| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 24 Jun 2014 : 16:53:09
One of my new hobbies is converting the RSE's into campaigns that make a bit more sense (and contain a bit more useful detail) to allow players to participate in the events.
From what i understand the Dracorage Mythal was placed in Novularond. I have a big beef with that because Novularond is slap bang in the middle of the Colossal Kingdom which the giants owned.
And at the time of the elves building the Dracorage Mythal this Colossal Kingdom was involved in a war (which it was losing) to dragons.
So if you could have the Dracorage Mythal in a different place where would you have placed it. I know where my first choice would have been but i was just wondering if there was a consensus among other people about where is a good place for the elves to construct a massive world affecting mythal.
Also if there are any other things you would have changed about the Dracorage RSE what would they have been. Personally i wouldnt have killed off Sammaster. |
| 22 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 03 Jul 2014 : 08:59:24
Cheers George, i shall go and ask |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 03 Jul 2014 : 08:42:02
It dealt specifically with the info on the place in FR5, fleshing that out some. I suspect it was lore he dug up for the "Son of Thunder" novel.
-- George Krashos |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 08:38:25
Do you have any more hints George as to what it is about, if i just ask Ed for lore on the Star Mounts he might give me a different piece. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 06:57:03
Ed sent me lore a long while ago on the Star Mounts, but I'm not sure its for public consumption. Why don't you ask him on his thread and see if he can release it?
-- George Krashos |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 01 Jul 2014 : 08:16:46
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
It can be no coincidence that the war between the dragons and Ostoria ended at the same time as the elves raised the mythal.
Well, of course. The war is called on account of one combatant failing to start the next attack due to being reduced to drooling idiocy.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
The Aarakocra are stated as "once dwelt in great numbers among the central Star Mounts." Now they are almost all gone thanks to one dragon so one can assume they prospered in a time when dragons were absent.
[...]The crystals are said to be dwellings or fortresses and are believed to be created by the elves of Eaerlann. One dragon is mentioned establishing a lair on the mountains only after the nation of Eaerlann collapsed.
That, too - lots of warlike elven spellhurlers. Eaerlann was founded circa -4700 and destroyed in 882? This gives Aarakocra slightly over 4.5 thousand years to "dwell in great numbers" there. You answered your own question.  |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 29 Jun 2014 : 20:12:36
Well the thousand years war event says it started with the red dragons and eventually drew in all the dragons so they might all have been involved in the war with the giants (who did own half the continent at the time) and an avatar of their god was present so it would have been a very important war.
However dragons cannot always have lived on the Star Mounts because there are elven structures there and aarakocra settlements.
The Aarakocra are stated as "once dwelt in great numbers among the central Star Mounts." Now they are almost all gone thanks to one dragon so one can assume they prospered in a time when dragons were absent.
The crystals are said to be dwellings or fortresses and are believed to be created by the elves of Eaerlann. One dragon is mentioned establishing a lair on the mountains only after the nation of Eaerlann collapsed.
Plus to state that something has always lived there for years is a very strong statement. Between the time of dragons arriving on Faerun to the raising of the Dracorage mythal was 7000 years or more, that is a long time for things to change, and although the mountain range is occupied by dragons now I have seen now reference to them having always lived there in the sourcebooks.
But since it is sooo long ago in the past a little alteration to history is not always a bad thing. If I have all the dragons go off to war for a thousand years then there is enough time for the elves to built a fortress in that time. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 29 Jun 2014 : 13:15:40
As for tying mythals to objects - I agree. I much preferred them being independent. The only mythal I've written up has no such focal stone. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 29 Jun 2014 : 12:53:14
What I meant about the Star mounts was this: there are ALWAYS dragons there, be it in "Evermeet's" ancient histories, newer tales, the dragon supplements, or all of the North/High Forest works there are dragons in the Star Mounts. And usually they are big ancient dragons who go where no one else dare. To me that seems like a BAD place to hide something from dragons. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 28 Jun 2014 : 20:36:46
Well If it were me, I would let the giants and dragons fight it out while I prepared this epic mythal that covered the entire planet, so it probably took a few years to create.
