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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Jun 2014 : 18:24:37
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| Dazzlerdal, you're not alone in thinking that the Tyranny of Dragons storyline is poorly researched. The excuse that the Cult of the Dragon has lore ties to Tiamat is tenuous at best. The Spellplague had tenuous ties to prior lore and we all know how well that went over with the fan base. Having the CotD venerate LIVING dragons completely changes the character of this organization, and does not align at all with the goal of having the 5th-Edition Realms feel like the Realms of old. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2014 : 21:33:50
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Well their explanation needs to be very good because the Church of Tiamat was not particularly big to start with and most of it was centred around Unther (with a single cathedral under Vaasa I don't know of any other temples, shrines, or other places of worship to Tiamat elsewhere).
So as of 1368-74 DR the cult of the dragon are being slightly infiltrated by the church of Tiamat. The cult of the dragon are fighting back by killing any infiltrators they find (or revealing their exploits to the Harpers).
138+ we have the spellplague and from what I understand the Old Empires region goes poof along with an awful lot of Tiamat's clergy and hierarchy.
Now the Spellplague I also understand affected magic users severely so there is the possibility that the powerful necromancers that provided most of the magical might (and dominated the upper levels of the cult) were so badly affected that they all died out. In those circumstances I believe that they might have turned to religion to fill the void, or they would have tried to expand their crime activities which made most of their money.
If they did turn to religion then why would it be the Church of Tiamat if she suffered badly during the Spellplague? Surely they would turn to Bane or Gargauth (who Algashon was interested in). And yes the Sembian cell was just one cell, but it was the largest, richest, and most important, and its headquarters was finished in the Well of Dragons which straddled the Western Heartlands area and so would have allowed it control over cells in Sembia and the Western Heartlands making it by far the most influential cell in the entire cult.
And depending upon when they have Tiamat imprisoned will also affect their explanation for why the Cult of the Dragon was converted. If she was imprisoned shortly after 138+ then they shoot themselves in the foot because she most likely would not be able to provide spells and so the cult definitely would not convert to the religion of a god that was impotent.
Plus 4th edition cult of the dragon writeup makes no mention of an affiliation with Tiamat (although that book should rightfully be ignored).
They are going to have to come up with an excellent explanation for the sudden shift in focus for this organisation to make it credible (for me anyway). And if they don't then its 4th edition all over again where they make changes just for the sake of it being cool without doing their research properly (or they don't care to do research).
Why use the Cult of the Dragon as a Tiamat worshipping organisation that had plenty of draconic members when they could have just used the Church of Tiamat.
And then there are all the other problems people have mentioned. It just doesn't look promising. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2014 : 06:32:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Dazzlerdal, you're not alone in thinking that the Tyranny of Dragons storyline is poorly researched. The excuse that the Cult of the Dragon has lore ties to Tiamat is tenuous at best. The Spellplague had tenuous ties to prior lore and we all know how well that went over with the fan base.
I don't think this is any kind of valid comparison. We have references to Tiamat being interested in the Cult going back to 2E, in at least two sources that I can immediately think of -- The Cult of the Dragon being one of them, another being her entry in Powers & Pantheons. So the most definitive sources on both the Cult and Tiamat have her interested in the Cult -- how is this tenuous?
The Spellplague, on the other hand, was built on vague, non-specific references and a flat-out retcon.
That's not even apples and oranges, it's apples and bowling balls. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2014 : 12:31:05
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| I'm not that thrilled with this direction for the cult of the dragon either, but what I'm more interested in understanding is Tiamat's apparent imprisonment in the Hells for millennia. That seems to be completely at odds with prior lore, and when that is one of the cornerstones of this adventure, and the other is a reimagining of one of the iconic groups of villains in the Realms, I find myself already thinking 'here we go again'. |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2014 : 19:36:11
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| No, the whole Tiamat in the Hells thing is so that fans of other campaign settings can identify with it. As I stated on the first page of this thread, Tiamat's lair in the FR setting hasn't been on Baator since 1371 DR, however, it has been in every other campaign setting that includes Tiamat as a deity. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Great Reader
United Kingdom
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2014 : 05:26:04
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I still want to know how it is a massive change that goes against the lore when it is clearly built on prior lore. The most definitive sources we have for the Cult and Tiamat both say she is interested in the Cult and wants to take it over. And the most definitive source on the Cult doesn't say a word about eschewing religion, refers to clerics at all levels of Cult membership -- including among the Wearers of the Purple -- and mentions that there were already priests of Tiamat within the Cult. This all goes back to 2E.
