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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Nov 2014 : 22:50:26
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I'm discussing this very issue over on RAS's message boards, and I don't know the answer.
In early D&D core resourcebooks, drow of level 4 and above could levitate once per day.
When Bob brought the drow into the 1E Realms with "The Icewind Dale Trilogy", Drizzt had no levitation ability.
As TSR began looking toward 2E, Bob released his "The Dark Elf Trilogy", and here, he wrote that drow nobles had the ability to levitate once per day. And house emblems could imbue an unlimited ability to levitate. But Drizzt lost his emblem in Exile, and in Sojourn he lost his ability to levitate altogether.
When 3E Realms first came out in 2001, levitate was no longer listed as an innate drow ability. This made it seem like the ability had been lost.
However, in MAR-2003, Player's Guide to Faerūn confirmed that drow nobles retained the ability to levitate.
This brings me to 4E, in which I can find nary a mention of innate drow levitation (of nobles, or otherwise), once again. This would seem to indicate that drow nobles can no longer levitate as an innate ability, anymore.
But the situation with 3E gives pause regarding that kind of conclusion. Maybe it was just an oversight with 4E, and we are still lacking an official confirmation or verification, all over again?
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"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2014 : 23:24:32
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| It's not Realms specific, but Drow in the 5E Monster Manual can levitate. The PC race Drow cannot, and the base Monster Manual Drow cannot, but the Elite Drow, Drow Mage, and the Drow Priestess entries list levitate as a 1/day ability. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2014 : 23:58:22
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| Yes 3rd Edition nerfed the Drow innate abilities. One needed to be Noble to levitate at will in third with a noble badge IIRC. As far as it goes IMO Drow from 1st to 2nd got nerfed some as well. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2014 : 00:09:28
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4e is... mostly unrelated to anything else. IMHO.
As to SLA, levitation was available at 5 level in AD&D2 and in 3.x via "Highborn Drow" feat.
But it never was clear whether nobles have it simply because they are typically high-level elite compared to lower-level commoners, because it's "in the blood" or because they can afford to spend more time on dedicated training of existing abilities.
Here was a thread about this. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2014 : 00:46:39
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| There is further confusion on this subject when you consider that the novels based on the character Liriel Baenre (Windwalker was one of them) had her use a powerful artifact to supposedly give drow the ability to retain their SLAs on the surface. I don't really care if I get griped at for taking yet another snipe at WotC (and TSR has some blame in this as well I believe) but the company really should get it stuff together and fix these issues once and for all. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2014 : 01:43:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
It's not Realms specific, but Drow in the 5E Monster Manual can levitate. The PC race Drow cannot, and the base Monster Manual Drow cannot, but the Elite Drow, Drow Mage, and the Drow Priestess entries list levitate as a 1/day ability.
That's pretty much the same way it has always been, 1E through 2E, and kinda-sorta 3E. 4th-level+ drow could levitate once per day.
When Bob brought the drow into the Realms, he expounded upon that core rule by saying that it was drow nobles who could do so. I suppose that nobles are the ones who would be more capabale of rising to the advanced levels.
So that makes it sound like drow can do it in 1E, 2E, 3E, and 5E--while 4E is silent on the issue. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2014 : 01:46:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Yes 3rd Edition nerfed the Drow innate abilities. One needed to be Noble to levitate at will in third with a noble badge IIRC. As far as it goes IMO Drow from 1st to 2nd got nerfed some as well.
Player's Guide to Faerūn mentions noble status and heritage, but not the badge. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2014 : 02:06:01
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
4e is... mostly unrelated to anything else. IMHO.
As to SLA, levitation was available at 5 level in AD&D2 and in 3.x via "Highborn Drow" feat.
But it never was clear whether nobles have it simply because they are typically high-level elite compared to lower-level commoners, because it's "in the blood" or because they can afford to spend more time on dedicated training of existing abilities.
The 1E D&D core game modules that featured drow say that 4th-level+ drow can levitate once per day.
