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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Oct 2014 : 03:38:55
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Yeah, but I'm looking at the "breeding true" aspect of elves. A sun elf and a moon elf that have kids are going to have sun elf and moon elf kids -- there is no mixing, at all. It's one or the other.
So if elves were created to breed true, at some point some variation was entered into the mix -- otherwise, we'd only have on flavor of elf.
That's what I wonder about: the source of that variation.
And, of course, thinking on that makes me wonder if the original breed, those that arose from Corellon's blood, is still around. Maybe they're one of the known flavors; maybe they're not.
Either way, we do have a canon way for elves to change their race. And since we know it exists and has been done, it makes sense, to me, to use that to explain some of the various races. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2014 : 11:26:32
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I think the sources indicate that wood elves (distinct from wild elves) are the result of crossbreeding between various elven subraces.
One could argue that this was the intent of the Seldarine, as it happened in the wake of the Crown Wars. |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2014 : 16:23:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So if elves were created to breed true, at some point some variation was entered into the mix -- otherwise, we'd only have on flavor of elf.
Why only one? Maybe they were created as a "matching set".
Of course, the same questions apply equally to Gold and Silver elves, Snow elves, Avariel, etc. as well as Mithral.
Also, "in normal circumstances and within scope of one generation breed true" is much less than "always remain constant".
quote:
That's what I wonder about: the source of that variation.
Right. "We also crave the need to speculate"(c) 
Let's start from limits: where and how strong is the border of "Does Not Mix"? We know that even when there's no question as to the inherited basic type ("subrace"), occasionally "cosmetic differences" get inherited from another, or even from humans.
Question: what happens if a set of such minor traits would pervade a whole population and become dominant? Still no effect on anything else?
Now, to the known facts of the elven nature.
The elves are supposed to become harmonized with whatever environment they are born into or live in. But a stick usually have more than one end. According to CBoE, elves have to be attuned to the world they live in, or they don't have all their magical properties in working order (as one could expect, this extends to High Magic).
Maybe this phenotipe stability is part of the same properties as elven resistances? If those can be weakened by leaving one's world for long enough (<CBoE), then a ildly different environment could prevent complete attunement and could thereby prevent stabilizing mechanisms from working properly. Which would leave elves as malleable/adaptable as any other critter, until changes (both in "mundane" physiology and on magical side - if those are two different things at all) bring their qualities into balance with these new conditions.
Elves also are especially responsive to some magic fields - being in the "shadow" of a Netherese mythallar is enough to temporarily mess up elven resistances (<Arcane Age sources), and a raising mythal may have psychodelic side-effects (<"Elminster in Myth Drannor").
Maybe, living in a place with different "magical background" for several generations is enough to bend their nature in ways that willo reflect the new conditions? E.g. elemental composition: could living close to great amount of granite or ice gradually transform them, first as magical creatures and then in flesh? There are known "ice adapted" variations both of light elves and drow, though not on Toril.
Of course, these two mechanisms are not mutually exlusive.
quote:
Either way, we do have a canon way for elves to change their race. And since we know it exists and has been done, it makes sense, to me, to use that to explain some of the various races.
"Akh'Faen'Tel'Quess"? Not really. Valid destinations seem to be existing subraces - "including drow, avariel, or aquatic elf (but not a lythari)". To generate gold, you need gold. 
And even if it does allow arbitrary changes, there's still no reason to do so.
(1) That got very interesting implications in itself.
So, if it matters that elven subrace X is present in the Weave, what are limits of this method on quantity/range? Does this method work only in the Weave of Realmspace, or on any world?..
Yes, practical usefulness of HM as such is very low... but Elf Disguise (Vhaerunite wizards' "golhydarthiir") is said explicitly to work exclusively within limits of phenotypes of existing elven subraces - and it's Level 1 (one) spell. Time to start whistling.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2014 : 16:31:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Star elves have some hair colour or whatnot which is distinctive of another elven group - cool, but I dont see why its a big deal.
Well no, they have automatic ghost touch on weapons and armors in starlight, different stats adjustments (+2 CHA, -2 CON) and a different favored class (bard) (all in 3E terms as there aren't other sources on them). It's not just the fact they have 2/3 hair colors that moon elves don't have or skin tones that gold elves don't have, they have distinctively different features as well. Downplaying such differences means that moon, sun, green and copper elves should be the same too since they too differ for a couple of stats adjustments and some skin tone and hair color. It may seem to be just arguing technicalities but it's this technicalities that result in different elven races as opposed to different human ethnicities.
EDIT: also yeah, Sildeyuir may have totally messed up the Star Elves genetics/harmony with the Weave/whatnot, but they were identified as Star Elves in -6950 DR, six thousands years before Sildeyuir. |
Edited by - Demzer on 18 Oct 2014 16:37:34 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2014 : 00:57:47
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
I think the sources indicate that wood elves (distinct from wild elves) are the result of crossbreeding between various elven subraces.
