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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Nov 2014 : 14:03:04
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So with the gods of Faerun being able to spread stories directly through their avatars to their worshippers or clergy, what do you think are possible motivations for the ones we know about. For example: Yheenogu, the Demonlord of Butchery, has started a myth about him creating gnolls through the union of demons and hyenadons. This has sabotaged the far less talkative but ancient hyena-god Gorellik out of the last vestiges of worship he had amongst gnolls and flinds.
The 'War of Light and Darkness' between the twin godesses Shar and Selune could very well be a similar. Both goddesses confirm this 'war' and it's referenced by other dieties aswell, mostly because it created them (with the creation of Mystryl as the temporary end of the first stage of the war).
What could be Selunes ultimate motivation in spreading this story in Faerunian culture? Does the theme of both creation and destruction, despair and hope conserve some kind of moral or practical lesson that people of Toril need to know? Is it merely a means to explain the current religious struggle between the two churches and a way to make people make a moral stand in the ancient quarrel she has with Shar?
How much of it is even true?
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2014 : 15:28:34
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It might just be me, but if i were a god, i wouldnt waste creating an avatar so that i could tell a story to my worshippers.
We have very very few instances of avatars manifesting directly on Toril and they are usually for epic combat or dire threats
Deities act through manifestation far more often than avatars, but even then not that often. Servants are much more likely to be sent to impart information that is needed.
I prefer to think of events in comparison to real world history. If you have ever seen the film Troy where the priest predicts victory because he saw a bird with something in its claws then thats what i'm referring to.
A priest might have some kind of divine servant turn up at his doorstep and tell him the history of the war of light and darkness and bid him go forth and preach it to the masses. Perhaps the servant is truly a servant of his god, perhaps he is a servant of someone else in disguise.
Then again the priest might have a dream, a vivid dream, and he then looks out the window and sees one of the many portents of his god (a particularly large moon in the early morning). He believes that means his god is telling him the dream is true and so goes out and tells everyone (of course everyone else saw the large moon and so all those worshippers will believe something else personal to them and their situation).
Finally you could have some lunatic hear a story that he like (and misinterprets) He prays to his god to send him a sign that it isnt true. Nothing happens, because the god has 6 million other worshippers demanding that she darn their socks, make them rich, keep them alive, make them well, etc, and so the lunatic has proof this work of fiction in his head is true and off he goes to preach it.
Whether the story gets spread around or not largely depends upon how long he lives, how charismatic he is, and whether anyone is willing to listen.
Of course thats just my take on things. If it were me, i wouldnt be planning a battle strategy based on bird sign.  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2014 : 19:22:45
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I think - just like our RW myths - that somewhere back in time they were 'based in truth', or rather, the truth that people believe they witnessed/heard/read/etc (so in the case of RW myths, primitive peoples may have been seeing things hey couldn't comprehend, and therefor described them in the best terms they could).
In FR, the gods are very real, and thats a double-edged sword. While you can theorize that the myths are also very real, because you have the actual gods themselves (and/or their churches) to ask, you are faced with the very real possibility of said gods lying their asses off (even the 'good' ones).
Then one can lump-in some philosophical musings about the nature of 'the Planes' themselves, and deities, and how mortal belief shapes reality (and even changes it). Thus, what was once true may no longer be true. Especially when you consider there have been several 'time altering' affects, on a planetary (universal?) scale. The best example of how this works can be seen in Ravenloft - that world (demi-plane) is ever-evolving and changing, and yet, the people don't recognize any of it (the changes).
So, we go right back to the way most folks look at myths in the RW - they are probably based on some small truth, but the story has gotten a 'life of its own' over the centuries, and there is no way of telling anymore how much was truth, and how much fiction. Churches actually cause this a LOT more then the gods themselves, because they have agendas and want to represent any lore regarding their god in 'the best possible light' (even if that means showing their gods as insanely evil) to further their goals (which is usually to expand the church and and therefor their own power-base).
Broke this up because it was so damn long. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Nov 2014 13:48:14 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2014 : 19:24:42
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Continued... Now, to go off an related (sort-of) homebrew tangent...
In my 'proto-lore' (for the entirety of the multiverse), I have it where there were five (main) 'Creator Races' (Creatori). The Fey (a name given them by others) were one of those five, and they learned early not to trust anyone else. The first fey were beings of pure energy, almost like demi-gods in their own right. They were able to take physical form by 'anchoring' their energy (spirit) to a physical object or location, so they could interact with the world around them. They choose trees, meadows, waterfalls, etc... even hills and mountains, for this. They became linked to the natural world in this way, and this was the very beginning of 'place magic'.