Honestly, I'd be more incredulous to read that the Cult had remained static for the last century and was exactly the same. |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2014 : 06:53:27
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I don't mind change as long as its well thought out and explained thoroughly. I am not an idiot and so when someone comes along and says the evil crime syndicate suddenly changed into a banking union I want an explanation, and it needs to be credible.
What if the banking union was always an evil crime syndicate that hide it really well, so much even they started to think it was true. I think the public in real life are looking for just that explanation, to borrow an example from current events.
Back on topic. I always found the motivation of the Cult of the Dragon quite whimsy flimsy. Like all cults, much of their cohesion and impetus stems from their charismatic and powerful leader. Sammaster had the ex-chosen backstory going and a plan so crazy it was just crazy, but that's a cult leader for you.
Once he was taken out of the picture, you really start to realize the Cult is less interesting that it seemed. The hype was all due to the prestige of its leader. Sure we have a few other interesting character, but few approach Sammaster levels on the insano-meter.
Then we can go about this one of two ways. Create a copy cat character, a Sammaster Jr or 2.0, to keep the machine going. Real cults do this, the prophet's son/daughter/protege just so happen, don't you know, is also a prophet. Doesn't always work. Especially seeing as we're not cultist and we see the man behind the curtain (meta-game knowledge), and Sammaster is a hard act to follow.
The other option is to change up the story a bit, stir up the status quo to refresh the concept. This is what they're doing.
Now they could flip the book at the fans and say that's it, but at least here there's mention of an old guard who may not agree with the new guard. With 4E Wizards would have just dropped Flumph You bombs and we indeed had entire worlds created out of nothing and plopped on nation scale areas.
This is indeed about as much of a change as Mulhorand invading Unther or the Harper schism. One faction of the Cult won out over the others sometime over the last century, while pockets of the old cult remain. That's quite generous after a century.
Considering for the religious members, their dogma is their life. For the pragmatic members, I'm not sure what they were in the cult for. They're not fanatical enough and too pragmatic to really go along with the dracolich plan. With Sammaster gone and the dracolich plan with him, it may be easier to leave the crazy cult to the crazy cultist if they had trouble converting the organization to their will. They are pragmatists after all. Why throw money and effort after a bad bet, that could risk their lives in the process to fill the power vacuum.
If we wanted this to be "realistic". The Cult should have been adopted as the official religion of a major empire after centuries of persecution. Then split into numerous denominations and have at least one major branch founded say six centuries later. Et cetera, et cetera. I think you get my point without having to name names.
Factions in organizations shift all the time. We sure as day even see it in minor things like office politics and policies re-prioritized with shifting managers coming in or out. Then why not the Cult of the Dragon with
- No hard wired dogma of its own. (As we've seen in real life, even religions schism based on leadership.)
- A power vacuum after the departure of an influential leader.
- Who always had a silly plan that never really made sense in the first place, but he made it work.
- Existing factionalism within the ranks, long documented history of it in fact.
- The winning faction already shown to have strong interest from their benefactor.
- A century since we've last had solid info on the group.
Indeed, it would be silly if the Cult was exactly the same with some spiritual clone of Sammaster running the show.
Now if Sammaster had contingencies planned that somehow orchestrated his return with the events of these adventures, that's an explanation for the record books. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2014 : 08:53:17
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Well apart from the 8 quotes about a lack of or dislike of organised religion i'm not sure what else you are looking for. There is an entire section in the Cult of the Dragon book devoted to describing what they do to infiltrators from the Church of Tiamat but its too big to copy, and it definitely shows a dislike for religion there too. I can't find any quotes that say they are embracing religion, only ones saying they dont like their cult to be associated with religious worship.
