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T O P I C    R E V I E W
AuldDragon Posted - 12 Feb 2014 : 10:35:26
I've been a huge fan of the Faiths & Avatars format created by Julia Martin and Eric Boyd, and I always wanted a fourth book to be published, companion to Faiths & Avatars, Powers & Pantheons, and Demihuman Deities. Since there's no chance now of seeing an official one, I decided to create my own, updating the deities from DMGR4 Monster Mythology, as well as some others. I write these from the point of view of 2nd Edition, incorporating primarily only that canon, and focusing on the whole 2e multiverse, so where possible, I mention canon from all 2nd Edition settings. I post the main entries on my blog, and then will update this thread.

Bugbear (and Other) Pantheon:
Grankhul the Hunter: http://bit.ly/1TTie59
Hruggek the Decapitator: http://bit.ly/1XX3cus
Meriadar the Patient One: http://bit.ly/1RTjyNC
Skiggaret the Deranged One: http://bit.ly/1X3bgdU
Stalker, the Hateful Shadow: http://bit.ly/1O7VbB3

Goblin Pantheon:
Bargrivyek the Peacekeeper: http://bit.ly/1U3efkG
Khugorbaeyag the Overseer: http://bit.ly/24ne4Cb
Maglubiyet the Mighty One: http://bit.ly/1TNW2UB
Nomog-Geaya the General: http://bit.ly/1ss21aV

Kobold and Urd Pantheon:
Dakarnok the Raider: http://bit.ly/1UBjZAN
Gaknulak the Trapmaker: http://bit.ly/1TTjqVU
Kuraulyek the Horned Thief: http://bit.ly/1PaE0de
Kurtulmak the Cunning: http://bit.ly/1PsgPAp

Orcish Pantheon:
Bahgtru the Leg-Breaker: http://bit.ly/1UmIK0I
Gruumsh One-Eye: http://bit.ly/1VCla5n
Ilneval the Horde Leader: http://bit.ly/24nfwV7
Luthic the Cave Mother: http://bit.ly/1UBjd6N
Shargaas the Night Lord: http://bit.ly/1sTJO5O
Yurtrus White-Hands: http://bit.ly/25FbI7s

The Ordning:
Annam the All-Father: http://bit.ly/1U0cJOR
Diancastra, the Wanton Wanderer: http://bit.ly/1PaEzUo
Grolantor the Steading Lord: http://bit.ly/1U3fGQ5
Grond Peaksmasher: http://bit.ly/24nggt6
Hiatea the Huntress: http://bit.ly/1XpIe9p
Iallanis the Tender One: http://bit.ly/1X3cvd4
Karontor the Deformed One: http://bit.ly/1O7VU5v
Memnor the Deceiver: http://bit.ly/1UBjLcS
Skoreaus Stonebones, the Living Rock: http://bit.ly/1UBjLcS
Stronmaus the Storm Lord: http://bit.ly/289ALyn
Surtr the Black: http://bit.ly/289ABqP
Thrym, the King of Ice: http://bit.ly/25Corob

Gnoll Pantheon:
Gorellik the Loner: http://bit.ly/1UBjXZy
Refnara the Moon-Biter: http://bit.ly/1PspJ11
Yeenoghu the Demon Prince of Gnolls: http://bit.ly/1UBk87a

Ogre Pantheon:
Mirklak the Orcslayer: http://bit.ly/1VCpPnK
Vaprak the Destroyer: http://bit.ly/1TTm1zk
Ysshara the Lorekeeper: http://bit.ly/1t7fJk7

Interlopers on the Giant Pantheon:
Baphomet, Demon Lord of Minotaurs: http://bit.ly/1U3lSrf
Kostchtchie, the Demon Prince of Wrath: http://bit.ly/1XpQeHa

