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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

382 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2015 :  12:37:38  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maybe take a page out of Jim Butcher's handling of the Summer Queen and the Queen of Air and Darkness?

Anyway, I'm eagerly awaiting Mellifleur, Kanchelsis and Falazure.
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
496 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2015 :  13:14:45  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Again, there some clues in Monster Mythology, that Queen of Air and Darkness and Cegilune, are one and the same, both being Titania's dark twin. Yet only Queen of Air and Darkness is mentioned as Titania's sister, in all other sources, aside from the section about Cegilune.
If Carl Sarget indeed meant for Cegilune and Queen of Air and Darkness to be one andthe same, I really start believe he took inspiration from
Cailleach, who has two forms - a maiden(Queen of Air and Darkness?) and a old Hag(Cegilune?). Cegilune, Queen of Air and Darkness, and Cailleach, are all called dark sisters, to Faerie Queens/Goddess conneted to Summer(Brigid/Aine/Titania). All those similaries, make doubt they were accidental. You mst admit those similarities are at least odd. Also, Carl Sarget seems to also have given Oberon traits his Shakespearean counterpart lacks, like his connection to hunt and beasts, yet his mythological folkloric counterpart Oberon/Gwyn ap Nudd had, so I think also took inspiration from folkore when writting his book.


Also about Auril, if don't want to have the same as The Queen of Air and Darkness, you can have her as another member of the Unseelie court, who took her Queens title, to seem more powerfull. She's even called "Aurilandür the Frost Sprite Queen", so mybe she was just the Faerie noble in charge of Frost Sprites? What is interesting, Rellavar Danuvien, a Fey and Elven power, calls himself the "Frost Sprite King", but him taking this title, was commented as "grandiose and meaningless". He also deals with both the Seelie and Unseelie court regulary. Maybe he's Auril's ex-consort, who after her migrating to the Unseelie court, lost his power over Frost Sprites, and that's maybe why his title is meaningless.

Edited by - Baltas on 27 Feb 2015 13:16:43
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5027 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2015 :  13:27:20  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Well, I did say you might have a diffrent opinion, and with Cailleach, it was more me giving some trivia.

Also, dunno, but as I wrote the Queen of Air and Darkness, is not Carl Sargent, or Poul Anderson creation, but a much earlier being from the folklore of U.K. and Ireland. Her being the leader of the Unseelie Court, is also from what I know something older than the creation and publishing of Monster Mythology.

[EDIT]




To be clear, I don't want to change your opinion about Auril and Queen of Air and Darkness, I just want to point out, that the 4e fusions, this one works the best, seeing how Queen of Air and Darkness was connected to cold and winter in folklore, they lived on the same plane actualy, Auril had a mysterious backstory, where she was mentioned as something much greater in the past. Also Auril also lived in Arborea/Arvandor, and was exiled from there, as shown in the Evermeet book. There was even some speculation that Auril may be a fey deity, before 4th edition came out. And as opposed to all those fusions, they put some work in it, writing a whole article that connected the lore of Auril and Queen of Air and Darkness, in Dragon #367 "Realmslore: Hall of the Frostmaiden" article, and expanding on it also in a few other sources. There, Brian R. James actualy references Cailleach, with the bheur hags serving under Auril. Cailleach Bheur, is one of the Gaelic winter goddess' names.

As I said above, I don't mean to change your opinion AuldDragon, just wanted to say that out of all those fusions(Selune/Sehanine, Akadi/Aerdie Fenya, Gruumsh/Talos, Chauntea/Yondalla), this one actualy worked to me, and other people. I was more curious if you would count it or not, later just pointing out the observations I made above.

[EDIT2]

This also leaves the question of Cegilune, who's also called Titania's dark twin...This makes me wonder if Cegilune and the Queen of Air and Darkness, aren't maybe two faces of the same being.
Cailleach is also presented oftenly as a Hag, and as I mentioned, Cailleach may be the source of the Queen of Air and Darkness.

Or maybe Titania was also infected by Tharizdun's dark gem, but separated/cut the corrupted part of herself. From the corrupted part, would be Cegilune born. This would also explain why when one dies, the other would also, as both Titania, and Cegilune, would be still two halves of the same being, if separated.

[EDIT3]
Another interesting fact about Cailleach, is that she could switch between her two forms, a whithered horryfying hag, and a beautiful maiden. Maybe this the case with Cegilune and Queen of Air and Darkness?
More about the connection between Cailleach and Queen of Air and Darkness, can be read in the article Queen Of Air And Darkness by Mara Freeman, aviable free on the net(http://www.druidry.org/library/gods-goddesses/queen-air-and-darkness)(althought the article itself was originaly written in 1991), and a bit about it in Of Sex and Faerie: Further essays on Genre Fiction.