Now if the plot hook had been used in 1380 then i am all for the Church of Tiamat taking over. In 1365 Alasklerbanbastos ruled most of Chessenta and Unther (through draconic vassals), and he was also in charge of the Cult of the Dragon cells in Unther (he created them and so given his personality he would retain overall authority over the ranking leader of each cell - thats how he controlled Unther and Chessenta, through vassals).
He also allied his Cult of the Dragon cells to the Church of Tiamat and as Dragons of Faerun stated, this prevented him from taking over the Sembian cell in the wake of Sammaster's destruction.
Now in 1371/2 - 1374/5 we have the Mulhorandi conquest of Unther and the return of Tchazzar. This destroys Alasklerbanbastos' Dragon Empire but his Cult of the Dragon cells are still intact one would presume.
Therefore at some point after that it is likely there would be a schism between the northern Sembian owned branch of the Cult of the Dragon, and the southern Alasklerbanbastos owned branch of the Cult of the Dragon. In fact i am using just such a storyline in my own campaign, because it is entirely feasible and in line with the current lore.
During this conflict it is likely the Cult of the Dragon would turn to Bane or Gargauth (whatever Algashon decides to worship) for a bit of extra muscle, and whichever side wins the conflict will determine what religion the Cult is allied to for the next 50-100 years. Or the Cult would eschew religion entirely once again and maybe come to be dominated by the more criminal elements and depending on how many dracoliches remain it might lose the dracolich worshipping thing altogether and become a regular crime syndicate.
However in the canon realms the spellplague happens. Mulhorand, Unther and the entire population disappear overnight. That means probably 60% of the Church of Tiamat is gone, (it was never big in the first place) and all of Alasklerbanbastos' remaining allies go with it.
So now Alasklerbanbastos has absolutely no hope of winning a faction war with the northern branch of the Cult of the Dragon who own the Well of Dragons, have ties to the government of Sembia and have 2 very powerful dracoliches in charge, as well most likely having the allegiance of every Cult of the Dragon cell in the Western Heartlands.
And from what people say Alasklerbanbastos dies anyway.
The Cult of the Dragon has always been a cult of personality as people have said, and very often that personality was whatever the oldest nearby dracolich was. Without Alasklerbanbastos the Untheric cells of the Cult of the Dragon would collapse (as happened before when Alasklerbanbastos retreated into somnolence - after a war with the church of Tiamat of all people).
Plus Unther, Mulhorand, and Chessenta i think get filled up with Dragonborn who are very much anti-dragon. They are not going to like an undead dragon (or even converted to Tiamat's worship - real dragon) worshipping cult in their midst, and most dragonborn tend to worship Bahamut so i cant see the Church of Tiamat or the Cult of the Dragon doing very well in those regions.
Yes there is lore for the Cult of the Dragon joining with the Church of Tiamat. It just no longer applies because of the stupid changes they made to the realms during the spellplague. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2014 : 11:03:40
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well apart from the 8 quotes about a lack of or dislike of organised religion i'm not sure what else you are looking for. There is an entire section in the Cult of the Dragon book devoted to describing what they do to infiltrators from the Church of Tiamat but its too big to copy, and it definitely shows a dislike for religion there too. I can't find any quotes that say they are embracing religion, only ones saying they dont like their cult to be associated with religious worship.
But the quotes you provided did not show a dislike for religion, since there were religious members and even religious leaders. You showed that religious people are a minority, certainly, but not that there was any institutional bias against religion.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Yes there is lore for the Cult of the Dragon joining with the Church of Tiamat. It just no longer applies because of the stupid changes they made to the realms during the spellplague.
I don't see how the Spellplague is a factor. There were a lot more cells than just the ones in Sembia and the Old Empires, and the loss of a single dracolich isn't going to dramatically tip the scales one way or another, as Shandril proved. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2014 : 12:24:30
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I know this is just hope beyond hope, but has anyone but me ever wished that Sardior the Ruby Dragon had more of a presence in the Realms? Tyranny of Dragons would be such a great place to have him make an appearance.
