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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
189 Posts

Posted - 25 Dec 2014 :  10:56:21  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Stronmaus the Storm Lord: http://blog.aulddragon.com/2014/12/stronmaus-the-storm-lord/

Stronmaus the Storm Lord is the most powerful member of the Ordning outside of Annam, and is the de facto leader of the pantheon. He is the exuberant patron of the storm and good cloud giants, and holds domain over the seas and skies, sunshine, and weather of all sorts.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5030 Posts

Posted - 26 Dec 2014 :  02:10:31  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

Stronmaus the Storm Lord: http://blog.aulddragon.com/2014/12/stronmaus-the-storm-lord/

Stronmaus the Storm Lord is the most powerful member of the Ordning outside of Annam, and is the de facto leader of the pantheon. He is the exuberant patron of the storm and good cloud giants, and holds domain over the seas and skies, sunshine, and weather of all sorts.

Jeff




Just wondering, how much of this came from canon links? I ask because some of this stuff makes Stronmaus seem inordinately like Thor, except that he's a giant deity (though some here have stated in the past that the Norse pantheon and the giant pantheon seem somewhat similar with Annam resembling Odin). The fact that he's wielding a hammer of thunderbolts that returns when thrown for instance. Granted, this deity is more smiling and less grim than Thor would be.

Oh, and your possible ties of Stronmaus to the breaking apart of the moon.... I'd like to hear more of your thoughts there, given that we've got a lot of individuals being rumored to be involved there.

I like your references to a shrine in the Storm Horns/Thunder Peaks, and wonder if it has ties to the old Cloudlands of Avaerether.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
189 Posts

Posted - 26 Dec 2014 :  03:55:37  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Just wondering, how much of this came from canon links? I ask because some of this stuff makes Stronmaus seem inordinately like Thor, except that he's a giant deity (though some here have stated in the past that the Norse pantheon and the giant pantheon seem somewhat similar with Annam resembling Odin). The fact that he's wielding a hammer of thunderbolts that returns when thrown for instance. Granted, this deity is more smiling and less grim than Thor would be.


Those similarities are pretty much canon; primarily from DMGR4 Monster Mythology, as are the similarities between Annam and Odin. It seems to me that these elements, along with of course Surtr's and Thrym's obsession, is one of the reasons for the long conflict between the Giant and Norse pantheons.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Oh, and your possible ties of Stronmaus to the breaking apart of the moon.... I'd like to hear more of your thoughts there, given that we've got a lot of individuals being rumored to be involved there.


That's basically taken from the description of Annam's Sky Cleaver axe in the Titan of Twilight; the haft had images of a number of the giantish gods, and the image of Stronmaus was of him "smashing moons with his mighty hammer." Seemed like a logical leap to turn it into a representation of a giantish myth about the creation of the Tears of Selune. If there is anything specific connecting the two, or any other material with such a representation, I don't know of it. I don't really have any firm view on the origin of the Tears.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I like your references to a shrine in the Storm Horns/Thunder Peaks, and wonder if it has ties to the old Cloudlands of Avaerether.



I'd forgotten about the Cloudlands when I created it; I made it up to explain the seemingly large population of good giants in the mountains. It probably would have been important to the Cloudlands if it really is as old as it is rumored to be.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
189 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2015 :  07:57:36  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Vaprak the Destroyer: http://blog.aulddragon.com/2015/01/vaprak-the-destroyer/

Vaprak is the deity of ogres and trolls, and as befits those races, he is a savage and destructive god. With an alternate view of Vaprak from Elminster's Ecologies, he becomes a much more interesting god than a single-mindedly destructive god, although that is still his predominant personality trait.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
189 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2015 :  01:38:06  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Iíve completed a set of formal rules for handling specialty priests for dragons. These rules are compatible with the Council of Wyrms Dragon-Priest kit and can be used with PCs. They are also usable outside of that setting, and replace the rules in the Cult of the Dragon for draconic specialty priests. These rules will be familiar to those who are familiar with the previous post I made on draconic specialty priests, as well as my entry on Tiamat, although they are now more detailed.