Draconic Pantheon (Io's Children):
Aasterinian, the Messenger of Io: http://bit.ly/1XpQuWH
Arcanic the Learned: http://bit.ly/1WzDlK9
Astilabor the Hoardmistress: http://bit.ly/1PaJGDQ
Bahamut the Platinum Dragon: http://bit.ly/2gcEmW6
Chronepsis the Death Dragon: http://bit.ly/1O7Yx7l
Elemtia the Tempest: http://bit.ly/1U3m1uJ
Faluzure the Night Dragon: http://bit.ly/1ZcdvtA
Garyx the Firelord: http://bit.ly/1X3g6In
Hlal the Jester: http://bit.ly/2aI5MoG
Io the Ninefold Dragon: http://bit.ly/2iuNgmv
Kalzareinad, The Keeper of Dark Wonders: http://bit.ly/1VCqHc5
Kereska Wonderbringer: http://bit.ly/2fbhbMv
Lendys the Balancer: http://bit.ly/1U3nzos
Rais, The Cogitative One: http://bit.ly/20Y18Sg
Sardior the Ruby Dragon: http://bit.ly/2bMvFiS
Tamara the Merciful: http://bit.ly/2dMW2KH
Task the Wrester: http://bit.ly/29aUTaK
Tiamat the Chromatic Dragon: http://bit.ly/22DC4Bx
Zorquan the High One: http://bit.ly/1UjK9W9

Aerial Deities:
Jazirian the Eternal Serpent: http://bit.ly/1UmSlo6
Koriel the Vigilant: http://bit.ly/2kszfGg
Stillsong the Singing Sphere: http://bit.ly/2pAAh5J

Aquatic Deities:
Anguileusis the Abiding One: http://bit.ly/2lcZsdz
Blibdoolpoolp
Demogorgon
Eadro
Ilxendren
Panzuriel
Persana
Sekolah
Surminare the Selkie Queen: http://bit.ly/2nsA7cU
Trishina the Waverider: http://bit.ly/1t7h0rg
Water Lion

Avian Deities:
Krocaa
Quorlinn
Remnis
Syranita, Mistress of the Aarakocra: http://bit.ly/2qFphWC

Reptilian and Amphibian Deities:
Laogzed
Merrshaulk
Parrafaire
Ramenos the Great Frog: http://bit.ly/1sTUIsi
Semuanya
Sess’Innek
Shekinester

Centaur Pantheon:
Brilros
Chitza-Atlan
Fanthros
Kheiron
Linroth
Naharra
Skerrit the Hoofed Lord: http://bit.ly/1t7gQQH

Lycanthrope Pantheon:
Balador
Daragor
Eshebala
Ferrix
Squerrik the Ratlord: http://bit.ly/24nmVDV

Dark Fae Powers:
Cegilune
The Queen of Air and Darkness

Seelie Court:
Caoimhin
Damh
Eachthighern
Emmantiensien
Fionnghuala the Mistress of Swans: http://bit.ly/20Y1bNS
Nathair Sgiathach
Oberon
Squelaichie
Titania
Verenestra

Beholder Pantheon:
Great Mother
Gzemnid

Deities “missing” from Demihuman Deities:
Diinkarazan
Diirinka
Klikral
Nebelun the Meddler: http://bit.ly/1TO1req

Illithid Pantheon:
Ilsensine
Maanzecorian

Undead Deities:
Kanchelsis
Mellifleur

Miscellaneous Underdark Deities:
The Dark God
The Elder Elemental God
Juiblex
Piscaethces
Psilofyr
25   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
AuldDragon Posted - 03 Jun 2017 : 16:21:21
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

Syranita, Mistress of the Aarakocra: http://bit.ly/2qFphWC


Domain Name:           Olympus/Whistledge

Isn't it supposed to be on the border of Arborea and Ysgard, rather than just a part of a big layer?



Both can be true. The planes are infinite, so it's a metaphysical border rather than a physical one. It is the portion of Olympus that is most like Ysgard, and where it is easiest to get to Ysgard. But her realm is still fully within the layer of Olympus. Check Planes of Chaos for how it is described, and the realm format follows the lists in On Hallowed Ground.

Jeff
TBeholder Posted - 03 Jun 2017 : 11:09:35
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

Syranita, Mistress of the Aarakocra: http://bit.ly/2qFphWC


Domain Name:           Olympus/Whistledge

Isn't it supposed to be on the border of Arborea and Ysgard, rather than just a part of a big layer?
Markustay Posted - 02 Jun 2017 : 16:16:59
Will you be writing-up Covfefe "the Dark Whisperer"?
sleyvas Posted - 02 Jun 2017 : 13:10:14
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Hmmm, thank you. I had not noted Krocaa before. I'm naming him "the golden-feathered god of defense and aerial combat". Only source I saw him in was dragon #124.