When Bob brought drow into the Realms and delved deeply into their way of life in Homeland, he said that it was drow nobles who had that ability. It would make sense that they would tend to be the ones with more advanced levels of this or that. He did not discuss non-noble drow at the higher levels.
This is how I reconcile the materials. Because so much of drow magic has been tied to the faerzress energy, I think that their SLA are likewise linked. Faerzress-laced stones are ground into foodstuff-grade minerals and fed to drow. Higher-status drow receive higher quantities of the stuff. The lower-level SLA require less of it, mostly through prenatal nutrition in utero. But the higher-level SLAs also require continued, ongoing ingestion of such energized minerals. In this way, drow are tied to the Underdark, in order to retain their characteristic SLAs.
In previous editions and olden times, faerzress experienced nasty reactions with the ultra-violet component of sunlight. This (even moreso than their highly photo-sensitive eyes) was the main reason for the drow's traditional, extreme hatred of sunlight. They feared the loss of their signature powers and enchantments.
Drizzt saw his enchanted drow items crumble in the months after he came to the surface World Above. This was because of the adverse reactions between faerzress and solar UV.
And he also experienced the loss of his levitation ability. I believe this was because he stopped consuming the magical foods of the Underdark, so characteristic of drow nobles.
But he retained his lower-level SLAs, because they only required sufficient consumption of the magical energy in the earliest stages of the life cycle, rather than continued ingestion thereof.
quote:
Here was a thread about this.
I saw that, but I don't think that it speaks to the issue of specific editions. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2014 : 02:29:22
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
There is further confusion on this subject when you consider that the novels based on the character Liriel Baenre (Windwalker was one of them) had her use a powerful artifact to supposedly give drow the ability to retain their SLAs on the surface.
While I still haven't read Liriel's story, my understanding is that she kept some faerzress-laced soil within the Windwalker artifact with her on the surface, to prevent her drow magic from being hastily terminated wherever she went on the surface. This, combined with Fyodor's rune magic, somehow extended this effect to all drow, even though they don't have nifty little Windwalkers of their own.
(Q: How long was Liriel on the surface in the novels?)
But exactly what that means, and how far it goes, is still quite unclear to me.
For now, the way I interpret it is that the long-lasting effect is that solar UV no longer causes hinky reactions with faerzress, so the really ugly problems previously experienced no longer occur.
However...it is my understanding that faerzress-enchanted items and faerzress-induced SLAs still require regular "charging". Drow still need to visit faerzress deposits occasionally to renew the magic. It may not catastrophically wig out like before, but it can still fade, without conscious renewal.
Drow continue to ingest magical minerals through their mothers in utero, and after birth in their foods, therefore they retain their SLAs--including drow nobles and levitation.
But Drizzt still lives on the World Above, and largely avoids the Underdark, so his higher SLAs (like levitation) have completely faded away.
How does that work? Does that seem like a sensible enough explanation?
quote:
I don't really care if I get griped at for taking yet another snipe at WotC (and TSR has some blame in this as well I believe) but the company really should get it stuff together and fix these issues once and for all.
Agreed! |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 15 Nov 2014 02:31:55 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2014 : 15:40:39
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I had addressed this in the Elven Netbook Project (which became Elves of Faerūn), by extending the Drow Racial Paragon class in Unearthed Arcana to six levels, IIRC (I no longer have my notes from that project, and I'm not sure if Lord Katsus ever included that part). I had done the same for other Elves as well, trying to bring back a more traditional 'Elven' quality to them.
Paragon Classes, for those unfamiliar with them, is when you take your race as a class; a brilliant idea harkening back to the ol' school, that unfortunately never got developed fully.
So, basically, if you want those NPC Drow abilities, you have to take a few levels of 'Drow Paragon'. That eliminates all the silliness and extra baggage that ECL creates (always hated that). I really hope 5e embraces that system, and doesn't go back to the unwieldy (and unfair) ECL system. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Nov 2014 15:42:00 |
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2014 : 17:53:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
'Elven' Paragon Classes
I like paragon classes, I really do. But not for something like this; and I hope they don't do it for something like this.