These 'first fey' were a collective - a group of telepathic beings all part for a 'greater whole'. However, when they took physical form they lost a lot of their abilities, or their abilities were dampened. They became cut-off in many ways form the 'Fey Collective'. This made them vulnerable. So the Elder Fey (Archfey) - the most powerful of their kind - devised a method of mutual protection. An area that they can all go to - whatever form they were in - and seek refuge. A place that would be protected from all outside influences, magic and otherwise. They called these places 'Myth'. A human might translate that to mean 'safehold' or some such, but in truth, it just meant 'the gathering place'.
So in later years, after the majority of their kind left for the Feywild (Faerie), and all that was left were those few who were too weak - too far removed from their Fey heritage to convert back to energy and remained in physical form, anchored to a myriad of worlds, they retreated from human (and other) eyes. Retreated back into the 'places of myth'. Most are hidden so well on many worlds, other beings there remain ignorant of their existence.
As for the Fey that left for the Feywild - they became anchored to their new world (plane). This was part of the price they paid for saving themselves. They could leave for short periods, but after a time they would begin to 'dwindle' (they would literally lose physical substance as they 'burned through' the energy required to maintain a form outside the Feywild). This is why you will never find a 'True fey' very far from a fairy circle (a portal to the Feywld). In a way, Faerie became 'Myth itself' for them.
They had children, though, Children born to a physical form, who were able to leave the Feywild and travel about the prime Material. These new (lesser) fey were called the 'el' (children/offspring). In time, many of these el (like Cor-el lion) became disatisfied would the rule of 'their betters', and left to found a homeland of their own - Tintageer was but one of these. They settled lands in the Feywild beyond Faerie (court), and they called their new settlements 'myth', the ancient Fey word for 'gathering place', and as their language and culture evolved and grew apart from that of their forbears, the word became synonymous with 'settlement', and then 'city'. The el that stayed behind were known as El'ves, or 'loyal children'. The ones that left to determine their own fate were known as the El'Adrin, or 'wayward children'. Like the True Fey, they too preferred to stay away from others, hidden behind myth. At least, until many were driven from their homes by a war.
And so, the El'Adrin entered the Prime Material that their Fey parents had left behind. A world greatly changed and ruled by ignoble savages. The other Creatori were nowhere to be seen - themselves greatly altered or having fled just like the Fey. On many worlds they encountered the el'ves - their sylvan counterparts - who had been sent-ahead to make-way for their arrival by the Archfey. And so they built new myths - new settlements for mutual protection, where they could hide from prying eyes. They raised new protective magics - based on ancient fey rituals - around their cities, and called them Mythals.
Later, when the Netherese of Toril discovered the Elves and began to interact with them, they looked upon the Elven cities and their Mythals with wonder. They created their own 'safe places', and called their cities Mythallar (the suffix 'lar' in Netherese means 'greater', and in their hubris they thought they were).
And thats how I explain the various usages of the word 'Myth' in FR, D&D, and just about everything else. Different meanings, but all leading back to that first meaning - a place where 'magical creatures' can just disappear into and hide from mortal eyes. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Nov 2014 19:29:54 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2014 : 20:46:35
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I agree with both Dazzlerdal and Markustay. What they described is exactly how it works in my Realms.
I think the novels have skewed the perspective on just how active the gods are (physically) in the world. Overwhelmingly--like 95% of the time--they are acting through dream visions and symbolic manifestations. Another 4.9999% of the time they are sending some type of divine servant to physically do their bidding. Then there are the 0.00001% of the time where we will get an actual avatar, and usually that is when (as Dazzlerdal points out) in a really epic moment to do some serious battle.
The overwhelming majority of the time mortals are trying to decipher the will of the gods through their own fallible lens. This inevitably leads to disagreements, local and regional changes in practice... even heresies and outright schisms.
