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Razz
Senior Scribe

USA
712 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2014 :  18:27:22  Show Profile  Visit Razz's Homepage  Send Razz an AOL message Send Razz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I know if you Google Thomas Costa for the Realms-L Archive you'll find some monstrous deity write ups there as well as Mulhorand ones like Anubis and Apep I think.
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Razz
Senior Scribe

USA
712 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2014 :  21:56:39  Show Profile  Visit Razz's Homepage  Send Razz an AOL message Send Razz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here are a couple of links. Thomas Costa and Thomas Rinschler wrote some of these up long ago.

Ancient Gods

Other Monstrous Deities
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
209 Posts

Posted - 01 Aug 2014 :  08:19:19  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks, it's always interesting to see how other people handled the same things I've done.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
1357 Posts

Posted - 01 Aug 2014 :  14:55:10  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is fantastic AuldDragon. I would love to see what you do with the Dragon Gods and how you would make Monster Mythology sync with the draconomicon... I await that eagerly :P
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
209 Posts

Posted - 15 Aug 2014 :  11:32:44  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mirklak the Orcslayer: http://blog.aulddragon.com/2014/08/mirklak-the-orcslayer/

I found a brief mention of Mirklak the Orcslayer in The Great Gray Land of Thar booklet of Elminster’s Ecologies. The description of the ogres in that land, as well as the section on their gods, offered great fodder for expanding ogre culture and faith. In particular, the additional deities of the ogres, the ancient kingdom of the ogres, and the depiction of Vaprak as wholly ogrish rather than a mix of ogre and troll gave me the idea that the Thar ogres are actually descended from ancient spelljamming colonists, perhaps from the ogre empire that appears to be in the sphere of the Steel Star. Regarding Mirklak, I made him an amalgam of the various ogre heroes mentioned, and to whom all deified ogre heroes merge with.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
209 Posts

Posted - 01 Dec 2014 :  06:23:39  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ysshara the Lorekeeper: http://blog.aulddragon.com/2014/12/ysshara-the-lorekeeper/

Like Mirklak, Ysshara received a brief mention in the Great Grey Land of Thar booklet of Elminster's Ecologies. With Mirklak and Vaprak, the three deities form a nice small pantheon for ogres, and I felt I needed to give considerable depth to her, so she didn't seem like just an ogre version of the orcish Luthic. Ysshara turned into what I think is a very interesting deity, with considerable potential to make ogres into a more well-rounded race in any AD&D campaign.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5240 Posts

Posted - 01 Dec 2014 :  12:43:43  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Speaking of Thar, has there ever been established a link between the orc homeland of Thar in the realms and the other orc homeland of Thar in Mystara (from TSR's GAZ10 - Orcs of Thar).

I am intrigued by there being these additional ogre gods. I went and looked up the mentions as a result.

Vaprak and the Gods
Like other ogre groups, the Thar tribes worship Vaprak, the mighty god of ogres. Normally portrayed as a gigantic, hideous ogre with exaggerated claws, eyes, and teeth, Vaprak is seen by the Thar ogres as a tall, surprisingly noble-looking individual clad in scale armor and carrying a mighty war hammer. This image of Vaprak has a long history, with some ancient artifacts recovered out of the wilderness portraying the ogre god in this manner. Invariably, he is shown vanquishing numerous enemies of various races.

Vaprak is served by a number of demigods and heroes unknown to other ogre tribes. Chief among these is the last Tharkul, Maulog. Ogre legends describe him as a brave and honorable ogre leader treacherously slain by a human assassin named Beldoran, #151;the same Beldoran called a hero among humans, and widely reputed to be the founder of Glister. It all depends on who you#146;re talking with,it seems.

Other servants of Vaprak include Ysshara, goddess of healing and heroic deeds; and Mirklak, another ancient hero reputed to have slain a thousand orcs in a single battle.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
209 Posts

Posted - 01 Dec 2014 :  13:06:05  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Speaking of Thar, has there ever been established a link between the orc homeland of Thar in the realms and the other orc homeland of Thar in Mystara (from TSR's GAZ10 - Orcs of Thar).

I am intrigued by there being these additional ogre gods. I went and looked up the mentions as a result.


