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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
 Posted - 20 May 2014 : 12:57:15
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I see that you made Tan Chin a bit into a Mara-like figure, which is interesting. Maybe you could make his true form a giant centipede, as they were sometimes thought in Chinese myth to be associated with a mockery of dragons, and often seen as demonic. I thought to add to my Kara-Tur and Hordelands campaign some undead, or native outsider beings based on Yurei, Evil Kami, and Hungry Ghosts, that are created when a person is kept in this world, often by powerful negative emotions. Something also kind of like the Unsent(http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Unsent) and fiends(http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Fiend_ Final_Fantasy_X ) from Final Fantasy X, who have such inspiration. I thought now also that Tan Chin could force people into transformation into such entities, that he would bound to serve him.
Sossrim are also quite interesting in many ways, like that they worship a good/neutral aspect of Auril(her persona before the corruption by Tharizdun?) and that they quite resemble Northmen physically, at least. Makes me wonder if they maybe didn't crossbreed with them over the ages, through some contact, or is it just an example of convergent evolution?
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Edited by - Baltas on 20 May 2014 13:21:59 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6354 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2014 : 14:37:32
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Tan Chin is basically a suel lich. I even connected him to the Suel Empire (from Greyhawk) in my homebrew stuff.
Unlike the Netherese, who mostly built enclaves on Toril, the Imasakari enjoyed building their enclaves on other worlds, pretending to be 'gods' and spreading their culture. In fact, the way I spin it, the Pharonic Pantheon were really just Archmages who attained deity status on various worlds, and eventually returned to Toril and started a ruckus (blending FR history with Stargate a bit). The Baklunish were one group of people so ruled over, for a time, and Tan Chin was one of their Imaskari governors.
Then, when the Netherese came into their own - and discovered the even more powerful Imaskari - they began a pogrom of uprisings in the Imaskari colonies (around the same time as that debacle in The Outlands). They backed the Suel on Oerth, who were an indigenous magical empire, which lead to the Great wars in Oerth's past, and the eventual destruction of Suel by the Baklunish (really Imaskari archmages/demi-gods). Tan Chin picked-up the Suel Lich knowledge during this conflict (distantly related to the Shade/Shadovar rituals), and brought shadow-magic back with him to Imaskar.
At a later date (and after much corruption from the shadow magic), the Imaskari had pushed their colonies (and their archmage gevernors) to the point of revolt. The Imaskari had managed to erect the Godwall to keep the conflict from spilling back onto Toril, but eventually that was bypassed, and the expatriate archmages (now 'gods') leveled Imaskar with the same ritual used against the Suel - the Rain of Colorless Fire (which may have even been an adaption of the earlier elven ritual of desecration used against the Miyeritari elves and created the High Moor).
As for Tan Chin, he fled before the final battle, probably into Tempat Lerang - which was the furthest southern province of Anok-Imaskar at that time (there is some history in Ronin Challenge which pertains to this - I think Governor Sangkal Chunbi (pg.66) was one of the MANY bodies Tan Chin 'borrowed').
I have him returning and ruling a reunited Shou Empire in Kara-Tur post-Spellplague (he took over the body of one of the twins in Tu-Lung... its a long story).
Almost all homebrew - but I believe that not only does FR history NOT 'happen in a vacuum', but that that should also apply to the D&D multiverse as well. Archmages are not limited to meddling on one world. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 May 2014 14:44:49 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6354 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2014 : 15:48:13
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Ambuchar Devyam was not just an alias (as stated in LEoF) of Tan Chin, but was an actual monk who purchased (IIRC) Solon (this is covered in the three Hordland modules).
So we have to assume poor Ambuchar tried to do the right thing, and during his rebuilding of Solon discovered/released the lich, who immediately took him over, and saw vast potential in having a monk body. You see, Suel Liches eventually burn-out their hosts, but a monk gets Diamond-body, which negates the aging affects.
My theory is that Tan Chin still keeps Ambuchar around - possibly imprisoned - as his 'permanent host'. During his time in Solon, he took long 'vacations' from Ambuchar's body, which lead to the inhabitants thinking he was a bit nuts (bi-polar). Ambuchar may or may not have been aware of the lich's control, and was still trying to rule Solon correctly: Solon has a long anti-dragon history - see the Wyrmbane Helm entry on pg.104 of Dragon Magic. That shoe-horns perfectly with Tan Chin's own interactions with the purple dragon Gaumahavi.
