmspace. No one, save his superior, should be able to override him.

I'm pretty sure that Eldest thing was not presented as an absolute fact.

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Erik Scott de Bie
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Posted - 27 Aug 2012 :  22:40:00  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@MT: I question whether it's canonically stated that the Eldest is more powerful than AO. Give me the citation.

@Wooly: Gods "killed" before the Tablets were destroyed are basically only killed with AO's sign-off. That is, he has to approve that the god was rightfully destroyed. When the Tablets were destroyed, all bets were off. Moving forward, we will once again return to the concept of AO being the final arbiter of divine existence.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

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Markustay
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Posted - 27 Aug 2012 :  22:56:19  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Are you suggesting I would actually read a novel about Aboleths? I think I just threw-up a little in my mouth.

Others here have stated this as 'fact', several times, and I take their word for it simply because I have never read the books that revolve around that storyline. Please... PLEASE... correct me if I'm wrong (I'm begging you).

Believe you me, I hope that it isn't a fact. I was just throwing that out there as proof that there 'may be' things more powerful then Ao (like his 'boss'... who's probably his spouse...)

As for Ao being the 'supreme being', I am more of a fan of the FR-as-part-of-something-bigger meta-setting concept. In other words, in an infinite universe, theoretically there should be an infinite number of beings mightier then Ao (I don't prescribe to the 'infinite universe school' - once again, just using that as an example of 'what might be').

I guess what I was trying to say that a suitably powerful 'Elder Evil' could be used as a McGuffin to flub whatever you want. I kinda like the idea that the tablets were somehow corrupted and literally fell apart over-time. I'm not so keen on Ao signing-off on deicides - its a bit too arbitrary. At least not between deities. If mortals usurp a deity's portfolio, then all bets should be off (or even another deity, slowly siphoning off a deity's power by stealing his worshipers - lazy gods should be punished). A straight-out 'knife in the back' scenario should never be possible. The losing deity should have to consent to such a trial-by-combat (even if by 'consent', we simply means it did nothing to prevent the other deity from stealing its followers).

Ao consenting to a deicide of a god who is actively trying to support its portfolio and maintain its followers just sounds very wrong to me. Its like getting punished just for being weaker.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Alystra Illianniis
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Posted - 27 Aug 2012 :  23:30:19  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
AFAIK, Kiaransalee was never even erased from the Tablets themselves, just from "mortal memory and knowledge", as was mentioned earlier. So, in effect, she may still exist (even if the Tablets did not at that time) OUTSIDE of Toril/Realmspace. Nothing was said of her removal from divine memory, and obviously Lolth and Eilistraee still knew of her. She simply withered from a lack of followers- which is what would have happened to ANY god who lost all of their worshippers- regardless of the reason for said loss. Even if all her worshippers has simply been killed and all books about her been destroyed, it would have had the same effect. Which makes me wonder- the spell removed her from memory, but what about recorded knowledge? IE- would it have erased her from all written record as well? If so, was her entire existance erased from them, or simply her name? If it was only her name, then a canny researcher COULD reserect her simply by discovering her name again and re-writing it in as many references as possible to make her known again..... This is my theory for how she could/SHOULD be brought back (if she ever is).

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Erik Scott de Bie
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Posted - 28 Aug 2012 :  01:30:26  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Are you suggesting I would actually read a novel about Aboleths? I think I just threw-up a little in my mouth.

Others here have stated this as 'fact', several times, and I take their word for it simply because I have never read the books that revolve around that storyline. Please... PLEASE... correct me if I'm wrong (I'm begging you).
Well, then be relieved--I *will* correct you. As far as I understand it, that reference is from an abolethic perspective (hardly a reliable narrator) and it's a relative measurement. The Eldest may indeed be more powerful than AO on its own turf, but AO is the ultimate power in Realmspace. Period.

quote:
Believe you me, I hope that it isn't a fact. I was just throwing that out there as proof that there 'may be' things more powerful then Ao (like his 'boss'... who's probably his spouse...)
Indeed, we do know that AO has someone/something he reports to. There's always a bigger fish.

