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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Nov 2014 : 20:21:49
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I was asking earlier about spanish/latin equivalents, but is there are a concept of generalised regions and cultures? Like I know you have the Sword coast, the Shining lands, but how would you classify "Slavic" like countries including Rashemen etc.?
In particular when it comes to accents!
It would help a lot for my story as I'm sort of writing My Fae Lady atm.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2014 : 21:25:30
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I think it's better to stay away from real world analogues and focus on what makes places like Rashemen unique in the Realms. In other words, come up with some Rashemi words to intersperse in the text, sayings, dress, locations. In other words, create an image in the mind of the reader as to what Rashemen looks and feel like that is unique to the Realms, not Russia with magic wands.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7972 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2014 : 22:53:19
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I agree wholeheartedly with Grand Realms Poobah Krashos on this matter.
Nonetheless, such real world analogies and comparisons have been discussed numerous times at Candlekeep (and similar sites). Far more than I care to list. An easy way to locate such scrolls would be a google search with the site:forum.candlekeep.com parameter and a nationalistic keyword or two (Spanish/Spain, French/France, Russian/Russia, etc). |
[/Ayrik] |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2014 : 23:02:33
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I'm not talking about individual nations but general regions and if there are names for them. Such as the Sword Coast. Is there a name of the Eastern bloc countries, etc.? And are there common accents, elements of culture etc.
Also the problem with having entirely originally countries is that it's hard to provide a frame of reference. While many places in the Realms are obviously original fantasy creations without some real world cultural elements it becomes very difficult to deviate from a more narrow view of a typical western european fantasy setting, or provide context for things. Unfortunately most "originally" fantasy settings tend to be more or less that - there are a few such as the world of Tamriel in the Elder Scrolls - but we're always going to be drawing from some real world archetypes regardless, which is why I think it's always best to go for a mix of "Places without real world equivalents" and "rough cultural analogues". Does that make sense? |
Edited by - Roseweave on 03 Nov 2014 23:39:39 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2014 : 23:16:17
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| You could always go with names from sourcebooks/boxed sets. The Unapproachable East, The Shining South, etc... Though those are generally geographic references; not really aware of cultural groupings in the Realms that would be the equivalent of real-world cultural groupings, beyond some broad racial ones, like "elven" or "dwarven" lands. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2014 : 01:33:47
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Well, there are some things (if I understand your question):
Damarans live in the area of the Moonsea, Vaasa and (obviously) Damara.
Impilturans (sp?) live in both Impiltur, the southern "Vast" and Cormyr...right?
Sembia was essentially colonized by peoples from the Vilhoun of Chondathan stock.
So if you are looking for a racial grouping, I think they are pretty much set out already...lots of resources to pull from on that; sorry I don't have time to list them. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Xal Valzar
Learned Scribe
Argentina
214 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2014 : 20:32:01
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well the closest thing that comes close to russia if u ask me is the Duregar and thier blind pursuit of production for the sense of production. thats the USSR feel you get from it.
also u have to be more specific about what Russia. |
Knowledge is Power |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7972 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2014 : 00:32:09
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Amn and Calimshan seem like straight-out ripoffs of Spain and Portugal, take your pick which is which. Exotic Zakhara, the Land of Fate, is very obviously Persian/Arabian. Kara-Tur and Shou are clearly Realms-China and Realms-Japan. Then theres the Moonshaes and the North and the Saharan Anauroch. Its all troped cliche, but the published Realms were once a much less sophisticated place.
Vaasa and Damara seem Russian-like to me. The Moonsea region is a bit like the Ukraine in terms of continental access. The Thayglorondshemi area seems a bit like Iberian Turkey. And the halfling Shaar seems too much like the hobbit Shire. Mulhorand and popularly archetyped Egypt are interchangeable.
Cant find any Realms version of Switzerland, I admit. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2014 : 03:28:37
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| Btw semi related, is there a pronunciation guide for the realms? How do you pronounce Amn? |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2014 : 05:56:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Roseweave
Btw semi related, is there a pronunciation guide for the realms? How do you pronounce Amn?