IF... and I say this as only IF.... Titania and Cegilune were split from the Queen of the Seelie Court ... could it be that somehow Leira and Auril were portions of the same fey divinity that ruled the Unseelie Court? Leira does seem to possess the other aspects of the Queen of Air and Darkness that you state were missing. It would be a different kind of split (its not separating into good/evil), but it could make for a good story.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
496 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2015 :  13:44:19  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

IF... and I say this as only IF.... Titania and Cegilune were split from the Queen of the Seelie Court ... could it be that somehow Leira and Auril were portions of the same fey divinity that ruled the Unseelie Court? Leira does seem to possess the other aspects of the Queen of Air and Darkness that you state were missing. It would be a different kind of split (its not separating into good/evil), but it could make for a good story.



Fascinating theory, especialy that it seems that Leira returned. Or rather, it seems she just stopped hidding behind the illusion of her death, like she was persumed for years.

And if Leira was split from Auril, maybe it was because of Talos. When Talos, wanted to siphon power from the Queen of Air and Darkness, it caused a strange chain reaction, that caused Queen of Air and Darkness, to produce Leira out of herself.

[EDIT]

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Maybe take a page out of Jim Butcher's handling of the Summer Queen and the Queen of Air and Darkness?

Anyway, I'm eagerly awaiting Mellifleur, Kanchelsis and Falazure.



Great idea!

Edited by - Baltas on 27 Feb 2015 14:11:44
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5027 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2015 :  00:55:58  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

IF... and I say this as only IF.... Titania and Cegilune were split from the Queen of the Seelie Court ... could it be that somehow Leira and Auril were portions of the same fey divinity that ruled the Unseelie Court? Leira does seem to possess the other aspects of the Queen of Air and Darkness that you state were missing. It would be a different kind of split (its not separating into good/evil), but it could make for a good story.



Fascinating theory, especialy that it seems that Leira returned. Or rather, it seems she just stopped hidding behind the illusion of her death, like she was persumed for years.

And if Leira was split from Auril, maybe it was because of Talos. When Talos, wanted to siphon power from the Queen of Air and Darkness, it caused a strange chain reaction, that caused Queen of Air and Darkness, to produce Leira out of herself.

[EDIT]

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Maybe take a page out of Jim Butcher's handling of the Summer Queen and the Queen of Air and Darkness?

Anyway, I'm eagerly awaiting Mellifleur, Kanchelsis and Falazure.



Great idea!



That reminds me, what issue of dragon was it that details the events of the stormstar requiem and its involvement with Auril. I thought it was the Halls of the Frostmaiden article in dragon 367, but that has very little info. Kind of wondering, IF the idea of Auril and Leira...... hmmmm ..... Lirua......sorry, sidetracked.... were related.... might Leira be the black diamond? Or what exactly was the "stormstar"... i.e. was it the black diamond? Because I know that the stormstar is an alias of Talos.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
189 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2015 :  07:31:16  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Maybe take a page out of Jim Butcher's handling of the Summer Queen and the Queen of Air and Darkness?


When it comes to other works of modern fantasy fiction, I'd rather do something different if I'm not drawing directly from actual folklore/mythology. I think the Queen of Air and Darkness as described in Monster Mythology is pretty unique, and I want to keep her that way.

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Again, there some clues in Monster Mythology, that Queen of Air and Darkness and Cegilune, are one and the same, both being Titania's dark twin. Yet only Queen of Air and Darkness is mentioned as Titania's sister, in all other sources, aside from the section about Cegilune.
If Carl Sarget indeed meant for Cegilune and Queen of Air and Darkness to be one andthe same


Those aren't clues to anything of the sort. It's pretty clear that Cegilune and the Queen of Air and Darkness were intended by Carl Sargent to be two separate individuals in the way he discussed the mythical connection between Cegilune and Titania while pointing out that Titania already has a sister; the indication is clear that the Queen is factually Titania's sister, whereas Cegilune seems to have a connection to the faerie queen, and some think that connection is sisterhood. However, the relation between Titania and Cegilune, unlike the one between Titania and the Queen of Air and Darkness, is specifically left ephemeral. It's supposed to be a mystery, albeit one that DMs can embellish for their own campaigns.