Way back, there was also another three headed dragon described in some online content (I think they were called the "Mind's Eye" articles) called Blitzen. Each head was a different gem dragon. |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2014 : 15:48:05
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| Yeah, Sardior was to gem dragons what Bahamut was to metallics and Tiamat was to chromatics. To my knowledge though, Sardior has only appeared in Al-Qadim lore in relation to the Forgotten Realms. He's never had any known influence on Faerun. |
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Edited by - hashimashadoo on 23 Jun 2014 15:52:31 |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2014 : 21:40:53
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quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
Yeah, Sardior was to gem dragons what Bahamut was to metallics and Tiamat was to chromatics. To my knowledge though, Sardior has only appeared in Al-Qadim lore in relation to the Forgotten Realms. He's never had any known influence on Faerun.
Oh no kidding? I didn't realize he was ever mentioned in FR lore. I would love to look that up even though there is likely not a ton of info.
Dragon 260 also had an article called "Spawn of Tiamat, Children of Bahamut" which had some other ultra powerful alpha dragons. I'd love to find that magazine in my collection somewhere... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2014 : 05:17:12
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well i see institutional bias in at least three of the quotes i posted. Reducing religious observances, moving away from religious affiliation, and the dracoliches mistrusting Algashon because of his efforts to bring them into the church of Bane.
Not that i expect to be able to sway anyone elses opinions. Short of a quote saying "The Cult of the Dragon will always hate the Church of Tiamat forever and ever and ever." I have little more backing my opinion than anyone else.
Your reading of those quotes shows an institutional bias. When I read my sourcebooks and see repeated references to priests within the Cult, and that one of the Cult's leaders is a priest, I have a hard time seeing where this bias is.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I figure 8 quotes that have a negative slant towards religion (plus many more in the sourcebooks) is enough to form the conclusion i made, especially without an equal number of quotes that are positive towards religion. The Cult of the Dragon sourcebook certainly makes out they are actively resisting Tiamat's infiltration into their organisation (shopping a Tiamatan to the Harpers is not a nice thing to do), and there have been historic clashes between the Cult and the Church in Mourktar and Surkh. So its not as though the two organisations are buxom buddies, or indeed receptive to one another (except in Unther which is entirely due to Alasklerbanbastos' influence).
I don't need an equal number of quotes. I don't see the conclusion that you are reaching, and you've not explained how there is a priest among the Wearers of the Purple if there is this bias, nor the numbers of priestly members.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
If they give an excellent explanation then i will eat my hat (waving a hand and saying that god did it does not qualify), but i'm pretty certain there will be a two line sentence detailing the change in the Cult of the Dragon before it goes off to show all the cool stuff thats really cool and interesting and cool.
At this time, you are basing all of your opposition to this RSE on two lines: the blurb we have that says it's coming. I've taken fire on this more than once before, but I remain firm in believing that a person cannot make an informed decision without information.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
The Dracorage had a number of problems as an RSE (killing another iconic character, elves creating a mythal centred on an object that could be destroyed, no lasting effect anywhere in the realms despite the use of hundreds of immensely powerful monsters), but thats nothing compared to the errors in this RSE.
When we have both read this adventure cover to cover, I will gladly discuss any errors that may or may not be in there. Until I have read it, I am not assuming anything -- especially not the worst.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I guess i still havent gotten over the spellplague after all this time and i dont think im going to get over this either.
I guess this is a difference between you and I. I hated the Spellplague, too... But I see an entirely new design team, working with Ed and trying to smooth over the bad things and get the Realms to what it was. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, instead of holding the actions of their former teammates against them. |
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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2014 : 14:14:37
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I don't know if you guys are aware, but Kobold Press has started to post a series of articles called Tiamat Tuesdays concerning Tyranny of Dragons. Thus far there's four articles, and the latest two directly concern the adventure. Here's the link to the page with the articles:
http://www.koboldpress.com/k/tag/tyranny-of-dragons
The first article, chronologically, deals with the Cult of the Dragon's transformation from dracolich-lovers to Tiamat-worshippers. Notably, the article strongly implies that not all cultists are happy with the change, and that the PCs might even ally with some members of the Cult's "old guard."
