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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Oct 2014 : 01:53:08
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| it used to be explicitly stated back in 1st edition that elves and orcs could NOT breed. However, that being said, we now have folks saying Gruumsh and Corellon are brothers, so WTF... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2014 : 20:25:43
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Mighty Gruumsh (The Eternally Sleepless Warrior) would never befriend Corellon nor any other Seldarine.
First off, there is the little issue of eye-for-an-eye which Gruumsh (The Iron-Willed Tyrant Above All) would never forget, never forgive, never relent.
Second, Gruumsh (With His Great Spear, Yada-Yada-Yada) is a strong, hard, proud, indomitable, angry sort of god who tolerates no weakness in other races, not even in his own followers. Elves are about as unmanly as they get in the eyes of an orc, and elf-flesh is almost as tasty as roasted halfling. There aint never gonna be no friendship here. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Xal Valzar
Learned Scribe
Argentina
214 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2014 : 21:54:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Mighty Gruumsh (The Eternally Sleepless Warrior) would never befriend Corellon nor any other Seldarine.
First off, there is the little issue of eye-for-an-eye which Gruumsh (The Iron-Willed Tyrant Above All) would never forget, never forgive, never relent.
Second, Gruumsh (With His Great Spear, Yada-Yada-Yada) is a strong, hard, proud, indomitable, angry sort of god who tolerates no weakness in other races, not even in his own followers. Elves are about as unmanly as they get in the eyes of an orc, and elf-flesh is almost as tasty as roasted halfling. There aint never gonna be no friendship here.
i thought that in the realms the gods dont play such an active and direct role in people other then granting them powers.
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Knowledge is Power |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2014 : 23:48:15
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
it used to be explicitly stated back in 1st edition that elves and orcs could NOT breed. However, that being said, we now have folks saying Gruumsh and Corellon are brothers, so WTF...
Pretty sure that is entirely non-canon fanlore, and that nothing like that has even been suggested, in canon. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2014 : 23:50:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Xal Valzar
i thought that in the realms the gods dont play such an active and direct role in people other then granting them powers.
Well, yeah they usualy not control they followers so much, but Gruums was originaly LE before 3rd edition, and his title - He Who Watches, along with some of the lore about Gruumsh, indicates he's a controling and opressive deity. For example, orcs who are not his clerics, are forbidden to speak his name.
Of course Ayrik also seems to be half-joking here, too.
Also, I'm not sure how this will factor in, but Eldath has under her wing a peacefull off-shoot of Orcs, called Ondonti. Eldath has something off a following, or at least recognition among Elves. Ondonti, are what is interesting, counted as fey. Which may indicate that Orcs, and possibly all goblinoids, were originaly corrupted Fey.(Which is also why I hated the fact Mielikki basicaly stated in one of the novels, that it's okay to kill all goblinoids and orcs, which is terribly out of character, and ignores her age long friendship with Eldath. Although, thankfully, Ed had an explanation, that the sundering affected the behavior of gods, making it less jaring.). |
Edited by - Baltas on 05 Oct 2014 00:02:26 |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2014 : 00:24:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
quote:
Originally posted by Xal Valzar
i thought that in the realms the gods dont play such an active and direct role in people other then granting them powers.
Well, yeah they usualy not control they followers so much, but Gruums was originaly LE before 3rd edition, and his title - He Who Watches, along with some of the lore about Gruumsh, indicates he's a controling and opressive deity. For example, orcs who are not his clerics, are forbidden to speak his name.
Of course Ayrik also seems to be half-joking here, too.
Also, I'm not sure how this will factor in, but Eldath has under her wing a peacefull off-shoot of Orcs, called Ondonti. Eldath has something off a following, or at least recognition among Elves. Ondonti, are what is interesting, counted as fey. Which may indicate that Orcs, and possibly all goblinoids, were originaly corrupted Fey.(Which is also why I hated the fact Mielikki basicaly stated in one of the novels, that it's okay to kill all goblinoids and orcs, which is terribly out of character, and ignores her age long friendship with Eldath. Although, thankfully, Ed had an explanation, that the sundering affected the behavior of gods, making it less jaring.).
I also took issue with Cattibrie's hard line against orcs, which was supposed to be a divine revelation from Mielikki. It is especially ridiculous in light of the Lady Penitent series. In 4e, drow who have descended from the Illythiri (sp?) are all innately evil and beyond redemption, due to demonically tainted blood. Yet Mielikki has a drow follower who is definitely of that bloodline. So what gives?