The rules can be read or downloaded here: http://blog.aulddragon.com/2015/01/formalized-rules-for-dragon-priests/

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
189 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2015 :  06:09:21  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Annam the All-Father: http://blog.aulddragon.com/2015/02/annam-the-all-father/

Annam is the patriarch of the giants, mortal and divine. He is said to be the creator of worlds, laying the foundation upon which other pantheons have built upon. The eons he has existed and the disunity of his children has caused him to withdraw from the daily activities of his family, abdicating much of his responsibility to Stronmaus and Hiatea. While his power is nearly unrivaled, he spends much of his time watching the events of the multiverse from afar.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5030 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2015 :  01:29:51  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

Annam the All-Father: http://blog.aulddragon.com/2015/02/annam-the-all-father/

Annam is the patriarch of the giants, mortal and divine. He is said to be the creator of worlds, laying the foundation upon which other pantheons have built upon. The eons he has existed and the disunity of his children has caused him to withdraw from the daily activities of his family, abdicating much of his responsibility to Stronmaus and Hiatea. While his power is nearly unrivaled, he spends much of his time watching the events of the multiverse from afar.

Jeff



Hmmm, I like this as well, though I'd probably change some. The hint of a linkage to Ymir is interesting, but I like that its discounted, since Ymir needed to die in order to make the world.

Just to note, you hint that Annam mated with Cegilune or another deity to produce Vaprak, but his son Grolantor also mated with Cegilune. Not that that would be outside the possibilities. Personally, my take on the various races would be:

Annam and Cegilune mate, producing Eldritch Giants

Grolantor and Cegilune mate, producing bog giants

Grolantor and a dual-headed draconic deity mate, producing ettins

Vaprak and Othea mate, producing ogres

Vaprak and Cegilune mate creating the Ogre Magi

The shadow giants, I'd be intrigued to hear what others may see as a potential godly mixing which produced them. My first thoughts were Karontor and Cegilune producing them, but he has the verbeeg and fomorians.


This looks like an easter egg too "On the haft is carved various scenes of giantish mythology: Stronmaus smashing moons with his mighty hammer, "

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
189 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2015 :  05:12:53  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Hmmm, I like this as well, though I'd probably change some. The hint of a linkage to Ymir is interesting, but I like that its discounted, since Ymir needed to die in order to make the world.


Just because the myth says Ymir died doesn't mean that has to be the reality of D&D; canonically, the draconic Tiamat is the same as in the Enuma Elish, and in that myth she was killed. I actually think the story of Ymir and the perception of Annam as a creator of worlds works really well, especially as a distorted understanding by worshipers. I really like connecting these elements while keeping them simultaneously mysterious.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Just to note, you hint that Annam mated with Cegilune or another deity to produce Vaprak, but his son Grolantor also mated with Cegilune. Not that that would be outside the possibilities. Personally, my take on the various races would be:


Yep, I made that hint conscious of Grolantor's case. In Annam and Vaprak's case, it is all pure speculation. The true relationship between them is unknown.

On a related note, I've never actually found a sky goddess (or multiple sky goddesses) who strikes me as an appropriate mother to the regular giantish gods.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Vaprak and Othea mate, producing ogres


I agree with this for the ogres along the Sword Coast/Heartlands, but the ogres in Thar are quite different culturally, and I think they're from space. See my entry on Vaprak and some earlier discussion in this thread on that.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

This looks like an easter egg too "On the haft is carved various scenes of giantish mythology: Stronmaus smashing moons with his mighty hammer, "



It was mentioned in the Twilight Giants Saga (which is where that axe is from). I mentioned it in my Stronmaus write-up; on Toril, I think it forms the giantish myth on the origin of the Tears of Selune. I can't recall any other reference to a similar story anywhere else.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5030 Posts

Posted - 04 Feb 2015 :  17:04:34  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Hmmm, I like this as well, though I'd probably change some. The hint of a linkage to Ymir is interesting, but I like that its discounted, since Ymir needed to die in order to make the world.


Just because the myth says Ymir died doesn't mean that has to be the reality of D&D; canonically, the draconic Tiamat is the same as in the Enuma Elish, and in that myth she was killed. I actually think the story of Ymir and the perception of Annam as a creator of worlds works really well, especially as a distorted understanding by worshipers. I really like connecting these elements while keeping them simultaneously mysterious.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Just to note, you hint that Annam mated with Cegilune or another deity to produce Vaprak, but his son Grolantor also mated with Cegilune. Not that that would be outside the possibilities. Personally, my take on the various races would be:


Yep, I made that hint conscious of Grolantor's case. In Annam and Vaprak's case, it is all pure speculation. The true relationship between them is unknown.