The second article concerns Rise of Tiamat. The part I thought most exciting is that KP says politics will be a part of this adventure, as the PCs have to forge a military alliance between traditionally opposed groups. This army will battle the Cult's own army, including its dragons and other allies, while the PCs go and disrupt the ritual or whatever the cultists are doing to bring Tiamat into the Realms.
Hopefully there will be another article on Tuesday... |
Edited by - Krafus on 29 Jun 2014 14:15:39 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2014 : 14:20:03
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| Interesting, but it doesn't say anything about how the Tiamat faction came on top, it simply states that it did. Maybe the adventure itself will clarify. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2014 : 14:43:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Interesting, but it doesn't say anything about how the Tiamat faction came on top, it simply states that it did. Maybe the adventure itself will clarify.
Or perhaps a future article will cover it. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2014 : 14:43:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
I don't know if you guys are aware, but Kobold Press has started to post a series of articles called Tiamat Tuesdays concerning Tyranny of Dragons. Thus far there's four articles, and the latest two directly concern the adventure. Here's the link to the page with the articles:
http://www.koboldpress.com/k/tag/tyranny-of-dragons
The first article, chronologically, deals with the Cult of the Dragon's transformation from dracolich-lovers to Tiamat-worshippers. Notably, the article strongly implies that not all cultists are happy with the change, and that the PCs might even ally with some members of the Cult's "old guard."
The second article concerns Rise of Tiamat. The part I thought most exciting is that KP says politics will be a part of this adventure, as the PCs have to forge a military alliance between traditionally opposed groups. This army will battle the Cult's own army, including its dragons and other allies, while the PCs go and disrupt the ritual or whatever the cultists are doing to bring Tiamat into the Realms.
Hopefully there will be another article on Tuesday...
Thanks for sharing that link. I rarely get to that site, so I was not aware of that content. |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2014 : 17:53:16
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I did comment on the issue of Tiamat's imprisonment and Wolfgang Baur got back to me saying:
"Ah, but the canon we were given by Wizards of the Coast was that she is imprisoned. It was the premise provided by Wizards, and Kobold Press really isn’t in a position to dictate canon to the Wizards team." |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2014 : 18:23:41
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I'm excited about the Tyranny of Dragons, because I love pretty much everything involving dragons. However, I hope they have a good explanation for the background story we've been given. Tiamat's imprisonment in the Nine Hells doesn't fit with anything we've been told in 4e. Tiamat serves the Black Hand in Banehold, and I don't see how Asmodeus would have managed to snatch her from Bane's grasp. More likely, another archdevil is the culprit. I could see Glasya or Levistus seeking to drain Tiamat's power and overthrow the King of the Hells. Even so, making an enemy of Bane seems unwise.
Also, there is the issue of Tiamat's cultists taking over the Cult of the Dragon. I'm fine with the group's new direction, but how did Tiamat's clergy manage to stage this bold coup with their goddess's power diminished and the goddess herself held captive?
I want to just randomly throw in that the YUANTI (and other serpentfolk) are criminally underused. Can we please get a sequel to Venom in Her Veins, and an increased snake presence in 5e? |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2014 : 19:01:23
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| I'm uncertain how WotC could have made such a mistake (stating Tiamat had been languishing for centuries), their own most recent write ups for her contradict that statement. Seeing the first big rollout of FR material for 5e be either a retcon or a fairly major lore screw up is not filling me with enormous confidence. I don't want to be too negative but is there any other explanation for Tiamat having languished in the Hells for millennia other than a retcon or major error? |
Edited by - idilippy on 29 Jun 2014 19:02:03 |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2014 : 23:55:10
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| I don't mind not getting an explanation as to how the Church of Tiamat took over the Cult. After all, AFAIK we never got an answer as to how Sammaster returned in the Year of Rogue Dragons trilogy (or what he did with those who led the Cult before his return), so it wouldn't be the first time some major event involving the Cult went unexplained. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2014 : 02:45:08
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Wait for the Tyranny of Dragons novels ...
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Tyranny of Dragons