Omm.
I thought I'd gathered several guides together, but I can't find it now. This should be a good start; linked from another scroll. |
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Lyiat
Seeker
91 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2014 : 10:01:25
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| Going by the Baldur's Gate games, I'd have to say 'Ah-mm'. At least that's how all the guards pronounced it when they shouted, "FOR THE GLORY OF AMN" after Edwin 'accidentally' fireballed their mayor. Twice. |
"Stand and deliver, that my hamster might have a better look at you." ~ Minsc |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2014 : 11:57:54
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quote:
Cant find any Realms version of Switzerland, I admit.
The Silver Marches would be your closest call. |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2014 : 18:30:10
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Switzerland...
I always thought the Dales fit perfectly the Cantons of Switzerland...just not mountainous. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2014 : 20:01:32
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| I think of the Dales as one, great big 'Sherwood Forest', where the sheriff is more laid-back and oft not even around. I guess the Zhents can be the Sheriff. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2014 : 20:57:11
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Ah good cause like I'm writing a story about one of my characters that's a bit like My Fair Lady(it's called "My Fae Lady").
I just came up with the 'enry 'iggins type phrase “The Balm from Amn works wonders on her Palms.”
I think it's clever. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7972 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2014 : 03:19:00
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| Never heard Zhent Sheriffs being described as laid back. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2014 : 16:48:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Amn and Calimshan seem like straight-out ripoffs of Spain and Portugal, take your pick which is which. Exotic Zakhara, the Land of Fate, is very obviously Persian/Arabian. Kara-Tur and Shou are clearly Realms-China and Realms-Japan. Then theres the Moonshaes and the North and the Saharan Anauroch. Its all troped cliche, but the published Realms were once a much less sophisticated place.
Vaasa and Damara seem Russian-like to me. The Moonsea region is a bit like the Ukraine in terms of continental access. The Thayglorondshemi area seems a bit like Iberian Turkey. And the halfling Shaar seems too much like the hobbit Shire. Mulhorand and popularly archetyped Egypt are interchangeable.
Cant find any Realms version of Switzerland, I admit.
Well, Personaly Damara seems to me more like mix of late medival and Poland and Germany(more specificaly, the Holy Roman Empire), and the latter Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Vaasa seems like a mix between pre-Christian Poland, Lithuania, and Finland. Not mention, Nova Vaasa from Ravenloft, is supposed to be mix of Denmark, and Poland. Vaasa is also a a city on the west coast of Finland.
Moonsea aways seemed to me like mix of Central Europe, the Baltic Sea, and the counties around it, Carpathian Mountains, and as mentioned by you, Ayrik, Ukraine.
I think Raumathar and Raumvira, are the closest to Russia, along with Rashemen also resembing it a bit. Although Rashemen just seems to mostly a Slavic Fairy Tale land, with a bit of Norse stuff, from the Rus. |
Edited by - Baltas on 11 Nov 2014 19:20:08 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7972 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2014 : 22:46:22
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Rashamen social structure (replete with sullen, superstitious peasants and obviously pagan wicca matriarchs of power) strikes me as being remarkably similar to old Romania, Moldavia, Transylvania.
My Moonsea=Ukraine impression is not just based on strategic convenience, its more than just a land corridor through rougher terrain, more than just fine access to seaports. Its also a rugged (and cold, wet, temperate) area blessed by nature with an abundance of natural resources. And cursed by history with a dominant theme of foreign oppression (along with an endless struggle against it). |
[/Ayrik] |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2014 : 23:14:22
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Dunno, Rashemen also remainds me of more of what was written by Romans, about German tribes, who were supposedly to be ruled by witches, who were even above chieftains, and kings. Were did you read about matriarchy, in the Carpathian regions Ayrik? Because it seems very interesting. In general, as opposed to some accusations, countries and cultures in the Realms, are more often than not, very mixed up in inspirations, and real world analogues.
