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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 12 May 2014 : 09:45:58

Right then, my interest in this area has been kindled by a stray mention of the Suren tribe that were precursors to the modern Nar. The Suren were a tribe of Kalmyks who came from the Hagga Shan (a smallish mountain range unable to support much life which now holds a group of dwarves from Sossal).

So i want to know everything about the Hordelands.

I have the Horde sourcebook and the three adventures (Stormriders, Black Courser and Blood Charge). Are there any other sourcebooks that might have juicy references to the Hordelands that you wouldnt expect to be there.

I found two artefacts in the Book of Artefacts that give a juicy insight into what i think is the arrival of the Kalmyks (under Gisen Khan).

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 12 May 2014 : 10:16:10

For some reason i have had a look into the languages and alphabets because like Markus i am convinced the Seventon peoples (Netheril) are from the Endless Wastes.

I know of four alphabets Thorass, Espruar, Dethek, and Ruathlek thanks to the campaign guides. FR wiki mentions Jotun and a draconic alphabet (although it hints that this is a derivative of dwarvish and therefore Dethek)

So we have the Imaskari language and alphabet that must have moved into the Hordelands region when the Imaskari conquered it after -8000 DR.

This quote is from Races of Faerun

quote:
The Imaskari spoke Roushoum, a precursor of such varied tongues as Durpari, the Rauric family (Chessentan, Mulhorandi, and Untheric), Raumvira, and the various Tuigan dialects. The Imaskari alphabet has wholly fallen out of use, and is only found inscribed on a few ancient artifacts and the walls of Imaskari ruins.

So the language influences Raumvira, Mulhorand, and Unther but the alphabet drops out of existence.

Now The Raumvirans

quote:
Members of this ethnic group speak Raumvira, a tongue closely related to Rashemi, Dwarven, and a northern dialect of Imaskari. Raumvirans employ an alphabet of Dethek runes

The Sossrim use Dethek runes.

The Shou employ the Draconic alphabet to represent the Shou language.

And the Netherese use the draconic script.

If Draconic is indeed derived from dwarven (they werent going to use Jotun who are their ancestral enemies), then we have an awful lot of people that are or were from lands owned by the Imaskari that use a dwarf/dragon related script for their alphabet.

So i wonder if the Imaskari alphabet was not closely modelled on or related to draconic or dwarvish.

Either way it is curious that Netheril uses a draconic script in an area that at the time would have used a Thorass alphabet most likely

Anyway enough of a language musing and onto the origins of the peoples of the steppes.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 12 May 2014 : 10:52:41

So i have a first mention of peoples in the Hordelands

- -7100 DR: The Imaskari Empire subjugates Taangan tribes and demands semi-annual tribute.

Then we have Imaskari ownership until -2488 DR when Imaskar falls.

The Hordelands sourcebook then says Mulhorand, Solon, and Ra-Khati took over conquering the Hordelands.

quote:
The next major invasion occurred in the north with the establishment of the Raumathar Empire. This nation drove into the Endless Waste from Narfell and Rashemen, extending as far as Sossal in the north and the Lake of Mists to the south.

This occurs in -900 DR.

And according to the Hordelands book, shortly after the founding of Raumathar the Li Dynasty expanded into the Hordelands as well.

These things persist until the arrival of the Kalmyks out of the Hagga Shan who then drove the Li Dynasty back to the Chukei Plateau and because of this Khazari rebelled.

The Li Dynasty ends in -670 DR according to GHoTR so the Kalmyks must have arrived sometime before then.

Next came the copper demon of Tros who split the Kalmyks into those who lived north of the Kora Shan mountains and those who lived south.

I reckon those who lived south became the Suren tribes.

The copper demon of Tros' reign ends in -240 DR.

The Great Conflagration occurs in -160 DR and shortly after that the Suren arrive and push through to Narfel where they become the modern Nar.

Now the Artefacts of Gisen Khan in the Book of Artefacts mentions Gisen battling a Manggus and slaying it a long time ago. I wonder if the copper demon of Tros and this Manggus are not related somehow.

Anyone have any info or quotes about the Kalmyks or Copper Demon of Tros or other bits relating to the ancient history of the Hordelands.