The problem with paragon classes is that you're giving up actual class levels. And that really sucks, for say: a wizard, who would much rather have his high level spells than a couple of low level SLAs.
Racial classes are good if you're allowing someone to play something that's like, CR6+.
In the case of drow and other races, I much prefer the approach of racial feats, or racial alternate class features(give me some options on what I'm trading in), or even just giving them the "Overpowered" racial feature for free, but not before they hit a high enough level that it's no longer overpowered.
For instance, an SLA of a 3rd level spell, 1/day is beefy at level 1. At level 5, it's petty good, and at level 7: who cares?. So give them the 3rd level spell SLA somewhere between level 5 and 7, and then, even though they are still technically "more powerful" than humans, it isn't in any way that actually matters. In the case of a free Summon Monster 3, maybe level 7 is better (perhaps give Summon Monster 1 at level 3, and upgrade to SM2 at 5, and then 3 at 7). Invisibility Sphere, 6. If it's a fireball, level 5. If it's just Daylight or Water Breathing, level 4 would be fine.
That way, yes its an additional Option - but it isn't significant in the way of additional Power. |
Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP) |
Edited by - Sylrae on 15 Nov 2014 17:57:07 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2014 : 18:46:35
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
There is further confusion on this subject when you consider that the novels based on the character Liriel Baenre (Windwalker was one of them) had her use a powerful artifact to supposedly give drow the ability to retain their SLAs on the surface.
Was discussed in the abovelinked thread.
quote:
but the company really should get it stuff together and fix these issues once and for all.
You see, that is a big part of the problem. 
If the first attempt to do so happens to be semiliterate fan**** (which is about half of the time), things don't stop rolling downhill.
This applies even to trivial issues of our world, not magic. Search for "falarica" to see a moderate example - which an article in "Dragon" either initiated or propagated. For an older and "canonized" example, see Gygax's weird ideas on ballistics. Then there's unknown developer's spiked chain fetish in 3.x, etc...
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
This is how I reconcile the materials. Because so much of drow magic has been tied to the faerzress energy, I think that their SLA are likewise linked. Faerzress-laced stones are ground into foodstuff-grade minerals and fed to drow.
They have gizzards?
quote:
In previous editions and olden times, faerzress experienced nasty reactions with the ultra-violet component of sunlight. [...] This was because of the adverse reactions between faerzress and solar UV.
Source, please?  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2014 : 19:09:19
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This might just be me, but I always assumed faerzress magic was a different form of magic, much like Table Magic, or Gemstone Magic. And the funny thing is, none of these have really been developed. Gemstone magic has been a bit, through Volo's guide and some in I believe 3E where you can plant spells in gems, but other than that nothing.
Drow were supposed to be very powerful in magic and had perhaps found some fell analog to High Magic and I assume this is all tied to faerzress. So is it a replacement system or more of an enhancement to Weave based spells.
I could see diet affecting spell like abilities. I don't recall the context, but I believe Ed has stated drow do require certain foods for proper health or digestion. |
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2014 : 19:13:53
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I do recall Faerzress magic and its effects (such as Drow SLAs) didn't work aftr time spent in the sun; and that that was changed because Liriel Baenre, priestess of Lolth, used a human artifact to keep her drow magic on the surface; an artifact which Lolth took advantage of to make that universal for all drow.
There were mentions of it in Tangled Webs, it referred to drow game mechanics in 2e, and the change was present in 3e. |
Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP) |
Edited by - Sylrae on 15 Nov 2014 19:18:51 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2014 : 23:06:32
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
They have gizzards?
No. They don't need gizzards. The stones are ground up into foodstuff-grade minerals. Think salt and pepper--not rocks. Sprinkle some faerzress-laced granules on your shrooms and rothé burger.
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Source, please?
No specific source. That was an interpretation of the older materials, which said that drow magic and magical items were degraded by exposure to sunlight. So there's got to be some sort of component of solar light that messes up drow magic. Clearly, it ain't visible light or infrared, as even drow conventional life underground is full of those. So it has to be something else.