On a related note, I've never actually found a sky goddess (or multiple sky goddesses) who strikes me as an appropriate mother to the regular giantish gods.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Vaprak and Othea mate, producing ogres


I agree with this for the ogres along the Sword Coast/Heartlands, but the ogres in Thar are quite different culturally, and I think they're from space. See my entry on Vaprak and some earlier discussion in this thread on that.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

This looks like an easter egg too "On the haft is carved various scenes of giantish mythology: Stronmaus smashing moons with his mighty hammer, "



It was mentioned in the Twilight Giants Saga (which is where that axe is from). I mentioned it in my Stronmaus write-up; on Toril, I think it forms the giantish myth on the origin of the Tears of Selune. I can't recall any other reference to a similar story anywhere else.

Jeff



True on the part about Ymir not necessarily having died (or he could have "died" and been rerisen... or he could have just "died" in one crystal sphere...). Again, I do like this reference.... leaving it vague was a wise choice.

Speaking of Vaprak.... do we have any origins for the creation of trolls (of the various different types at that) canonically?

On the idea of a sky goddess to which Annam may have mated to produce his giant progeny.... these children were the gods specifically over the storm, hill, cloud, and stone giants (and the voadkyns or wood giants).... this may not fit well, but what about Skadi? She was a winter goddess, up high in the mountains, and she was a giantess. Granted, later she married Njord, but that was only after her own father was slain and she forced the Aesir to grant her a husband in recompense. Nothing says that she wasn't bedding Annam prior to that. Hell, given the marital discord between Skadi and Njord (she was the mountains, he was the sea), nothing says she wasn't cuckolding him as well. Not sure if I like it, but its the closest thing to a sky goddess who is a giantess that I could think of. Granted, its also noted that Odin also bedded Skadi later on to produce children to him as well. Granted, it could also just as easily be Auril, Shar, or even Selune as well.

Along those lines, I also present another "giantess". As a night goddess, she could be a "sky goddess"... and she has a husband named Annar... similar to Annam..... and I submit the possibility that before Selune and Shar divided (which isn't canonical) perhaps the combined entity that was them was Annam's wife.

Nat: Night
Night is a beautiful giantess with dark skin and hair as the midnight black. She is the daughter of Narfi, one of the first giants. She has been married three times, her first husband was Aud, her second husband was Annar, they had a daughter named Earth. Her third husband was Delling "Dawn" they had a son named Dag "Day". Nat and Dag were both given a chariot and put into the sky, to ride across the heaven.
- See more at: http://www.viking-mythology.com/jotuns.php#sthash.uLkjoGS9.dpuf


I agree on your thoughts on the spelljamming ogres. I really like that idea.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
496 Posts

Posted - 04 Feb 2015 :  20:37:24  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nice material, especialy on the gods of giants. Annam being Ymir as the Allfather, was also something I though of. Conan did something similar with Ymir. And about the goddess with which Annam mated, Ymir is described in the myths as hermaphrodite of sorts, able to produce offspring without a partner.
Whie I like sleyvas suggestion about Nat, there is another goddess that coud fit: Ilmatar of the Finnish pantheon. A goddess of Sky/Air, who is also said to reproduce without a partner. Not to mention, the Finnish and Norse pantheons, had some influence on eachother, so she een fit with Norse-like character of of the Gigantish pantheon.
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
189 Posts

Posted - 05 Feb 2015 :  00:15:07  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Speaking of Vaprak.... do we have any origins for the creation of trolls (of the various different types at that) canonically?


Not that I'm aware of, either for the trolls of FR or another connected setting. Of course, being a god of a race doesn't mean that one must predate the race (this seems to be the case of many of the giantish-related deities). I think Vaprak was also once two separate deities, one for ogres and one for trolls, explaining much of the differences between the two races' religious practices.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

On the idea of a sky goddess to which Annam may have mated to produce his giant progeny.... these children were the gods specifically over the storm, hill, cloud, and stone giants (and the voadkyns or wood giants).... this may not fit well, but what about Skadi? She was a winter goddess, up high in the mountains, and she was a giantess. Granted, later she married Njord, but that was only after her own father was slain and she forced the Aesir to grant her a husband in recompense. Nothing says that she wasn't bedding Annam prior to that. Hell, given the marital discord between Skadi and Njord (she was the mountains, he was the sea), nothing says she wasn't cuckolding him as well. Not sure if I like it, but its the closest thing to a sky goddess who is a giantess that I could think of. Granted, its also noted that Odin also bedded Skadi later on to produce children to him as well. Granted, it could also just as easily be Auril, Shar, or even Selune as well.