quote:
I'm not so keen on Ao signing-off on deicides - its a bit too arbitrary. At least not between deities. If mortals usurp a deity's portfolio, then all bets should be off (or even another deity, slowly siphoning off a deity's power by stealing his worshipers - lazy gods should be punished). A straight-out 'knife in the back' scenario should never be possible. The losing deity should have to consent to such a trial-by-combat (even if by 'consent', we simply means it did nothing to prevent the other deity from stealing its followers).
Well, that gets into a discussion of how gods perish, how mortals ascend to being gods, and how gods take divinity from each other. We know it was possible before the Time of Troubles, though relatively rare, and those cases we know of someone taking a god's place are generally limited to someone coming along who's more suited to the god's duties or a mortal killing a god.

The Time of Troubles made it much easier. AO would no longer stand by to protect gods who were killed despite "playing by the rules." Hence why he let Mystra "die," knowing the havoc it would wreak on the Realms.

Ultimately, AO has a greater purpose, which in this case appears to involve teaching the gods a lesson. It began with the aftermath of the Time of Troubles, and continued all the way through the Era of Upheaval. Only now, as AO reforges the Tablets of Fate, is the lesson ending.

quote:
Ao consenting to a deicide of a god who is actively trying to support its portfolio and maintain its followers just sounds very wrong to me. Its like getting punished just for being weaker.

Well, I don't think AO has ever done that. He's never signed off on the death of a god that is playing by the rules (fulfilling its purpose in his divine reality), unless he decides that purpose is no longer necessary or another being might serve it better. Also, AO never KILLS gods himself--he only allows them to die if it serves his stewardship of Realmspace.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

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The Sage
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Posted - 28 Aug 2012 :  01:56:00  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

It's a good theory, Erik, but it overlooks gods like Ibrandul who were killed during the ToT -- before the destruction of the tablets -- or who had died sometime previous to that, like Murdane or Valigan Thirdborn.

As my theory goes, deities killed during the Time of Troubles were mortal, and thus the Tablets of Fates didn't protect them. AO decided thereafter that this was going to keep going on.
While I do like this theory, it doesn't completely explain Ed's conception that even "dead" gods can't truly die because there will always be a sliver of worshipper power that can sustain them.

Which is something I've long been curious about. Did the mortal gods who died during the Time of Troubles really actually die, or were they just sent into some kind pre-apotheosis state... provided they had the requisite faith derived from worshippers to do so?
quote:
As for other deities who perished, it's possible that they were erased from the Tablets of Fate somehow through mitigating circumstances, or maybe those gods aren't actually dead.
Maybe when a deity is erased from the Tablets of Fate, his/her ability to derive energy from worshippers is also eliminated. Perhaps this is the only way a deity can ever truly die.

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The Sage
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Posted - 28 Aug 2012 :  02:00:16  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

@MT: I question whether it's canonically stated that the Eldest is more powerful than AO. Give me the citation.
I don't recall anything like that either.

However, both the FRCG and Plague of Spells note that the progenitor aboleths on Xxiphu are among the oldest and most powerful entities on Toril, which is maybe what Markus was thinking of in reference to his statement above. As follows:-

Per the FRCG [pg. 172]:- "Aboleths have seen the rise and fall of worlds, apocalypse upon apocalypse. They are old past understanding, and their origins predate the current cosmos in which mortals (and their gods) erroneously believe they are so central."

Per Plague of Spells:- "Xxiphu contains the original aboleths. These are the progenitors of the race who personally squirmed into the world before it cooled from its creation fires. These aboleths were old when the sun was still young. Xxiphu is the seat of the Abolethic Sovereignty, possessed of a malignancy inconceivable, and ruled by the Eldest, an aboleth of such size its age is incalculable. Certainly it is older than when Abeir-Toril split asunder. If Xxiphu rises and the Eldest wakes, then Faerūn will face yet another catastrophe, this one directed by alien, unfeeling minds that do not perceive the world as you do, or even I."