Since we already know that UV rays cause lots of problems in the real world, UV makes a good candidate for the culprit.
But I don't have any particular source on that. It's just speculation.
That brings up another thought. You know how back in the day, "gamma rays" were the token explanation for lots of superheroes' super powers? What if faerzress is a low dose of gamma radiation? 
Does anybody know if gamma and UV interfere with each other, IRL? It would be so cool if they did, because that would make a perfect explanation for the traditional drow problem with sunlight. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2014 : 01:04:39
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| My assumption has been that faerzress was a form of radiation, and that it was broken down by UV. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2014 : 01:43:50
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quote:
My assumption has been that faerzress was a form of radiation, and that it was broken down by UV.
THIS along with Beast's speculations on the topic. I agree that UV rays are the most likely culprit though there is no direct statement to this in canon or the rules.
The Windwalker Amulet was used to carve a sigil in the the World Tree (or something similar to it) and thus was supposed to make drow SLAs work on the surface. This was modified in 3e to require feats to even have the abilities (which I always thought was rather dumb...just let the drow have their abilities...it's not that game breaking IMHO). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2014 : 12:17:18
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| UV? In a high magic setting like Forgotten Realms, with convenient back stories full of "hand-wavium" like the High Magic curse backed by the most powerful elven deity to send the drow away from the light, and even the light of Toril's sun being a direct power and representation of the sun god(s), you're going to say Ultra Violet Light is the culprit? Um... okay... wouldn't that be just a 2nd level spell for a wizard to research and create an item that would degrade and then blank drow abilities and items? Wouldn't be any different in requirements for casting light. If it were me I would tie the reason back to the curse and the divine light of the sun being the relationship of cause/effect of drowic loss in light. At the very least it prevents player shenanigans with science... unless that is the type of game you are aiming for. Otherwise, I don't think there is a need to be so specific. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2014 : 13:18:07
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
The Windwalker Amulet was used to carve a sigil in the the World Tree (or something similar to it) and thus was supposed to make drow SLAs work on the surface. This was modified in 3e to require feats to even have the abilities (which I always thought was rather dumb...just let the drow have their abilities...it's not that game breaking IMHO).
My interpretation of this was that before 3e, a drow who spent too long on the surface during the day lost all of their magic; including darkness and faerie fire.
I just assumed the change from "Drow can Levitate" to "Drow from money will have a house insignia that allows them to Levitate".
Though I'm sure I've seen Drow in the books (from the 2e period SND the 3e period) do these things more than 1/day. |
Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2014 : 14:04:15
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
UV? In a high magic setting like Forgotten Realms, with convenient back stories full of "hand-wavium" like the High Magic curse backed by the most powerful elven deity to send the drow away from the light, and even the light of Toril's sun being a direct power and representation of the sun god(s), you're going to say Ultra Violet Light is the culprit? Um... okay... wouldn't that be just a 2nd level spell for a wizard to research and create an item that would degrade and then blank drow abilities and items? Wouldn't be any different in requirements for casting light. If it were me I would tie the reason back to the curse and the divine light of the sun being the relationship of cause/effect of drowic loss in light. At the very least it prevents player shenanigans with science... unless that is the type of game you are aiming for. Otherwise, I don't think there is a need to be so specific.
Usually, though, if someone is harmed by the sun, it's the person, not their equipment.
Faerzress exists naturally in the Underdark, and it's what gives drow goodies their magic. If faerzress is a naturally-occurring radiation, where is the issue in another naturally-occurring radiation countering it?
As for researching a counter to it, I don't see that the drow would need one. Why find a way to counter the effects of sunlight when they avoid sunlight in general? I certainly don't reach for the SPF when I'm going to be inside and at work all day. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2014 : 14:33:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertUsually, though, if someone is harmed by the sun, it's the person, not their equipment.