It's likely that many of Annam's children don't share mothers, as well. I think Grolantor and Karontor were probably by a different mother than the rest, Hiatea and Diancastra probably had non-godly parents (I suspect Hiatea was borne to a Firbolg mother and Diancastra was born to a Storm Giant mother). Iallanis was also probably borne to yet another deity as well. The reasons are mostly due to the generational differences between them.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Nice material, especialy on the gods of giants. Annam being Ymir as the Allfather, was also something I though of. Conan did something similar with Ymir. And about the goddess with which Annam mated, Ymir is described in the myths as hermaphrodite of sorts, able to produce offspring without a partner.
Whie I like sleyvas suggestion about Nat, there is another goddess that coud fit: Ilmatar of the Finnish pantheon. A goddess of Sky/Air, who is also said to reproduce without a partner. Not to mention, the Finnish and Norse pantheons, had some influence on eachother, so she een fit with Norse-like character of of the Gigantish pantheon.


Thanks, glad you liked it. I'll be giving more thought to these suggestions as I work on the cultural pantheons later.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5030 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2015 :  00:39:58  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Nice material, especialy on the gods of giants. Annam being Ymir as the Allfather, was also something I though of. Conan did something similar with Ymir. And about the goddess with which Annam mated, Ymir is described in the myths as hermaphrodite of sorts, able to produce offspring without a partner.
Whie I like sleyvas suggestion about Nat, there is another goddess that coud fit: Ilmatar of the Finnish pantheon. A goddess of Sky/Air, who is also said to reproduce without a partner. Not to mention, the Finnish and Norse pantheons, had some influence on eachother, so she een fit with Norse-like character of of the Gigantish pantheon.




Hmmmm, I literally JUST noticed something on rereading what I posted. So, If Annam corresponds to Annar in the Nat/Night version of Selune and Shar.... then the third husband of Nat/Night is "Dawn" and they had a son named "Day"...... so two sun deities possibly.... All just some suppositions that could be played with.


Her third husband was Delling "Dawn" they had a son named Dag "Day". Nat and Dag were both given a chariot and put into the sky, to ride across the heaven.

Then there's the first husband.... Aud.... simply short name that starts with an A........hmmmmm.... this could actually maybe work in some theories.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
496 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2015 :  12:44:21  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, while I like Annam being connected to Ymir, there are clues he isn't the first giant deity, like Memnor being sometimes described as his brother, and Ulutiu being able to father the Giant-kin races on Toril.
Maybe Ymir is a title, and numerous holders of the name were merged in the Norse myths into one? Especialy that Ulutiu has some Ymir-like elements.

By the way AuldDragon, will you include Ulutiu in the project, or is he to world specific? He's an interesting deity, but it seems that giants and giant-kin rather don't worship him.

Edited by - Baltas on 25 Feb 2015 12:54:31
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
189 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2015 :  13:00:43  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Also, while I like Annam being connected to Ymir, there are clues he isn't the first giant deity, like Memnor being described as his brother, and Ulutiu being able to father the Giant-kin races on Toril.
Maybe Ymir is a title, and numerous holders of the name were merged in the Norse myths into one? Especialy that Ulutiu has some Ymir-like elements.

Bu the way AuldDragon, will you include Ulutiu in the project, or is he to world specific?



I assume you mean that if Memnor is Annam's brother, then they have to have a mother? That's not necessarily the case. Normal biology really doesn't apply to gods; they could be self-created or spawned from the cosmos itself. Personally, I think Memnor is Stronmaus's brother, as the dynamic between the gods works better that way IMO.