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Also about Auril, if don't want to have the same as The Queen of Air and Darkness, you can have her as another member of the Unseelie court, who took her Queens title, to seem more powerfull. She's even called "Aurilandür the Frost Sprite Queen", so mybe she was just the Faerie noble in charge of Frost Sprites? What is interesting, Rellavar Danuvien, a Fey and Elven power, calls himself the "Frost Sprite King", but him taking this title, was commented as "grandiose and meaningless". He also deals with both the Seelie and Unseelie court regulary. Maybe he's Auril's ex-consort, who after her migrating to the Unseelie court, lost his power over Frost Sprites, and that's maybe why his title is meaningless.



According to Dragon #236, Rellavar doesn't just call himself the Frost Sprite King; he has frost sprites as one of his portfolios. His alignment of Neutral Good matches that of the frost sprites as well, so it seems to me that if anyone is claiming a title without providence it is Auril. For the record, I'm not aware of this other title or alias; Faiths & Avatars makes no reference to it.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
496 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2015 :  10:25:15  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

According to Dragon #236, Rellavar doesn't just call himself the Frost Sprite King; he has frost sprites as one of his portfolios. His alignment of Neutral Good matches that of the frost sprites as well, so it seems to me that if anyone is claiming a title without providence it is Auril. For the record, I'm not aware of this other title or alias; Faiths & Avatars makes no reference to it.

Jeff



Hmm, okay, so Rellavar still has power over frost sprites. But the title of "The Frost Sprite King" was stilll commented in his article as being gradiose and meaningless for some reason. So maybe he was the king, while he was married to Auril, and lost technicaly the rights to the title after they separated, seing how Fey in d&d seem matriarchal? On the other hand, what do you think of my idea of including Auril as another Unseelie/dark fey deity?

Edited by - Baltas on 28 Feb 2015 11:52:16
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
189 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2015 :  11:54:08  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Hmm, okay, so maybe Rellavar still has power over frost sprites. But the title of "The Frost Sprite King" was stilllcommented in his article as being gradiose and meaningless. So maybe he was the king, while he was married to Auril, and lost the title after they separated, seing how Fey in d&d seem matriarchal? On the other hand, what do you think of my idea of including Auril as another Unseelie/dark fey deity?



I don't see any mention of it being a meaningless title in Dragon #236. With respect to Auril, I don't see her as related to the sylvan powers at all. She has always struck me as an entirely human deity, spawned from one of the many sources that spawn human deities, and not spawned from a non-human source.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
496 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2015 :  12:38:47  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

I don't see any mention of it being a meaningless title in Dragon #236. With respect to Auril, I don't see her as related to the sylvan powers at all. She has always struck me as an entirely human deity, spawned from one of the many sources that spawn human deities, and not spawned from a non-human source.

Jeff



Hmm, indeed I must have confused some stuff, as there is no information about it in Dragon #236. Now when searched for it, I only found it on a few (non-canon) internet articles about him. Maybe that's from were I got from in the first place?

The well known Auril aspect, was mentioned in 4E materials, as Aurilandür's guise/aspect she shows to humans, and noy-fey and non-elven worshippers in general. And the Unseelie court is horribly underdeveloped, with only one member, so an extra member would be nice. And you did take even smaller material, and developed them, like with Ysshara, and Refnara, or even invent new, if sensefull connections, like with the Annam/Ymir connection, so I don't see making Aurilandür another member of the Unseelie court, would be very heretical, especialy that it was mentioned in the Evermeet book, that Auril was exiled from Arborea to Pandemonium. As I proposed, it is possibe Auril on Toril took the "Queen of Air and Darkness" title from her superior, to seem more intimidating. Of course, if you don't like it so much, then I let it go.

[EDIT]
Also
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

Those aren't clues to anything of the sort. It's pretty clear that Cegilune and the Queen of Air and Darkness were intended by Carl Sargent to be two separate individuals in the way he discussed the mythical connection between Cegilune and Titania while pointing out that Titania already has a sister; the indication is clear that the Queen is factually Titania's sister, whereas Cegilune seems to have a connection to the faerie queen, and some think that connection is sisterhood. However, the relation between Titania and Cegilune, unlike the one between Titania and the Queen of Air and Darkness, is specifically left ephemeral. It's supposed to be a mystery, albeit one that DMs can embellish for their own campaigns.





I'm not really sure about it. The Monster Mytholgy book itself notes how odd it is that Cegilune is called Titania's dark sister, while this obviously usualy describes The Queen of Air and Darkness.
The only reall way to know, would be to contact Carl Sargent. Although I don't know how.
Sean K. Reynolds, a fellow author, wrote that Carl is in bad state of health after a car accident, that left him unable to work, so this may make contact even harder. Not to mention, it could be inappropriate to contact him, just to ask such a trivial question. I hope he got, or gets better.