I wonder what the Endless Wastes and the Plains of the Horse were like before the arrival of the Kalmyks (ie in Imaskari time). Were horses always present. Did the nomads breed them to be mounts or was it the Kalmyks that first started this and so were the first to unite the tribes and conquer the empires around them.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 12 May 2014 : 11:29:44

I wonder if the celestial bureaucracy is not some kind of demi plane inhabited by Imaskari artificers that found some way to transform themselves into another form or ascend to another stage of existence (like Sharn and Phaerimm are supposedly end stages of magical tranformation).

There are quite a few references to demi planes and the cross over between these and Imaskari owned territory (who were masters of demi planes and all things extra planar) is probably more than coincidence.

Maybe Monkey is a corruption of an ancient Imaskari name (i'm sure i have seen a few Imaskari names in the various books that begin with an M)

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 12 May 2014 : 16:51:34

Just discovered the Hollow Crown Mountain and the Glacier of the Lost King.

The Kingdom of Guge sounds incredibly interesting and sits nicely with my spirit realms idea.

So we have an entire kingdom of fey like spirit folk (mountain spirit folk only mentioned but they are probably only predominant because of all the mountains nearby.)

A supposedly cruel and wicked kingdom they were destroyed by the Kao dynasty of Shou Lung.

Of course the Kao dynasty of Shou Lung were the inheritors of the Upper Imaskar empire and were probably quite wicked and evil themselves.

I wonder if the cruelty of Guge was not a misinterpretation of fey disinterest in human affairs.

Curiously it says that the last king of Guge marched his army into the Glacier of the Lost King seeking out the hosts of the Celestial Emperor.

Now "hosts" of course could refer to the army of the Kao Shun dynasty, but one would wonder why they would send their army onto a glacier in the first place (and why another army would then go and look for them).

Perhaps the word "hosts" is literal. The whole Katakoro, Ra-Khati, an Khazari area is rife with references to the path of enlightenment which i guess is to do with ascending to godhood so perhaps there is a link here.

Maybe the Celestial Emperor was an Imaskari artificer who found a demi plane where he was raised to another level of existence by the "hosts" of this demi plane. Maybe the entrance was in Hollow Crown Mountain and the last king of Guge was trying to find it, but because he had not wandered the path of enlightenment he was not allowed and cursed to wander the mountain forever.

The remnants of Guge (after it was crushed by Shou Lung) moved into the valley inside Hollow Crown Mountain and hid there from the rest of the world (and they would probably be the only ones the last king of Guge would allow across the glacier unharmed - since they are his kindred).

Anyway, just a few thoughts.

The whole hordelands area does seem to be a vast rotten nexus of spirit and fey creatures. My spirit realms theory where i postulated the Hordelands basin was once host to a strong connection to Faerie seems to sit nicely with this (that the Sarrukh then helped to break). Especially now i found a whole kingdom of spirit people.

I'm not to sure about the Bhaal, Myrkul and Cyric references in it, but fey can also be obsessed with death (just like people, but even more extreme) and then perhaps Bhaal sought them out to convert them to his worship.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 13 May 2014 : 10:16:15

The Purple Dragon Wars of Solon sound interesting. Shame i havent found much more information on it than a name.

The Copper Demon of Tros is likewise a mystery. It doesnt detail what he is other than he was attacked by a group of warriors and trapped in a magical acorn-like artefact.

Going with the demon being an indication of outer planar origin i wonder if there are fiends that are detailed as having bronzed skin.

Perhaps he was some kind of automaton created by the Imaskari that went wrong. His animating spirit could be what was trapped in the acorn.

Also found another interesting clue in Beacon Cairns (and the Great Spire of the Ice Sea). Beacon Cairn is home to a massive beacon that acted like some kind of warding artefact. Ancient lore says that should the beacon ever go out then the evil of Narfell will return.

Curiously the beacon did go out and the entire town was destroyed by some kind of enormous clawed creature (in 1373 DR). Even weirder is that Eltab was released from the demoncyst beneath the Thaymount in 1373 where he was subsequently trapped beneath the citadel of conjurors.