As for Ulutiu, he's not a giant deity, and the giantkin don't worship him. He was already covered in Powers and Pantheons anyway. Him being the father of the giantkin doesn't really say much, other than that the giantkin of Toril (firbolgs at least) are younger than those of other worlds, since Hiatea was raised by them somewhere before joining the ranks of the Ordning, and there's a clear indication she was already established as a deity before Annam met Othea.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5030 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2015 :  13:46:35  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
that brings up a question. Does anyone recall... has Othea been given a deity entry AND has she ever officially been acknowledged as a goddess (I'd look, but I'm headed for work). Just wondering if she weren't a primordial of some sort local to Toril.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
496 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2015 :  13:48:53  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dunno, I think that Ulutiu might have been once a Giant god, or at least related to them, in the same way the Norse pantheon is(Ymir(Annam) is after all Odin's ancestor through his mother Bestla). But yeah, he was covered allready in Powers and Pantheons.

There is also the Primordial Piranoth from fourth edition, who is described as the giants ancestor. Some theorize he may be Annam's aspect, father, or son. Although one may say he's specific to the point's of light setting.
While speaking of 4th edition, will you ientify the Queen of Air and Darkness with Auril? I think that was one deity fusion in 4th ed, that worked, as Auril always seemed 'Fey' to me, in multple meanings of that word.

Also, about the forgotten draconic deities, there was one, Azharul, mentioned in by Ed when questioned about the Tyranny of Dragons storyline, who Tiamat absorbed, and that was revealed as the whole reason for her stay in Banehold.

[EDIT]

[EDIT2]
Moved the quote to the Minor Draconic Deities of the Past thread.
Also:
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

that brings up a question. Does anyone recall... has Othea been given a deity entry AND has she ever officially been acknowledged as a goddess (I'd look, but I'm headed for work). Just wondering if she weren't a primordial of some sort local to Toril.



I think that very may be the case, although I think she was called a godess a few times, it may be for the same reason they counted Borem previously a god. And Othea manifested herself as a mountain, like Borem was a muddy river. So yeah, she's probably a primordial.

Also, as Othea doesn't seem connected in any way to the giant pantheon, it's odd her and Ulutiu's children were giant-kin.

So because of that, I think Ulutiu may be giant god, that got forgotten among giants and giant-kin, quite possibly because Annam himself wanted to erase all memory about Ulutiu in revenge and punishment for seducing Othea. Also, Annam has many paralells to Odin. Vili and Vee, Odin's brothers, might have been exiled and forgotten, because one, or both of them had an affair with Frigg, or tried to seduce her, the sources are unclear. Odin probably exiled his brothers, and erased all about them. Of course, that's just a mythologized explanation why Vili and Vee disapeared soon after the worlds creation, but still. I think Ulutiu might be similary Annam's lost "brother", in the sense they both manifested from the same primordial storm. This would explain why Memnor is sometimes called Annam's brother - his myth got conflated with the vague memory of Ulutiu.

Edited by - Baltas on 25 Feb 2015 19:03:41
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
189 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2015 :  00:52:57  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

that brings up a question. Does anyone recall... has Othea been given a deity entry AND has she ever officially been acknowledged as a goddess (I'd look, but I'm headed for work). Just wondering if she weren't a primordial of some sort local to Toril.



She was never written up in 2nd Edition, nor in any edition after to my knowledge. She probably would be a Primordial in post-2e editions. She's specifically a demigoddess in Giantcraft. There's not a whole lot of material to work with, as her purpose is solely as the progenitor of mortal giants and the setup for the political conditions of Hartsvale. There's no evidence she was ever truly worshiped or granted priest spells.

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Dunno, I think that Ulutiu might have been once a Giant god, or at least related to them, in the same way the Norse pantheon is(Ymir(Annam) is after all Odin's ancestor through his mother Bestla). But yeah, he was covered allready in Powers and Pantheons.


Genetics doesn't apply to divine beings. Echidna birthed a lion, a two headed dog, a hydra, a chimera, and various other beasts for example. To an extent, a deity being a "giant deity" or a "dragon deity" is based on who their primary worshipers are and who they associate with. For example, Nathair Sgiathach is an offspring of Io, but has moved into the Seelie Court. Similarly, regardless of parentage, the Aesir and Ulutiu are associated with humans, so aren't giant gods, regardless of parentage.

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

There is also the Primordial Piranoth from fourth edition, who is described as the giants ancestor. Some theorize he may be Annam's aspect, father, or son. Although one may say he's specific to the point's of light setting.