Although I wouldn't really describe Ukraine as cold, aside from winters. Although your reasons, aside from that, are those why Moonsea also reminds me a bit of Ukraine. |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2014 : 23:26:30
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The problem with trying to equate areas of the Realms with real-world analogues is that they just don't fit, down at the level of daily-life detail. Which is why Ed of the Greenwood has always warned us not to do so, no matter how much some designers or gamers use a real-world region (or their mental maps of it, or of how Hollywood has depicted it in vrious times in history) as mental shorthand.
For instance: "Amn and Calimshan seem like straight-out ripoffs of Spain and Portugal, take your pick which is which."
Nope. Not to me. Not even close. (And I have a problem with anyone who thinks Spain and Portugal are interchangeable.)
"Exotic Zakhara, the Land of Fate, is very obviously Persian/Arabian. Kara-Tur and Shou are clearly Realms-China and Realms-Japan."
True, because we know from the comments of various TSR designers that they developed these add-ons as deliberate echoes of those real-world places.
"The Saharan Anauroch"? Seems to me someone hasn't read FR14 Anauroch, the only detailed (and Ed-penned, as it happens) sourcebook to the area. The hot sand region of Anauroch is only its southernmost arc. Desert means little rainfall, and Anauroch gives us all sorts of desert, including icy.
So, no, it's NOT "all troped cliche."
And although I've read Elaine Cunningham commenting that she was thinking of Rashemen as Slavic when writing scenes set in it, I've never before read or heard of anyone comparing the Moonsea to the Ukraine. I'm sure its creator, Ed Greenwood, would find such a comparison a stretch.
And this comment just leaves me bewildered: "And the halfling Shaar seems too much like the hobbit Shire." Being as the Shaar is a vast and wild grassland steppe region roamed by various races (wemics, the loxo, giants, and wild herds of hoofed animals), not a halfling land at all, I just don't see it.
So I'd be wary of drawing too-close parallels between the Realms and our world, except in your own campaign, for your own convenience. I know attempts to do so always make Ed Greenwood sigh and shake his head.
BB
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2014 : 23:39:31
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I think Ayrik was making most of the comparisions roughly, and half-jokingly, as he largely agreed with George Krashos' advice to better to stay away from real world analogues. And I agree with you, as I myself written that quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
In general, as opposed to some accusations, countries and cultures in the Realms, are more often than not, very mixed up in inspirations, and real world analogues.
Although, I think if you read a bit about Ukraine's history, I think you too will see some obvious similarities to the Moonsea region. |
Edited by - Baltas on 13 Nov 2014 00:13:42 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7972 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2014 : 02:10:45
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Troped cliche might have been a bit overemphatic. My impression of the Realms - primarily the Heartlands, Cormyr, Sembia, the Dales, etc - is flavoured by 1E-era sources. Back then things were smaller, the Moonsea was pretty much the edge of the map, places like Amn and Thay and even Waterdeep were distant and exotic, places like Chult and Zakhara were almost legendary and about as inaccessible as the Lower Planes. Back then, peoples and cultures of the (small) Realms were formed from pretty straightforward stereotypes - it was only as events played out and characters defined themselves through their (re)actions that the Realms, to me, seemed to differentiate itself from real world analogies. I am willing to concede that early core Realmslore began as tropy cliche, but over time it developed sophistications and subtleties which gave the Realms a unique identity unparallelled by anything found on our world.
I lived in the Ukraine for some years, along with other parts of Eastern Europe. It can indeed become very cold during winter seasons, but in general its slightly milder than the temperate conditions of my current home, Vancouver.
I have often been surprised at the lack of a Byzantium/Constantinople/Instanbul sort of city at the mouth of the River Lis, connecting the Moonsea with the Sea of Fallen Stars. The fabulously enigmatic Lady THO has lightly chastised me before for criticizing the conspicuous lack of such a major settlement, citing other (unspecified, but implied to be significant) reasons for things in the Moonsea region being exactly as they are. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2014 : 22:10:51
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| And to clarify, Nova Vaasa from Ravenloft, is actualy a piece of Vaasa, pulled from Toril. |
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Regional equivalents to "European", "Slavic" etc.