This brings us to the point Markustay brought up. I personally integrate FR lore and Planescape lore since they were so closely linked at one point. We know beliefs can shift and change the way planes function in Planescape, and as a result I have the same happen to deities. Deities grow and evolve with their worshipers. This is often how deities do battle with one another--for example, Talos' attempt to seize control over the portfolio of Wild Magic from Mystra. |
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Xal Valzar
Learned Scribe
Argentina
214 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2014 : 21:01:03
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the only thing to do with myths is for a charcter to try to induce all he knows of current events he witnessed into a whole explanation. while putting things he saw with his very own senses as the primary and then arranging myths on the most bottom rung of said things to integrate. honestly one can not belive what any 'oracle' says. Gods in FR are fallible just as - or perhaps more so - then humanoids. the only way to belive a theory is to see how it integrates with a total of knowledge.
that is what a rational character would do. and for all we know ALL myths in FR might be false. |
Knowledge is Power |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2014 : 21:25:06
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Some of the highest ranking clergy have the power to travel to their lords domains through planar travel, where they could verify myths with all the messengers, petitioners and sages who are in near constant presence of their god. Most dieties have strongholds on their planes, were an audience with them is not impossible to arrange.
I am apt to favor the view that the gods and their servants are blatant liers, spinning tales to counteract some of the effects of their public perception shifting their portfolios and powers overmuch. With spiritual agents, dream visions and personal advice to the highest ranking mortal agents they have controlled much of fearunians knowledge about 'prehistoric' or 'mythic times'.
Ever since the written word became more widespread, and sages began recording history clergy of the faerunian pantheons might actually have felt threatened by the historians adherence to 'facts' and 'accurate dates'. I see their reactions to this as varying from book burnings, to hangings of important historical researchers spouting blasphemy, to actually working with historians en knowledge gathered in the wider multiverse to find evidence for the myths. Clerics in typical parties tend to be literal myth busters, who if they survive their adventures, will probably write down the evidence or proof of some obscure myth that they collected over years of search guided by their deities.
I can see some periods in time where religious wars were largely fought by books too. I think Power of Faerun talks about this abit, but the written words of the higher echelons in a clergy are considered holy scriptures containing insight about the dogma or essence of their deity. An important high ranking hermit might have written down shocking revelations about the Dawn Cataclysm, his tome molding on some bookshelf in a deep wood... |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2014 : 02:17:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Some of the highest ranking clergy have the power to travel to their lords domains through planar travel, where they could verify myths with all the messengers, petitioners and sages who are in near constant presence of their god. Most dieties have strongholds on their planes, were an audience with them is not impossible to arrange.
I am apt to favor the view that the gods and their servants are blatant liers, spinning tales to counteract some of the effects of their public perception shifting their portfolios and powers overmuch. With spiritual agents, dream visions and personal advice to the highest ranking mortal agents they have controlled much of fearunians knowledge about 'prehistoric' or 'mythic times'.
Ever since the written word became more widespread, and sages began recording history clergy of the faerunian pantheons might actually have felt threatened by the historians adherence to 'facts' and 'accurate dates'. I see their reactions to this as varying from book burnings, to hangings of important historical researchers spouting blasphemy, to actually working with historians en knowledge gathered in the wider multiverse to find evidence for the myths. Clerics in typical parties tend to be literal myth busters, who if they survive their adventures, will probably write down the evidence or proof of some obscure myth that they collected over years of search guided by their deities.
I can see some periods in time where religious wars were largely fought by books too. I think Power of Faerun talks about this abit, but the written words of the higher echelons in a clergy are considered holy scriptures containing insight about the dogma or essence of their deity. An important high ranking hermit might have written down shocking revelations about the Dawn Cataclysm, his tome molding on some bookshelf in a deep wood...
Yes, this is true in some cases, but I do not believe it is universal. Deities such as Denier and Oghma, for example, would be highly committed to the preservation of knowledge and the truth. ...or at least "the truth" as mortals would define it. I think "truth" is much more subjective when you are dealing with deities, because after all... what does truth mean to a god? The very multiverse itself is mutable, shifting and evolving over time with the belief of its inhabitants. The truth and reality to mortals as opposed to beings such as gods, is not unlike the difference between Newtonian Physics and Quantum Mechanics.
It may even be that the gods themselves do not know the truth, their minds and essences being shifted by the beliefs of their worshipers. Shar and Selune, for example, may very well believe the creation myth to be literal truth just as their faithful do... even if the literal truth is something different.