Where did Ed say that the Sundering affected the gods' behavior? That is a very interesting twist (and it would explain a few things). |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2014 : 00:32:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
I also took issue with Cattibrie's hard line against orcs, which was supposed to be a divine revelation from Mielikki. It is especially ridiculous in light of the Lady Penitent series. In 4e, drow who have descended from the Illythiri (sp?) are all innately evil and beyond redemption, due to demonically tainted blood. Yet Mielikki has a drow follower who is definitely of that bloodline. So what gives?
I disliked that line as well, but because previous lore points that even ''muhahaha ebil'' races can actually behave quite normally. What you say about Ilythiiri drow is not true (short of a retcon), they can be of any alignment, as many cases from previous canon show (most eilistraeens, for example, are Ilythiiri, just like the vast majority of drow are...). That ''demon taint'' does very little to them, as the ''devil taint'' does very little to tieflings (as it is also said in the 5e PHB).
However the 5e basic document (or PHB, I don't recall atm) says that orcs were created to be ''evil'', so -while I don't like it at all- it looks like it is their new stance on greenskins (unless they are of a mixed race, like half orcs). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 05 Oct 2014 00:41:20 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2014 : 00:42:20
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Goblins are somehow associated with fey. I'm not sure if the Feywild is their place of protogenesis or merely a transitory route by which they migrated from elsewhere unto the Realms.
Orcs and goblins have always been grouped together as "goblinoids" or "humanoids". I'm not sure if this has anything to do with their origins or merely that they have interbred and crossbred amongst each other for countless ages. Orcs are certainly interfertile with humans, ogres, and bugbears; perhaps they are also able to breed with half-giants, gnolls, trolls, and common demihumans.
Early AD&D canon, greatly inspired by Tolkien's creations, categorically asserted that no combination of crossbreeding between elves, dwarves, and goblinoids was at all ever possible. It even asserted that a half-elf and a half-orc (both with one human parent) could never issue any union. The blood did not mix.
Orcs were originally created to serve as a monster. They exemplified all the basest, lowest, most beastial and undeveloped traits of humans - they were stupid, belligerent, savage, cruel, brutal, lustful, greedy, violent creatures. A fantastic version of a bogeymen, an all-too-real and constant terror in a fantasy world.
Elves were originally created as something more than human. Evolved, sophisticated, refined, graceful, beautiful, immortal. They represent the highest, finest, most rarified, most developed, most erudite human characteristics. Something like an ideal to which humans could only hope to aspire.
The mix seems improbable, almost unworkable, to me. But interesting nonetheless. And never impossible in a world where magic and divine will can shape events and destinies. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 05 Oct 2014 00:49:05 |
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Xal Valzar
Learned Scribe
Argentina
214 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2014 : 03:26:54
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I think that no matter what influences come into a creature if it is sentient it has free-will and can choose its values, and if it choose to pursue evil values its fair game. think of Alquida, there human like you and me but although they came from a culture that teaches them for fanatic hate but they can still choose to make their own values and pursue their own path and when they do it is inspiring(this is why Drizzt is such a cool character).
now we know that some orcs can have some amount of intelligence and hence are sentient. and if they are sentient they can choose and choose their own character and values they pursue. hiergo orcs can be good.
i think the fact of them mixing is possible, perhaps with a bit of magic or "simple" mix and match genetics.
or you can say that because only genes that don't inter lap can lead to a zigota(first cell in the embryo) by necessity he will look in a way thats makes him quite genetically lucky. |
Knowledge is Power |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2014 : 03:54:06
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I have really enjoyed this thread, but I think there are some important questions that have not been asked that would fundamentally shape this character. Primarily, who is this characters mother?
Either his mother is an elf or she is an orc. No matter how you slice it, you will have some issues with justifying this characters birth. Then it will be a matter of who raised him.
There are a lot of challenges right out of the gate for this character. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2014 : 03:56:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
it used to be explicitly stated back in 1st edition that elves and orcs could NOT breed. However, that being said, we now have folks saying Gruumsh and Corellon are brothers, so WTF...
Pretty sure that is entirely non-canon fanlore, and that nothing like that has even been suggested, in canon.
No, this is entirely true. I believe it was either in the Complete Book of Elves, or in one of the early descriptions of elves in both 1st and 2nd ed. Also, it was EXPLICITELY stated in an OGL book from the 3.5 era, complete with a very comprehensive chart chart on which races were biologically compatible with each other, The Book of Erotic Fantasy. Elves and orcs were NOT compatible. No children could spring from such a union, even assuming an elf and orc could even stand the thought of getting intimate- or even if from rape. It simply is not possible, according to both that source, and the others I've come across. Supposedly, there has been ONE elf/dwarf mix in the Realms, but even that is supposed to be impossible! (It was Drannor, the individual for whom that elven city was named.)