Edited by - Baltas on 28 Feb 2015 13:41:04
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
496 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2015 :  14:30:36  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

That reminds me, what issue of dragon was it that details the events of the stormstar requiem and its involvement with Auril. I thought it was the Halls of the Frostmaiden article in dragon 367, but that has very little info. Kind of wondering, IF the idea of Auril and Leira...... hmmmm ..... Lirua......sorry, sidetracked.... were related.... might Leira be the black diamond? Or what exactly was the "stormstar"... i.e. was it the black diamond? Because I know that the stormstar is an alias of Talos.



I think that Leira would faster be the remains of Auril's/Queen's of Air and Darkness original personality, that she hid deep inside of herself from the black gems corruption, and even herself. This is why this fragment, that would become Leira, got the portfolio of deception and illusion.
Stormstar, might be a shard of the Black Gem, that Talos got, and used to force his authority over Auril. Like when Megatron, used the half of Rampage's spark, to have power over him, in Beast Wars, or like when Cutler Beckett controlled Davy Jones, by having his heart, in Pirates of the Caribbean.

What is interesting, Auril's symbol, seems like a snowflake, in front of a black rhombus/diamond. Maybe it's a snowflake in front of Tharizdun's black gem?

[EDIT]

Maybe during the Stormstar Requiem, when Talos and Gruumsh battled, Gruumsh shattered the Stormstar(shard of the Black Gem), which gave Auril freedom to attack Talos. Then Auril and Talos, who were once alies as the members of the Anti-Seldarine, proceded to together slaughter and tear apart Talos, and share his portfolios. Of course, it seems that now the Storm Lord returned from his death, after the Sundering.

[EDIT2]

Also, I'm curious what your take will be at Sseth and Merrshaulk. It was allways felt it's a bit unclear what's the exact relationship of Sseth and Merrshaulk is. Is Sseth just an alias? Is he an aspect? Is he maybe an aspect of The Serpent Lord, diffrent deity or ascended mortal(Yuan-Ti? Sarrukh?), who absorbed Merrshaulk, like the rest of the reptilian gods he subsumed/absorbed? Sseth's avatar/manifestion, does look diffrent from Merrshaulk's. Although that may just be the result of Sseth/Merrshaulk absorbing many diffrent deties.

Edited by - Baltas on 28 Feb 2015 15:48:14
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AuldDragon
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USA
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Posted - 28 Feb 2015 :  22:04:46  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

And the Unseelie court is horribly underdeveloped, with only one member, so an extra member would be nice. And you did take even smaller material, and developed them, like with Ysshara, and Refnara, or even invent new, if sensefull connections, like with the Annam/Ymir connection


Right, but I've only merged deities who effectively had no information (Memnor and Vilya) or who weren't likely to have an actual deity entry, as in the case of Ymir, since he is dead. None of the entities I merged have been well-detailed deities.

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

I'm not really sure about it. The Monster Mytholgy book itself notes how odd it is that Cegilune is called Titania's dark sister, while this obviously usualy describes The Queen of Air and Darkness.


"She is believed to be related to the sylvan deities, allegedly a dark sister to Titania"

"This relation cannot be the whole truth, because of Titania's known dark sister the Queen of Air and Darkness, but there is definitely some relation between the dark hag and the fair Faerie Queen"

It cannot be overemphasized that the nature of their relationship is just a rumor. One of those rumors is that they are sisters. The second quote indicated that that is unlikely, because Titania is *known* to have a sister in the Queen of Air and Darkness. Of course, no where does it say that Titania doesn't have *two* sisters.

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

What is interesting, Auril's symbol, seems like a snowflake, in front of a black rhombus/diamond. Maybe it's a snowflake in front of Tharizdun's black gem?


The snowflake is on a grey lozenge, which is a heraldic symbol. The Black Diamond of the Queen of Air and Darkness has 10 facets, meaning it is probably a table cut, and that would be her symbol.

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Also, I'm curious what your take will be at Sseth and Merrshaulk. It was allways felt it's a bit unclear what's the exact relationship of Sseth and Merrshaulk is. Is Sseth just an alias? Is he an aspect? Is he maybe an aspect of The Serpent Lord, diffrent deity or ascended mortal(Yuan-Ti? Sarrukh?), who absorbed Merrshaulk, like the rest of the reptilian gods he subsumed/absorbed? Sseth's avatar/manifestion, does look diffrent from Merrshaulk's. Although that may just be the result of Sseth/Merrshaulk absorbing many diffrent deties.