There's no canon connection that I know of, but considering my personal views on the ogres of Thar, it would be very easy to make one. The ogres of Thar, IMO are clearly the remnant of a Spelljamming colony (deliberate or accidental, i.e. a crashed Ogre Mammoth or two). The unusual appearance of Vaprak and the additional gods, as well as the tribal names "Crystal Sphere" and "Falling Star" and their more sophisticated artwork is what leads me to this conclusion, as spelljamming humanoids tend to be more intelligent and organized than their groundling brethren.

I also think the Thar ogres preserve an earlier aspect of Vaprak, before he merged with a troll god to arrive at his present form and mentality (entirely my own speculation, there hasn't been any other mention of such a thing in existing canon). I'm actively working on the Vaprak write up now, and I'll be incorporating these ideas.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29792 Posts

Posted - 01 Dec 2014 :  16:52:12  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Speaking of Thar, has there ever been established a link between the orc homeland of Thar in the realms and the other orc homeland of Thar in Mystara (from TSR's GAZ10 - Orcs of Thar).

I am intrigued by there being these additional ogre gods. I went and looked up the mentions as a result.


There's no canon connection that I know of, but considering my personal views on the ogres of Thar, it would be very easy to make one. The ogres of Thar, IMO are clearly the remnant of a Spelljamming colony (deliberate or accidental, i.e. a crashed Ogre Mammoth or two). The unusual appearance of Vaprak and the additional gods, as well as the tribal names "Crystal Sphere" and "Falling Star" and their more sophisticated artwork is what leads me to this conclusion, as spelljamming humanoids tend to be more intelligent and organized than their groundling brethren.

I also think the Thar ogres preserve an earlier aspect of Vaprak, before he merged with a troll god to arrive at his present form and mentality (entirely my own speculation, there hasn't been any other mention of such a thing in existing canon). I'm actively working on the Vaprak write up now, and I'll be incorporating these ideas.

Jeff



That seems logical, though I'm not familiar enough with the Thar material to know those references...

But I will point out that the Known World was never officially connected to Spelljammer. I don't know enough about Mystara to comment on the possibility of spelljamming to or from there, but I know enough about Spelljammer to know the two were not officially connected.

(Of course, since spelljamming is possible in the Astral, if Mystara is connected to the Astral plane, then you could also take that angle)

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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
209 Posts

Posted - 01 Dec 2014 :  19:58:22  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

That seems logical, though I'm not familiar enough with the Thar material to know those references...

But I will point out that the Known World was never officially connected to Spelljammer. I don't know enough about Mystara to comment on the possibility of spelljamming to or from there, but I know enough about Spelljammer to know the two were not officially connected.

(Of course, since spelljamming is possible in the Astral, if Mystara is connected to the Astral plane, then you could also take that angle)



It's almost all from Elminster's Ecologies. I'm not aware of any better source for the ogres there.

Mystara was officially connected partially by being converted to 2nd edition (even Dark Sun is officially out there somewhere), but also via the First Quest product. It was designed as an introductory product and set in Mystara, and to show the variety of possible adventures in AD&D, one partially took place in low-Mystara-Orbit, and included a Giff from Bral. That adventure, or another one, also involved neogi. Very few details on Mystara's place in the cosmos were addressed, however.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5240 Posts

Posted - 02 Dec 2014 :  13:16:01  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Speaking of Thar, has there ever been established a link between the orc homeland of Thar in the realms and the other orc homeland of Thar in Mystara (from TSR's GAZ10 - Orcs of Thar).

I am intrigued by there being these additional ogre gods. I went and looked up the mentions as a result.


There's no canon connection that I know of, but considering my personal views on the ogres of Thar, it would be very easy to make one. The ogres of Thar, IMO are clearly the remnant of a Spelljamming colony (deliberate or accidental, i.e. a crashed Ogre Mammoth or two). The unusual appearance of Vaprak and the additional gods, as well as the tribal names "Crystal Sphere" and "Falling Star" and their more sophisticated artwork is what leads me to this conclusion, as spelljamming humanoids tend to be more intelligent and organized than their groundling brethren.

I also think the Thar ogres preserve an earlier aspect of Vaprak, before he merged with a troll god to arrive at his present form and mentality (entirely my own speculation, there hasn't been any other mention of such a thing in existing canon). I'm actively working on the Vaprak write up now, and I'll be incorporating these ideas.

Jeff




Oh, wow, Auld, I'd never noticed that before. I really need to go back through some of the 2nd edition lore. I was so young and poor back then that I may not have had the material to put many 2 and 2's together that I see in the rearview mirror now.