Now, as to Corellon and Grummsh being brothers, that part is fan-lore, IIRC. Marcustay had worked up an elaborate fey mythos and creation tale, if memory serves, in which this was the case. It was during the 4th ed upheaval with gods changing status and/or dying left and right, becoming aspects/exarchs, etc. I liked that explanation for why orcs and elves hated each other so much, the corrupted blood of Grummsh being the main reason orcs came to look and act as they did. It even fits in with Tolkein's original origin of orcs as corrupted elves. However, even in Tolkein's work, they could not interbreed. Nor would they ever want to. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
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Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Xal Valzar
Learned Scribe
Argentina
214 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2014 : 04:29:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
I have really enjoyed this thread, but I think there are some important questions that have not been asked that would fundamentally shape this character. Primarily, who is this characters mother?
Either his mother is an elf or she is an orc. No matter how you slice it, you will have some issues with justifying this characters birth. Then it will be a matter of who raised him.
There are a lot of challenges right out of the gate for this character.
well to say it briefly, his mother is an elf and he was raised in elven culture that his father acutally liked. how did his parents meet? well his father saved a battle that an elfen general botched and hte general manipulated the report and made his father into the bodyguard of his wife and treated him as a servant. but his father was very handsome(even for a non-orc) and a man of great character so his mother fell in love with him. so he was born like most people are, elf sees orc, elf likes orc - orc likes elf they get married and then have babies.
he grew up moving from place to place seldomly being accepted for his strange birth and his superior intelgance and physical skill. kids picked on him because he was diffrent, only half elfs and half orc kids were nice to him. but his family had to move a lot because they were never accepted.
when he grew up his mother passed down elven culture singing him tales and teaching him magic, which he was quick to learn, his father also thought him to fight and shared tales of valor from his past, showing to him virtues such as independence, pride, critical thinking, inegrity and justice.
his father, never the strongest but the brightest amongst the orcs, showed him his fighting style which involves using the opponents strength against him by quick thinking and applied simple mechanics. he also encugared him to mix his knowledge of magic to his fighting stating that "if you act apart from your knowledge you are an animal. you are sentient being, that divine spark you hold is your pride and glory! you must ignite that spark [casts Shocking Grasp cantrip] with your mind [touches him lightly on the head with the Shocking Grasp hand]." (he learned shocking grasp from his wife and Xal's mother).
this explains his fighting style of Wizard AND Warrior and it bieng a part of his Ideal, Integrity. by Integrity i mean the union of ones knowledge and of ones actions. eventualy he learns more complex mechanics and applies low level abjuration and cunjuration spells (mage hand, shield) to apply force on certain parts of an attacker making him lose balance and givng him the advantage [this is based on the fighting philosphy of Judo]
also he wishes to apply his knowledge of magical items to change peoples life for the better. so he wanders into ancient tomes seeking knowledge of enchanments to make magical items cheaper, thus allowing for a magical "dish washer" for working class people. he intends to be a merchant since traders go by the wares a man sales and his charcter, not his background. |
Knowledge is Power |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2014 : 06:51:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
it used to be explicitly stated back in 1st edition that elves and orcs could NOT breed. However, that being said, we now have folks saying Gruumsh and Corellon are brothers, so WTF...
Pretty sure that is entirely non-canon fanlore, and that nothing like that has even been suggested, in canon.
No, this is entirely true. I believe it was either in the Complete Book of Elves, or in one of the early descriptions of elves in both 1st and 2nd ed. Also, it was EXPLICITELY stated in an OGL book from the 3.5 era, complete with a very comprehensive chart chart on which races were biologically compatible with each other, The Book of Erotic Fantasy. Elves and orcs were NOT compatible. No children could spring from such a union, even assuming an elf and orc could even stand the thought of getting intimate- or even if from rape. It simply is not possible, according to both that source, and the others I've come across. Supposedly, there has been ONE elf/dwarf mix in the Realms, but even that is supposed to be impossible! (It was Drannor, the individual for whom that elven city was named.)
Now, as to Corellon and Grummsh being brothers, that part is fan-lore, IIRC. Marcustay had worked up an elaborate fey mythos and creation tale, if memory serves, in which this was the case. It was during the 4th ed upheaval with gods changing status and/or dying left and right, becoming aspects/exarchs, etc. I liked that explanation for why orcs and elves hated each other so much, the corrupted blood of Grummsh being the main reason orcs came to look and act as they did. It even fits in with Tolkein's original origin of orcs as corrupted elves. However, even in Tolkein's work, they could not interbreed. Nor would they ever want to.