This actually helps us cover-up a lot of the inconsistencies in the history of the region (because Tan-Chin would jump in and out of various people). During his time as Ambuchar, the Monk continued his training and eventually reached level 20 (and thus gaining the Diamond Body ability that Tan Chin wanted). We (those of us who were working on a K-T update awhile back) had determined that the surname 'Devyam' was actual a title Tan chin took for himself after he possessed the Monk (something along the lines of 'god king' in in an eastern tongue). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 May 2014 15:49:44 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6354 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2014 : 16:27:54
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It was in the threads we were doing over on the WotC forums a long time ago (now). One was the Kara-Tur revisited thread, and the other was the Utter East thread. The Utter East thread had more 'deep research', thanks to a couple of people who were amazing at digging up that sort of stuff (not me - nearly all of this was pointed out to me). What started out as some bare-bones lore became fully fleshed-out because of those guys.
Tan Chin's history is.... complicated. Sometimes he's 'the good guy' (mostly in the 'official histories' of Shou Lung), other times he sort of neutral, and still others he is 'evil incarnate'. He seems to have had an on-going conflict with the Black Panther, who is a another personage/ demi-power/organization that is very ambiguous in the lore. I think Tan Chin is actually a 'good guy' in his own mind. He wants to rule because he thinks he is best suited for it (and in some ways, perhaps he is right). He strikes me more as a 'Doctor Doom' type, or even a Magneto. He does what he must, "for the greater' good (which often means committing atrocities). He also has created at least two armies of automatons (Golems? Warforged?), making him VERY interesting indeed. This is why we speculated he may have gotten his hands on a Bloodforge (from the Utter East material).
As for the Black Panther - I peg him as Vibhishana, an incredibly rare, good-hearted Rakshasa. Since we (canonically) have the Vedic pantheon nearby (just south of Tu-Lung in Malatra), its not that much of a stretch. I have a whole history for him and the Rakshasa of FR as well, tied to Zakhara... but thats another story. I feel a LOT of of 'Earth Mythology' is actually Torillian history, which is the most basic premise of The Forgotten Realms. They don't borrow from us, we remember them.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 May 2014 16:29:10 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2014 : 16:35:30
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Found what I was looking for - the Black Panther's name is Bauhei in The Realms. It is listed in his only detailed write-up in Mad monkey vs Dragon Claw OA5, TSR9242, on pg.53.
Interestingly, just looking at the pics (and reading) in that section gives me other ideas; Lung Jua looks like he could be related to Druaga!
P.S. I have six FR PDF's open at the moment thanks to you, and truly, THANK YOU for that. I almost forgot how much fun this was. 
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 May 2014 16:37:32 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6354 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2014 : 17:19:04
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I had copied most of it into my notes, but thats all gone now.
Yes, WotC demolishing their website (at least twice since the introduction of 4e) destroyed so many great threads and much homebrew lore. I think that horrific Gleemax thing was just one more nail in that coffin (people were so angry so much great stuff had been lost).
But whatever. Whats done is done. I am now looking forward to a new era. I even already have my next campaign all planned out using the 5e rules! |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2014 : 18:29:59
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I glad our simple musings(with of corse the lead of dazzlerdal) gave you fun Mark!
I think that Tan Chin might've transcended the normal Suel Lich state, maybe achieving a partial/false 'enlightment'/ascension into Padhrasattvahood, maybe even through poor Ambuchar. Becoming to something like Anubis' partial ascension in Stargate. I'm drawing here both from your's and dazzlerdal's conclusions, but I think they can be recoiled.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6354 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2014 : 20:30:50
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I have the Celestial Emperor as the same Indra, from Malatra. The Jade Emperor is in Buddism connected to Sakra/Sakka, also called Indra, and is the king of Deva. I have that Indra(who is a goddess on Toril) is the Emperors Yin, the chaotic, feminine side, and his Celestial Emperor persona(also known as Sakra) is the Yang, the ordered, male aspect of his/hers being. Yama, Indra’s ‘brother’, is a being who was helped by the Emperor in achieving enlightenment before even the Nine Immortals, but they latter had a quarrel. Yama(known in Shou Lung as Yen-Lo-Wang, and as Enma in Wa and Kozakura), is because of this, a kind of border member of the Celestial Bureaucracy, but still tasked with handling petitioners. I thought now after writting and reading this thread, that maybe the Emperor was originally Serpens/T’ien Lung, who as, one of masks used among humanity, was a great male emperor, and was later deified by his/her's subjects, and kept this latter a her main appearance when dealing with mortals, and many other beings.