I wonder if Beacon Cairn was somehow a ward created by the remnants of Raumathar to stop him destroying the town. When he was released from Thaymount he made a quick stop off at Beacon Cairn to annihilate it just because they had actually managed to stop him in the past.

That way the prophesy comes true because Eltab definitely was one of the greatest evils of ancient Narfell. And if Eltab himself didnt destroy it then maybe he sent a demonic servant of his to do the deed.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 13 May 2014 : 12:53:49

Just come across the mountain of iron.

A massive, densely packed lode of iron that emits a magnetic field strong enough to pull an armoured man off his horse and drag him at 30 ft a second towards the mountain.

It exists in the far north east of the hordelands in an area called the plains of the horse (where the Kalmyks and Suren first arrived).

I wonder if the Copper Demon of Tros was not copper at all but rather rust covered iron

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 13 May 2014 : 12:57:53

I also found a reference to a spell jamming vessel in the far north of the endless wastes.

Perhaps there is a link between the emergence of the Kalmyks and this spelljamming vessel crashing (although unlikely since the crashed spelljammer gives no date)

Mayhap the copper demon of tros was really from outer space. he crashed in the far north and moved upwards to plague the Kalmyk tribes of Sossal which caused their migration to the Plain of Horses

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11701 Posts

Posted - 13 May 2014 : 13:27:33

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Just come across the mountain of iron.

A massive, densely packed lode of iron that emits a magnetic field strong enough to pull an armoured man off his horse and drag him at 30 ft a second towards the mountain.

It exists in the far north east of the hordelands in an area called the plains of the horse (where the Kalmyks and Suren first arrived).

I wonder if the Copper Demon of Tros was not copper at all but rather rust covered iron

or a dead primordial

or an experiment by the Raumathari (my Raumathari version were heavy into metal magics, especially magic affecting iron)

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 13 May 2014 : 13:44:33

I had already thought primordial. And there is no reason the crashed spelljammer couldnt contain a primordial like creature, maybe of Imaskari origin (their first attempt at spelljamming). The copper demon of tros is certainly a unique creature and so would probably classify as a primordial in that it was unique, super powerful, and possibly immortal.

Raumathari origin has to be partially ruled out for the mountain of iron because it is soooo far away from Raumathar's borders (although it might have wandered off i suppose).

Cant wait to read the Kara Tur sourcebook now to further expand the hordelands area.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 13 May 2014 : 14:52:55

Hmm, Punakha Dzong seems to give a bit more insight into the history.

quote:
Punakha is an old monastery built in ancient times before the Kao invasions. It was established at a time when the different sects of the Path waged open war on each other, the abbots supporting or defying the petty princes of their region. At that time Punakha was one of the strongest of these. For many decades it successfully withstood the Kao invaders. Eventually its resistance fell to politicking and the Kao managed to install an abbot favourable to their dynasty.

So it looks like a long time before fall of the last king of Guge on Hollow Crown Mountains there were a number of factions of people (i assume spirit folk or other fey creatures) warring over the interpretation of "The Path".

Now i have yet to discover what this "Path" is, but my personal idea is that it is a literal path or portal network created by the Imaskari.

The destination of course is up for debate but i would suppose this could be linked to beings of a higher level of existence. The Imaskari while being zealous god haters may have aspired to go one better than the gods.

In a similar way that monks can transcend and become immortal (at least as far as the 3rd edition class goes). Perhaps this is inspired by the Imaskari themselves who created a demi plane where those dwelling within it are transformed into a different level of existence (that just happened to look like a massive serpentine dragon).

So these gujari spirit folk warred among each other over how to follow "The Path" and so lost their way. The Kao installed someone favourable to them in the settlement and maybe one of their emperors discovered the true way of "The Path" and was able to ascend, thereby becoming one of those celestial dragon emperor people they worship in Kara-Tur.

Of course i havent read anything about Kara-Tur yet so i know nothing of their mythology and history, but its on my to do list.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 13 May 2014 : 15:21:20

I think i have found the source of Bhaal worship in the Hordelands as well.

In 361 DR a shoon wizard called Tultysar founded a secret society of magic using assassins (The Dusk Dagger). Tultysar created a stronghold in the Starspires in Tethyr and created a portal network linking this base (The Purple Halls) to other strongholds across Faerun. One of these holds was located in the Spiderhaunt Peaks (otherwise known as Khopet Dag) north of Murghom where they meddled in far eastern affairs for centuries until dying out after 700 DR.