I was referring to the Corellon/Gruumsh bit. I can't speak on the topic of what races can and can't breed, from earlier editions.
Oh, and the dwelf that part of Myth Drannor was named for is not the only one in the Realms. My own compiled notes on dwelves and half-dwarves:
quote:
I'm only recalling the existence of two named dwelves.
One was Isinghar "Feyrune" Ironstar, described as a dwelf runecarver and archmage of Ammarindar, who was one of the secondary casters in the raising of the mythal over Myth Glaurach. This is from the Myth Glaurach article that was part of the Mintiper's Chapbook series.
The other named dwelf was Dlarbraddath. We don't know if that was his actual name; we just know that a section of Myth Drannor was "named for the gardener who laid it out, a being said to have an elven mother and a dwarven father!" (page 19, Campaign Guide to Myth Drannor, Ruins of Myth Drannor boxed set). I think it more likely he was named Dlarbradd.
The Myth Glaurach article also notes, in the footnotes, that
quote:
Dwarf-elf crossbreeds, known as "dwelf" in the singular and "dwelves" in the plural, are noted as having been common in the days of Eaerlann in FR11 – Dwarves Deep, p. 6.
Page 6 of Dwarves Deep says:
quote:
Humans, gnomes, and halflings are cross-fertile with dwarves. Elminster says elves and dwarves can have issue as well. Common in Ardeep, Eaerlann, and Myth Drannor of old, this is unheard-of today.
and
quote:
"Half-dwarves" are not a distinct race. Save for their height (a head taller than most dwarves) all offspring of unions between dwarves and other races look and act (and are treated in the rules) as pureblood dwarves. Dwarven halfbreeds always have the stocky build and hirsute appearance of purebloods.
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Xal Valzar
Learned Scribe
Argentina
214 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2014 : 07:15:59
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btw a breed of orc and elf and some human can turn out to be super model gorgeous, just saying.
i wonder what a halfling-gnome or halfling-human and human-gnome might look like.
wonder if gnomes and halfings can breed with dwarves. i know from darksun that there are dwarf/human breeds.
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Knowledge is Power |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2014 : 13:42:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Xal Valzar
btw a breed of orc and elf and some human can turn out to be super model gorgeous, just saying.
i wonder what a halfling-gnome or halfling-human and human-gnome might look like.
wonder if gnomes and halfings can breed with dwarves. i know from darksun that there are dwarf/human breeds.
According to the bit I quoted, yes, dwarves can breed with humans, gnomes, and halflings. That's from Dwarves Deep, which is the definitive source material on dwarves in the Realms, from the pen of Ed Greenwood himself. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2014 : 14:02:26
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The author of that Gruumsh/Corellon article had asked me permission to use my fan-lore. The story itself (as written in Dragon) is considered MYTH and and a heresy by Orcs and Elves alike. The only ones who continue to perpetuate the story would be non-elves and non-orcs. It is written in the 1e/2e style of 'uncertain 3rd person' AND is considered "just a myth" (which means it could be true... but nearly all elves and orcs will deny it... which probably helps to perpetuate the myth).
That means you can use it in your games... or just toss it aside. The myth is canon... the truth of it is not (nor is the 'lie' of it - it is an unknown factor and tenuous at best).
As for Orcs and Elves not being able to breed - this is canon from somewhere; I recall reading it. Could be OD&D or 1e/2e... not sure. Regardless, I've seen myriad cases where rules were broken by writers, in many things - there are always 'exceptions'. That means that it is extremely rare and considered impossible... and yet it occasionally happens.
In my purely homebrew setting (a perpetual work-in-progress that I don't actually run, unlike my Misbegotton Realms which I am running) I explain it with something called 'Morphic Blood', which I am not going to get into because it has a huge effect on my whole world (part of the over-arching back-story), but you could easily adapt the same concept in FR (or any fantasy world). Human blood could be used in place of it - so long as their is a trace of human blood anywhere in either participant's bloodline - and it could be so remote and far in the past no-one remembers it - then the two have a chance of breeding (whatever they are). I doubt at this time, after some 15,000+ years of shared history, then any race is 'pure' anymore.
Now, I don't personally like that (which is why I change a lot of things IMGs from D&D canon/mechanics), because in the RW humans can't breed with everything. This is why I use another race for that bloodline in my homebrew world. However, it is also simple to say that on some worlds bloodlines are 'truer' then on others, which is why on some worlds elves and orcs may be able to breed freely, whilst on others they can't breed at all. Since our Earth only has one sentient race (that we know of), we are under the assumption that it is not possible... on Toril, those rules would not apply. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Oct 2014 13:32:08 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2014 : 02:20:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
it used to be explicitly stated back in 1st edition that elves and orcs could NOT breed. However, that being said, we now have folks saying Gruumsh and Corellon are brothers, so WTF...