Merrshaulk is not worshiped in the Realms; Sseth responds to prayers to him, as is the case for Ghaunadaur and Juiblex and the Elder Elemental God, and Velsharoon and Melifleur. Beyond that, I don't know what I'll do.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
496 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2015 :  22:37:02  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

Right, but I've only merged deities who effectively had no information (Memnor and Vilya) or who weren't likely to have an actual deity entry, as in the case of Ymir, since he is dead. None of the entities I merged have been well-detailed deities.




Well, I've meant that you could have Aurilandür, as the Frost Sprite queen, a deity whose a member of the Unseelie court, not merge Auril with another deity. And it's not uncomon than non-human deities, enter human pantheons. Tiamat is an example, Shiallia is another. Curiously, Jergal may have been a Spellweaver deity originaly.
http://paizo.com/dungeonissues/130/DA130_Supplement_H.pdf

And there is quite good lore to use, about Auril as a deity connected fey, and related creatures like hags, connected to cold.
http://www.wizards.com/files/367_Realmslore.pdf

quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

It cannot be overemphasized that the nature of their relationship is just a rumor. One of those rumors is that they are sisters. The second quote indicated that that is unlikely, because Titania is *known* to have a sister in the Queen of Air and Darkness. Of course, no where does it say that Titania doesn't have *two* sisters.




Well, what I meant, is that them being one of the same, is one of the few logical explanations. And I think Carl Sargent might have meant it, at least as one of the possible explanations, as he's from Wales, and it's quite possibly he read himself works that connected The Queen of Air and Darkness and Cailleach, like the Dictionary of Faeries, or Queen of Air and Darkness article, which were written by British people, and most famous there.
Of course I mean it as just a possibility, just one that shouldn't hastily ruled out, I think.

quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

The snowflake is on a grey lozenge, which is a heraldic symbol. The Black Diamond of the Queen of Air and Darkness has 10 facets, meaning it is probably a table cut, and that would be her symbol.




Well, that's from my and sleyvas' conversation, that includes highly hypotetical stuff, and includes the idea that Auril and The Queen of Air and Darkness are one and the same, something you obviously don't agree with. Maybe I should make a separate thread for it, or something, to avoid further confusion?

quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
Merrshaulk is not worshiped in the Realms; Sseth responds to prayers to him, as is the case for Ghaunadaur and Juiblex and the Elder Elemental God, and Velsharoon and Melifleur. Beyond that, I don't know what I'll do.



So this means you count Merrshaulk and Sseth as separate?
What is interesting Merrshaulk had aparently a presence on Toril, as he's noted to have slain Jazirian on Toril.

Also, about serpentine deities, the Mahasarpa setting
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Mahasarpa.pdf

It has a Naga goddess known as Nagini, who I think could very be an aspect, or alias of Shekinester.

Edited by - Baltas on 28 Feb 2015 22:39:56
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AuldDragon
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Posted - 02 Mar 2015 :  07:05:12  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Well, what I meant, is that them being one of the same, is one of the few logical explanations. And I think Carl Sargent might have meant it, at least as one of the possible explanations, as he's from Wales, and it's quite possibly he read himself works that connected The Queen of Air and Darkness and Cailleach, like the Dictionary of Faeries, or Queen of Air and Darkness article, which were written by British people, and most famous there.
Of course I mean it as just a possibility, just one that shouldn't hastily ruled out, I think.


I don't think I'm hastily ruling it out. I do think the evidence is clear that Carl Sargent himself intended every deity in the book to be a separate entity. No deity in the book is described as being the same as another, nor are any directly hinted at as being the same ("some people say these two are one and the same" sort of thing). Merging deities wasn't really a thing at that time, and the appendix in the back only talks about local campaign setting deities as possible aspects of the deities presented in the book, not deities in the book being aspects of other deities in the book.

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
Merrshaulk is not worshiped in the Realms; Sseth responds to prayers to him, as is the case for Ghaunadaur and Juiblex and the Elder Elemental God, and Velsharoon and Melifleur. Beyond that, I don't know what I'll do.


So this means you count Merrshaulk and Sseth as separate?
What is interesting Merrshaulk had aparently a presence on Toril, as he's noted to have slain Jazirian on Toril.


The death of Jazirian is an example of the intentional shrinking of the deity list; I'm sure you can guess what my opinion on that is.

I will leave the specific nature of Merrshaulk and Sseth mysterious; as I see it they are either separate, or Sseth merged with Merrshaulk upon his apotheosis and Merrshaulk just uses Sseth as his aspect in the Forgotten Realms. Which is the truth is immaterial.

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Also, about serpentine deities, the Mahasarpa setting
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Mahasarpa.pdf

It has a Naga goddess known as Nagini, who I think could very be an aspect, or alias of Shekinester.


