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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Jun 2014 : 21:55:08
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Not to harmstring your great rewriting efforts but i see a good number of ways in which the Dracorage Mythal could be placed in the Novularonds without much explanation issues:
1) While the giants were occupied with the dragons on the borders of the Colossal Kingdom (it's kinda hard for great wyrms to sneak in undetected especially after a thousand years of war in which the giants surely developed special anti-dragon spells, items, weapons, alarms and whatnot), the elves sneak into the Novularonds and use their considerable High Magic might (probably at the height of their power when internecine war and fragmentation due to colonization haven't yet divided all their High Mages) to do what they please with the dragons' minds;
2) The elves already had the city in the Novularonds (the sources i have contradict themselves, in the GHotR it's said the Dracorage Mythal was created in a "newly built citadel" while Dragons of Faerun states that the Dracorage Mythal was created in an "ancient citadel", the first elves arrived 2000 years prior), hidden with High Magic and a standard mythal (like the invisible city in the Forest of Mir that teleports any non-elf and non-gnome approaching to the other edge of the city) or other mundane means and when the dragons started winning their war with the giants they stepped up the game with the Dracorage Mythal revealing themselves;
3) The elves were allies to the giants of the Colossal Kingdom (ruled by storm and cloud giants if i'm not mistaken, so honorable and good folk, not brutish evildoers like hill, fire or frost giants and after all the elves were sent to Toril to stop the dragons so "the enemy of my enemy ...") so to lay down their master plan they constructed the citadel in the middle of the giant kingdom so that the strenght of the giants could protect it while the elves alone probably wouldn't have sufficed and the High Magic of the elves provided the giants the edge they needed to survive some centuries more (only to be slowly supplanted by "lesser" humanoid races); |
Edited by - Demzer on 24 Jun 2014 21:55:37 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2014 : 00:33:53
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| It could have also had something to do with the specific location. Perhaps a bunch of ley lines converged there, or maybe there was some sort of node of magical energy (or High Magic) right there, or something along those lines. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2014 : 02:44:10
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As far as rewriting into the Star Mounts, there are a couple big draconic problems there, but presuming that the elves of the High Forest were able to pull that off I think it is a nice remote location. I have also relocated a plot or two to that location without much difficulty.
In the old works where mythals were mysterious and the actual working of their magic left to DMs and players an object was never described. The first solid instance of that I know of was from the Return of the Archwizards and the Mythal of Evereska. The Rogue Dragon books used it as well and then finally the Last Mythal books broadened the idea. Personally I have no problem with it, though I agree that it is not entirely necessary. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2014 : 10:19:16
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The location of the dracorage mythal wasn't so much about being close and defensible but about being hidden so hopefully no one never finds out it even exists.
Because if the dragons would have known about it, they would have united to destroy it. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2014 : 11:33:29
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| Yes that rings a bell, that there was such a battle, even though I don't fully remember it. But I doubt that all of dragonkind knew about this, because how could they forget something important again? |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2014 : 12:49:59
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The loss of knowledge after the downfall of the roman empire was knowledge only the romans possesed but not the people invading them form the north and east and nothing their life and death depended on like the dracorage mythal.
So I guess its plausible that a (large?) group of dragons got knowledge on the mythal and attacked it. Maybe they even tried to spread this information but others didn't believe them. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2014 : 11:25:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Not to harmstring your great rewriting efforts but i see a good number of ways in which the Dracorage Mythal could be placed in the Novularonds without much explanation issues:
1) While the giants were occupied with the dragons on the borders of the Colossal Kingdom (it's kinda hard for great wyrms to sneak in undetected especially after a thousand years of war in which the giants surely developed special anti-dragon spells, items, weapons, alarms and whatnot), the elves sneak into the Novularonds and use their considerable High Magic might (probably at the height of their power when internecine war and fragmentation due to colonization haven't yet divided all their High Mages) to do what they please with the dragons' minds;
2) The elves already had the city in the Novularonds (the sources i have contradict themselves, in the GHotR it's said the Dracorage Mythal was created in a "newly built citadel" while Dragons of Faerun states that the Dracorage Mythal was created in an "ancient citadel", the first elves arrived 2000 years prior), hidden with High Magic and a standard mythal (like the invisible city in the Forest of Mir that teleports any non-elf and non-gnome approaching to the other edge of the city) or other mundane means and when the dragons started winning their war with the giants they stepped up the game with the Dracorage Mythal revealing themselves;
3) The elves were allies to the giants of the Colossal Kingdom (ruled by storm and cloud giants if i'm not mistaken, so honorable and good folk, not brutish evildoers like hill, fire or frost giants and after all the elves were sent to Toril to stop the dragons so "the enemy of my enemy ...") so to lay down their master plan they constructed the citadel in the middle of the giant kingdom so that the strenght of the giants could protect it while the elves alone probably wouldn't have sufficed and the High Magic of the elves provided the giants the edge they needed to survive some centuries more (only to be slowly supplanted by "lesser" humanoid races);
Which is kind of dovetails into one another:
What people do when they have foes whom they can't fight on their own? Right, they play "enemy of my enemy".