That's the only source I've seen, even among later material that often scoured old publications for information. I see Krocaa encompassing hunting as well, so while he isn't aggressive by any means, he's very much a martial type deity.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

BTW, offhand, is there any particular deity for harpies that you've seen? I want to say there were some demon lords (maybe the ones for succubi.. maybe Demogorgon), but was wondering if there was any evil fey or somesuch you've seen associated with harpies, as they seem less fiendish and more fey.


I would go with the Greek goddess Eris, as she was sometimes depicted as harpy-like. Otherwise, the Queen of Air and Darkness or Cegilune could suffice.

Jeff



Good point, I'll throw hunting on him as well. He's described as having scarlet plumage on his head, so may want to come up with a story for that.

QoA&D... good idea. Also, I hadn't really located the harpies in what I'm looking at, so Cegilune may work if they're around hags. Thank you.
AuldDragon Posted - 02 Jun 2017 : 01:09:52
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

This is interesting in that it ties in nicely to my 'lava-light theory' of godhood. That the 'stuff' of godhood is actually finite, so in order for one to arise, another must fall (there is only so much 'divine power' to go around). But its even more complicated than that - all of that 'divine stuff' that floating around in the universe is much like that crap floating around inside a lava-lap - it breaks apart, it reforms, it makes smaller pieces, it combines into greater ones


My view is that since the planes are infinite, there are an infinite number of mortal inhabitants of those planes, and they have an infinite number of deities.

BUT, there are also infinitely more infinite mortals than there are infinite deities. And yes, it should make your brain hurt. :D

Jeff
AuldDragon Posted - 02 Jun 2017 : 01:01:03
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Hmmm, thank you. I had not noted Krocaa before. I'm naming him "the golden-feathered god of defense and aerial combat". Only source I saw him in was dragon #124.


That's the only source I've seen, even among later material that often scoured old publications for information. I see Krocaa encompassing hunting as well, so while he isn't aggressive by any means, he's very much a martial type deity.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

BTW, offhand, is there any particular deity for harpies that you've seen? I want to say there were some demon lords (maybe the ones for succubi.. maybe Demogorgon), but was wondering if there was any evil fey or somesuch you've seen associated with harpies, as they seem less fiendish and more fey.


I would go with the Greek goddess Eris, as she was sometimes depicted as harpy-like. Otherwise, the Queen of Air and Darkness or Cegilune could suffice.

Jeff
Markustay Posted - 02 Jun 2017 : 00:32:44
This is interesting in that it ties in nicely to my 'lava-light theory' of godhood. That the 'stuff' of godhood is actually finite, so in order for one to arise, another must fall (there is only so much 'divine power' to go around). But its even more complicated than that - all of that 'divine stuff' that floating around in the universe is much like that crap floating around inside a lava-lap - it breaks apart, it reforms, it makes smaller pieces, it combines into greater ones - that how I picture godhood working. All these gods absorbing/combining with each other, and breaking apart (Tyche into Beshaba and Tymora, for example), and also all those 'conjoined/tripartite deities. Thus, the cosmology is a lava-lamp. forever evolving into new things, some of which may be reminiscent of older things, and some 'brand new', but the truth is, it all part of the some glob of stuff that just keeps swirling around and reforming.

Thasmudyan is an older globlet that got absorbed into the newer velsharoon, is all. So while mortals may think one took the place of the other, the truth is that Thasmudyan is still in there somewhere, and could respawn again at some point. Similar things have happened many times before, like in the case where Selvetarm absorbed Zanassu (and he was corrupted by it).
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Stillsong is certainly one of the weirder powers out there.

I was thinking a bit more on Mellifleur; one of the thoughts I have is that while Mellifleur isn't worshipped, he's actually respected among liches as a sort of senior professor among their kind. To a lesser extent, so is Velsharoon (though Faerunian liches acknowledge Velsharoon above Mellifleur). The worship of the undead is a tepid thing, but Mellifleur and Velsharoon, as academic deities who cheerfully encourage no-holds-barred, anything-goes research, are especially attractive not just to liches but to any serious undead spellcaster.