Sure, I guess. I don't know anything about Rokugan, so I won't be incorporating it.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
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Posted - 02 Mar 2015 :  08:32:20  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

I don't think I'm hastily ruling it out. I do think the evidence is clear that Carl Sargent himself intended every deity in the book to be a separate entity. No deity in the book is described as being the same as another, nor are any directly hinted at as being the same ("some people say these two are one and the same" sort of thing). Merging deities wasn't really a thing at that time, and the appendix in the back only talks about local campaign setting deities as possible aspects of the deities presented in the book, not deities in the book being aspects of other deities in the book.




Dunno, I think it's really more a one interpretation, vs another situation. After all, neither of us is Carl Sargent, or were in his head

But again, this may be very a very Your Mileage may Vary topic.

And maybe we better stop discussing Cegilune and Queen of Air and Darkness, as we're both adamant about our opinions, and are moving nowere...

quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

Sure, I guess. I don't know anything about Rokugan, so I won't be incorporating it.

Jeff



Actualy, Mahasarpa isn't part of Rokugan/Legend of the Five Rings.
It was created to show how to create a custom Oriental Adventures setting.
It was even suggested to adapt Mahasarpa for the Utter East region, by the developers. And all about Mahasarpa is free, and contained in the pdf I linked to in the previous post.

[EDIT]

Also, will you maybe include Sarula Iliene, and Rellavar Danuvien in the Seelie Court?

[EDIT2]

The 4e, especialy the Manual of Planes, has quite a interesting bit of Archfey, especialy the Court of the Stars and various sub courts,like the Summer Court, Wild Court, and Winter Court, and others, with the Summer Cort being the closest to the Seelie Court and the Winter Courts(along with the Feydark inhabitants) being the closest to the Unseelie Court(Although the Manual of Planes said Seelie and Unseelie are terms used and invented by mortals, and it's more complex in reality). In there, Queen Tiandra the Summer Queen, is pretty much Titania and Lord Oran, the Green Lord is Oberon.

And what is interesting, this actualy isn't the first time Oberon and Titania have diffrent versions. The Faerie Queen was named Rhiannon in Dragon #155, Dragon #263 and Fey Feature also presented sligthly diffrent versions of Titania and Oberon, with Titania being Lawfull, not Chaotic/Neutral Good(outright stated as Lawfull Neutral in Dragon, implied as Lawfull Good or Neutral in Fey Feature). Birthright and Mystara also had their own versions of Titania(and also Oberon in Mystara).

Although you don't seem to like 4e material, disinterested it, or at least think of it as a separate canon from canon up to until 3.5 E.

[EDIT3]

Also, I like your take at Merrshaulk and Sseth. I think the ambiguousness is a good thing. The problem I ot with the canon presentation, is that it more seemed like the authors were unsure whatever they are separarte or not, and changed it depending on the book, rather than if they were delibatery ambigous.

Edited by - Baltas on 02 Mar 2015 14:19:43
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AuldDragon
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Posted - 03 Mar 2015 :  12:13:20  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Actualy, Mahasarpa isn't part of Rokugan/Legend of the Five Rings.
It was created to show how to create a custom Oriental Adventures setting.
It was even suggested to adapt Mahasarpa for the Utter East region, by the developers. And all about Mahasarpa is free, and contained in the pdf I linked to in the previous post.


Basically, it's a mini-setting with no concrete connections to other settings (suggestions of where it can be set notwithstanding), and as it's own mini-setting, I'd rather leave it to someone else to develop further. The Spelljammer fan in me would rather see it developed as its own Crystal Sphere. :)

That Serpent Queen appears to be a human deity, part of the (undetailed) pantheon of the setting, and not a non-human deity, so I would not make her an alias of Shekinester now that I've looked it over a bit more. Making namechecked deities aliases of a well-established deity should be based on more than just a title or portfolio. Ideally they should be worshiped by the same race or a similar race, and be clearly of similar alignment.

For example, an old Dungeon adventure with evil cloud giants mentioned a small shrine to their evil god Vilya. That's all it said. Since there is already a god of evil cloud giants (Memnor), it made sense to merge them, and it gave me a convenient way to handle his worship in mixed-giantish settings, such as Hartsvale.

On the other hand, Refnara matched neither of the previous Gnoll gods; since she had a snake aspect, I could have found a snake deity to merge her with, but creating a full deity allowed for more flavor to be added to gnoll society and history. Similarly, Grippli worship an unnamed deity which shares little in common with Ramenos, and thus should probably be a separate deity, and Kercpa (small squirrel-folk from a Dragon magazine and republish in one of the 2e Monstrous Compendium Annuals) worship an unnamed oak goddess, but their character is dissimilar to that of nymphs and dryads, so their goddess is probably not Verenestra in my view. Hopefully that gives you some idea of how I approach these things.