Pretty sure that is entirely non-canon fanlore, and that nothing like that has even been suggested, in canon.
From Dragon #408.... I will note, it says its considered a heresy, but it is in canon intimated that the two gods are possibly brothers.
"But first I must speak a bit of heresy—and quietly.
This is something bandied about by loremasters of
Vecna and particularly intrepid theologians. Some
claim, you see, that there were once two brothers,
twins of a primogenitor deity that sacrificed its own
life so that its offspring would live. It imbued one son
with exceeding intelligence, light, and beauty, and
the other with savagery, darkness, and chaos. This
deity believed its sons could turn the tide of war in
favor of the gods. To the elder brother, Corellon, it
granted arcane magic, knowing he would possess the
care and wisdom needed to deliver it to the mortal
world. For the other, its less intelligent and uglier son,
Gruumsh, the deity felt great compassion, and so it
seeded in him a spark of divine prescience. Yes, the
power of foresight, though it was a mere echo of the
greater power that Ioun, god of prophecy, possessed.
There is no knowing the truth of this heresy—
and it is not wise to speak of these twin gods around
those with pointed ears or those with jutting tusks.
But none will deny that a vicious rivalry has always
existed between Corellon and Gruumsh. The two
gods are mirrors unto each another: Where Corellon
is graceful and fair, Gruumsh is brutal and wanton.
The two sparred time and again, each leery of the
other. But their eternal hatred, the emotion we see
play out with every hissing arrow or bloody axe, was
yet to be realized." |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2014 : 02:44:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The author of that Gruumsh/Corellon article had asked me permission to use my fan-lore. The story itself (as written in Dragon) is considered MYTH and and a heresy by Orcs and Elves alike. The only ones who continue to perpetuate the story would be non-elves and non-orcs. It is written in the 1e/2e style of 'uncertain 3rd person' AND is considered "just a myth" (which means it could be true... but nearly all elves and orcs will deny it... which probably helps to perpetuate the myth).
That means you can use it your games... or just toss it aside. The myth is canon... the truth of it is not (nor is the 'lie' of it - it is an unknown factor and tenuous at best).
As for Orcs and Elves not being able to breed - this is canon from somewhere; I recall reading it. Could be OD&D or 1e/2e... not sure. Regardless, I've seen myriad cases where rules were broken by writers, in many things - there are always 'exceptions'. That means that it is extremely rare and considered impossible... and yet it occasionally happens.
In my purely homebrew setting (a perpetual work-in-progress that I don't actually run, unlike my Misbegotton Realms which I am running) I explain it with something called 'Morphic Blood', which I am not going to get into because it has a huge effect on my whole world (part of the over-arching back-story), but you could easily adapt the same concept in FR (or any fantasy world). Human blood could be used in place of it - so long as their is a trace of human blood anywhere in either participant's bloodline - and it could be so remote and far in the past no-one remembers it - then the two have a chance of breeding (whatever they are). I doubt at this time, after some 15,000+ years of shared history, then any race is 'pure' anymore.
Now, I don't personally like that (which is why I change a lot of things IMGs from D&D canon/mechanics), because in the RW humans can't breed with everything. This is why I use another race for that bloodline in my homebrew world. However, it is also simple to say that on some worlds bloodlines are 'truer' then on others, which is why on some worlds elves and orcs may be able to breed freely, whilst on others they can't breed at all. Since our Earth only has one sentient race (that we know of), we are under the assumption that it is not possible... on Toril, those rules would not apply.
The thing that said they couldn't breed was from the 1st edition Monster Manual entry for orcs, where they present the half-orc (see below).
"Half-Orcs: As orcs will breed with anything, there are any number of
unsavory mongrels with orcish blood, particularly orc-goblins, orc-hobgoblins, and orc-humans. Orcs cannot cross-breed with elves. Half-orcs tend to favor the orcish strain heavily, so such sorts are basically orcs although they can sometimes (lO%) pass themselves off as true creatures of their other stock (goblins, hobgoblins, humans, etc.)."
I agree with the idea that not everything should be able to interbreed. I don't want to see some gnoll / rakasta cross-breed, nor some kind of centaur/hybsil mix. I'm not real fond of the idea of dwarf-elves either. That being said, its just a game, and "nature finds a way" sometimes. However, the question was, can elves and orcs cross-breed, and I know of no canon resource that contradicts this 1st edition entry.