In the case of Drow, it used to be both though, didn't it? Not only would Drow gear lose it's oomph, but Drow innate abilities also used to go away in sunlight.
quote:
Faerzress exists naturally in the Underdark, and it's what gives drow goodies their magic. If faerzress is a naturally-occurring
Wasn't there something in either WotSQ or TLP that said Faerzress isn't just "Magic That Stays" it's also Zress-Faer "Magic of Staying" or some-such, and that it was created using Elven high magic to help draw the Drow underground?
quote:
If faerzress is a naturally-occurring radiation, where is the issue in another naturally-occurring radiation countering it?
Sure, This makes sense to me; clearly *Something* in sunlight is doing it.
quote:
As for researching a counter to it, I don't see that the drow would need one. Why find a way to counter the effects of sunlight when they avoid sunlight in general? I certainly don't reach for the SPF when I'm going to be inside and at work all day.
Well, Liriel Baenre did exactly that (it was a major plot point), because she didn't want to lose her magic on the surface - which always hinted to me that perhaps drow wizardry may also be Faerzress-based.
Of course, post tangled Windwalker, Innate Drow magic and Drow wizardry work fine on the surface. I imagine the reason there is still degrading equipment rules in 3e is that the old stuff which was made before 1368 or 1369 when Windwalker takes place doesn't benefit from Lolth's manipulation of the windwalker and the world tree through Liriel. |
Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2014 : 15:00:20
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The write-up for Drow in the 2e Monstrous manual (best Monster book EVA!) said that Drow items (and magic) were 'psuedo-magical', in much the same way the Netherese magic was. Thus, a Faerzress Node provided the power in much the same way a Mythalar does.
I personally thought that was THE BEST take on it. Then Liriel came along and screwed everything up with here 'windwaker' (or whatever that artifact was called). So Elaine explained-away why Drow can now use their powers on the surface (something RAS should have done, but didn't bother). Drow items, however, should still be affected as they always were - the Rune Magic she used (I am still confused by all of that) should have only worked on the people: the powers are now truly 'innate' (no longer require Faerzress, which is why the bastiches are running around all over the surface these days).
I liken Faerzress nodes to the elemental magic nodes - they are just 'places of power' that tap-into planer energies (the Faerzress perhaps attuning to the plane of pure chaos - Limbo). Then again, I have only 9 planes in MY great Wheel, so its easier for me to think like that. Each plane has its own 'power' that can be tapped. The 'Pools of..." work in similar fashion (including Moonwells), except they can be attuned to a specific godly domain, rather then an entire Plane.
Just how I figure all that working - take it with a grain of salt. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Nov 2014 16:25:53 |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2014 : 15:46:35
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I've seen this topic rise before. Why does it have to be just sunlight that's the culprit destroying Drow magic? If it's a single source, it makes no sense for the Drow, who do venture to the surface, to craft magic items for a surface raid. What if it's a combination of things, including sunlight? Maybe sunlight by itself isn't enough, maybe fresh air - as opposed to the slower moving air of the Underdark caverns, combined with the reflective properties of the bedrock stones bouncing different types of magical radiations and emanations around, plus sunlight does it?
This way, a mage simply countering one effect might work for awhile, but it's not certain, much like predicting the weather. There are simply too many factors to counter the surface world's effects on Drow magic items, and the Drow and other scholars simply blame the sunlight because it's the most recognizable factor? |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2014 : 15:56:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Drow items, however, should still be affected as they always were - the Rune Magic she used (I am still confused by all of that) should have only worked on the people: the powers are now truly 'innate' (no longer require Faerzress, which is why the bastiches are running around all over the surface these days).
Well, tbh, if your argument is correct, I'm not sure why Liriel would have even been motivated to do the quest with the Windwalker. She was an accomplished wizard. Anything she could do as an SLA she could also do as a spell; and yet she frequently mentions that she "Needs" the windwalker because her magic is such an important part of her identity. The magic she uses in the book is almost exclusively wizardry rather than racial SLAs, honestly I'm not sure if she EVER uses her SLAs.