Then there is the issues of division within the cults and faiths themselves... there are going to be those who embrace literalism, inerrancy and infallibility and those who view the religion and its holy texts as allegorical and metaphorical. So you could have two Selunites arguing over whether or not the creation myth is true--one believing that it is literal, that it is a perfect and absolute accounting of real history without any errors, and another Selunite who believes it is a general allegorical myth designed to tell a complicated story and impart certain divine teachings and knowledge to the faith. Selune would accept both priestesses equally, but they may have such strong disagreements about the fundamental tenants and purposes of their faith that they despise one another.
When it comes to visiting the deities on the planes... well, things get a bit more complicated. I personally go with the: 'the plane reflects your personal beliefs about the deity' route. In other words, you cannot see the truth of the plane--it is beyond your ability as a mortal. However, the plane does reflect what you believe to be true. This is a sort of Ravenloft-esqe approach turned up to 11.
There are certain planes, the outter planes for example, that remain stable and reflect fundamental aspects of the multiverse. The Nine Hells represent Lawful Evil, and reflect that existence at its most basic core... and things there over time will shift to conform to Lawful Evil. This means that if someone is taken and imprisoned in the Nine Hells, then over time THEY will be the ones that shift to conform to the planes. However, when we are dealing with the domains of deities the opposite is true. This is one of the reasons that fiends and the like have historically looked down upon the nature of godhood. Being a deity may give you immense power, but you are effectively a slave to mortal desires and beliefs. Your very identity could, at some point, be erased or altered as a result of mortal misgivings. A being such as Asmodeus would absolutely (and rightfully) find this abhorrent.
In my Realms mortals are the most important beings because they are truly the only beings with free will. The deities are bound to their faithful, and outsiders such as devils, are controlled by their nature. Deities may have independent desires, and try to 'guide' their followers one way or another--but in the end, they are dependent on their faithful. Devils will never be able to willingly choose to be Chaotic Evil like a Demon, nor could they choose to be Lawful Good or any other alignment. They are what they are, and they can never change unless they are somehow bound to another plane for a significant amount of time. In which case that plane would alternate their fundamental nature.
I like the way that I handle things because it gives the most flexibility, and makes mortal worshipers and their cults more important. It shifts the focus away from the deity and back to where it belongs--their priests and lay worshipers. ...and of course, it also provides the fuel that is essential for every story: conflict. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2014 : 14:14:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Yes, this is true in some cases, but I do not believe it is universal. Deities such as Denier and Oghma, for example, would be highly committed to the preservation of knowledge and the truth. ...or at least "the truth" as mortals would define it. I think "truth" is much more subjective when you are dealing with deities, because after all... what does truth mean to a god? The very multiverse itself is mutable, shifting and evolving over time with the belief of its inhabitants. The truth and reality to mortals as opposed to beings such as gods, is not unlike the difference between Newtonian Physics and Quantum Mechanics. <snip>
I addressed the last part just a bit in my own musings - how there can never be a definitive 'truth'. Even books would change when truth changed (unless shielded by some deity-level magic, or higher). I think being on other planes may help, but just a little. In other words, if Elminster knows the history of The Flanaess (Oerth/GH) somewhat, and then travels there at some later date and finds things... different... he may think it odd, but then he would quickly forget about it (exposure to the region would affect your own memories over time). Elminster might be a bad example - Chosen probably have some protection where this is concerned (although the gods themselves are affected by the changes, because 'mortal belief' alters the universe).
But it was really the first part I wanted to address, because I wanted to discuss that as well, but my post had already grown to no-one-will-read-it size.
Oghma - and other 'gods of knowledge' - would obscure the truth, but not in ways that are overt. They would not want knowledge to 'get-out' that would be harmful, especially if it proved damaging to their own portfolio over time. For example, they would not provide a conqueror with the blueprints of 'The Library of Alexandria', just so he could burn it down. I don't think they would lie outright, but they would pull every trick in the book to hinder any such potentially harmful knowledge from getting out (because war/destruction leads to a decline in civilization, which always leads to a loss of knowledge). 'Misleading' is not lying. I could see Oghma (or others) telling a would-be conqueror about an artifact that would help him achieve his goals, and they would not be lying. It might slip their mind to mention the ancient great wyrm that is guarding it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Nov 2014 14:17:12 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2014 : 13:11:36
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There are all kinds of planar libraries where myths and the truths of them can be found, like Boccob's Library, or the Tower Arcane of Gehenna. Perhaps it's buried in the scrolls of Tir na Nog, perhaps engraved on the bones of a long-dead god, perhaps only known the divine corpses of the Astral Plane.