Whilst I were doing that I would build a fortress in a remote place to give the dragons a target when they were finished annihilating the giants (because lets face it the giants didn't stand a chance - even with elvish help).
I figure elves are smart, and they know that dragons are smart. And this mythal that they created enveloped the entire planet so I reckon everyone became aware of it once it really started to take shape (a being knows when a charm spell is cast on it so imagine how weird it feels when a world altering mythal is weaved around you).
The dragons look for the source which is a big beam of light coming from a huge mountain with a massive elven citadel atop it. They hurl everything they have at it, and probably shatter the citadel (and kill almost all the avariel in the process), and all they find is a portal that can only be activated by moonlight that leads to who knows where.
By then its already too late. The dragons had spent all their time and energy focused on killing the giants. The elves had almost finished the mythal and the dragons only became aware of it and tried to stop it at the last hurdle.
It can be no coincidence that the war between the dragons and Ostoria ended at the same time as the elves raised the mythal. The elves let them fight among themselves while they came up with a weapon that could end the war with the press of a button.
At least that is how I will be playing it. And along the way I will try and tie in all the origin myths presented in the draconomicon (which is a task in itself). |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 28 Jun 2014 : 14:52:26
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I actually do agree with Dazzlerdal on one thing: the tying of the mythal to an object. In 2E, we didn't have any references at all to there being a physical object at the heart of a mythal. That was something introduced as a plot device in 3E, with the regrettable Return of the Archwizards trilogy. All the other writers that used mythals stuck with that concept
Well, yes.
I'm not saying that it's an unquestionably good idea, but it was not unprecedented. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Jun 2014 : 14:34:21
I actually do agree with Dazzlerdal on one thing: the tying of the mythal to an object. In 2E, we didn't have any references at all to there being a physical object at the heart of a mythal. That was something introduced as a plot device in 3E, with the regrettable Return of the Archwizards trilogy. All the other writers that used mythals stuck with that concept
I don't like the idea of physical keystones to mythals, and I wish they'd never come up with that idea. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 28 Jun 2014 : 11:25:05
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Not to harmstring your great rewriting efforts but i see a good number of ways in which the Dracorage Mythal could be placed in the Novularonds without much explanation issues:
1) While the giants were occupied with the dragons on the borders of the Colossal Kingdom (it's kinda hard for great wyrms to sneak in undetected especially after a thousand years of war in which the giants surely developed special anti-dragon spells, items, weapons, alarms and whatnot), the elves sneak into the Novularonds and use their considerable High Magic might (probably at the height of their power when internecine war and fragmentation due to colonization haven't yet divided all their High Mages) to do what they please with the dragons' minds;
2) The elves already had the city in the Novularonds (the sources i have contradict themselves, in the GHotR it's said the Dracorage Mythal was created in a "newly built citadel" while Dragons of Faerun states that the Dracorage Mythal was created in an "ancient citadel", the first elves arrived 2000 years prior), hidden with High Magic and a standard mythal (like the invisible city in the Forest of Mir that teleports any non-elf and non-gnome approaching to the other edge of the city) or other mundane means and when the dragons started winning their war with the giants they stepped up the game with the Dracorage Mythal revealing themselves;
3) The elves were allies to the giants of the Colossal Kingdom (ruled by storm and cloud giants if i'm not mistaken, so honorable and good folk, not brutish evildoers like hill, fire or frost giants and after all the elves were sent to Toril to stop the dragons so "the enemy of my enemy ...") so to lay down their master plan they constructed the citadel in the middle of the giant kingdom so that the strenght of the giants could protect it while the elves alone probably wouldn't have sufficed and the High Magic of the elves provided the giants the edge they needed to survive some centuries more (only to be slowly supplanted by "lesser" humanoid races);
Which is kind of dovetails into one another:
What people do when they have foes whom they can't fight on their own? Right, they play "enemy of my enemy".