One could argue that this was the intent of the Seldarine, as it happened in the wake of the Crown Wars.
Eric, by chance can you recall the source of this? I think I recall reading something similar. If so, that would indicate that long ago elves didn't breed true and now they do.
I half wonder, was there a high magic ritual cast as a means to increase the population of elves? For instance, elves create half-elves, who have a shorter lifespan and can produce children quicker. Then they breed the half-elves back to gain pure elven stock again with no longer any trace of humanity to them?? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2014 : 10:49:27
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Eric, by chance can you recall the source of this?
I'm not Eric but Races of Faerun, wood elves chapter, history section is were i found it. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2014 : 11:06:58
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Demzer is correct. History section of Races of Faerun.
I've been doing some more writing about this lately for an unofficial project. My take is that in the wake of the Crown Wars, some elves retreated into their cultures. (Gold and moon elven nobility moved to Arcorar, Evereska, Evermeet, etc.; green elves reverted to barbarism). Other elves, with the blessings of the Seldarine returned to nature, but remained civilized, blending the best of the other elven cultures. With the blessings of the Seldarine, these "back to the land" elves slowly became the wood elves over the next 4,000 to 5,000 years. The wood elves of the High Forest were the most famous such group to emerge, but the Wealdath and other forests saw them come into being as well.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
I think the sources indicate that wood elves (distinct from wild elves) are the result of crossbreeding between various elven subraces.
One could argue that this was the intent of the Seldarine, as it happened in the wake of the Crown Wars.
Eric, by chance can you recall the source of this? I think I recall reading something similar. If so, that would indicate that long ago elves didn't breed true and now they do.
I half wonder, was there a high magic ritual cast as a means to increase the population of elves? For instance, elves create half-elves, who have a shorter lifespan and can produce children quicker. Then they breed the half-elves back to gain pure elven stock again with no longer any trace of humanity to them??
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2015 : 00:23:20
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Sorry for my thread necromancy, but I noticed some stuff.
The Faerie Elves, a subtype of Grey Elves in core D&D and Greyhawk, seem to remind me the most of Star Elves, as Violet eyes were a Faerie Elf Trait.
The correspondene of Grey and High Elves to Sun and Moon Elves in Faerun, is a strange bit, as Sun Elves correspond more to Grey Elves, yet are called High Elves, and Moon Elves correspond more to High Elves, but are often called Grey Elves as an insult. This may be because at their origins, among the ancestors of Moon Elves(High Elves?) and Sun Elves(Grey Elves?) there was heavy crossbreeding with each other.
Although again, calling Gold Elves High Elves, and Moon Elves Grey Elves, harkens more closely to characterisation within Tolkien's books, as traits of High Elves and Grey elves were mixed up in D&D.
Also, I agree with eeorey's observation Star Elves also resemble Llewyr Elves. Both Llewyr and Star Elves seem more Faerie like, and exhibit features of both Moon and Sun Elves.
A fan work called A Treatise on Espruar
http://freepdfhosting.com/5f6a747504.pdf
Proposes something interesting, and I'm not sure if it came up with it, or took from some canon source :
quote:
faerie - "magical" - 1. magical, touched
by magic 2. a term used to describe a
gold elf with violet eyes and silver hair,
usually accompanied by a particularly
pale complexion. This is thought to be a
mark of favor and exceptional
intelligence by many elven cultures,
being the most rare of gold elven
coloring. Perhaps it marks
Rua'Tel'Quessir(Star/Mithral Elf) ancestry.
So I'm curious if it made up the connection of Faerie Elves among Sun Elves to Star Elves...
Still, this makes me wonder of maybe Star Elves aren't maybe a trowback to very ancient, Faerie-like elves. Star Elves do in fact resemble the idea of Eladrin from 4E the most among pre-existing elves in Faerun. Not to mention, Sildeyuir was relocated to Feywild... |
Edited by - Baltas on 25 Oct 2015 02:25:55 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2015 : 02:55:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
The novel is just weird and doesn't mix well with all the rest of the lore sources, i've taken a break reading it because i couldn't find much Star Elven lore and i can't shake off the sci-fi feeling of that weird golem AI (plus why aboleths when the nilshai were right there?).
If common sense mattered to those who run things now... 
quote:
Putting all the pieces together i can pull off something believable except for the last bit of elusive knowledge: Star Elven religion.
Now, while Unapproachable East says clearly that the Star Elves worship the Seldarine and Corellon in particular i couldn't find any reference to any elven god in the other sources
- If they still worship the Seldarine, why aren't the frigging tree huggers moving their cute butts to help their beleaguered brethrens? Don't the Seldarine care for an almost extinct branch of the family (that isn't involved in any particular fratricide past catastrophe)?