How the elves could help the giants without leaving too much of a trace leading anywhere in particular? Doing what they do well: enchantments, scouting and magical communication.
And if they supply giants with dragon-fighting equipment and stealth jobs, they would constantly keep representatives / magical communication mouthpieces / early warning posts around there, thus when they want to pull some other trick, their very presence won't give away anything.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
One of the myths begins with all dragons were originally red. Then we have myths that dragons were created by Asgoroth and also that they evolved from lesser draco-form creatures.
That's what those arrogant reds say. 
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well you certainly could come up with reasoning as to why the elves built an incredibly important stronghold so far away from their power base
[...]
I myself no longer care for canon when it is weak. I have found a location in the heart of elven lands. It is very defensible.
The whole point is that before the first Dracorage nothing was very defensible.
quote:
It has a mountain which is aptly named "Travellers Star". And it has a portal atop it that can only be activated by full moon light which could take the person to the location of the mythal. Now that is a good location for an ancient citadel no one has found in millennia.
Glorious. A small location to which the dragons would actually pay attention due to it being a ruined Aearee place. In the heart of the elven lands (to whatever degree it could be called so back then). With such a name. And at this point they could as well write "this way to the Dragon-exterminating mythal ->" with bright paint over it. 
quote:
Of course my other big beef is the fact that the elves tied a mythal to an object. That sounds like something a human (Netherese) would do, but not an elf. They tie their magic to the land itself.
Evereska? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2014 : 14:34:21
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I actually do agree with Dazzlerdal on one thing: the tying of the mythal to an object. In 2E, we didn't have any references at all to there being a physical object at the heart of a mythal. That was something introduced as a plot device in 3E, with the regrettable Return of the Archwizards trilogy. All the other writers that used mythals stuck with that concept
I don't like the idea of physical keystones to mythals, and I wish they'd never come up with that idea. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2014 : 14:52:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I actually do agree with Dazzlerdal on one thing: the tying of the mythal to an object. In 2E, we didn't have any references at all to there being a physical object at the heart of a mythal. That was something introduced as a plot device in 3E, with the regrettable Return of the Archwizards trilogy. All the other writers that used mythals stuck with that concept
Well, yes.
I'm not saying that it's an unquestionably good idea, but it was not unprecedented. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2014 : 12:53:14
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| What I meant about the Star mounts was this: there are ALWAYS dragons there, be it in "Evermeet's" ancient histories, newer tales, the dragon supplements, or all of the North/High Forest works there are dragons in the Star Mounts. And usually they are big ancient dragons who go where no one else dare. To me that seems like a BAD place to hide something from dragons. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2014 : 13:15:40
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| As for tying mythals to objects - I agree. I much preferred them being independent. The only mythal I've written up has no such focal stone. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2014 : 08:16:46
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
It can be no coincidence that the war between the dragons and Ostoria ended at the same time as the elves raised the mythal.
Well, of course. The war is called on account of one combatant failing to start the next attack due to being reduced to drooling idiocy.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
The Aarakocra are stated as "once dwelt in great numbers among the central Star Mounts." Now they are almost all gone thanks to one dragon so one can assume they prospered in a time when dragons were absent.
[...]The crystals are said to be dwellings or fortresses and are believed to be created by the elves of Eaerlann. One dragon is mentioned establishing a lair on the mountains only after the nation of Eaerlann collapsed.
That, too - lots of warlike elven spellhurlers. Eaerlann was founded circa -4700 and destroyed in 882? This gives Aarakocra slightly over 4.5 thousand years to "dwell in great numbers" there. You answered your own question.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 06:57:03
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Ed sent me lore a long while ago on the Star Mounts, but I'm not sure its for public consumption. Why don't you ask him on his thread and see if he can release it?
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2014 : 08:42:02
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It dealt specifically with the info on the place in FR5, fleshing that out some. I suspect it was lore he dug up for the "Son of Thunder" novel.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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The Dracorage