Which makes me think that Drow sorcery was intended to be the point there, not just the SLAs. Plus, drow magic items, as a general rule in 3.x, stick around just fine in daylight. And that leads me to the notion that magic items created by drow after 1369 are also affected by the events of the Starlight and Shadows series.
I do, however, find it amusing/interesting just how fractured the Drow race in Faerun is.
You have:
Crinti: Drow-Human Hybrids.
Drow Half-Elves: Drow-Elf Hybrids.
Drow: Stock Drow.
Noble Drow: Stock Drow plus more SLAs gained through feats(iffy on how this fits into the stories; only seems to exist in the RPG books).
Surface Drow: Drow who were on the surface prior to Starlight & Shadows, and therefore have no racial SLAs.
Lesser Drow: Drow with crappier stats & SLAs (players guide to Faerun).
Driders: Drow-Spider Hybrids, created by Lolth.
Draegloth: Drow-Demon (traditionally Glabrezu) hybids.
Dark-Elves: Dark Skinned elves (re)created in 1378 by a cabal of Drow high-mages, with assistance from Eilistraee. Never formally statted out, presumably very similar to Sun/Moon elves. |
Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP) |
Edited by - Sylrae on 16 Nov 2014 16:04:46 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2014 : 16:39:12
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I think you forgot the drowithids, Drow were-dragons, and the sea Drow.
But yeah, I see your point. I loved that series, but I found it very confusing. Her motivations were... odd. My best guess is that Lolth was manipulating her the whole time (and we see that she was), and that she never really needed to do what she did - that just helped other drow reach the surface and end their dependency on Faerzress.
What if... Elven Magic was originally ALL 'High Magic'? In other words, it was a blend of clerical and arcane magics sponsored by the Seldarine, and therefor needed their 'input' to function properly? We are talking about 11,000+ years ago - I am sure Elven magic was quite different back then. Thus, post-descent, Lolth would have had to have found another alternative for her people to still use magic, since the Seldarine were no longer responding to them. Maybe I got it wrong - maybe instead of 'chaos energy', the Faersrezz nodes are actually a cyst leading to the lower planes? That would account for why Auraushnee went there - she needed another power source.
Then fast-forward 11,000+ years and we have the Weave and Arcane Magic... and yes, that may have been there in some form back then, but who's to say the elves were using it? They could have adapted to 'human methods' of casting during their interaction with the Netherese (and the Nether scrolls). Now the elves no longer need 'Seldarine approval' for normal levels of magic, so why not the drow? I think all the Windwalker may have done is break the link Lolth established with faerzress nodes and liked them to the weave, instead.
And that could also help lend credence to why she wanted to create her own Weave (the Demon Weave) and become the goddess of magic (in direct opposition to Corellon, who's position as said deity has been waning since the Elves have found 'newer methods').
Just supposition, is all. More to think about and all that.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Nov 2014 16:42:43 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2014 : 18:19:55
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In Homeland, it was noted that drow magic went wonky when on the surface. The Academy even banned wizards from going with on raids, though some suspected the "accident" was just an attempt to kill some rivals. Liriel believed, right or wrong that her magic would burn away with the sun.
It's possible that drow spellcasting was attuned to the faerzress, that without its influence magic would sometimes go wild. Drizzt always claimed (right or wrong) that the magic of his people outstripped anything he ever saw on the surface. The easiest though overpowered option is to have no level caps on spells, much like Pre-ToT spells or just to raise them a few levels. 15d6 fireballs etc.
At any rate, if they are so powerful, this type of magic issue they have is a good reason to keep them bottled up in their holes. I'd be curious to know how House Dhuurniv and the drow from old school Shadowdale overcame or dealt with this issue.
Liriel effectively cast something on par with High Magic, so you may be right that Lolth had her hand in that. Prepping the drow for their later invasions that we saw with Rise of the Underdark or some such and her bid on Mystra's domain. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2014 : 19:57:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
This might just be me, but I always assumed faerzress magic was a different form of magic, much like Table Magic, or Gemstone Magic.