I generally ignore the wholesale changes and retcons that came with 4e (including primordials). I'm not familiar with anything involving Piranoth, so I have no real opinion beyond a generally discounting anything that differs from prior canon.

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

While speaking of 4th edition, will you ientify the Queen of Air and Darkness with Auril? I think that was one deity fusion in 4th ed, that worked, as Auril always seemed 'Fey' to me, in multple meanings of that word.


No. No. A billion times no. No to the infinite power. Did I mention no? I don't like merging deities in general, but I found the merging of Auril and the Queen, as well as Talos and Gruumsh, to be personally infuriating.

The Queen of Air and Darkness is a dark twin (metaphorical, not literal) of Titania, representing death to her live, and evil magic to her good magic. She is a goddess of secret murder and dangerous illusions, and represents the dangers of deep forests, and is an entity of corruption, twisting the nature of some creatures to evil and corrupting others int undeath. She's the closest thing surface elves have to a native evil deity, as well. Auril on the other hand is a representation of the stereotypical ice queen. The only similarities she shares with the Queen of Air and Darkness is that she is evil (but not even the same variety of evil), they both dwell in Pandemonium, and the ice queen stereotype is sometimes a faerie in various folklore.

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Also, as Othea doesn't seem connected in any way to the giant pantheon, it's odd her and Ulutiu's children were giant-kin.


As I mentioned, genetics don't apply to gods; Annam and Othea produced Julian/Arno, after all. It's possible Othea's desire to deceive Annam factored into the appearance of the kin, for example. Considering the substantial differences between the other giant patriarchs, there's no real reason that it wasn't chance, either. Note also that per The Titan of Twilight novel, there were other, forgotten patriarchs of other giantish races that no longer dwell in Hartsvale; this likely includes patriarchs for the Zakharan giants such as jungle giants, reef giants, and desert giants, so you're looking at a very wide variety of body types and shapes already.

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

So because of that, I think Ulutiu may be giant god, that got forgotten among giants and giant-kin, quite possibly because Annam himself wanted to erase all memory about Ulutiu in revenge and punishment for seducing Othea. Also, Annam has many paralells to Odin. Vili and Vee, Odin's brothers, might have been exiled and forgotten, because one, or both of them had an affair with Frigg, or tried to seduce her, the sources are unclear. Odin probably exiled his brothers, and erased all about them. Of course, that's just a mythologized explanation why Vili and Vee disapeared soon after the worlds creation, but still. I think Ulutiu might be similary Annam's lost "brother", in the sense they both manifested from the same primordial storm. This would explain why Memnor is sometimes called Annam's brother - his myth got conflated with the vague memory of Ulutiu.


Ulutiu, like Othea, was a local deity (although not necessarily native) to the north of Faerun. There isn't much history of him prior to his encounter with Othea and Annam, but I doubt there's any prior relation. I have a pretty strong opinion that divine similarities should not be overstated; i.e. if there are canon similarities between Odin and Annam, incorporating non-canon similarities should be avoided, as it dilutes their differences. You're always going to get some similarities, either intentional or unintentional, but it's the differences that make the deities unique and interesting.

Jeff

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Baltas
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Posted - 26 Feb 2015 :  01:04:37  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, but about the other topic, what do think of Azharul, and him being the forgotten draconic god of vengence?

Edited by - Baltas on 26 Feb 2015 01:22:33
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AuldDragon
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Posted - 26 Feb 2015 :  01:09:25  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Okay, but about the other topic, what do think of Azharul, and him being the forgotten draconic god of vengence?



Keeping that to the other thread.

Jeff

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Baltas
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Posted - 26 Feb 2015 :  01:23:14  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, weren't Titania and Queen of Air and Darkness literaly siblings, and possibly twins?

But as you said, the Queen of Air and Darkness is actualy sometimes, or even often connected to cold and winter, she's even called the Winter Queen of the Winter Court, in some places, the most notable modern example being the Dresden Files.
The Unseelie Court is sometimes known as indeed the Winter Court. Evil/Destructive Fey are generaly connected to winter, as seen in the example of Others in "A Song of Fire and Ice".