It's also why nobody likes Kyuss, because I can't see intelligent undead having anything other than disdain for a god of undeath who encourages them to annihilate the cattle/research subjects.

The Complete Book of Necromancers is actually set in Toril, and though Velsharoon isn't mentioned, an ascended baatezu by the name of Thasmudyan is mentioned to be a god of undeath living in Carceri. His decline in prominence seems to be tied to Velsharoon's rise; did the Archmage of Necromancy subsume him?



Wow, that's weird that you mention Thasmudyan and Velsharoon. Some of the early history that I had worked up for Velsharoon BEFORE he helped start the red wizard uprising had him actually visiting the isle of Sehu (sp?). I had it that that's where he learned the skills of a dread necromancer (the 3.5e version, as I had his mortal form to be a triple classed non-specialist wizard/dread necromancer/binder with anima mage and some other prestige class that built both arcane school <maybe ultimate magus>). I didn't ever build more into him for the location..... and man, I just realized I started writing a short story back in 2011 and never finished it.
'Sahu'
sleyvas Posted - 02 Jun 2017 : 00:25:15
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

Syranita, Mistress of the Aarakocra: http://bit.ly/2qFphWC

The only non-aquatic member of Deep Sashelas’s asathalfinare, Syranita is the protector-goddess of the aarakocra. She is an excellent diplomat, and is always on the look out for new allies to help protect her gentle race.

Jeff



Hmmm, thank you. I had not noted Krocaa before. I'm naming him "the golden-feathered god of defense and aerial combat". Only source I saw him in was dragon #124.

BTW, offhand, is there any particular deity for harpies that you've seen? I want to say there were some demon lords (maybe the ones for succubi.. maybe Demogorgon), but was wondering if there was any evil fey or somesuch you've seen associated with harpies, as they seem less fiendish and more fey.
AuldDragon Posted - 01 Jun 2017 : 17:49:21
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh

I continue to be amazed by your work. Kudos for your patience and persistence!



Thanks! :D

Jeff
xaeyruudh Posted - 01 Jun 2017 : 17:32:32
I continue to be amazed by your work. Kudos for your patience and persistence!
AuldDragon Posted - 01 Jun 2017 : 17:00:49
Syranita, Mistress of the Aarakocra: http://bit.ly/2qFphWC

The only non-aquatic member of Deep Sashelas’s asathalfinare, Syranita is the protector-goddess of the aarakocra. She is an excellent diplomat, and is always on the look out for new allies to help protect her gentle race.

Jeff
sleyvas Posted - 03 May 2017 : 17:57:55
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Stillsong is certainly one of the weirder powers out there.

I was thinking a bit more on Mellifleur; one of the thoughts I have is that while Mellifleur isn't worshipped, he's actually respected among liches as a sort of senior professor among their kind. To a lesser extent, so is Velsharoon (though Faerunian liches acknowledge Velsharoon above Mellifleur). The worship of the undead is a tepid thing, but Mellifleur and Velsharoon, as academic deities who cheerfully encourage no-holds-barred, anything-goes research, are especially attractive not just to liches but to any serious undead spellcaster.

It's also why nobody likes Kyuss, because I can't see intelligent undead having anything other than disdain for a god of undeath who encourages them to annihilate the cattle/research subjects.

The Complete Book of Necromancers is actually set in Toril, and though Velsharoon isn't mentioned, an ascended baatezu by the name of Thasmudyan is mentioned to be a god of undeath living in Carceri. His decline in prominence seems to be tied to Velsharoon's rise; did the Archmage of Necromancy subsume him?



Wow, that's weird that you mention Thasmudyan and Velsharoon. Some of the early history that I had worked up for Velsharoon BEFORE he helped start the red wizard uprising had him actually visiting the isle of Sehu (sp?). I had it that that's where he learned the skills of a dread necromancer (the 3.5e version, as I had his mortal form to be a triple classed non-specialist wizard/dread necromancer/binder with anima mage and some other prestige class that built both arcane school <maybe ultimate magus>). I didn't ever build more into him for the location..... and man, I just realized I started writing a short story back in 2011 and never finished it.
LordofBones Posted - 03 May 2017 : 05:46:28
Stillsong is certainly one of the weirder powers out there.