Now it doesnt say this secret society worshipped Bhaal but with a name like the Dusk Dagger and a profession of magic wielding assassins i would guess the majority of them worshipped Myrkul and Bhaal.

Murghom is not too far from the Katakoro Plateau or the Sentinel Spire so in 1000 years it is conceivable that Bhaal and Myrkul worship spread throughout the steppelands and probably influenced their culture in such a way that everything is now blamed on evil spirits that are linked to the deceased (which may not be true).

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11701 Posts

Posted - 13 May 2014 : 23:34:15

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I had already thought primordial. And there is no reason the crashed spelljammer couldnt contain a primordial like creature, maybe of Imaskari origin (their first attempt at spelljamming). The copper demon of tros is certainly a unique creature and so would probably classify as a primordial in that it was unique, super powerful, and possibly immortal.

Raumathari origin has to be partially ruled out for the mountain of iron because it is soooo far away from Raumathar's borders (although it might have wandered off i suppose).

Cant wait to read the Kara Tur sourcebook now to further expand the hordelands area.

I was thinking more along the lines of "hey, lets experiment with this somewhere where it won't destroy our home". Then, whatever spell involving magnetism that they were trying was more effective than they planned. Over time, more iron was pulled to the spell, and subsequently became magnetized.

Still, not a major thing, and primordial or Copper Demon work as well.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 14 May 2014 : 08:49:50

Actually i like your idea more now that i think about it. Where better to test a dangerous weapon than in an empty wasteland.

In fact if i use the demon spirit idea for animating the construct you could infer that Raumathar was trying to meld the weapon of their enemy (demon summoning) with their own strengths (constructs) to create the ultimate weapon.

Unfortunately the demon found a way to subvert it's creators commands and ran amok.

The magnetic ability could have been just the ability to remove the weapons of Nar warriors at first but the demon used it all the time and the iron from the weapons added to the constructs body and magnified his magnetic ability to the point where he couldnt turn it off (and didnt want to anyway).

That could be how the 7 heroes and 7 non-men beat him. They lured him near to a mountain which contained large deposits of iron. His body was drawn to the mountain and he fused to it. Then they used that acorn thing to trap his soul.

Unfortunately the magnetism is still in operation and now everything nearby is pulled to it.

I still wonder about the Nar/Kalmyk origins though.

They must have come from across the Great Ice Sea. The only places they could have come from was Sossal and quite bizarrely Zakhara/Al Qadim.

It mentions that the Great Ice Sea is free from ice for 6 months of the year and during that time people from Sossal visit the ports of Calimshan. So there must be a route from the very top of the world through to Zakhara and on to the rest of Faerun (although i believe there is a massive glacier inbetween Zakhara and Faerun).

Now the Sossrim are pale skinned and silver haired, while the nomads are all dark skinned and dark haired. In fact the Nar people are short as well, whereas the Raumvirans are tall. Zakharan people are noted as being tanned, dark haired and short. So perhaps the Kalmyks were originally from Zakhara.

I vaguely remember something about Fate scattering people to the winds and the Bedine may have been part of this scattering. The Bedine arrived sometime after -339 DR and the Kalmyks arrived before -670 DR so the two events are not so far apart.

Looks like i will have to read the Al Qadim book after i read the Kara Tur book. I wonder if there were any nomadic horse tribes from Zakhara?

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 14 May 2014 : 10:46:59

Well looking briefly into the Kara-Tur text book it looks like The Way, The Path of Enlightenment, The Nine Immortals, The Nine Travellers.

They are all variations of the same religious ideal which is about ascension from what i can gather.

Looks like the person that founded this ideal undertook a quest that involved visiting various places in the Hordelands where he achieved another stage on this path.

I don't know who the celestial dragon is but i'm definitely leaning towards the Path/Way being an actual path, a portal network to his demi-plane where you are transformed into an immortal creature (and his servant).

I believe that is why Anok Imaskar under the Kao dynasty conquered Guge, to gain access to this portal network.