You pinpointed the elephant in the room, whom Elves are trying (sometimes violently) to bury under the carpet, and even then only after colliding with it. 
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Uhm well the Star Elves were identified as Star Elves already in -6950 and they were living inside the sun and moon elves community of wider Faerun (since it's said that they left the other elven nations behind). It's only in -699 DR that they segregated themselves into Sildeyuir.
I think there is something amiss either in the Yuirwood or with the Star Elves themselves
Blame the elephant.
Seldarine-worshipping elves could not be mixed with others, obviously. At least after some point, when it mattered more and more.
Knowing the elves (considering the history of Eaerlann and Ravens Bluff), there are only two obvious options, IMO:
A) Star Elves venerated another pantheon.
They didn't quite get along with the rest and chose to get lost on their own, before they'll end up like Dark Elves or worse. To Yuirwood. And understandably didn't have much contact with the outside ever after. When later Unther and then Nar leaned on them, they had no allies, so eventually they could only run again, and the only place that would have them was a demiplane of their own.
Later the other elves destroyed, defaced and blocked whatever reminders of that pantheon were left behind.
B) Star Elves venerate the Seldarine. Other (Green?) elves venerated the pantheon now only known as "Yuir".
After a brief struggle with locals those stones were defaced or warded.
Then the ancestors of Star Elves settled there to make sure that the other pantheon (whether it was initially venerated by the elves or "borrowed" from others) won't return to poach elves from the Seldarine again. The rest of differences are mainly due to living away from the rest and having curious magical phenomena to study. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 27 Oct 2015 03:11:20 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2015 : 11:00:04
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Seldarine-worshipping elves could not be mixed with others, obviously. At least after some point, when it mattered more and more.
Knowing the elves (considering the history of Eaerlann and Ravens Bluff), there are only two obvious options, IMO:
A) Star Elves venerated another pantheon.
They didn't quite get along with the rest and chose to get lost on their own, before they'll end up like Dark Elves or worse. To Yuirwood. And understandably didn't have much contact with the outside ever after. When later Unther and then Nar leaned on them, they had no allies, so eventually they could only run again, and the only place that would have them was a demiplane of their own.
Later the other elves destroyed, defaced and blocked whatever reminders of that pantheon were left behind.
B) Star Elves venerate the Seldarine. Other (Green?) elves venerated the pantheon now only known as "Yuir".
After a brief struggle with locals those stones were defaced or warded.
Then the ancestors of Star Elves settled there to make sure that the other pantheon (whether it was initially venerated by the elves or "borrowed" from others) won't return to poach elves from the Seldarine again. The rest of differences are mainly due to living away from the rest and having curious magical phenomena to study.
Well, if my assumption that connects Star Elves to Faerie Elves of other worlds is correct, I think it's possible the Star Elves worshipped the Faerie Pantheon/Seelie Court. The Seelie court was even renamed in 4E as the Court of the Stars. |
Edited by - Baltas on 27 Oct 2015 11:13:13 |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2015 : 15:20:37
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| I don't remember the date it happened but there was a crew of a spell jamming elf ship that crashed near Evermeet and settled there. Maybe some of them resettled later. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2015 : 16:10:22
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While it is correct that some spelljamming elves have wound up in Evermeet, and the Elven Imperial Navy does have a presence in Realmspace, I'm not aware of anything that suggests that star elves are not native to Toril.
Keep in mind that star elves were introduced in 3E -- Spelljammer was a 2E that was swept under the carpet after the end of 2E.
My personal supposition is that the star elves originated in Faerie, but made it to the Realms via a separate (possibly earlier) exodus than the one that brought the moon and sun elves. I would imagine that they settled in the Yuirwood area and that either some arrangement had been made with the Yuir deities, or they felt they owed the Yuir deities and switched to their veneration. Perhaps the star elves were trapped in Faerie and one of more of the Yuir deities became aware of their plight and brought them to the Realms...
Going with a multiple exodus approach could explain why there's such a variety of elves in the D&D multiverse. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 29 Oct 2015 16:15:10 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2015 : 16:17:26
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Very interesting idea Wooly, I thought of something along those lines, but your version sounds better...
Yeah, as I mentioned, the Star Elves do seem connected to the Faerie more strongly |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2015 : 20:36:58
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Thankfully Mr. George Krashos had a lot to say on the Star Elves of the Yuirwood, check out his thread's last pages for his insight.
It certainly helped me understand and shape things up better and cleared some of the mud i was asking about in this thread. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2015 : 21:44:29
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Indeed, as allways, George provided lots of needed information! It seems that indeed Star Elves have a much stronger tie with Faerie and Feywild.
I myself used a custom version of the Eladrin race to represent the Star Elves while playing 5E, instead just giving them an +1 to Charisma, instead of Inteligence.
http://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/DMG_286.pdf |
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Star Elves