How the elves could help the giants without leaving too much of a trace leading anywhere in particular? Doing what they do well: enchantments, scouting and magical communication.
And if they supply giants with dragon-fighting equipment and stealth jobs, they would constantly keep representatives / magical communication mouthpieces / early warning posts around there, thus when they want to pull some other trick, their very presence won't give away anything.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
One of the myths begins with all dragons were originally red. Then we have myths that dragons were created by Asgoroth and also that they evolved from lesser draco-form creatures.
That's what those arrogant reds say. 
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well you certainly could come up with reasoning as to why the elves built an incredibly important stronghold so far away from their power base
[...]
I myself no longer care for canon when it is weak. I have found a location in the heart of elven lands. It is very defensible.
The whole point is that before the first Dracorage nothing was very defensible.
quote:
It has a mountain which is aptly named "Travellers Star". And it has a portal atop it that can only be activated by full moon light which could take the person to the location of the mythal. Now that is a good location for an ancient citadel no one has found in millennia.
Glorious. A small location to which the dragons would actually pay attention due to it being a ruined Aearee place. In the heart of the elven lands (to whatever degree it could be called so back then). With such a name. And at this point they could as well write "this way to the Dragon-exterminating mythal ->" with bright paint over it. 
quote:
Of course my other big beef is the fact that the elves tied a mythal to an object. That sounds like something a human (Netherese) would do, but not an elf. They tie their magic to the land itself.
Evereska? |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 27 Jun 2014 : 12:49:59
The loss of knowledge after the downfall of the roman empire was knowledge only the romans possesed but not the people invading them form the north and east and nothing their life and death depended on like the dracorage mythal.
So I guess its plausible that a (large?) group of dragons got knowledge on the mythal and attacked it. Maybe they even tried to spread this information but others didn't believe them. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 27 Jun 2014 : 12:01:11
Ah, well i thought about that too and came up with an answer, but it relies on my own version of a history of dragons (taken by weaving together various bits from the original Draconomicon).
It mostly comes from the various dragon myths in the Draconomicon. By weaving them all together i have a variation on the dragon origins.
One of the myths begins with all dragons were originally red. Then we have myths that dragons were created by Asgoroth and also that they evolved from lesser draco-form creatures.
And forgetting important knowledge is not all that unusual. The destruction of the Roman Empire brought about a period of decline in accumulated and known knowledge across Europe. 1000 years is a long time to us, 20000+ years is a long time to a dragon.
|
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 27 Jun 2014 : 11:33:29
Yes that rings a bell, that there was such a battle, even though I don't fully remember it. But I doubt that all of dragonkind knew about this, because how could they forget something important again? |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 26 Jun 2014 : 10:58:49
As far as i know they did unite to destroy it and the Avariel were almost made extinct because of their sacrifices to defend it. |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 26 Jun 2014 : 10:19:16
The location of the dracorage mythal wasn't so much about being close and defensible but about being hidden so hopefully no one never finds out it even exists.
Because if the dragons would have known about it, they would have united to destroy it. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 26 Jun 2014 : 09:23:45
Someone knows their lore then, i dont think i mentioned that it was in the Star Mounts.
It was the name for the mountain that gave me the idea of placing it there. The Travellers Star seemed far too good a link to the comet that causes the Dracorage. Then with huge crystals that require full moon light to open a portal, its a pretty good method of protection. And since the crystals are broken now it is one reason why no one has ever found it since. (and i have thought of a trail that Sammaster followed and the party can follow to explain why it has only been discovered now)
Out of interest what draconic problems do you foresee in placing it in the Star Mounts?
I have never read any of the novels which is probably why i never knew they started tying mythals to objects. It seems very crude given that a mythal seems like magic given life to me and that might explain its original tie to the land. An object is lifeless, inanimate, without natural beauty, and it doesnt seem like something an elf would pick to centre a mythal on. Not that i think it has to be centred on anything and in fact in my rewrite i have a few surprises.
|
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 26 Jun 2014 : 02:44:10
As far as rewriting into the Star Mounts, there are a couple big draconic problems there, but presuming that the elves of the High Forest were able to pull that off I think it is a nice remote location. I have also relocated a plot or two to that location without much difficulty.