It's obviously a subtype of quasimagic (i.e. use of magical secondary power sources, like Netherese toys, personal mythal attunement, etc) and was called such in some official lore.
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And the funny thing is, none of these have really been developed. Gemstone magic has been a bit, through Volo's guide and some in I believe 3E where you can plant spells in gems, but other than that nothing.
It's more of a nerf of focal stone from VGtATM. 
quote:
Drow were supposed to be very powerful in magic and had perhaps found some fell analog to High Magic
Because everything should have a Counterpart(TM)? 
Drow have their own ways. Radiation quasimagic, personal enchantments, artifice... if you have develop on these, there are ways. Further developments in radiation SLA/infusion (this was used in "Drow of the Underdark"-3.5, but in a rather clunky fashion), for example. If you want to go extreme - this can be done, too.
quote:
and I assume this is all tied to faerzress. So is it a replacement system or more of an enhancement to Weave based spells.
I asked about how much radiation magic is part of the Weave (there are obvious situations when this matters), but no answer yet.
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
The stones are ground up into foodstuff-grade minerals. Think salt and pepper--not rocks. Sprinkle some faerzress-laced granules on your shrooms and rothé burger.
Pepper is very soft. Salt is very soluble in water, which is why normally consuming it does not involve chewing on crystals. So... adamantine teeth, then? 
quote:
No specific source. [...] That was an interpretation of the older materials, which said that drow magic and magical items were degraded by exposure to sunlight. So there's got to be some sort of component of solar light that messes up drow magic. Clearly, it ain't visible light or infrared, as even drow conventional life underground is full of those. So it has to be something else.
Since we already know that UV rays cause lots of problems in the real world, UV makes a good candidate for the culprit.
So... vampires burn in UV, too? (I won't even bother to joke about it, as that one was done to death and more)
quote:
That brings up another thought. You know how back in the day, "gamma rays" were the token explanation for lots of superheroes' super powers? What if faerzress is a low dose of gamma radiation?
You so don't want me to run away with this one... No, wait, something like that also was done - in Mystara. Oh, well.
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Does anybody know if gamma and UV interfere with each other, IRL?
IRL it's nonsensical (exactly how?). In the ads-coated labyrinths of American Science(TM) - maybe is likely to start soon. Aristotlean mechanics already moved in, after all. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2014 : 03:59:28
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
UV? In a high magic setting like Forgotten Realms, with convenient back stories full of "hand-wavium" like the High Magic curse backed by the most powerful elven deity to send the drow away from the light, and even the light of Toril's sun being a direct power and representation of the sun god(s), you're going to say Ultra Violet Light is the culprit? Um... okay... wouldn't that be just a 2nd level spell for a wizard to research and create an item that would degrade and then blank drow abilities and items? Wouldn't be any different in requirements for casting light.
Q: is arcanely-fabricated *stuff* (ultraviolet energy or otherwise) really the exact same as the wholly natural variety? Or is like synthetized goods and materials, which are really close approximations, but not quite the same?
If there is a slightest difference, then that might explain why drow don't fear quasi-UV light spells.
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If it were me I would tie the reason back to the curse and the divine light of the sun being the relationship of cause/effect of drowic loss in light.
That sounds cool, too. I haven't read "TLP", either, so I'm not too familiar with how that works.
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At the very least it prevents player shenanigans with science... unless that is the type of game you are aiming for. Otherwise, I don't think there is a need to be so specific.
But doesn't it just open the door to shenanigans with "magic", instead? You're just substituting one complicated mess with another one, aren't you? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2014 : 04:08:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae
My interpretation of this was that before 3e, a drow who spent too long on the surface during the day lost all of their magic; including darkness and faerie fire.
Drizzt lost both his magical items and his higher innate SLA of levitation in Sojourn. However, oddly enough, he did not lose globe of darkness or faerie fire.
Some have hypothesized that Montolio taught Drizzt substitute ranger SLAs instead, which closely mimic lower-level drow SLAs. If so, then those would not be sensitive to sunlight.
quote:
Though I'm sure I've seen Drow in the books (from the 2e period SND the 3e period) do these things more than 1/day.
