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Roseweave
Learned Scribe

Ireland
212 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2014 :  21:34:01  Show Profile  Visit Roseweave's Homepage Send Roseweave a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Tell me about Fomorians. I'm thinking of doing a villain in one of my short stories based on this guy -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elatha

How'd you think it'd fit in?

xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2014 :  22:21:29  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From a quick glance, it doesn't appear that D&D's fomorians are compatible with that mythology. If it were me, I would opt for sun giants (3.5e MM2) to tie in with the "prince of darkness" who was (rumored to be) a sun god.

In the 1300s Realms, a sun giant civilization would probably fit best on one of the hitherto-undescribed landmasses, which would be ideal for a short story since nothing has been written about it yet.

Just my two cents, though.
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe

Ireland
212 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2014 :  22:45:39  Show Profile  Visit Roseweave's Homepage Send Roseweave a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What other famous Fomorians are there?
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe

Ireland
212 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2014 :  23:02:14  Show Profile  Visit Roseweave's Homepage Send Roseweave a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Fomorians in D&D seem to be based off descriptions of Balor primarily. Also the Fomorians were originally a beautiful race, so it still fits?

Edited by - Roseweave on 09 Nov 2014 23:03:35
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36050 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2014 :  01:28:05  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A lot of stuff that D&D has lifted from mythology has been a fairly straight translation... But there is some stuff that is so different that the connection to the source mythology is not at all apparent -- like the gorgon.

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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe

USA
403 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2014 :  07:10:23  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Roseweave

Fomorians in D&D seem to be based off descriptions of Balor primarily. Also the Fomorians were originally a beautiful race, so it still fits?


If you are thinking of Fomorians as in the Irish mythology then I would not get hung up on appearances.
  • The Fomorians preceded all other peoples to Ireland.
  • The Fomorians were associated with natural destruction and chaos.
  • The Fomorians may have been allegories to pagan gods.
  • The Fomorians are a semi-divine race.
  • The etymology of "Fomorian" could mean "from sea," "from under sea," "from across the sea," "from under land," and "from nightmares."

That list of attributes can point in a few directions with one possibility immediately jumping out at me. The Fomorian analog is a Creator Race - the Batrachi and their servitors.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Batrachi

Occupied land; close association with the sea, under the sea, and underground; capable of powerful magics; a major player during the Days of Thunder; dallied with the Dawn Titans and other primordials; and it ties in with the Fomorian description of wildly varying appearances. I think that is one direction you could go with the Fomorian heroes/gods being played by Dawn Titans/Primordials that weren't wiped from existence yet.

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2014 :  10:44:10  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A fomorian princess was an important part of the novel Rose of Sarifal. It portrayed them in a rather different light than the usual lore.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2014 :  13:28:27  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've long theorized at least two tiers of most 'ancient races', and the giants (along with dragons) are the main reason why I began this theory. We have two tiers of titans, two of Cyclops, and two of Fomorians, all in D&D canon.

There is a 'Planer' version, and a 'Prime' version, and I would hazard to guess the Planer ones were the originals, and the rest are just their 'lesser children' that spread out to other worlds (loosing their connection to their home, and thus 'dwindling' in stature). The 4e Fomorians are nothing like their 1e/2e counterparts (except, perhaps, in appearance - still butt-ugly). The Planer versions of nearly everything are 'better' - usually larger, and always smarter and more powerful. In fact, intelligence tends to be in the genius range for most of these (it is for the Planer Giants and Celestial Dragons).

IMG, I use the Cerilia (Birthright) term 'Fhoimorien' to differentiate the 'greater' (Planer) variety from the lesser (mortal) versions. Thus, 4e Fomorians are actually Fhoimoriens, recently returned from the Feywild. If you are doing a villain, I would definitely suggest one of these - the 1e/2e variety were just canon-fodder.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 10 Nov 2014 13:31:24
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe

789 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2014 :  20:55:14  Show Profile Send silverwolfer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The rose of sairel had them in detail. The book truly sucked though
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7623 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2014 :  22:48:53  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
D&D fomorians are just little giants, though, no? Maybe around 9-10 feet tall, smaller than hill giants, not exceptionally huge and mighty and intelligent when compared to other giants. They are indeed powerful figures when compared to human and demihuman species.