I was thinking a bit more on Mellifleur; one of the thoughts I have is that while Mellifleur isn't worshipped, he's actually respected among liches as a sort of senior professor among their kind. To a lesser extent, so is Velsharoon (though Faerunian liches acknowledge Velsharoon above Mellifleur). The worship of the undead is a tepid thing, but Mellifleur and Velsharoon, as academic deities who cheerfully encourage no-holds-barred, anything-goes research, are especially attractive not just to liches but to any serious undead spellcaster.

It's also why nobody likes Kyuss, because I can't see intelligent undead having anything other than disdain for a god of undeath who encourages them to annihilate the cattle/research subjects.

The Complete Book of Necromancers is actually set in Toril, and though Velsharoon isn't mentioned, an ascended baatezu by the name of Thasmudyan is mentioned to be a god of undeath living in Carceri. His decline in prominence seems to be tied to Velsharoon's rise; did the Archmage of Necromancy subsume him?
AuldDragon Posted - 02 May 2017 : 02:45:30
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

planewalker.com refers to Monster Mythology, Planes of Conflict and On Hallowed Ground.



Ah good, I remembered correctly. :)

He's only mentioned in On Hallowed Ground in the lists in the back.

Jeff
TBeholder Posted - 01 May 2017 : 21:35:55
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

and gets a discussion in *I think* the Planes of Conflict boxed set for Planescape. He's in one of them, I just can't remember exactly which one.

planewalker.com refers to Monster Mythology, Planes of Conflict and On Hallowed Ground.
AuldDragon Posted - 01 May 2017 : 20:50:15
Stillsong has an entry in Monster Mythology (if I don't mention a source for a deity, it's likely from DMGR4), and gets a discussion in *I think* the Planes of Conflict boxed set for Planescape. He's in one of them, I just can't remember exactly which one.

Jeff
Markustay Posted - 01 May 2017 : 18:58:05
Very cool - is that something new you've come up with, or was it from something?

If I used IMG, I'd also add something akin to Ghost Rider's 'Penance Stare' for evil creatures hearing its song.
AuldDragon Posted - 01 May 2017 : 17:01:27
Stillsong the Singing Sphere: http://bit.ly/2pAAh5J

Stillsong is a very unusual entity, apparently transitioning from one state to another. What he was before, and what he is to become is unknown. He grants no spells and has no priesthood, and represents a wandering benevolent force throughout the planes.

Jeff
LordofBones Posted - 21 Apr 2017 : 10:19:15
*massages temples*

Saint Bane is a paladin of Pelor who was elevated to hero-deity status after slaying a powerful servant of Orcus and heavily wounding Orcus himself, and the patron of all those who hunt the undead. He's a Flan power and saint, and has nothing to do with the greater power Bane - no more than the 4e Bane has anything to do with the Faerunian Bane.

I mean, this has meandered into the ridiculous now. Nerull was still alive and well until 4e decided to wipe him off the map alongside Istus, Boccob, Hextor, Wee Jas and so many others, and he's back again in 5e, with the Raven Queen no longer mentioned.

Also, that "ancient goddess Tomeri" is a Zakharan goddess, if I'm not mistaken.
KanzenAU Posted - 21 Apr 2017 : 08:56:35
I'd argue if anything an Exarch is exponentially more powerful than a Sundering Chosen - for instance, Fzoul was an exarch, and very powerful; yet check out this quote on the Sundering Chosen from Legacy of the Crystal Shard:
quote:
The Chosen active in the Sundering are not necessarily powerful, high-level characters—in a time such as this, even the least servants can make significant differences. Most of them have only minor abilities granted by their deities. A Chosen of Amaunator might have darkvision or be able to stave of the worst of the effects of the cold. A Chosen of Moradin might have enhanced dwarf racial abilities. Being a Chosen shouldn’t be unbalancing to the game.

I'm currently half-way through The Adversary, and at one point a character makes it very clear she doesn't like the term "Chosen" for those favoured by the gods during the Sundering. They're special, but they're not THAT special.

I definitely don't think Sundering Chosen and the word "demipower" should be mentioned anywhere near each other. Even favoured seems a bit much for some of these folks, because the deities' attentions are all spread so thinly - perhaps "The Very Slightly Favoured" might be a better term.