The problem is shifting out the dreck other people have put there to screw with you. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2014 : 13:30:28
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Which make me question when or if a prehistoric time exists in Faerun (at all).
Even the Sarruhk wrote down myths. The major creator races (Aeree, Batrachi, Sarruhk) must have all been literate long before the rise of the faerunian pantheon, except for the Fey and Humans perhaps, who were too flighty to settle on a single script or were only just developing or given a script. This is why their creation myth still fascinates scribes all over Faerun.
Such tomes when scrutinized could very well yield signs of proof of other myths. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2014 : 13:30:41
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| Another thing to note is that language itself changes over time. So, things like us reading the bible nowadays.... we aren't reading it in the original text. I would imagine the same goes for the realms, with the obvious issue that not only due we have language changes over time, we have many more racial languages that things get adapted across. Thus, things like Asgorath/Asgoroth the world shaper could possibly also be known by another name in lore surrounding the death of the sun. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2014 : 13:58:57
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From what I understand from a VERY reliable source (and one who has been officially published), the ONLY 'complete and truthful' library in existance in the multiverse belongs to the Daemons ('loths), ironically. The 'ultimate liars' need to keep track of 'the truth' more then anyone, because they start perverting it the moment it happens. Every other library - no matter how complete - has been affected by 'distortions' to some degree.
So, the way I see it is that some libraries/vaults/whatever have a form of 'chronotonic shielding' (borrowing a term from Star Trek), which keeps information there from getting altered when the timestream is derailed. Depending on the level of magic involved, and the power of the being 'doing' the magic (and the level of what its affecting), different types of shielding would have varying degrees of effectiveness. for example, if one would create a spell that would change everyone's memories in a town (and anything written to conform to those memories), then a very simple magical shield right out of the PHB would work. When Ao decided to alter everyone's memories of the ToT, there was nearly nothing (within Realmspace) that could stop that alteration from happening. Same holds true for Ravenloft's 'dark powers'. Only something higher-up on the 'divine ladder' could overrule a spheric guardian within their own sphere (this would also hold true for godly domains, etc).
I would further assume that the 'loths have a certain amount of built-in protections, both in their home plane(s) and their own minds (because their brains are so used to 'un-truths' they are partially immune to them). Then their metropolis-sized library would have its own layers of protections - probably the finest in the multiverse, with dozens of fail-safes. There might be times when the over-over-Overgods change something, and it effects the entire Omni-verse... but the 'loths would know. Not personally, but buried somewhere in their deepest vaults would be the 'correct' information.
Once again, split to ease digestion... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Nov 2014 14:08:26 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2014 : 14:08:07
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Continued...
As for the 'truth' behind the world and 'primordial times', I still contend that the information about FR pre-Sundering is actually about a proto-world (plane) that was shattered into a million million different spheres (settings), each one an 'echo' of the original. I think 'Abeir-Toril' was some sort of central point of importance before everything was destroyed - some sort of primal laboratory where life was created (including the Creator races).. this fits with what Gary Gygax wrote in the very first issue of The Dragon (that all worlds are reflections of an original one), and also the most basic premise of FR. It also helps explain why we have so many variants of the same exact creatures from world to world (some - like the creators - were there 'from the beginning').
Godwar happens, 'The One (True) World' is destroyed, and is reborn as the multiverse. Races created by the Creatori (Creator races) are to be found on most - if not all - these worlds, in one form or another. I still contend that the Blackmoor civilization (whatever it was called) was the first human one, dating back to that primal world-plane, because we have that name appearing in THREE different D&D settings,(the 'Blackmoorians' are literally 'the ancients'). I also think humans have changed quite a bit since then (this also folds-into the Paizo/PF lore for Golarion, and the Azlanti).
I have more, explaining away certain wordage problems in both myth and D&D lore (at least two different 'layers' of giants and dragon, etc). Think of the first giants as the 'construction workers' in that one world, helping to build the universe (as it was back then), and the dragons were akin to 'construction equipment' (but like everything else back then, bigger, stronger, and smarter). The dwarves were also there - born of the earth - as the 'grunts'. The lowest laborers, as it were (which also shoe-horns nicely with the awesome Time Bandits movie). Those three races - and their later contention - helped shape a lot of the universe's history, echoes of which can be felt on nearly all worlds.
Then the unions came in and screwed it all up.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2014 : 19:24:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Which make me question when or if a prehistoric time exists in Faerun (at all).