I'm quite happy with the flavour of the eastern culture as it is now, but since it is Imaskari in origin i want to link their history more to the rest of Faerun and then have their culture develop over time due to their exposure to the fey/spirit folk that are abundant in Kara-Tur, and the meddling of this celestial emperor character.

Given the rabid god hating history of the imaskari i find it curious that they would pledge themselves so easily to the worship of a god. I figure he may be some kind of arch-fey like creature of immense power and therefore not a god, but close to it. I wonder if some of the Imaskarcana didnt end up in Kara-Tur also. I'm sure i read about an artefact somewhere that records the entire history of the Shou, sounds an awful lot like an Imaskarcana to me.

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 15 May 2014 : 07:24:50

Well this is interesting that you propose that the Celestial Bureaucracy is made out of 'ascended' Imaskari, as in the original Old Empires sourcebook, it was implied that the Unther and Mulhorand gods may the Imaskari(or the Raurini, as they were called then) who ascended, after a war with their old gods, but was retconed latter. It was expanded a bit here(although it's pure fanon) http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0602A&L=REALMS-L&P=R1336&D=0&I=-3, but it places Chronos as the Power/Deity, artificers Ra and Enlil, or rather Azarunath and Nlelaranu drained of his power, and became living gods. But I think that instead of Chronos, Anu of the Desert of Desolation module would fit better, as the is tied to the Raurin region, and fit's more thematically. He may had survived in a way, and latter made his followers fiercely monotheistic because of a grudge towards the Mulani gods.
I think you can use something similar with Nine immortals, and the rest of the Celestial Bureaucracy, but maybe ancient spirits like the Black Leopard/Bauhei(from the ‘Mad Monkey vs Dragon Claw’ module) and his kin, along/instead of Anu or Chronos. Especially that the Black Leopard hold a grudge towards the Celestial Bureaucracy, and is described as an older being, who was worshiped before the time of the Celestial Emperor, and the Nine Immortals.

Edited by - Baltas on 15 May 2014 07:50:00

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 15 May 2014 : 08:46:57

Anu is in the Desert of Desolation module?

Well i must read that since i used Anu as the head of the Babylonian/Chessentan pantheon in my rewrite of the old empires. It might give me some insight.

I'm not sure that i am moving towards the celestial bureaucracy being actual deities.

The whole Path/Way of Enlightenment is set around the area previously known as Guge. Now it must have been of some importance because Guge was conquered by Shou long ago (i think very early in the history of Shou Lung, but i need to read my Shou history).

So whatever this Path/Way of Enlightenment is, it involves the Fey quite heavily.

Now i think according to stray references that Guge itself was involved in a civil war (possibly between river and mountain spirit folk). After this perhaps they lost access or knowledge of what the Path/Way actually was.

Then the Artificers of Anok Imaskar heard about this path and recognised it as a source of incredible power. They followed the path building portals as they went and upon entering the demi-plane of the "celestial dragon" they became immortal and indentured servants to the celestial dragon.

I'm not sure about the Nine Immortals yet, i need to read more about Shou history first but the reference to Tiger's Nest and the immortal beings there may give some clue as to what the demiplane of the "celestial dragon" actually does.

I think i may also be able to tie this into Solon and the lich there who is actually an ancient emperor of Shou in disguise who seeks to conquer Shou Lung.

It looks like he used a "purple dragon" to conquer Ra-Khati and Khazari and was intent on conquering Shou but both Ra-Khati and Khazari border on Guge and contain parts of this "path of enlightenment". I wonder if the lich in Solon had also successfully used the path and actually enslaved the "celestial dragon" for a short while using Imaskari artefacts (the dragon may be purple in colour) to his will and used him to conquer the surrounding area before he was halted by the Shou and their immortal patrons.

The Black Leopard and Monkey and maybe Dragon Claw do seem to be past benficiaries of "The Path/Way" who were probably forced out when the Shou found the Path/Way. They look to be fey in nature and are certainly capricious and flighty as fey tend to be.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 15 May 2014 : 09:24:15

How did i miss the Raurin Empire.

I have seen it referenced in the Hordelands but nowhere else. I thought it was a mistake and referred to the Mulhorand or Semphar or Murghom that inhabited the area.