I will also say that I like the general idea you put forth that certain races have some kind of racial tendency for cross-breeding, and I'd state that humans, orcs, and elves have this "trait". For humans it is "widespread", with them losing a lot of their human traits and adopting the other races traits. Orcs it would seem can only cross-breed with the more savage races (goblinoids, trolls, ogres, and humans). Similarly, elves have this trait, but only with "higher functioning" races... and they have a tendency to dominate the two races, and thereby form a new "kind" of elf. Similarly, it would seem that extraplanar entities with elemental, celestial, and fiendish blood.... as well as all manner of dragons... also share human tendencies to be able to breed with many manner of beings.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2014 : 02:52:11
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| Oh, and on the elemental races, it would seem that they MAY share a bit of the lesson Asmodeus had with his tieflings.... i.e. for the most part, it mattered not which race they bred with... they all come out as genasi. There are of course exceptions.... just as there were for tieflings, because there are various flavors of half-fiends, etc.... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Xal Valzar
Learned Scribe
Argentina
214 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2014 : 03:46:12
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The author of that Gruumsh/Corellon article had asked me permission to use my fan-lore. The story itself (as written in Dragon) is considered MYTH and and a heresy by Orcs and Elves alike. The only ones who continue to perpetuate the story would be non-elves and non-orcs. It is written in the 1e/2e style of 'uncertain 3rd person' AND is considered "just a myth" (which means it could be true... but nearly all elves and orcs will deny it... which probably helps to perpetuate the myth).
That means you can use it your games... or just toss it aside. The myth is canon... the truth of it is not (nor is the 'lie' of it - it is an unknown factor and tenuous at best).
As for Orcs and Elves not being able to breed - this is canon from somewhere; I recall reading it. Could be OD&D or 1e/2e... not sure. Regardless, I've seen myriad cases where rules were broken by writers, in many things - there are always 'exceptions'. That means that it is extremely rare and considered impossible... and yet it occasionally happens.
In my purely homebrew setting (a perpetual work-in-progress that I don't actually run, unlike my Misbegotton Realms which I am running) I explain it with something called 'Morphic Blood', which I am not going to get into because it has a huge effect on my whole world (part of the over-arching back-story), but you could easily adapt the same concept in FR (or any fantasy world). Human blood could be used in place of it - so long as their is a trace of human blood anywhere in either participant's bloodline - and it could be so remote and far in the past no-one remembers it - then the two have a chance of breeding (whatever they are). I doubt at this time, after some 15,000+ years of shared history, then any race is 'pure' anymore.
Now, I don't personally like that (which is why I change a lot of things IMGs from D&D canon/mechanics), because in the RW humans can't breed with everything. This is why I use another race for that bloodline in my homebrew world. However, it is also simple to say that on some worlds bloodlines are 'truer' then on others, which is why on some worlds elves and orcs may be able to breed freely, whilst on others they can't breed at all. Since our Earth only has one sentient race (that we know of), we are under the assumption that it is not possible... on Toril, those rules would not apply.
The thing that said they couldn't breed was from the 1st edition Monster Manual entry for orcs, where they present the half-orc (see below).
"Half-Orcs: As orcs will breed with anything, there are any number of
unsavory mongrels with orcish blood, particularly orc-goblins, orc-hobgoblins, and orc-humans. Orcs cannot cross-breed with elves. Half-orcs tend to favor the orcish strain heavily, so such sorts are basically orcs although they can sometimes (lO%) pass themselves off as true creatures of their other stock (goblins, hobgoblins, humans, etc.)."
I agree with the idea that not everything should be able to interbreed. I don't want to see some gnoll / rakasta cross-breed, nor some kind of centaur/hybsil mix. I'm not real fond of the idea of dwarf-elves either. That being said, its just a game, and "nature finds a way" sometimes. However, the question was, can elves and orcs cross-breed, and I know of no canon resource that contradicts this 1st edition entry.
I will also say that I like the general idea you put forth that certain races have some kind of racial tendency for cross-breeding, and I'd state that humans, orcs, and elves have this "trait". For humans it is "widespread", with them losing a lot of their human traits and adopting the other races traits. Orcs it would seem can only cross-breed with the more savage races (goblinoids, trolls, ogres, and humans). Similarly, elves have this trait, but only with "higher functioning" races... and they have a tendency to dominate the two races, and thereby form a new "kind" of elf. Similarly, it would seem that extraplanar entities with elemental, celestial, and fiendish blood.... as well as all manner of dragons... also share human tendencies to be able to breed with many manner of beings.
well the way to settle this is to say that the father had some human blood in him, perhaps a great grandmother. and there must be some noble houses that have some human in them. espically since once some of myth drannor were humans as well. |
Knowledge is Power |
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Xal Valzar
Learned Scribe
Argentina
214 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2014 : 03:48:46
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
it used to be explicitly stated back in 1st edition that elves and orcs could NOT breed. However, that being said, we now have folks saying Gruumsh and Corellon are brothers, so WTF...