Even the Sarruhk wrote down myths. The major creator races (Aeree, Batrachi, Sarruhk) must have all been literate long before the rise of the faerunian pantheon, except for the Fey and Humans perhaps, who were too flighty to settle on a single script or were only just developing or given a script. This is why their creation myth still fascinates scribes all over Faerun.
Such tomes when scrutinized could very well yield signs of proof of other myths.
I believe the Sarruhk Creation Myth involved the World Serpent. It actually did not speak about Shar or Selune at all.
There are several published creation myths floating around out there, and likely hundreds more that have not been mentioned--yet. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2014 : 07:48:56
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Aye. So it could be that the "War of Light and Darkness" myth had been created orally amongst the primitive human tribes that witnessed the swallowing of the First Sun by Dendar the Nightserpent, then spread and told to the human slaves of the Sarruhk empires to combat the existing creation myth prevalent amongst them. With literacy this myth later became a solid foundation from which the current state of the lore about the gods known to scribes on Faerun was formed.
As slyvas pointed out, the current mythology of the faerunian pantheon could also be a mistranslation of an even older myths belonging to one of the more literate creator races (such as Batrachi creation myths) or advanced neighbouring states of (demi)humans (such as Karaturan or Dwarven oral traditions). |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2014 : 14:22:11
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This is why now, in official lore (4e/5e), we have this rather ambiguous 'primordial time' and a 'God War'.
I doubt we will ever see that detailed. I am pretty sure they shouldn't detail it - there would be no-way to perfectly blend it all together, and also make fans happy (being two separate, but related things). Best as we can figure, 'gods' (and I am using that in the broadest sense, to include any sort of immortals and also beings way above the 'deity tier') had a disagreement, and it turned into a war, and there were probably more then just two sides by the end of it (with various groups splitting-up and forming other groups, etc), which ended in that 'first World' (Maztica mythology speaks of a 'True World') getting destroyed.
This is kind of similar to what happened with the elves after the Dark disaster - all sides step back and take a look at what they've done (mostly horrified by it), and decide to 'fix things' as best they could. Official (Sundering/Spellplague) lore says that First World was reformed into 2 worlds (that we know of). As I've said before, I think it was much more then that - I think this was more of a cosmic event, and it is when most of the multiverse (the Crystal Spheres) were created. Poor Ao just got stuck with the 'prison planet' (Abeir - and who's to say their aren't others? Athas, maybe?) in his backyard.
And thats about as loosey-goosey as I can spin it. The 'Days of Thunder' did NOT happen on Toril - that much is CANON. Two new worlds (that we have been told about) took the place of that first, destroyed world. We know there was a 'God War', and thats about all we know. We have myths dating back to that time, some that conflict in details, but thats to be expected. No-one can really know for sure who did what. 'The War of light & Darkness' could just be the name for some local battle, involving just a few of the deities. Who knows what was going on elsewhere in the universe? Several other settings have their own myths as well - they could all be true, from a local viewpoint (because gods CAN be in more then one place at once).
And this more 'universal' approach I am taking to the lore has been stemming from my fandom of not just FR, but of the D&D multiverse as a whole. Considering that FR is now the CORE setting, anything core now becomes 'the rule' for FR, and vice-versa, so I would think that we should all start looking at it that way. FR lore now needs to encompass the 'generic set of rules' for the D&D universe. What happens in The Realms no longer 'stays in the Realms'.
But I think Ed always knew that...his lore - and his Realms - have been bleeding into everything else since the beginning. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Nov 2014 13:48:52 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2014 : 05:02:14
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When it comes to the War of Light and Darkness, if we want to learn the origins of that myth, we have to look from where it originates. Based on all the evidence that we have, it is apparent that Shar and Selune were both Netherese deities prior to the collapse of Netheril. That in turn would make the War of Light and Darkness a Netherese creation myth.
Where that came from would depend on how old it is and where Shar and Selune originated. It seems pretty apparent to me that the Netherese adopted at least one deity from another pantheon--Jergal. Jergal is clearly not a human deity.
I speculate that Shar and Selune used to be two faces of the same deity. Over time, however, there was a schism within the faith and this began to divide the two faces of the goddess--centuries later leading to the myth of the War of Light and Darkness and the two halves of the goddess divided.