[edit]
Also, yeah the forum deletion by WOTC was horrible, so many interesting ideas lost. I remember one thread that had an setting with Faerun dominated by an Amuanator monotheism, with other deities degraded to lesser spirits under him, or demons; another that had a brilliant merger of Oerth and Middle earth; and an theogony for the gods of Greyhawk. All of that lost because of wizbro's incompetence.
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Edited by - Baltas on 20 May 2014 21:03:01 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2014 : 01:36:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Tan Chin is basically a suel lich. I even connected him to the Suel Empire (from Greyhawk) in my homebrew stuff.
Unlike the Netherese, who mostly built enclaves on Toril, the Imasakari enjoyed building their enclaves on other worlds, pretending to be 'gods' and spreading their culture. In fact, the way I spin it, the Pharonic Pantheon were really just Archmages who attained deity status on various worlds, and eventually returned to Toril and started a ruckus (blending FR history with Stargate a bit). The Baklunish were one group of people so ruled over, for a time, and Tan Chin was one of their Imaskari governors.
Then, when the Netherese came into their own - and discovered the even more powerful Imaskari - they began a pogrom of uprisings in the Imaskari colonies (around the same time as that debacle in The Outlands). They backed the Suel on Oerth, who were an indigenous magical empire, which lead to the Great wars in Oerth's past, and the eventual destruction of Suel by the Baklunish (really Imaskari archmages/demi-gods). Tan Chin picked-up the Suel Lich knowledge during this conflict (distantly related to the Shade/Shadovar rituals), and brought shadow-magic back with him to Imaskar.
At a later date (and after much corruption from the shadow magic), the Imaskari had pushed their colonies (and their archmage gevernors) to the point of revolt. The Imaskari had managed to erect the Godwall to keep the conflict from spilling back onto Toril, but eventually that was bypassed, and the expatriate archmages (now 'gods') leveled Imaskar with the same ritual used against the Suel - the Rain of Colorless Fire (which may have even been an adaption of the earlier elven ritual of desecration used against the Miyeritari elves and created the High Moor).
As for Tan Chin, he fled before the final battle, probably into Tempat Lerang - which was the furthest southern province of Anok-Imaskar at that time (there is some history in Ronin Challenge which pertains to this - I think Governor Sangkal Chunbi (pg.66) was one of the MANY bodies Tan Chin 'borrowed').
I have him returning and ruling a reunited Shou Empire in Kara-Tur post-Spellplague (he took over the body of one of the twins in Tu-Lung... its a long story).
Almost all homebrew - but I believe that not only does FR history NOT 'happen in a vacuum', but that that should also apply to the D&D multiverse as well. Archmages are not limited to meddling on one world.
I somewhat like this idea. I'd prefer it be that the "Mulan" Pantheon still be actual deities from a conquered people, just to keep things more canon. However, I'd prefer it be that these outlying Imaskari colonies eventually draw the ire of deities from different worlds. However, these deities are drawn together by the fact that these colonies from other worlds use portals that effectively make the worlds close. This portal network pisses off Ptah for some reason, and he begins aiding the various worlds cultures to overthrow the outlying Imaskari presences. This could explain one culture having more Egyptian, one having more Babylonian, and another having more Sumerian influences.
The linking of the Suel & the Rain of Colorless Fire works well with this at a glance. The question can also be that the Imaskari may have met other arcane societies (say the Suel) and the two societies mutually benefited and shared ideas (and possibly interbred). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2014 : 09:57:42
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Well, technically, both versions, the one with Mulan Gods being real interloper gods, and that with them as ascended Imaskari have a foundation in canon. In the Old Empires source book, the history section opens with such text:
"Toward the end of the previous age, tribes of humans were pushed out of the Great Kingdoms of the southeast,
which were covered in desert. Legends speak of a great war in which powerful
humans fought against the gods to wrest away their power. The humans
won and became god-kings, but the war
destroyed their kingdoms. These god-kings, Re and Enlil, led the shattered remnants of their peoples into Mulhorand and Unther. The two god-kings
and their spouses became the leaders of the royal houses of these two nations"
Of course it's an old overwritten canon, but still interesting isn't it?
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I'm actually leaning towards Tan Chin, Monkey, Dragon Claw, Black Leopard, Dalai Lama, maybe a few others being the Nine Travellers.
dazzlerdal, I now noticed that my version of Yama could fit into the Nine Travelers, at least your version. Also, I noticed the name of Empress of proto-Shou Lung that was murdered by Tan Chin, was Kwan Ying, just like one of the Nine Immortals, I wonder if it has some significance... |
Edited by - Baltas on 21 May 2014 09:59:56 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6354 Posts |
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The Hordelands