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Also, will you maybe include Sarula Iliene, and Rellavar Danuvien in the Seelie Court?


They definitely have a connection to the Seelie Court. I haven't decided the details yet.

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

And what is interesting, this actualy isn't the first time Oberon and Titania have diffrent versions. The Faerie Queen was named Rhiannon in Dragon #155, Dragon #263 and Fey Feature also presented sligthly diffrent versions of Titania and Oberon, with Titania being Lawfull, not Chaotic/Neutral Good(outright stated as Lawfull Neutral in Dragon, implied as Lawfull Good or Neutral in Fey Feature). Birthright and Mystara also had their own versions of Titania(and also Oberon in Mystara).


The article in Dragon #263 is specifically about the Shakespeare characters, not the D&D deities, and is just that author's interpretation; as such, it should be regarded as non-canonical in my opinion.

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Although you don't seem to like 4e material, disinterested it, or at least think of it as a separate canon from canon up to until 3.5 E.


Yes, I mentioned that at the beginning of the thread. This is a Second Edition project, and is working from a base of Second Edition canon. When there are deviations from that canon, I favor 2e; see my alignments for the Orcish gods for example.

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Also, I like your take at Merrshaulk and Sseth. I think the ambiguousness is a good thing. The problem I ot with the canon presentation, is that it more seemed like the authors were unsure whatever they are separarte or not, and changed it depending on the book, rather than if they were delibatery ambigous.



That's how I plan to treat such things. It preserves what's been written and what other people have done in their homebrew campaigns.

I think once the campaigns were no longer linked, the authors had no incentive/directive to preserve similar deities who may have been used in other settings or homebrews.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Baltas
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Posted - 03 Mar 2015 :  12:45:13  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon


That Serpent Queen appears to be a human deity, part of the (undetailed) pantheon of the setting, and not a non-human deity, so I would not make her an alias of Shekinester now that I've looked it over a bit more. Making namechecked deities aliases of a well-established deity should be based on more than just a title or portfolio. Ideally they should be worshiped by the same race or a similar race, and be clearly of similar alignment.




Actualy, Nagas appear to be the Serpent Queen's favored race/species and probably worshippers, and the form of Yuan-Ti, is viewed as a aberrant parody of the divine Naga form. So while actual nagas aren't really that much describbed in Mahasarpa, they are sacred to the Nagini cult. And non-human deities, taking on human worshippers, isn't unheard of.

quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

The article in Dragon #263 is specifically about the Shakespeare characters, not the D&D deities, and is just that author's interpretation; as such, it should be regarded as non-canonical in my opinion.





Yeah, but Fey Feature is meant as a part of d&d canon, it even mentions the Queen of Air and Darkness. The Seelie and Unseelie article http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20021213a
says basicaly that Seelie rulers are most usualy Lawful. And Rhiannon, I think, may be an Alias of Titania, when I think about it...

Edited by - Baltas on 03 Mar 2015 15:48:07
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AuldDragon
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Posted - 04 Mar 2015 :  00:23:00  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Actualy, Nagas appear to be the Serpent Queen's favored race/species and probably worshippers, and the form of Yuan-Ti, is viewed as a aberrant parody of the divine Naga form. So while actual nagas aren't really that much describbed in Mahasarpa, they are sacred to the Nagini cult. And non-human deities, taking on human worshippers, isn't unheard of.


That document you linked indicates humans have worshiped her for centuries, and she is the head of the pantheon. There's no indication of Nagas worshiping her, although she cursed some humans and turned them into yuan-ti. It's pretty clear her primary worshipers are humans (and after her curse, yuan-ti), and IMO that makes her a human deity, just as Bast is a human deity despite her affinity for cats.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Baltas
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Posted - 07 Mar 2015 :  22:24:05  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm, possibly, but it's hard to tell, as actual naga aren't mentioned to much in the short pdf containing the Mahasarpa campaign.

Also, how about including some stuff from the Fey Feature?
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/fey
As I posted before, they wrote some interesting stuff about Seelie and Unseelie courts.
http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/fey/20021213a

Seelie Fey, are a bit similar(in predisposition, I mean) to Gold and Grey Elves, which has some sense. I mean Grey Elves occasionaly had the Faerie Elf among them born.

Also, I know it's a bit out of your current project, but the Dark Hunters of the Queen of Air and Darkness,

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030315a

could be converted into nice ranger kit, of a character that worshipps the Queen of Air and Darkness. And seeing how they have arcane spells, yet have wisdom as the stat connected to them, I got an idea that maybe the Speciality Priests of the Queen of Air and Darkness, could have a number of arcane spells in in their priestly spell list.