In the old works where mythals were mysterious and the actual working of their magic left to DMs and players an object was never described. The first solid instance of that I know of was from the Return of the Archwizards and the Mythal of Evereska. The Rogue Dragon books used it as well and then finally the Last Mythal books broadened the idea. Personally I have no problem with it, though I agree that it is not entirely necessary. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 25 Jun 2014 : 08:37:19
Well you certainly could come up with reasoning as to why the elves built an incredibly important stronghold so far away from their power base, and why the Colossal Kingdom allowed a race they werent allied with (as far as we know) to build a military stronghold in the heart of their kingdom.
I myself no longer care for canon when it is weak. I have found a location in the heart of elven lands. It is very defensible. Definitely located on a number of ley lines. It is buffeted by winds so strong only a dragon can get through them. It has a mountain which is aptly named "Travellers Star". And it has a portal atop it that can only be activated by full moon light which could take the person to the location of the mythal. Now that is a good location for an ancient citadel no one has found in millennia.
Of course my other big beef is the fact that the elves tied a mythal to an object. That sounds like something a human (Netherese) would do, but not an elf. They tie their magic to the land itself.
I'm still gonna change it for my version so that Sammaster is not permanently destroyed (but is out of action for a long time), the location of the mythal will be different, and players will actually be able to take part in the tracking down and fighting Sammaster as well as combatting insane dragons across the world. Plus there is no deus ex machina anywhere in this version. No one will be suddenly discovering ancient spells that stop the dracorage (even though they had never been found before in over 26000 years.
I was just wondering if anyone had any ideas for alternatives.
I'll be doing a similar thing for Return of the Archwizards and the Cormyrean War with Navalar- whatever her name is (Ghazneths why????), and fishing for alternative ideas. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Jun 2014 : 00:33:53
It could have also had something to do with the specific location. Perhaps a bunch of ley lines converged there, or maybe there was some sort of node of magical energy (or High Magic) right there, or something along those lines. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 24 Jun 2014 : 21:55:08
Not to harmstring your great rewriting efforts but i see a good number of ways in which the Dracorage Mythal could be placed in the Novularonds without much explanation issues:
1) While the giants were occupied with the dragons on the borders of the Colossal Kingdom (it's kinda hard for great wyrms to sneak in undetected especially after a thousand years of war in which the giants surely developed special anti-dragon spells, items, weapons, alarms and whatnot), the elves sneak into the Novularonds and use their considerable High Magic might (probably at the height of their power when internecine war and fragmentation due to colonization haven't yet divided all their High Mages) to do what they please with the dragons' minds;
2) The elves already had the city in the Novularonds (the sources i have contradict themselves, in the GHotR it's said the Dracorage Mythal was created in a "newly built citadel" while Dragons of Faerun states that the Dracorage Mythal was created in an "ancient citadel", the first elves arrived 2000 years prior), hidden with High Magic and a standard mythal (like the invisible city in the Forest of Mir that teleports any non-elf and non-gnome approaching to the other edge of the city) or other mundane means and when the dragons started winning their war with the giants they stepped up the game with the Dracorage Mythal revealing themselves;
3) The elves were allies to the giants of the Colossal Kingdom (ruled by storm and cloud giants if i'm not mistaken, so honorable and good folk, not brutish evildoers like hill, fire or frost giants and after all the elves were sent to Toril to stop the dragons so "the enemy of my enemy ...") so to lay down their master plan they constructed the citadel in the middle of the giant kingdom so that the strenght of the giants could protect it while the elves alone probably wouldn't have sufficed and the High Magic of the elves provided the giants the edge they needed to survive some centuries more (only to be slowly supplanted by "lesser" humanoid races); |