[/Ayrik]
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BenN
Senior Scribe

Japan
382 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2014 :  23:45:57  Show Profile Send BenN a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer

The rose of sairel had them in detail. The book truly sucked though


It sure did. In 4e lore, Formorians are one of the chief protaganists in the Moonshaes, having crossed over from the Feywild.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11183 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2014 :  01:08:07  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

D&D fomorians are just little giants, though, no? Maybe around 9-10 feet tall, smaller than hill giants, not exceptionally huge and mighty and intelligent when compared to other giants. They are indeed powerful figures when compared to human and demihuman species.



4e made them more of a role within the feywild, where they and Cyclops are more prevalent in the feydark version of the underdark.


As to there being a good looking past history of fomorians, this is from Monster Mythology:

Grolantor is usually represented (by other giantish races) as
evil second and stupid first, although he possesses a certain cunning.
Karontor, however, is seen as evil first and anything else
second. In fomorian & verbeeg myths, he has a constant form,
but other non-evil giants often have myths in which he is a fair
and radiant god who grows jealous of Stronmaus, and his bitter
envy begins to twist his form into the hideous shape he now possesses.
This twisting is often associated with a descent into an
Underworld where Karontor learns dark magical secrets from a
race of ancient subterranean hags. He uses this magic to twist
and warp some of the fairest of the giants on his return to the
surface world, and they become the ancestors of the fomorians
(and the verbeeg to a lesser extent, although his magic twists
their nature only).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2014 :  14:59:28  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I picture the Feywild (plane) as an immense crater - larger then most worlds in surface area. The outer ring of mountains rises slowly from foothills to insanely huge mountains that go all the way up and outside the atmosphere, and this band is a 1000+ miles wide. The Fey live in the center of the bowl (for the most part), a place of ancient primordial forests and great seas.

Now, the Giants used to control the whole thing; it is what was left of their 'homeland' when the First world was shattered. It must have had another name back then as well (Jotunheim?) After the Black Diamond affair, but before the Dawn Age, the Fey migrated to the Feywild. I think when they did this they also changed its nature somehow (In my homebrew musings I have it where the Faery Queen sacrificed herself to bind the spirit of the Fey with the land of the Feywild). Thus, her daughter Titania becomes the first Fey Queen within the Feywild, and names her new land 'Faerie' (I also have it where the entirety of The Feywild is NOT Faerie - just the central portions, and even then, its a very unofficial border).

So the Planer Giants were just sitting there, minding their own business when the Fey invaded. At first, there was plenty of room and not many Fey (comparatively), so they were probably treated as refugees and accommodations were made. This didn't sit well with all giants (like the Frost and Fire), but the Titans, Cloud, and Storm giants accepted them and so it was. When the children of the Fey - the 'el' (proto-Elves) I've mentioned before - began to spread-out to other lands, they kept pushing the giants further and further into the outer ring - 'Giant country', which caused a lot of animosity.

Eventually the Giants - or at least certain groups of them - decided to take action, and the war between the Fey and giants was begun. The Fey would have lost (because the giant kingdoms were still strong in those days), but their Mages managed to summon dragons from elsewhere and make pacts with them (this is probably when Nathair Sgithach* joined their pantheon). With the help of the dragons they defeated the giants, driving the most powerful into the mountains, while the weaker ones were forced to flee through the many gates (to other worlds) that the Feywild is riddled with. To this day the Jotunbrūd hate the fey and their children, the Fomorians most of all, who lost their mighty kingdoms and were reduced to a grotesque imitation of themselves (all giants were, but the Fomorians remain the most bitter - some say the fey took especial delight in 'eradicating the ugly brutes').