Pretty sure that is entirely non-canon fanlore, and that nothing like that has even been suggested, in canon.
From Dragon #408.... I will note, it says its considered a heresy, but it is in canon intimated that the two gods are possibly brothers.
"But first I must speak a bit of heresy—and quietly.
This is something bandied about by loremasters of
Vecna and particularly intrepid theologians. Some
claim, you see, that there were once two brothers,
twins of a primogenitor deity that sacrificed its own
life so that its offspring would live. It imbued one son
with exceeding intelligence, light, and beauty, and
the other with savagery, darkness, and chaos. This
deity believed its sons could turn the tide of war in
favor of the gods. To the elder brother, Corellon, it
granted arcane magic, knowing he would possess the
care and wisdom needed to deliver it to the mortal
world. For the other, its less intelligent and uglier son,
Gruumsh, the deity felt great compassion, and so it
seeded in him a spark of divine prescience. Yes, the
power of foresight, though it was a mere echo of the
greater power that Ioun, god of prophecy, possessed.
There is no knowing the truth of this heresy—
and it is not wise to speak of these twin gods around
those with pointed ears or those with jutting tusks.
But none will deny that a vicious rivalry has always
existed between Corellon and Gruumsh. The two
gods are mirrors unto each another: Where Corellon
is graceful and fair, Gruumsh is brutal and wanton.
The two sparred time and again, each leery of the
other. But their eternal hatred, the emotion we see
play out with every hissing arrow or bloody axe, was
yet to be realized."
well oddly enough a mix of an elf and an orc leads to a very powerful warrior. |
Knowledge is Power |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2014 : 04:23:55
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
it used to be explicitly stated back in 1st edition that elves and orcs could NOT breed. However, that being said, we now have folks saying Gruumsh and Corellon are brothers, so WTF...
Pretty sure that is entirely non-canon fanlore, and that nothing like that has even been suggested, in canon.
From Dragon #408.... I will note, it says its considered a heresy, but it is in canon intimated that the two gods are possibly brothers.
Is that Realms canon or core? I'm thinking the latter, since it refers to Vecna... |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2014 : 06:00:24
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its core.....
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2014 : 18:13:15
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| Ah, that was the source, IIRC. However, I believe it was mentioned elsewhere, as well, most likely the CBoE, as I said earlier. I'd have to dig it out to be certain, though. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
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Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2014 : 23:59:35
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The creation myth in PHBR8 refers to all the (primary) race-gods - specifically including Corellon and Gruumsh and Moradin - as being siblings of a sort, having emerged from the same grand source of creation (which is not, incidentally, named Ao). It doesnt state that the gods are brothers and sisters in the sense of family, clan, or even pantheon - it doesnt even mention the words.
Its also presented as a myth. Mythology is fascinating stuff but its mythical, if it was still believed then it wouldnt be mythology, it would be history or religion.
Its also not Realmslore, its generic elven lore. Realms deities often differ from their generic cognates.
Its also an *optional* rulebook. Not meant to overwrite official *core* canon, even if it was published by WotC.
If elf-orc crossbreeds and Corellon-Gruumsh fraternity are appealing notions, they are fun to play and explore and develop, they enrich and entertain your D&D experience - by all means, go wild, enjoy, milk it for all you can! Dont waste time arguing about or attempting to adhere to pure canon. But dont ever expect such things to appear in future D&D sources or Realmslore or FR novels, unless perhaps you are able to work for WotC or impassion somebody who does.
Just sayin, lol |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 07 Oct 2014 00:06:12 |
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Xal Valzar
Learned Scribe
Argentina
214 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2014 : 00:51:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The creation myth in PHBR8 refers to all the (primary) race-gods - specifically including Corellon and Gruumsh and Moradin - as being siblings of a sort, having emerged from the same grand source of creation (which is not, incidentally, named Ao). It doesnt state that the gods are brothers and sisters in the sense of family, clan, or even pantheon - it doesnt even mention the words.
Its also presented as a myth. Mythology is fascinating stuff but its mythical, if it was still believed then it wouldnt be mythology, it would be history or religion.
Its also not Realmslore, its generic elven lore. Realms deities often differ from their generic cognates.
Its also an *optional* rulebook. Not meant to overwrite official *core* canon, even if it was published by WotC.