Some deities also changed quite a bit their portfolio, after they entered Faerun, most notably Bast/Sharess, Tyr(although again, he was the original god of justice in the Norse faith, and Forseti just latter took over that role, when Tyr diminished). Auril herself was also described way before 4e, in 2e (maybe or even 1e I think), that she lost a lot of her former power and portfolio, because of Talos.

That's why I think this fusion ties nicely together. Then again, you might have a diffrent opinion.

[Edit]

Also, the Celtic Goddess of Winter, Cailleach, is sometimes thought as the source of the Queen of Air and Darkness, and it's quite probable that "Queen of Air and Darkness", is one of Cailleach titles, or at least it's permutation.

[Edit2]

Also, while people often errously atribute the Queen of Air and Darkness to the novel by T. H. White it's actualy a much olde title from folklore. It appeared before T. H. White novel(published in 1939), in A. E. Houseman's Last Poems(1922), and as I wrote above, is much older than that, probably connected to Cailleach, and Mab/Mebd.

Edited by - Baltas on 26 Feb 2015 01:44:50
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AuldDragon
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Posted - 26 Feb 2015 :  08:34:33  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Also, weren't Titania and Queen of Air and Darkness literaly siblings, and possibly twins?


There's no indication they're twins, but it is not impossible. I just wanted to be clear I was using the term metaphorically.

I don't really want to get into a debate over Auril and the Queen of Air and Darkness, but suffice it to say that Auril appears to be inspired by The White Witch of Narnia or Hans Christian Anderson's The Snow Queen, while the Queen of Air and Darkness appears to be an original creation (other than the name, probably drawn from Poul Anderson's story over anything else) of Carl Sargent's. The reasons given strike me as very tenuous and unconvincing to me (especially questionable connections to Gaelic entities or unrelated book series published after the creation of the deities.), especially when I oppose the goal in the first place.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
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Baltas
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Posted - 26 Feb 2015 :  13:02:16  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I did say you might have a diffrent opinion, and with Cailleach, it was more me giving some trivia.

Also, dunno, but as I wrote the Queen of Air and Darkness, is not Carl Sargent, or Poul Anderson creation, but a much earlier being from the folklore of U.K. and Ireland. Her being the leader of the Unseelie Court, is also from what I know something older than the creation and publishing of Monster Mythology.

[EDIT]

To be clear, I don't want to change your opinion about Auril and Queen of Air and Darkness, I just want to point out, that the 4e fusions, this one works the best, seeing how Queen of Air and Darkness was connected to cold and winter in folklore, they lived on the same plane actualy, Auril had a mysterious backstory, where she was mentioned as something much greater in the past. Also Auril also lived in Arborea/Arvandor, and was exiled from there, as shown in the Evermeet book. There was even some speculation that Auril may be a fey deity, before 4th edition came out. And as opposed to all those fusions, they put some work in it, writing a whole article that connected the lore of Auril and Queen of Air and Darkness, in Dragon #367 "Realmslore: Hall of the Frostmaiden" article, and expanding on it also in a few other sources. There, Brian R. James actualy references Cailleach, with the bheur hags serving under Auril. Cailleach Bheur, is one of the Gaelic winter goddess' names.

As I said above, I don't mean to change your opinion AuldDragon, just wanted to say that out of all those fusions(Selune/Sehanine, Akadi/Aerdie Fenya, Gruumsh/Talos, Chauntea/Yondalla), this one actualy worked to me, and other people. I was more curious if you would count it or not, later just pointing out the observations I made above.

[EDIT2]

This also leaves the question of Cegilune, who's also called Titania's dark twin...This makes me wonder if Cegilune and the Queen of Air and Darkness, aren't maybe two faces of the same being.
Cailleach is also presented oftenly as a Hag, and as I mentioned, Cailleach may be the source of the Queen of Air and Darkness.

Or maybe Titania was also infected by Tharizdun's dark gem, but separated/cut the corrupted part of herself. From the corrupted part, would be Cegilune born. This would also explain why when one dies, the other would also, as both Titania, and Cegilune, would be still two halves of the same being, if separated.

[EDIT3]
Another interesting fact about Cailleach, is that she could switch between her two forms, a whithered horryfying hag, and a beautiful maiden. Maybe this the case with Cegilune and Queen of Air and Darkness?
More about the connection between Cailleach and Queen of Air and Darkness, can be read in the article Queen Of Air And Darkness by Mara Freeman, aviable free on the net(http://www.druidry.org/library/gods-goddesses/queen-air-and-darkness)(althought the article itself was originaly written in 1991), and a bit about it in Of Sex and Faerie: Further essays on Genre Fiction.