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sfdragon
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Posted - 28 Aug 2012 :  02:31:23  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
that is also going to assume that branch of lore isnt going to end up sealed away under what does not work.


all due respect to the fans of the late mr. Lovecraft, but works inspired by his work does not need to be in everything....

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


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Alystra Illianniis
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Posted - 28 Aug 2012 :  02:48:53  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Agreed. I find much of it simply disturbing in the same vein as the tentalce-p*rn anime is....

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George Krashos
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Posted - 28 Aug 2012 :  07:39:37  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think that the Tablets simply established just who was a god when they were first created, with Ao having the ability to add to the roster as required. After that, only a god could "kill" another god, and even a "dead" god could be brought back by enough worshipper support or a deific transfusion from another deity. There is ample evidence to show that mortal magic could bar/prevent gods from having a presence in the Realms - the Imaskari and the Kiaransalee situations being prime examples. The gods affected by this magic weren't killed off, just the conduit between them and their worshippers was severed such that they couldn't project deific power into the Realms (spells, avatars, manifestations et al). Given this, it can be postulated that if the Realms was your only source of worshippers, and your conduit was severed, then you would eventually lose most but not all of your deific power, and essentially become a "dead" god floating in the Astral, waiting for that conduit to come back on line or some other infusion of godly power to get things working again.

Viewed in that light, is it surprising that the Realms features so many examples of deities masquerading as other deities? This is an aspect of FR god-lore that I absolutely love, because I think it represents ways that the FR deities - knowing that their "conduits" are vulnerable - have put into place strategies and arrangements to create multiple "conduits". Those deities with all their deific eggs in one basket (i.e. Kiaransalee) are hence the vulnerable ones, while the Banes of this world will seed their "son" Iyachtu with a portion of their deific essence as a failsafe if they should be killed by another deity or have their "conduit" affected.

Or maybe not ... Hehe. Who knows how things really work when it comes to the gods.

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Markustay
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Posted - 28 Aug 2012 :  19:02:50  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You know, Planers have a saying - "put 'em in the dead book".

Seems to me that the Tablets of Fate is just the overgod version of some mortal 'dead book', which makes perfect sense since Ao/Overgods aren't the gods of mortals, they are the deities' gods.

Since writing something into any of these books (there is another, similar tome in Kara-Tur, written-up in the Book of Artifacts) is akin to altering reality, then thats how dead gods can come back. Even the slightest vestige receiving any sort of worship - even as small as an archaelogist digging up an ancient idol and suddenly becoming 'aware' of that being's past existence - is enough of a spark to set the wheels in motion. By the same token, this is no different then what deities can do in regards to mortals - each tier has its tier above it that decides whether something 'stays dead' or comes back.

What is death? In D&D I mean. Its certainly not 'an end'. Its merely a way of severing a person's link from their plane of birth nad re-assigning it to another plane - usually that of their primary deity (but sometimes hell or other places). You don't really 'die' at all (by RW standards) - you just get a different anchoring point. If you think in those terms, then its pretty easy to reconcile why gods die and come back 9and just about everything else)

I think very few things can actually provide a 'final death' (like the River Styx). And I think even 'Oblivion' can be un-done by a being a much higher tier (but then one must wonder, is that truly the same being, or is it just a recreation?) For instance, Ao could probably bring back a mortal from Styx or Kezef, but why would he want to? For deities, it may have to go to an even higher authority then Ao.

On the other hand, it may be a great way to spin 'Undead gods', like Orcus. What if Orcus was dipped in Styx, but continued to get worship? That sort of thing - you wind-up creating a 'glitch' in the program that way. He is physically dead, but the concept of Orcus remains very much alive, maintaining him in a sort of in-between state. The real Orcus is gone, and all that remains is mortal belief in him (giving it a psuedo-life of its own).

I love game/cosmology theory.

EDIT: And another thing/pet-peeve - if they plan on keeping Zakhara around (and they should!), then I think FATE should be in-charge of the Tablets of Fate. I mean, its kind of a no-brainer, don't you think? They got her friggin' name on them!

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 28 Aug 2012 19:07:39
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