It looks like the creation of the Raurin Desert was a slow process (like Anauroch) and took centuries, or perhaps millennia, and allowed the Raurin Empire to form out of the ashes of Imaskar, and may have contained the remnants of the Imaskari people, or perhaps another slave race, one taken from the Endless Wastes perhaps.

Then the Raurin desert expanded and wiped out the Raurin empire and its people moved into Durpar.

I'm not sure that the reference to Anu in the Desert of Desolation is correct, since Adama is "The One" in modern realmslore.

I also dont like the efreet and djinn reference. I would prefer some kind of unique creatures created or unleashed by the Imaskari that are significantly more threatening than an efreeti. Martek is undoubtedly an imaskari artificer, or perhaps a student of one.

Looks like i have another adventure to add to my list of reading including the three hordelands adventures.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 15 May 2014 : 11:27:03

I have noticed a distinct lack of priest classes in the Hordelands.

Most magic is performed by shukenja and wu jen.

If i were to convert it to 3.5 rules i would use a spirit shaman and an elementalist class for shukenja and wujen.

I wonder if the gods in the Hordelands and Shou Lung have been deliberately suppressed. Perhaps this is a legacy of Imaskari influence as they hated the gods and sought to destroy them.

So the Hordelands have very few gods because they were discouraged by the Imaskari lords that ruled them. Instead they trust to spirit magic.

Whereas in Shou Lung the gods are almost banned (any religion that is not sanctioned by the government is outlawed - such as Chauntea).

I havent got to the Kara-Tur book yet but i wouldnt be surprised to find almost no clerics/priest and an abundance of monks, spirit shamans and wu-jen.

So the Path of Enlightenment is looking more and more likely as an alternative to religion. In that you aspire to become immortal and powerful (almost a god) and therefore gods are unnecessary.

Just finished Storm Riders. The adventure makes a massive error in stating Ra-Khati is a wealthy land abundant in minerals and food when the Hordelands sourcebook states the exact opposite (and given the terrain of Ra-Khati i would be inclined to go with the Horde sourcebook).

I'm not a big fan of all the reincarnation and Dalai Lama reference, but it is not unsalvageable.

The Dalai Lama, the purple dragon, the black stallion, and Ambuchar the lich of Solon all seem to me perfect candidates for beings that in the past have successfully completed the Path of Enlightenment. The Invisible Tigers also seem to be Enlightened beings that may also have once been part of the celestial bureaucracy.

We already know that Ambuchar is really Tan Chin who i would suggest was at least partially successful and then exiled from the celestial bureaucracy for whatever reason.

The Dalai Lama could be another partially successful applicant to the Path that chose voluntary exile (to combat Tan Chin) and manifests as a possessing spirit, or reincarnating spirit to continue the fight against him.

The purple dragon is almost definitely a candidate for being part of the celestial bureaucracy (especially being in the form of a dragon). But maybe have him as a former ally of Tan Chin who is being blackmailed by Tan Chin into helping him (or he will reveal his secret to the celestial bureaucracy).

Not really that bothered by the Black Stallion as it isnt pertinent to the area other than to maintain the involvement of the purple dragon which could be achieved in other ways.

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11701 Posts

Posted - 16 May 2014 : 01:38:21

want a little interesting thing. Check out Set's aliases in powers and pantheons..... one of them is Gilgeam. Personally, I've always liked Set, especially that he was starting to work his way into draconic worshippers AND that he was a patron of evil wizards. If I ever were to run a campaign with the exiled Thayans forming a new set of United Tharchions, Set would make a perfect deity for them (very Stygian).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 16 May 2014 : 10:54:08

Do you maybe mean by the Celestial Dragon, Serpens, a dragon presented in ‘The Reign of Dragons’, by Brian R. James, from Candlekeep Compendium IV? She is presented as the one who lead the ancestors of the Shou people into Kara-Tur. Also what is interesting, Brian R. James, wrote than Tiamat’s first children and grandchildren like Serpens/T’ien Lung were primordials. Also, I doubt if the Purple Dragon, and Serpens were the same being, unless she decided to incarnate herself as Surtava’s cat, and possibly influence the prince in such form into enlightenment, which would be also interesting.