And BTW, that first great empire of the Giants was called Ostoria - the Ostoria of the Forgotten Realms is just one of many such 'poor imitations' of their past glories. Many myths from most worlds can be traced back to these early times, just before and after the Godwar. As for the dragons and the elves (Fey), and why the dragon hated giants in the first place - thats fuel for another thread.

Use what you want, if anything - its almost entirely hombrew. I just try to explain multiple anomalies with my lore (all the ancient interaction between the elves, giants, Dragons, and dwarves, along with where and when they came from, and why 'lesser versions' are on so many worlds, not to mention how so many things managed to be created on Toril, and yet can be found everywhere else).



*I went looking for the name of that faery dragon and found that someone has edited the heck out of the D&D deities list on Wikipedia, and made it all 4e-compatible. Oh well, so much for it being useful.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 11 Nov 2014 15:15:51
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11183 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2014 :  15:32:07  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Along those same lines, the feywild could just be a joining of Niflheim (in the form of the cold tundra lands, not the land of the dead... but perhaps has linkages to the negative plane), Jotunheim, Vanaheim, Alfheim, Svartalfheim, Nidavellir, and finally Muspelheim (which like Niflheim only draws upon the fiery aspects of the land with linkages to the elemental chaos). This would leave Asgard as its separate plane and Midgard to be split amongst the various primes. Not sure that I like this idea, but the various aspects of the feywild would fit this general idea (i.e. the Seelie of Alfheim, the Archfey of Vanaheim, the Unseelie of Svartalfheim, the dwarves and gnomes of Nidavellir along with other beings such as fomorians, duergar, spriggans, etc.., the frost sprites and mist beings of Niflheim, the giants of Jotunheim and Muspelheim). Personally, I'd like it more if the feywild was some kind of planar nexus between these different worlds, allowing one to walk from Muspelheim to Jotunheim, with the linkages possibly moving, and with portions of these planes coming and going over time (such as Evermeet being transferred to Toril, etc..).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
931 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2014 :  09:46:23  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, as it was written above by sleyvas, you can have Karontor, as a twisted, corrupted Elatha. He could sometimes have the ability to assume his original, beautiful form, or create an aspect in it's image, in order to seduce and corrupt other being into serving him. 4e mentiod Bres as king of Feydark fomorians, but you can have him as son, and more 'earthly' representant of Elatha/Karontor.

In general, I in my campaign, I have Fomorians tied into the creation, and subtly manipulating goblinoids and orcs. Gruumsh, in my campaign actualy started out as half archfey, half fomorian desesdant of Balore. That's why, after Corellon gouged his eye out, he mutated into form resembling his infamous ancestor.
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7623 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2014 :  22:36:37  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Interesting that cyclopes would be grouped into giant lore. 2E sources portrayed giants (jotun) as the racial remnants of ancient, once-powerful, proud and glorious giant civilizations. Influences of Norse and Germanic folklore are very evident. Cyclopes are, of course, derived from Classical Greek mythology - grouped with all the other D&D giants simply because of their (rather arbitrary) large physical stature.

[/Ayrik]
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
931 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2014 :  23:29:45  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, the Titans of Greek mythology, were also grouped with Jotun in D&D. Which has sense, as the Norse Jotun, have actualy more in common with Norse Jotun, than the real giants of greek mythology - Gigantes. The Elder Cyclops, were basicaly the unglier siblings of Titans, along with the even more monstrous Hekatonkheires. The younger, Poseidon fathered cyclopes, on which the D&D variant is more based, could be actualy described as god-blooded humans, who are giant in statue. Although it may be just almost all Indo-European religions and myths contain Giant, elder gods, like Titans, Jotun, Fomorians, and the Indian Daityas. The same can be said about cyclopes, who a found all around the globe, like the Japanese Datara, who was a blacksmith like the Greek (elder)cyclops, Onihitokuchi, and Ame no Hitotsu no Kami.

Edited by - Baltas on 12 Nov 2014 23:34:20
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