The only ones I've seen do it repeatedly had emblems.
I don't really know what good a once-per-day ability would be, anyway. What goes up must come back down, right?
So maybe the fine print on the once-per-day rule is that it is actually good for one round trip up and back down per day.
But still, even that seems awfully limited... |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2014 : 04:23:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae
Wasn't there something in either WotSQ or TLP that said Faerzress isn't just "Magic That Stays" it's also Zress-Faer "Magic of Staying" or some-such, and that it was created using Elven high magic to help draw the Drow underground?
I believe that's what I've heard.
But that only sounds like a tale of magical origin.
Once magic instituted the Curse and created the rocks that give off the radiation/energy/emanations/etc., though, it could be said to be naturally occurring.
If a god created the universe and all that is in it, the universe had a supernatural or magical origin. But that doesn't change the fact that what exists in it now is naturally occuring. Magically originating and naturally occurring are not necessarily contradictory or exclusive.
quote:
Well, Liriel Baenre did exactly that (it was a major plot point), because she didn't want to lose her magic on the surface - which always hinted to me that perhaps drow wizardry may also be Faerzress-based.
What did she do, exactly?
1. Did she protect drow magic from being damaged from the sun?
2. And/or did she protect drow magic from ever depleting and needing to be replenished?
My understanding is that she did #1, but not #2. (Man, that sounds so bad!  )
But it is also my understanding that faerzress is a type of radiating energy, which means that something in the source stone matter is converted to or broken down into an energy form and released into the ambient environment. This means that the source matter changes over time, and eventually loses its ability to give off any more such energy. Also, whatever absorbs this energy only retains it for so long, before it eventually re-radiates or changes into some other form, as well, so items which have absorbed the energy must be re-energized occasionally.
Did 3E eliminate the recharging rules too? Or just the solar damage rules? This is a pretty important distinction.
quote:
Of course, post tangled Windwalker, Innate Drow magic and Drow wizardry work fine on the surface. I imagine the reason there is still degrading equipment rules in 3e is that the old stuff which was made before 1368 or 1369 when Windwalker takes place doesn't benefit from Lolth's manipulation of the windwalker and the world tree through Liriel.
Are these 3E rules actually rules of solar damage, or only rules of faerzress depletion over time? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2014 : 04:34:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
I've seen this topic rise before. Why does it have to be just sunlight that's the culprit destroying Drow magic? If it's a single source, it makes no sense for the Drow, who do venture to the surface, to craft magic items for a surface raid.
Drow loved to perform nighttime raids on surface communities back in the day. They had no problem with fresh air. It definitely was something specifically in the sunlight which gave them the heebie-jeebies.
quote:
What if it's a combination of things, including sunlight? Maybe sunlight by itself isn't enough, maybe fresh air - as opposed to the slower moving air of the Underdark caverns, combined with the reflective properties of the bedrock stones bouncing different types of magical radiations and emanations around, plus sunlight does it?
This way, a mage simply countering one effect might work for awhile, but it's not certain, much like predicting the weather. There are simply too many factors to counter the surface world's effects on Drow magic items, and the Drow and other scholars simply blame the sunlight because it's the most recognizable factor?
I'm with you there, but on more than just the grounds of what happens to their magic. Drow leaders manipulated their people to avoid the surface for a lot of different reasons. Part of it was because their magic went wonky, but that was not the only reason. Conflict arose whenever drow went up top, and as much as drow glorify death and mayhem and all that jazz, a society cannot survive if those things are all it knows, all the time. So drow leaders had to try to instill some types of societal stability, and that meant drawing limits or boundaries on their people's behaviors. Even chaotic races have their rules.
"Don't step into the light, Carol Anne!" might be an extremely oversimplified command, which omits all sorts of other very important advice. But it served a useful purpose, within the overall scheme of government and leadership orchestrated by drow authorities.
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"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Did Drow Nobles Lose Levitate as an Innate Power?