By the way, here's the quote you listed (Elminster's Ecologies, the Great Gray Land of Thar, page 19):

Dozens of ogre tribes inhabit the Great Gray Land.
They have names like Jade Skull, Vaprak#146;s Hammer,
Falling Star, and Crystal Sphere, all names
which hark back to the sophisticated civilization
the ogres once possessed.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13386 Posts

Posted - 02 Dec 2014 :  15:19:38  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
IN the 5e DMG, Mystara is one of the settings mentioned 'out there' in the D&D multiverse, which means it IS connected to everything else.

Some worlds have different 'physics' (Mystara's OD&D rules), while some are 'closed' (Athas), but even a 'closed' world is still connected (bits of Athas made it into Ravenloft, so it wasn't 'impenetrable').

Eberron was technically a 'closed' world/system, because its cosmology was completely different then the others linked together by the Great Wheel (even those that had no direct access to it, like Athas). However, in 5e its listed as one of the 'core worlds', right alongside Aebrynis (Birthright), which was another 'oddball'. Not sure what they did in that regard with EB and DS in 4e.

And then, of course, there is the triumverate - FR, GH, and DL. Thus, as of 5e, all of these worlds are considered part of the D&D multiverse canonically, and thus should be reachable from one-another, even if their crystal sphere is 'closed' (denied planer or Spelljamming access). I am sure Mystara had plenty of unofficial (Ed's Realms) connections to FR, but for a time TSR was trying to keep the fanbases separate (for OD&D and AD&D). They started moving The Known World into 2e, which was great, but they never blended the lore with the other settings, the way they did with most of them.

On another note - Blackmoor was in 3 official D&D settings; its own, plus GH and Mystara, and since GH is definitely connected to FR, thats just one more link, albeit tenuous.

EDIT: Geeze, I almost forgot the most obvious connection; halfings are called 'Hin' in both settings (mostly because we know Ed Greenwood did the halfings in both, but even without that meta-gaming knowledge, its still a canon factoid). Krynn's halflings are completely different, so on some levels, that would mean FR and KW (Known World/Mystara) are even more connected then FR and DL. We also got avariel and Areanea from that setting.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 02 Dec 2014 15:26:36
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
209 Posts

Posted - 03 Dec 2014 :  00:09:05  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Oh, wow, Auld, I'd never noticed that before. I really need to go back through some of the 2nd edition lore. I was so young and poor back then that I may not have had the material to put many 2 and 2's together that I see in the rearview mirror now.


By the way, here's the quote you listed (Elminster's Ecologies, the Great Gray Land of Thar, page 19):

Dozens of ogre tribes inhabit the Great Gray Land.
They have names like Jade Skull, Vaprak#146;s Hammer,
Falling Star, and Crystal Sphere, all names
which hark back to the sophisticated civilization
the ogres once possessed.



Yeah, it was the sort of thing that hit me like a lightning bolt when I was reading through that portion of Thar. It just flows so well together. I figure the Ogres of Thar were from the Ogre nation that is in the sphere of the Steel Star (mentioned in the SJ product Lost Ships, by Ed Greenwood himself). I doubt it was intended, but it just really fits together well. I should point out that Adam Miller (Nightdruid, one of the co-authors of Hackjammer) has taken the Steel Star in another direction, though.

One of the great things about PDF versions of all these 2e products is that it makes it so easy to just search for mentions of Vaprak and collect what people have written in the past.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
209 Posts

Posted - 03 Dec 2014 :  01:08:11  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

IN the 5e DMG, Mystara is one of the settings mentioned 'out there' in the D&D multiverse, which means it IS connected to everything else.

Some worlds have different 'physics' (Mystara's OD&D rules), while some are 'closed' (Athas), but even a 'closed' world is still connected (bits of Athas made it into Ravenloft, so it wasn't 'impenetrable').

Eberron was technically a 'closed' world/system, because its cosmology was completely different then the others linked together by the Great Wheel (even those that had no direct access to it, like Athas). However, in 5e its listed as one of the 'core worlds', right alongside Aebrynis (Birthright), which was another 'oddball'. Not sure what they did in that regard with EB and DS in 4e.

And then, of course, there is the triumverate - FR, GH, and DL. Thus, as of 5e, all of these worlds are considered part of the D&D multiverse canonically, and thus should be reachable from one-another, even if their crystal sphere is 'closed' (denied planer or Spelljamming access). I am sure Mystara had plenty of unofficial (Ed's Realms) connections to FR, but for a time TSR was trying to keep the fanbases separate (for OD&D and AD&D). They started moving The Known World into 2e, which was great, but they never blended the lore with the other settings, the way they did with most of them.