Exarchs were also more powerful entities than even all the pre-Sundering Chosen (who weren't exarchs themselves), as pointed out on p72 of the 4e FRCG. I would argue that almost all exarchs would be considered demigods if using that term (or perhaps Planescape-style "proxies" in some cases), but I don't think any non-exarch Chosen could be considered demigods.
Markustay Posted - 21 Apr 2017 : 05:05:16
Re-reading all of that, its almost like 'Banes' are multi-spheric, anti-Chosen.

And just like what they did in the 4e/5e Sundering (which I really dislike), there could be all different powered 'Banes' running loose in the multiverse, just as there are Chosen. There's quite a bit of room within the title 'demigod' (the levels 0-5 DvR). A zeroeth level 'Bane' (or Chosen for that matter) would be little more than a 'Superhero' type character, a'la Hercules, while a 5th lvl DvR would be practically a lesser god (with all the 'bells & whistles' that go with that). Very few of them would be Mystra-class Chosen (who were probably all lev. 5's back in the day). It takes a lot of power to create chosen (I would imagine its something akin to loosing one of your avatars), so most gods would not have the power to spare like that (as Mystra would have had).

I really wish the Sundering novels would have used something other than 'Chosen', which now means the same thing as exarch, I suppose. It basically just means 'larger than life' (more than mortal) - demipower status levs 0-5 DvR. We could have created five or six specific names for each 'rank' within the exarch tier. For example, maybe lev 0 should be 'Exalted', and level 1 could be 'Ascended', etc. They should have saved 'Chosen' for level 5.

0 Exarch
1 Exalted
2 Ascended
3 Saint
4 Seraph
5 Chosen

Something like that could have worked, but two of those have become generic for the whole group. Too bad 'Archon' is in use elsewhere. What was that word in PS - 'Proxie'? Except I'm thinking that would have to be the highest level, even over 'Chosen'. Then we can ditch Exarch and push the others down. Each level would require different amounts of power-expenditure on the part of the 'investing' god. I suppose more than one god could work together (maybe thats why Mystra gets so many - she works with the other deities that are part of the Harper sponsors).

So now I am wondering if a Magister would fit in there, maybe as a Saint or Seraph? I'm pretty sure they fall below 'Chosen'.

Thus, with this new format, Exarch would just = 'Agent' (of a god).

EDIT:
Looking it over, now I'm thinking that perhaps Chosen shouldn't be at the top, Saint should be, and maybe a 'Proxie' is just the planer term for Saints. Of course, that means I am (at least) one title shy again.

EDIT2:
Thesaurus is my best friend.

0 Favored (Blessed)
1 Paragon/Exemplar (Sacrosanct)
2 Exalted (Ascended)
3 Seraph (Transcendent)
4 Saint/Prophet (Hallowed)
5 Proxie/Demigod/Archite (Anointed)

Thus, 'Exarch' and 'Chosen' can be used for the entire spectrum, but the former is more often used for the low end of the tier, and the latter for the high end of the tier (but any position would be still considered correct - they are generic terms for the whole group).

Now I feel better and can go to bed.
sleyvas Posted - 21 Apr 2017 : 02:54:07
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Holy crap!!! Guess what I just found on Wikipedia regarding Orcus?

quote:

The article "Setting Saintly Standards" by Scott Bennie in Dragon #79 (November 1983) mentions on page 29 that Saint Bane the Scourger attacked and nearly slew Orcus on his home plane; for his valor, Bane was rewarded with sainthood.


What the heck... its almost like they had this planned all the way back in 1983!

If the 'Banes' were his seeded offspring, one of them - Saint Bane - may have helped The Raven Queen kill Nerull, thus causing part of the paradox that created Orcus.

Do I win an original signed copy of Chainmail now? I solved D&D.

EDIT:
Further reading now has me wanting to reconcile Kiaransalee with The Raven Queen (in my homebrew stuff I have it where Graz'zt was originally Auraushnee's {Lotlth} brother, so I really like where all of this is taking me now).

EDIT2: I need to start a new/separate scroll. This is getting just TOO GOOD. Orcus is Tenebrous, and Tenebrous killed and absorbed an aspect of an ancient love goddess named Tomeri. What if THAT goddess was the archtype for the love/beauty goddesses I was talking abut in another thread? Maybe Sune getting involved in cosmic politics and helping to imprison Cyric wasn't so out-of-character as I had thought.