Edited by - Baltas on 27 Feb 2015 00:02:03
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AuldDragon
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Posted - 27 Feb 2015 :  01:40:02  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Well, I did say you might have a diffrent opinion, and with Cailleach, it was more me giving some trivia.

Also, dunno, but as I wrote the Queen of Air and Darkness, is not Carl Sargent, or Poul Anderson creation, but a much earlier being from the folklore of U.K. and Ireland. Her being the leader of the Unseelie Court, is also from what I know something older than the creation and publishing of Monster Mythology.


I don't see it. There's no mention of her having winter elements (in fact, she seems to have earthy, agricultural elements) in Daithi O hOgain's The Lore of Ireland. I saw a reference to a supposed "Old Lady of Gloominess" title for the Manx version, but there was no citation for that and it seems like a real stretch to connect that to the Queen of Air and Darkness. Wikipedia talks about the Scots-Gaelic version being a mountain/hill builder, but that seems fairly unique to Scotland, and not Ireland, thus being a later interpretation and likely post-Christianisation. She is seen as old and haglike, which does not fit D&D's Queen of Air and Darkness (or Auril, really), nor do I see a direct connection between the Cailleach and the Houseman poem or TH White's novel (where the title directly references Queen Morgause, *not* the Cailleach or a faerie). Poul Anderson's story (which I have not read) seems to be the first connection between the title and faerie type creatures. As I said, the *entity* of the Queen of Air and Darkness seems to be an original creation of Carl Sargent, who just re-used the name from earlier work (pretty typical not just of D&D; Shakespeare did it himself with Titania). I'd need to see some scholarly analysis of Houseman's poem that clearly shows the title was not his creation, and I have not come across such.

Regardless, I strongly dislike merging well-documented deities, even if they share some commonalities (which as I have said do not exist IMO for these two); when disparate deities are merged over extremely tenuous and questionable reasons, I strongly disapprove.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
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Baltas
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Poland
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Posted - 27 Feb 2015 :  02:15:07  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, I get it, although I think there is a connection. Cailleach is described as a winter goddess, and as the Sister of Aine, the Goddess of Summer(in The Hunt of Slieve Cuilinn, although in general, she's rather thought as a sister of sorts to Brigid). Aine may be also the inspiration for Titania, as the she was refered as the Queen of Elves/Faeries...The similarity in the motive of sisters is interesting, aspecialy that Aine was benevolent, and Cailleach rather somewhat malevolent. Bheur also refers to Cailleach's connection to winter. As I wrote, Cailleach may appear as either a Hag, or beautiful young woman. In Of Sex and Faerie: Further essays on Genre Fiction, it's theorized that the goddess of atmosphere and darkness to which the title "Queen of Air and Darkness" reffered, was in fact Cailleach. From what I read, it references as taking this information from A Dictionary of Fairies by Katharine Mary Briggs(1976), so that source may also connect the two, but I'm not sure, not possesing the book. Houseman's entity is also I think meant to be a Faerie of sorts. Another interesting fact is that our fellow scribe snowblood, also named the Queen of Air and Darkness Cailleach, in his Arnothoi project
http://phasai.deviantart.com/art/Arnothoi-183977732

So I wonder if he encountered similar information as I did.

But returning to my question, what the relationship between Cegilune and The Queen of Air and Darkness, will be in your project?

[EDIT]

And as I mentioned above, Brian R. James also introduced in the article about Auril realm the Bheur Hags, that are definitely named after Cailleach(Cailleach Bheur), so he also may encountered material that tied together the Queen of Air and Darkness and Cailleach. Although that's just my musings, and in general, I'm more curious about Cegilune and The Queen of Air and Darkness now.

Edited by - Baltas on 27 Feb 2015 07:18:37
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AuldDragon
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Posted - 27 Feb 2015 :  07:38:54  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

But returning to my question, what the relationship between Cegilune and The Queen of Air and Darkness, will be in your project?


I honestly have no idea; I haven't been thinking about those deities very deeply yet. It's unlikely to be substantial.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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