On another note - Blackmoor was in 3 official D&D settings; its own, plus GH and Mystara, and since GH is definitely connected to FR, thats just one more link, albeit tenuous.

EDIT: Geeze, I almost forgot the most obvious connection; halfings are called 'Hin' in both settings (mostly because we know Ed Greenwood did the halfings in both, but even without that meta-gaming knowledge, its still a canon factoid). Krynn's halflings are completely different, so on some levels, that would mean FR and KW (Known World/Mystara) are even more connected then FR and DL. We also got avariel and Areanea from that setting.



2nd Edition explicitly connected every setting in some way. They all connected to the Great Wheel, although the denizens of the worlds didn't always realize it, and there were sometimes additional barriers (Dark Sun and Birthright specifically had planar barriers); Birthright came too late to have anything written about Spelljamming in its sphere, but On Hallowed Ground pretty clearly inferred it is out there somewhere.

Mystara was not published long enough in 2e to get enough written about its planar connections, but most of the good-aligned Immortals did get planar realms in the list in the back of Warriors of Heaven. Also, while the Aranea did first appear in Mystara, the Avariel did not, as far as I know. They were a non-elf demihuman race in Dragon #51 called the Al Karak Elam with no fixed campaign setting; PHBR8 The Complete Book of Elves made them elves, and then Forgotten Realms added them to setting. Avariel (as Ee'aar) did not appear in Mystara until around 1996, with the Red Steel/Savage Coast/Orc's Head Peninsula products.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5240 Posts

Posted - 03 Dec 2014 :  13:19:41  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

IN the 5e DMG, Mystara is one of the settings mentioned 'out there' in the D&D multiverse, which means it IS connected to everything else.

Some worlds have different 'physics' (Mystara's OD&D rules), while some are 'closed' (Athas), but even a 'closed' world is still connected (bits of Athas made it into Ravenloft, so it wasn't 'impenetrable').

Eberron was technically a 'closed' world/system, because its cosmology was completely different then the others linked together by the Great Wheel (even those that had no direct access to it, like Athas). However, in 5e its listed as one of the 'core worlds', right alongside Aebrynis (Birthright), which was another 'oddball'. Not sure what they did in that regard with EB and DS in 4e.

And then, of course, there is the triumverate - FR, GH, and DL. Thus, as of 5e, all of these worlds are considered part of the D&D multiverse canonically, and thus should be reachable from one-another, even if their crystal sphere is 'closed' (denied planer or Spelljamming access). I am sure Mystara had plenty of unofficial (Ed's Realms) connections to FR, but for a time TSR was trying to keep the fanbases separate (for OD&D and AD&D). They started moving The Known World into 2e, which was great, but they never blended the lore with the other settings, the way they did with most of them.

On another note - Blackmoor was in 3 official D&D settings; its own, plus GH and Mystara, and since GH is definitely connected to FR, thats just one more link, albeit tenuous.

EDIT: Geeze, I almost forgot the most obvious connection; halfings are called 'Hin' in both settings (mostly because we know Ed Greenwood did the halfings in both, but even without that meta-gaming knowledge, its still a canon factoid). Krynn's halflings are completely different, so on some levels, that would mean FR and KW (Known World/Mystara) are even more connected then FR and DL. We also got avariel and Areanea from that setting.




Don't forget that D&D Online connected Eberron and the realms. Also, on how EB's connections to the planes change..... I half wonder if that's not how ALL the crystal spheres work and people have simply ascribed other planar constructs to them based on how they view them at that time (great wheel, great tree, etc..)

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5240 Posts

Posted - 03 Dec 2014 :  13:32:21  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

Ysshara the Lorekeeper: http://blog.aulddragon.com/2014/12/ysshara-the-lorekeeper/

Like Mirklak, Ysshara received a brief mention in the Great Grey Land of Thar booklet of Elminster's Ecologies. With Mirklak and Vaprak, the three deities form a nice small pantheon for ogres, and I felt I needed to give considerable depth to her, so she didn't seem like just an ogre version of the orcish Luthic. Ysshara turned into what I think is a very interesting deity, with considerable potential to make ogres into a more well-rounded race in any AD&D campaign.