EDIT3:
...and Orcus and The Raven Queen hate each other's guts - how could a fairly 'newly arisen power' like the RQ have 'ancient enmities' with Orcus? The deeper I dig, the more my wild theories are making sense. Both of them have had other names, and they are enemies with all the right people for much of this to work (not that it take much to enemies with an archfiend LOL).

All these 'undead gods' are all part of some sort of looping paradox, and thats how they can exist when they shouldn't.



Yeah, I went there with the Raven Queen and Kiaransalee for a while too. I was playing with the general idea that she forgot who she was and had a made up identity come into play against her own will.
Markustay Posted - 20 Apr 2017 : 18:40:05
Holy crap!!! Guess what I just found on Wikipedia regarding Orcus?

quote:

The article "Setting Saintly Standards" by Scott Bennie in Dragon #79 (November 1983) mentions on page 29 that Saint Bane the Scourger attacked and nearly slew Orcus on his home plane; for his valor, Bane was rewarded with sainthood.


What the heck... its almost like they had this planned all the way back in 1983!

If the 'Banes' were his seeded offspring, one of them - Saint Bane - may have helped The Raven Queen kill Nerull, thus causing part of the paradox that created Orcus.

Do I win an original signed copy of Chainmail now? I solved D&D.

EDIT:
Further reading now has me wanting to reconcile Kiaransalee with The Raven Queen (in my homebrew stuff I have it where Graz'zt was originally Auraushnee's {Lotlth} brother, so I really like where all of this is taking me now).

EDIT2: I need to start a new/separate scroll. This is getting just TOO GOOD. Orcus is Tenebrous, and Tenebrous killed and absorbed an aspect of an ancient love goddess named Tomeri. What if THAT goddess was the archtype for the love/beauty goddesses I was talking abut in another thread? Maybe Sune getting involved in cosmic politics and helping to imprison Cyric wasn't so out-of-character as I had thought.

EDIT3:
...and Orcus and The Raven Queen hate each other's guts - how could a fairly 'newly arisen power' like the RQ have 'ancient enmities' with Orcus? The deeper I dig, the more my wild theories are making sense. Both of them have had other names, and they are enemies with all the right people for much of this to work (not that it takes much to be enemies with an archfiend LOL).

All these 'undead gods' are all part of some sort of looping paradox, and thats how they can exist when they shouldn't.
Markustay Posted - 20 Apr 2017 : 18:15:02
Well, to reference my above post (where I forgot to make this point therein) - there are (at least) TWO Banes, technically (some might say three, counting Iyatchu Xvim).

Archtype 'Mellifleur' may have borrowed power from archtype (Core) 'Bane', and 'scholars' could just be assuming the Bane involved was FR's Bane (who may - and probably is - the 'original' {primary} Bane). Or a 'Bane' from yet another world (that would actually make more sense, because the only time FR's Bane wouldn't have been 'THE Bane' would be during Xvim's tenure).

The only other way this all makes sense is if Talos was Bane (another avatar/aspect?) On some levels that would also make Bane Gruumsh, and although thats a fun possibility, its starting to become convoluted again. I personally like toying with the idea that the original Bane (FR's Bane) was the offspring of Orcus and a human female (thus his half-orc visage). Of course, that's not relevant to the conversation (although it could be, if we tried to also bring Orcus back into this, in some sort of relative way).

Which is funny, because I've always toyed with the idea of Orcus having originally been part of the Orc pantheon (just because of the name). It may be possible to reconcile everything if we also say Orcus is either another aspect/Ubertar of Gruumsh who was killed-off on some world, but managed to somehow stay in a half-life state, and HE is actually the Archtype, and Mellifleur AND Velsharoon are both aspects of him. Or Orcus was the original 'Bane', who was killed, and now all the 'little Banes' (including FR's) are now autonomous because of the weird set of circumstances surrounding a deity and undeath (something that should not be possible - just look what having an undead clone did to Manshhoon's own clones). This reminds me of an episode of Buffy, when 'The Slayer' died, and a new one was activated... except Buffy was brought back and there was a 'glitch' that enabled two slayers to be active at once.