The major problem I always run into is the Weave. It is such an essential part of Toril, and Mystryl does not show up until Netheril. In the long history of Toril, that is a blink of an eye. There is no reason to believe that the Weave is a "new" creation, but it is so fundamentally tied to Mystryl/Mystra...
...I speculate that some Weave-like web has always existed on Toril, operated early on by some primordial deity. It likely did not take on the characteristics that we are more familiar with until the formation of the Ba'etith. Their study of various magical traditions, and the subsequent creation of the Golden Skins of the World Serpent (the Nether Scrolls) likely heralded the beginning of modern Weave magic.
I do not believe the goals or motivations of the Terraseer were ever revealed, but he has been mucking around for a long time. We also know he was around at several key moments during Netheril's founding...and it may even be possible that he was playing a hand in events long before that...
It is very helpful if we assume that the Weave was originally created and controlled by the World Serpent, a primordial being that was worshiped as a deity by the Sarrukh. The World Serpent eventually began to break up into various aspects.
Fast forward to the Naga after the fall of the Sarrukh. Naga are known for their love of the Arcane Art, and they venerate a fragment of the World Serpent, the Naga Queen named Shekinester. However, the Naga Queen devoured two other aspects of the World Serpent: Ssharstrune and Jazirian. This allowed the Naga Queen to develop five guises in which she is worshiped by the Naga: the Acquirer, the Empowerer, the Seeker, the Weaver, and the Preserver. However, fearing that she could fragment herself into five separate goddesses she ordered her son named Parrafaire (which she gave birth too by way of being impregnated by Jazirian before devouring him), to hide away Ssharstrune's remains after she expelled them.
Ssharstrune was the Naga deity of curiosity, destruction, and possessiveness. Shekinester was the Naga deity that held the knowledge and wisdom once held by the World Serpent, as well as the preserver of the eternal flame--prior to devouring Ssharstrune and Jazirian, of course.
Okay, fast forward again. Now we have a group of tribal humans stumbling upon ancient Naga ruins, and a long abandoned temple to Ssharstrune. The shaman of this tribe receive visions once inside, and attempt to uncover the lost secrets. Ignorance and mistranslation lead to them developing the belief that the temple was once dedicated to a two-faced goddess. They believe this goddess was Sharselune--a misinterpretation of the name Ssharstrune.
They worship this deity as a deity of both light and darkness, a being of the night, the moon, the stars, magic, mystery, secrets, creation, destruction, wisdom, knowledge, and prophecy. One face of the goddess represents the moon, the stars, and creation. The other face of the goddess represents destruction, the night, and secrets. Together they are a deity of magic, mystery, wisdom, knowledge, and prophecy. Somewhere along the way "Sharselune" causes Shekinester the Naga Queen to divide into the five aspects as feared, and claims dominion over the Weave.
Okay, fast forward a bit. The deity becomes a bit more defined by the proto-Netherese. Certain parts of the cult begin to favor one face of Sharselune more than others, and we begin to see the divisions that would lead Sharselune to become Shar and Selune.
Fast forward some more. The cult has a schism between the two-faced goddess. War breaks out between the two factions. A third faction emerges out of this war, giving rise to the proto-Mystryl cult. Proto-Mystryl gets the Weave, Magic, Spells, etc.
Fast forward even more in time... things are somewhat stable, Shar and Selune are now separate deities, as is Mystryl. The Netherese Pantheon as we know it is forming. The War of Light and Darkness is being written based on oral traditions passed down over many generations.
This is the best way to line things up to have everything make sense. So the World Serpent is an ancient deity, and likely the original creator of the proto-Weave that spans all of Toril. The Ba'etith form, and create a formal understanding of the Weave. They create the Golden Skins of the World Serpent (the Nether Scrolls). The Golden Skins become the basis of all magical art, and the knowledge gets spread all over the place by the Ba'etith and the Terraseer. The World Serpent splits, the Weave falls to Shekinester, the Naga Queen. It remains with her until a proto-Netherese tribe discovers an ancient temple to Ssharstrune, one of the fragments of the World Serpent devoured by Shekinester. Ssharstrune communes with the humans, they misinterpret the message. They worship it as Sharselune. Over time Sharselune grows in power in the region among the proto-Netherese tribes. It eventually gets vengeance on the Naga Queen, causing her to divide into five lesser deities. It gains the Weave as the prize. However, it also begins to divide as the cult fragments. It fragments into Shar and Selune, and also a third deity named Mystryl. Oral traditions of the event are passed down over time, and real events become legends, legends become myths, until at last we have only a poetic understanding of what actually happened in the War of Light and Darkness.