Jeff



By the way, I wanted to stress I like the noted link you gave for Ysshara and Cegilune. I like this because of some homebrew lore that I have for the rough area that Dazzlerdal and myself had created surrounding the Unapproachable East about a year or two back. It revolved around millennia ago there being a hag population in what eventually became Narathmault/Dun-Tharos when it was a subterranean city for hags named Bheuristahl. This hag population worked with the giants and bred with the ogres in the area, but the ogres would have had some reverence for Cegilune. My take on the spelljamming ogres were that they arrived and used their intelligence to organize terrestrial ogres.

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18675&whichpage=3

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13386 Posts

Posted - 03 Dec 2014 :  13:58:16  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Don't forget that D&D Online connected Eberron and the realms. Also, on how EB's connections to the planes change..... I half wonder if that's not how ALL the crystal spheres work and people have simply ascribed other planar constructs to them based on how they view them at that time (great wheel, great tree, etc..)
I've had notions along these same lines, back when there used to be 'deep' discussions on the WotC boards.

I look at the Great Wheel cosmology as the Over-cosmology, literally. If we go back to the theory that all the (main) planes are 'infinite', then one could surmise that there would be an infinite amount of regions within them - one for each setting/world/sphere. I liken this to a large city or town, with smaller 'neighborhoods' where people share similar customs. Each setting is linked to a different part of a plane, thus, the planes themselves are like 'poor reflections' of the Prime Material, but each flavored by its own essence.

This works particularly well with the elemental planes that they keep changing on us; if we imagine that the Maelstrom is the natural state for the Inner Planes, and within it are an near-infinite number of 'elemental nodes' (some as big as worlds) floating within it, then we can see how its not really the planes that have changed, merely 'mortal perception' of therm. If I were to travel from earth to the 'plane of fire' (and used protection ), I could spend my whole life wandering around thinking it was infinite, when rally, I'd just be on a world-sized blob of elemental fire floating in an elemental soup. So the idea of me walking from Earth to Greyhawk to The Realms is theoretically possible, but ridiculous in execution. that would be like them building a road between here and Mars, and me thinking I could just walk there.

So mortals wind-up with two wrongful conclusions - that the elemental planes are separate (when only regions of them are), and that some worlds have their own versions of them (like Eberron). What Eberron probably really has is 'closed' elemental spheres. If we take my musings of how the planes interact (which 5e seems to also embrace now), the Eberron 'elemental planes' (worlds) are really just 'domains' (demi-planes) controlled by a 'spheric guardian' (domain lord). Every plane and demi-plane has them (or nearly every... one can further muse on what guardian-less planes would be like). Thus, like a normal 'closed sphere', one can not enter or exit the demi-plane without some major mojo (an artifact, conjunction, or deity). So Eberron's people would not realize there was more 'outside' of Kythri - their own, personal 'Maelstrom' bubble - and a travelers from elsewhere would get to the barrier separating it, not be able to get through, and wander in another direction (if one had the means to actually travel that far, in that direction, and actual find such a thing within the infinite elemental chaos.. it would have to be pure, dumb luck).

So, yeah; just my 'neighborhoods' theory in retrospect, which can be applied to any of the planes (it works well with the Feywild too - I imagine a 'sea of dreams' wherein floats islands that mirror each worlds geography). The 'material' that separates each neighborhood would depend on the plane, of course.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Dec 2014 13:59:35
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13386 Posts

Posted - 03 Dec 2014 :  14:21:27  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The same would go for the Outer Planes as well. People following the Olympic Pantheon would wind-up in Olympus, whereas elves would wind-up in Arvandor. A layer might amount to a 'municipality', with neighborhoods (Godly Domains) within it. Since worshipers go to the afterlife they expect to go, and can only 'leave' with permission by the ruling domain lord(s), most petitioners (and visitors) would have little or no knowledge of what lie beyond their 'neighborhood' (domain).

Gray Richardson and I had a theory that the phlogiston (space in Spelljammer) was really just the Ethereal plane. When you leave a world by magical means, you automatically enter it (unlike when you leave it by technological/natural means, when you simply enter 'normal space'). The space within a crystal sphere - Wildspace - is the border ethereal, which is why you can see 'see' and interact with the worlds (prime material). When on a world (within its gravity-well), you see the ethereal just as its described - it only changes to these other states (Wildspace, Phlogiston) when outside a world. This actually explains much of the planer interaction, as well how we can have both traditional 'outer space' (in some early D&D products) and also all the spelljammer silliness (sorry... my opinions are showing ).