So maybe when Gruumsh was Talos for a time, thats when he 'helped' Velsharoon (although the timeline would be off). Still not perfect, because Grummsh is not Bane (even if there is a 'familial' resemblance).

Just checked Wikipedia - what if Nerull was the first 'Bane' ("The bane of mankind")? It says that The Raven Queen killed him in 4e. What if the baneling (*ugh*) that he seeded on Oerth then took up his Bane mantel, in much the same way Xvim did on Toril? Timeline-wise that works, I think. Nerull has all these little 'Banes' running around, similar to how Asmodeus has all his archfiends under him, and then he gets blind-sided by the Raven Queen (who may or may not be in FR in 5e), and all his offspring are freed to do as they please. Some continue to work under the guise of 'Bane', while others try to make changes to their religions (heck, one may have even 'gone good' for all we know). The makes being 'a Bane' more like a title, and some have just chosen to keep it now (as FR's Bane has - it works because we really don't know if that was his real name while mortal... I doubt it).

So... ummm... did I just figure out that Velsharoon may have been a 'failed Bane'?

And if so, does that make Mellifleur one as well? And why? Could it be Nerull was killed by the Raven Queen (sometime just prior to 4e) while he was raising these two up? Is that why they wound-up as 'undead gods'? Now I want to connect him to Orcus even more (after poking fun at Sleyvas for going this route ) The only way I can see all of this working is that when she killed Nerull - probably sometime in the 1e/2e/3e era - he had contingencies in effect, and also because of his multispheric status he couldn't truly 'die', so instead he was cast back in time and became Orcus.

And if I wanted to weave all of this further together, and use some of my 'Theory of everything' Over-cosmology, then Nerull might be Gruumsh's father, making him Mćlkith the Accursed (all Dökkálfar - the proto-orcs, NOT drow). Considering his temperament, that makes prefect sense to me. Thus 'Orcus' is actually the 'father of orckind', which is really cool. I guess Nerull and Orcus always avoided each other to avoid any paradoxes. LOL
LordofBones Posted - 20 Apr 2017 : 08:13:47
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Or Mellifleur isn't worshiped in Toril. Really, Mellifleur isn't worshipped anywhere. Neither is Kanchelsis.

Mellifleur seems to be making a name for himself as a mentor-figure for liches, while Kanchelsis draws power from vampires and vampirism. Chances are that liches deviated to Myrkul, Jergal and other undead-friendly deities before Velsharoon's ascension. It could explain why Velsharoon's using Mellifleur's name; Ao's decree constrains him, so he's looking into ways to expand as a multispheric deity of black necromancy.



Couple problems with that. Mellifleur is noted as being in Toril in the document where he's first created with a relation to Bane. So, he was here. Many liches may have worshipped some other deity besides Mellifleur (hell, why not Shar, Hoar, Talos, etc...), but it wouldn't have been Myrkul or Jergal really at the time of Velsharoon's ascension, since that was 1368 and Myrkul was dead and Jergal was little known.

The part where Mellifleur would have lost power due to lack of worshippers would have only been after the ToT (1358). Prior to that, at least in Toril, he would have been able to survive SOMEHOW just because he was a god (guessing Ao gave out divine welfare to those beings which became a god but couldn't support themselves in the years prior to the ToT). I can actually see vampires and hags worshipping Kanchelsis and Cegilune (they'd be lean mind you, but...), whereas in theory liches are a lot more rare AND a lot more likely to choose a different deity.




It's worth noting that Monster Mythology states he may have siphoned power from Bane, not that he's actually worshipped in Toril. Mellifleur is called out as being a deity without any priests, so Torilian liches probably know him as an abstract figure rather than a true god.

Mellifleur may not even want to be worshipped in Toril, since it'd put him in Bane's crosshairs. Nerull is at least far more distant, and hates Mellifleur the way he hates everybody else.

Maybe, however, the truth is something else: Mellifleur arranged for Velsharoon's divinity, because as god of liches, Mellifleur is empowered by successful lichdom. Velsharoon doesn't actually compete with Mellifleur, but his portfolio complements Mellifleur's.

Or maybe they're just housemates who don't see each other much other than a muttered 'hello" when they come out of their tower/crypt for a cup of larva coffee.

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