Fast forward. Netheril falls. Netherese refugees spread out, taking their deities and their creation myth with them. Shar, Selune, and Mystra become major players in the proto-Faerunian Pantheon. The War of Light and Darkness is popular as a creation myth and is favored over others, and so most other cults adopt it as they enter the Faerunian Pantheon. Hence why it is held in such high regard today.
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2014 : 07:33:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick... It seems pretty apparent to me that the Netherese adopted at least one deity from another pantheon--Jergal. Jergal is clearly not a human deity.
Not a human deity? Why not? Humans are still one of the named Creator Races. And of them, what race was closer to death than humans? |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2014 : 11:56:34
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick... It seems pretty apparent to me that the Netherese adopted at least one deity from another pantheon--Jergal. Jergal is clearly not a human deity.
Not a human deity? Why not? Humans are still one of the named Creator Races. And of them, what race was closer to death than humans?
It is assumed that Jergal is not a human deity because he is depicted as an alien or insectoid type species.
From Powers and Pantheons:
"Jergal appears as a wizened, insubstantial mummy of some ancient, alien race. His skin is gray and tightly drawn across his frame. His bulbous, yellow, lifeless eyes and insectoid mandibles resemble a cross between a humanoid and a preying mantis. His ears and nose are barely distinguishable from his elongated skull. Most of his body is covered with an utterly lightless cloak that seems to absorb the very atmosphere that envelops it. His white gloves cover elongated, claw-like hands and forearms."
Whatever Jergal is, he is clearly not human. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2014 : 12:10:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Not a human deity? Why not?
It is assumed
By whom? 
quote:
that Jergal is not a human deity because he is depicted as an alien or insectoid type species.
So? There's an entire pantheon of half-beast deities...
Someone got a god-of-dead as a jackal, some perhaps as a vulture, and some as a beetle-man, why not? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2014 : 16:38:41
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
By whom?
By many that have read hints about this dropped by Ed Greenwood and worked a bit by Eric Boyd and the James brothers.
Lucky me i remember a small snippet of post by which i can get the exact thread i'm looking for (searching for "Jergal" will suck your life out of you).
Here: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14022&SearchTerms=to+his+mortal+self
That thread should have everything you need to understand why many believe Jergal is/was not human, it has references too, but for the Ed post i'll defer to The Sage and his masterful insight on all things Ask-Ed-related (sadly i don't have that snippet in my own copied notes, probably because of the irritating and ever-present NDA label that scared me away after reading it). |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2014 : 16:48:42
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The original suggestion that Jergal was an alien creature comes from an interior picture in "Prince of Lies".
My personal thought is that Jergal makes a lot of sense as an ascended spellweaver, particularly given the Dragon article.
I've done a lot of writing about this lately. More to come next year (in an informal capacity).
--Eric
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
By whom?
By many that have read hints about this dropped by Ed Greenwood and worked a bit by Eric Boyd and the James brothers.
Lucky me i remember a small snippet of post by which i can get the exact thread i'm looking for (searching for "Jergal" will suck your life out of you).
Here: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14022&SearchTerms=to+his+mortal+self
That thread should have everything you need to understand why many believe Jergal is/was not human, it has references too, but for the Ed post i'll defer to The Sage and his masterful insight on all things Ask-Ed-related (sadly i don't have that snippet in my own copied notes, probably because of the irritating and ever-present NDA label that scared me away after reading it).
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2014 : 23:03:25
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An interesting feedback loop of sorts might exist - the gods may sustain selected myths and legends, but they are themselves shaped and sustained by the belief of their faithful. Most feedback cycles eventually decay into a static equilibrium, for deities this might be something like a partial lobotomy which locks them into a small and self-consistent mindset. An infusion of creative outside-the-box beliefs, a little chaos and disruption, must be injected into the loop intermittently. Otherwise deities themselves fade into myth and rigidly defined parameters about what they can do, when and why they they do it, how they are *expected* to behave. If this premise holds any truth, deities must constantly balance the need to lure faithful with divine continuity against the need to change and grow and adapt to conditions within and without their spheres of power.
Shar might be such a self-decayed deity. Perhaps also Moander. Divine manifestations formed more by what has been forgotten about them than by whats left to remember. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Examining "Myths" in Toril