So you can have the U.S.S Enterprise in the Sol System... and you can also have a space-galleon from Space: 1889 within the same universe. They could pass each other, and never see each other, because one is traveling through normal, (near) empty space, whilst the other is traveling through 'magical' (ethereal) space. Of course, it more likely that they are simply in different dimensions (Quantum universe) as well (but not necessarily - both are possible simultaneously, except worlds that embrace magic and tech are fairly rare - they would have 'Steampunk Physics').

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Dec 2014 14:21:58
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
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Posted - 03 Dec 2014 :  23:31:56  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

By the way, I wanted to stress I like the noted link you gave for Ysshara and Cegilune. I like this because of some homebrew lore that I have for the rough area that Dazzlerdal and myself had created surrounding the Unapproachable East about a year or two back. It revolved around millennia ago there being a hag population in what eventually became Narathmault/Dun-Tharos when it was a subterranean city for hags named Bheuristahl. This hag population worked with the giants and bred with the ogres in the area, but the ogres would have had some reverence for Cegilune. My take on the spelljamming ogres were that they arrived and used their intelligence to organize terrestrial ogres.

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18675&whichpage=3



Thanks! It seemed important to do so, since hags are essentially what are called ogresses in much mythology and folklore (at least, when translated into English). I try to slip in any of these connections where ever I can, sometimes as easter eggs; for example, I set up Ysshara as the prototype of the Japanese Onibaba, without explicitly saying so.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
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Posted - 04 Dec 2014 :  01:54:26  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Gray Richardson and I had a theory that the phlogiston (space in Spelljammer) was really just the Ethereal plane. When you leave a world by magical means, you automatically enter it (unlike when you leave it by technological/natural means, when you simply enter 'normal space'). The space within a crystal sphere - Wildspace - is the border ethereal, which is why you can see 'see' and interact with the worlds (prime material). When on a world (within its gravity-well), you see the ethereal just as its described - it only changes to these other states (Wildspace, Phlogiston) when outside a world. This actually explains much of the planer interaction, as well how we can have both traditional 'outer space' (in some early D&D products) and also all the spelljammer silliness (sorry... my opinions are showing ).


That requires ignoring the existing canon on what Spelljammer has to say about Wildspace and the Phlogiston, especially as the Phlogiston is completely cut off from the planes: inner, outer, transitive, demi, you name it. The phlogiston is more like the raw material of creation in a completely unordered state; the swirls and eddies in the gases occasionally come together to randomly form a crystal sphere. Creator gods can also do so, but they have to get out into the Flow in the first place, which is no easy feat for a deity. As you might expect, I'm a fan of Spelljammer, "silliness" and all. :)

Being the second edition player I am, I see the planar layout from 2e as the "correct" one, and any other layout is simply a misunderstanding by the backwards Primes. :)

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5240 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2014 :  12:19:19  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Gray Richardson and I had a theory that the phlogiston (space in Spelljammer) was really just the Ethereal plane. When you leave a world by magical means, you automatically enter it (unlike when you leave it by technological/natural means, when you simply enter 'normal space'). The space within a crystal sphere - Wildspace - is the border ethereal, which is why you can see 'see' and interact with the worlds (prime material). When on a world (within its gravity-well), you see the ethereal just as its described - it only changes to these other states (Wildspace, Phlogiston) when outside a world. This actually explains much of the planer interaction, as well how we can have both traditional 'outer space' (in some early D&D products) and also all the spelljammer silliness (sorry... my opinions are showing ).


That requires ignoring the existing canon on what Spelljammer has to say about Wildspace and the Phlogiston, especially as the Phlogiston is completely cut off from the planes: inner, outer, transitive, demi, you name it. The phlogiston is more like the raw material of creation in a completely unordered state; the swirls and eddies in the gases occasionally come together to randomly form a crystal sphere. Creator gods can also do so, but they have to get out into the Flow in the first place, which is no easy feat for a deity. As you might expect, I'm a fan of Spelljammer, "silliness" and all. :)

Being the second edition player I am, I see the planar layout from 2e as the "correct" one, and any other layout is simply a misunderstanding by the backwards Primes. :)

Jeff



Yeah, I'd prefer separating the phlogiston from anything else as well. I similarly like the ideas put forth about their being a plane of time that's unlike the outer and inner planes as well. I see these as all different "frequencies" that interact with each other.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13386 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2014 :  19:01:41  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To each their own - I chalk all of these edition-discrepancies up to 'mortal misunderstanding' of how it all really works.