If elf-orc crossbreeds and Corellon-Gruumsh fraternity are appealing notions, they are fun to play and explore and develop, they enrich and entertain your D&D experience - by all means, go wild, enjoy, milk it for all you can! Dont waste time arguing about or attempting to adhere to pure canon. But dont ever expect such things to appear in future D&D sources or Realmslore or FR novels, unless perhaps you are able to work for WotC or impassion somebody who does.
Just sayin, lol
well... some ideas are just so cool you have to let them in. but seriously im not being cocky but Xal Valzar the Elf-Orc who has a unique philosophy of Integrity, the union of thought and action, and is wizard-fighter is one of a kind in Forgoten Realms and fantasy in general.
(well some say that he reminds them of Richard from the Sword of Truth)
if anyone knows a character like him tell me.
Well i thought of it and there are reasons WotC might want such a charcter:
a) Xal Valzar is firsty a sceitnist, a man who seeks to define defiant laws to nature, and a sceince based approach is something that is needed in any fantasy setting so magic doesnt become anything at anytime.
b) its a way to create an intresting NEW race (without playing metaphysical motorcycle jousting). people have these notions of elves and off orcs but having an orc who is a good guy and that he takes his path out of his own choices is a new spin on orcs. and that an elfen women falling in love with an orc(!) because of his charcter is a neat quality seen in half elf stories ramped to 11,000.
c) it can expand a character class that is cool and not nearly as played (wizard-fighter)
d) the charcter brings ideals that are in FR novels and have shown to be inspire readers. ie making choices based on good and evil, thinking in logical about who you are talking to rather then conform to prejudices, having certainty both moral and factual.
e) his a cool character javascript:insertsmilie(' ')
the drawbacks will be
a) revoking somethings said in 1-3 edition.
b)....
hell i didnt think of too many drawbacks |
Knowledge is Power |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2014 : 13:44:51
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Well, that was my point.
In a nutshell: purebloods CANNOT... but there is no real way of saying anything is 'pureblood' anymore. The 'mix' (cross-breeding) could have occurred thousands of years ago, thus someone looking like a true elf (with less then .0001% human blood) and another looking completely like an Orc (also with an infinitesimal amount of human DNA) would be be able to breed, because both have the necessary impurity (making them a half elf and half-orc, even though no-one would be able to tell that).
Consider it a recessive gene, and the frequency of it showing up insanely rare (so those people would be either 'DM specials' or a writer's pet character).
Like I said, I don't actually use any of that (using human bloodlines) - I blame it all on another (Lovecraftian/antideluvian) race from back in the primordial past. However, to simplify things and have it fit with D&D mechanics, half-orcs and half-elves CAN breed, even if the 'half' isn't really half anymore. You can whatever YOU WANT in your games. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2014 : 13:51:31
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Wooly, since we know there are portals to Greyhawk and elsewhere on Toril, and the 'real' Khelben is supposedly even living on Oerth, and Iuz's daddy kidnapped Waukeen, and we also have other connections like Planescape/Great wheel, Spelljammer, and even Ravenloft...
What is D&D canon IS FR canon. Its the SAME Corellon and Gruumsh, everywhere - you are just being absurd because you don't like the lore. To say otherwise is just YOUR opinion. Do people disagreeing with you annoy you that much? Are people only allowed to have fun YOUR WAY?
And I've seen at least one mention of Vecna in FR canon. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2014 : 17:10:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Wooly, since we know there are portals to Greyhawk and elsewhere on Toril, and the 'real' Khelben is supposedly even living on Oerth, and Iuz's daddy kidnapped Waukeen, and we also have other connections like Planescape/Great wheel, Spelljammer, and even Ravenloft...
What is D&D canon IS FR canon. Its the SAME Corellon and Gruumsh, everywhere - you are just being absurd because you don't like the lore. To say otherwise is just YOUR opinion. Do people disagreeing with you annoy you that much? Are people only allowed to have fun YOUR WAY?
And I've seen at least one mention of Vecna in FR canon.
This has nothing to do with my feelings. Core canon is not Realms canon. If it is, drow would have a different origin, we wouldn't have moon elves or gold elves, and a lot of other stuff would be different.
Core canon is not specific to any one campaign setting. Every setting's canon overrules core material.
Therefore, "D&D canon" as you call it has no bearing on the Realms, just like it has no bearing on Krynn or Athas. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 08 Oct 2014 17:10:42 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2014 : 19:02:47
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| Rare fighter/wizards?! Gish are less than a deutschmark a dozen. I am also confused by this "scientific aproach'' to magic. The two are polar opposites. With magic, anything IS possible anywhere at anytime. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 08 Oct 2014 19:18:16 |
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Are Elf-Orcs possible?
Topic Locked