I think that the Raurindi were more mostly made out of Mulan people, seing how they worshipped the Mulhorandi pantheon, with an occasional Imaskari like Martek.

My own take on Anu/Adama in my campaign, is that he, along with Ptah was a member of the original Raurin Pantheon(which also included, I think the most of the Netheril gods, and the Four Elemental Lords), which was later forsaken by the Imaskari, but still worshipped by other Raurini tribes, like the Durpari. Ptah was in the beginning venerated as inventor, creator, patron of artificers by the early Imaskari, and Anu was the worshipped as representation of laws, kingship, order, and as a counterpart to Chauntea as the Sky Father. Teylas and Etugen were in my campaign originally aliases/aspects of Anu and Chauntea, but were latter taken over by Akadi and Grumbar when the two deities got weaker in the Raurini region, and Hordelands, largely because of the anti-god spells created by the artificers, while the two primordials were unaffected.

Ptah decided to abandon Toril, but Anu stayed. This left him in a weakened state, which the Imaskari used. They captured the Sky God, and drained him of his power for millennia, possibly using this process to create some of the Imaskarcana. When the Mesopotamian, and Egyptian gods finally defeated the Artificers, they decided to let Anu rot, rather than sacrifice much of their power to revitalize him, especially that Enlil(or rather Ellil, as I go with and great post/article by ripvanwormer, were he presented that it was Ellil the Babylonian/Akkadian counterpart of Enlil, who arrived on Toril, and presented him as LN, and much more ruthless than the NG Enlil, which fits what we saw of the god in Unther history, as generally an uncaring power) as without his father, he would get the position as the king of the Untheri gods.

But Anu survived, if as little more than a vestige(kind of like Tenebrous/Orcus), and out of vengeance, and partially madness caused by his torture, pushed his remaining worshippers into aggressive monotheism. I had that Anu thirst for vengeance was quelled, when he started to learn of the Way, and found an enlightenment of sorts, releasing his grudges, and finally ended his eternal struggle with regressing fully into a vestige, finding peace as a Elightened Being, like Pahdra’s . He decided to lead Satama, or possibly even incarnate himself as the prophet, to reform his religion into what final became the path of Adama. A idea I had after reading your comments, if it wouldn’t be interesting if the Imaskari, ascended into the Nine Immortals, helped Anu find enlightenment and end his suffering, as a compensation what them and their ancestors done to the Sky Deity.

The idea to tie Teylas to Anu, was because Anu in real life is theorized to be connected with Tengri, the chief Mongol/Turkish deity, and it really seems that the aliases of Teylas and Etugen were used by someone else before Akadi and Grumbar. Anu would fit, as he had a presence in this region, and there isn’t really a Sky Father in the Faerunian Pantheon, unless one makes a very large stretch, and counts Talos or Tyr. I got also inspired by this article
http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9909D&L=REALMS-L&P=R8239&D=0&I=-3
by Thomas M. Costa, were he also connected Anu and Adama, but done it a bit differently.

Edited by - Baltas on 16 May 2014 10:54:51

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 16 May 2014 : 11:20:32

Well the celestial dragon is the big guy in charge. I dont know who or what he may be but he is connected to Guge in some way so he may be some kind of ascended fey.

He may be an actual dragon that is so powerful he is practically godlike. There isnt much about him in the Hordelands book so any theories on him will have to wait.

What is clear that those beings who successfully complete this path to enlightenment end up as powerful immortal beings in service to him.

Some of those beings take the form of dragons, some take other forms. The storm riders adventure while being based on reincarnation stated that the greater dragon form was the highest that could be achieved so rather like the choirs of angels having a set of tiers with different forms for each i picture these servants taking forms based on their importance within the service to the celestial emperor.

It also appears that at some point in history the previous servants of the celestial dragon were ousted and replaced by the shou (the emperors being the first but others followed).

Since most of the path of enlightenment is based around the old kingdom of Guge i reckon the fey peoples that inhabited the area were his first set of servants (although what form their service took i dont know). Monkey, Dragon Claw, The Invisible Tigers, the Dalai Lama, all of these are probably from this old court of the celestial dragon. The giants in grey may also be from this old court of immortals.