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AuldDragon
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Posted - 08 Mar 2015 :  01:31:31  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Hmm, possibly, but it's hard to tell, as actual naga aren't mentioned to much in the short pdf containing the Mahasarpa campaign.


Right, but when there is a lack of information, certain assumptions can be made based on existing patterns; one of those being that unless it says otherwise, assume the deity is a god of the primary worshipers rather than an interloper. Interloping is comparatively rare. It's also a lot easier to work with a new god and bring them onto the cosmic scene than try to shoehorn things together.

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Also, how about including some stuff from the Fey Feature?
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/fey
As I posted before, they wrote some interesting stuff about Seelie and Unseelie courts.
http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/fey/20021213a

Seelie Fey, are a bit similar(in predisposition, I mean) to Gold and Grey Elves, which has some sense. I mean Grey Elves occasionaly had the Faerie Elf among them born.

Also, I know it's a bit out of your current project, but the Dark Hunters of the Queen of Air and Darkness,

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030315a

could be converted into nice ranger kit, of a character that worshipps the Queen of Air and Darkness. And seeing how they have arcane spells, yet have wisdom as the stat connected to them, I got an idea that maybe the Speciality Priests of the Queen of Air and Darkness, could have a number of arcane spells in in their priestly spell list.


I'll definitely read over and evaluate those articles when I get to the sylvan deities; that's quite a ways off, however. I can safely say the Queen of Air and Darkness won't have rangers amongst her followers, though, as I hold to 2e's alignment restrictions on them.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
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"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Baltas
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Posted - 08 Mar 2015 :  01:48:25  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I imagined the Dark Hunters in 2E as something like Anti-Paladins, an evil variation of the Ranger, with arcane spells, instead of druidic. I think it would fit the Queen of Air and Darkness tendency to twist nature, to create a twisted version of the ranger, who in 1e and 2e, represented the good side of Nature. Just an idea through.

Also, I'm happy people like you produce new second edition stuff. I really like 2E with players options, even though I started with 3.5 and I'm happy when I see new fanwork to 2E.

[EDIT]
Also, I mostly presented the Dark Hunter, as an example of sorts, that priest of the Queen of Air and Darkness, could have access to some arcane spells, on their spell lists.

Edited by - Baltas on 08 Mar 2015 03:49:46
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Baltas
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Posted - 14 Mar 2015 :  12:43:52  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also AuldDragon, have you thought about the deities introduced with Serpent Kingdoms, like M'daess, and Ssharstrune? Although Ssharstrune, might be just the original form of Shar and Selune, or the reptillian interpretation of them.

Edited by - Baltas on 14 Mar 2015 13:39:05
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AuldDragon
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Posted - 14 Mar 2015 :  21:49:59  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Also AuldDragon, have you thought about the deities introduced with Serpent Kingdoms, like M'daess, and Ssharstrune? Although Ssharstrune, might be just the original form of Shar and Selune, or the reptillian interpretation of them.



I don't know yet. Not really a fan of Serpent Kingdoms, though.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
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Baltas
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Posted - 15 Mar 2015 :  14:03:37  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Didn't know that. Any particular reason you don't like this book? As I like it quite much.
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AuldDragon
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Posted - 17 Mar 2015 :  09:13:03  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Didn't know that. Any particular reason you don't like this book? As I like it quite much.



To a great extent I don't like the creator races being detailed, and I tend to have different views on what creatures could/should be "evolved" from them. In general, I was just turned off by the material (pretty common with a LOT of 3e material, and I admit to being biased); I don't remember any specifics at this point, as it was a while since I last read through it.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
Let's Play Old Games: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."

Edited by - AuldDragon on 17 Mar 2015 09:13:49
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Baltas
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Posted - 19 Mar 2015 :  17:11:00  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, you didn't include in Jaizirian's article, his connection with Asmodeus, and Guide to Hell, suggested they were two very close aspects of the World Serpent. Does it mean you don't like this connection, or the Guide to Hell? Dicefreaks, who go with Guide to Hell canon, also disliked the idea of Jaizirian and Asmodeus' connection, and made a diffrent beig connected to Asmodeus.

Also, I wonder if Vaprak, anbsorbed/subsumed a deity, or demon lord, worshipped by Trolls, and it ended up changing, and corrupting him, like with Selvetarm and Zanassu. Of course, Vaprak could be allready evil before he absorbed the demon lord, just became more monstrous, and mindless after that.
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