I have no problem with magic working, or of mythical creatures existing. In an infinite universe, all that is possible (magic simply becomes some sort of 'super science' beyond our current comprehension).

What I do have problems with is Spalljamming, because we know it isn't possible. We've had 'real' spacecraft in D&D since the beginning (Expedition to the Barrier Peaks). We don't know how magic works, but we do know how 'outer space' works. Spalljamming isn't 'fantasy', its lunacy. By saying a non-technological or non-natural object exiting the atmosphere enters another plane (or rather, a border-plane, at first), we can then merge the absurd with the real, otherwise it just falls apart. Wildspace cannot be intrastellar space, nor can the Phlogiston be interstellar space (notice the spelling) - we already have RW definitions and physics for those. We know that the international space station does not automatically have its own gravity plane and air bubble.

And that is why the original 2e definitions of what those are in SJ must be wrong. You CANNOT redefine a known scientific phenomena. You can add to it, embellish it, or do just about whatever you want to it, but you cannot disregard it. If you say that Spelljamming was taking place 'just outside normal space' (ethereal, border ethereal) then I can buy that. If you say it takes the place of it, I have no time for such rubbish. If you think Spelljamming works, then you must be one of those people who believe we've never really landed on the moon, because you can't have both.


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Dec 2014 19:03:32
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 04 Dec 2014 :  20:48:08  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have no problem with the way space travel works in Spelljammer.*

For one thing, I don't believe we know the origin of the ship in Expedition to the Barrier Peaks. It could have come from the far future of Oerth; it could have somehow dropped into Greyspace from a different universe entirely. There is an astronomical feature in Greyspace that the ship could have traveled thru to get there, from anywhere else or from another time entirely.

And it's not entirely without precedent for something from a non-D&D universe to appear in the D&D multiverse. In Spelljammer canon, we have Ed's own article detailing Refuge and Below; anything up to and including modern army soldiers and cartoon characters can be encountered on Below.

Plus, there is a Nehwon ghoul in the Realms.

We also know that the Realms has connections to Earth. Yet we have -- in canon, in multiple sources -- blurbs saying that the physics of the Realms are not the same as the physics of the real world. Electronics are specifically sited -- they don't work in the Realms.

So if we accept as canon that some examples of real world physics do not apply to the Realms, why can we not accept that for space travel?

Even without that, how can we accept humanoids more than 20 feet tall, giant flying reptiles with flaming breath, or gods that can literally change aspects of reality on a whim, but not accept space travel happening in a different manner?

*Note: I do have an issue with the way spelljamming helms operate, but I've come up with what I feel is a more elegant way to explain that.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 04 Dec 2014 20:54:13
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4769 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2014 :  23:18:52  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yep, I'm of the view that RW physics and "rules" only apply where it's specifically stated that they do or it is a "given" (i.e. gravity). I too have no problem with the 'physics' of Spelljammer and certainly don't think that there is any imperative to apply RW physics to the concept. If we can accept that a human can conjure up fire by mumbling some nonsensical words while rolling a ball of bat pooh and sulphur between his fingers, why can't we accept a vessel in the phologiston having its own gravity plane and air bubble? I actually like the way that stuff works in Spelljammer.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
209 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2014 :  11:37:24  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Yep, I'm of the view that RW physics and "rules" only apply where it's specifically stated that they do or it is a "given" (i.e. gravity). I too have no problem with the 'physics' of Spelljammer and certainly don't think that there is any imperative to apply RW physics to the concept. If we can accept that a human can conjure up fire by mumbling some nonsensical words while rolling a ball of bat pooh and sulphur between his fingers, why can't we accept a vessel in the phologiston having its own gravity plane and air bubble? I actually like the way that stuff works in Spelljammer.

-- George Krashos



That's pretty much my opinion on the matter. I don't see D&D magic as any more plausible that Spelljammer physics. I actually don't think I'd like it if it were more realistic; a regular scifi game would do it "better" to an extent. Instead, you get things that would break suspension of disbelief in most scifi games, such as worlds on the backs of turtles, crescent worlds, asteroid cities, and enormous stellar trees. I love the craziness in Spelljammer. :D

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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