Then the Shou arrive and discover the Path/Way and first they take over the temple dedicated to the Path/Way in Guge (Hordelands states this event and it sounds separate to the invasion of Guge). Then i reckon at least a few of the emperors of Shou successfully take the Path/Way and create the Celestial Bureaucracy.

With their protectors gone, Guge is in danger and so launches an attack on the lair of the celestial dragon (which must be accessed from Hollow Crown Mountain) but they lose and Guge is destroyed.

Tan Chin may have also tried to achieve the path but was barred because of his evil. However he achieved many of the stages and so becomes this unique immortal being (but not a greater dragon like the other emperors).

As for the Purple Dragon. I would think she was a member of the new celestial bureaucracy. She is immortal, very powerful but has links to Tan Chin, maybe she was a servant of his in the past and took the Path/Way in order to atone (and was successful) for any evils she did. However Tan Chin is all about secrets and lies (look at the city of Kuo Melian in the Black Courser) so i figure he is blackmailing the purple dragon into helping him.

Of course i need to read the Kara Tur boxed set so i can figure out who the Celestial Dragon might be. I dont think he is an actual god since the Imaskari hate gods and so would never pledge themselves to one.

I'm off to read Candlekeep Compendium IV now. Thanks for the info

Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1600 Posts

Posted - 16 May 2014 : 11:34:15

In the Kara-Tur 2e compendium there is this Celestial Dragon, but I wonder if the mention is to one specific, maybe even more powerful dragon.

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 16 May 2014 : 11:57:49

I think that refers to the dragon members of the celestial bureaucracy rather than the actual celestial dragon.

It states they are thought to be favoured servants of the celestial bureaucracy so i would guess they are the highest ranking members of the bureaucracy.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 16 May 2014 : 11:58:38

Interesting that i did not find this celestial dragon writeup in my version of the Kara-Tur monstrous compendium. Which book did this come from?

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 17 May 2014 : 14:07:19

I think it's from the Forgotten Realms Appendix to the Monstrous Compendium. Also, are the Celestial Dragon and Celestial Emperor one and the same in your version?

Edited by - Baltas on 17 May 2014 14:49:35

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 17 May 2014 : 15:11:06

Ah, I was looking in the kara tur appendix. I'll try the FR appendixes.
In all honesty I dont know where im headed with kara tur at the moment. When I read the kara tur books then I will figure out what their religion is but given the hints in the hordelands stuff they wont be actual gods.

Kara Tur never interested me until I read the hordelands stuff but now im hooked. It just needs a bit of fixing is all.

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 17 May 2014 : 15:26:38

Indeed the Hordelands materials really expand Kara-Tur, and connect it with the rest of the Toril, and give it a 'organic' feeling. The Horde Campaign book is one of the most underrated D&D books ever, I think.

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11701 Posts

Posted - 17 May 2014 : 16:33:05

The problem I had with the hordelands was more that many of the society's were essentially introverted and you couldn't see their interaction with each other much. You know, there was the society of assassins that kept to itself. Then there was the society of monkish folk (with a Dali Lama) in Ra-Khati who didn't leave their country. Then there was a society in the Hollow Crown Mountains (the Gugari) that's trying to keep itself hidden. It makes for great adventuring in that you can go into an area and mess it up and leave, but as a DM/lover or realmslore it kind of left me wanting.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 17 May 2014 : 20:51:18

Im getting a very big Conan the barbarian (the film) vibe from the hordelands area and I think the isolationist behaviour of nations and people in the area plays very well with this.
If u build the whole area around the Path/Way then imagine Tan Chin/Ambuchar in Solon as Thulsa Doom.
I imagine him deliberately leaving false clues about the path and then directing them towards Solon where they become slaves forever.

Im also thinking that Bhaals church kind of survives in the hordelands with its capital centred on sentinel spire and the old man.

The hordelands has a lot of potential for a very interesting alternative to the realms. One that is magic, civilisation, and technology lite very much like conan

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4211 Posts

Posted - 18 May 2014 : 04:50:50

To me, it has the feel of the areas in/around Turan, Kosala and Vendhya in Hyboria...I think you hit it spot on!

Semphar is even much like Iranistan...I love the whole area.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!

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