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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Feb 2014 : 09:01:10
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And I've already found a mistake unless I missed something somewhere. One of the characters in the novel 'called upon' Kiriansalee. I thought her name was erased from the minds of all beings? I suppose RLB could have used her name just to avoid confusion, but then why would anyone call upon a deity whose name they couldn't even remember?
Perhaps something will pan out later in the book to explain this (but I'm doubtful).
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I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2014 : 09:18:34
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The possibilities are 2:
1)The gods are already back (Ao or whatever has already restored all of them, reverting changes that may prevent them from being worshipped)
2)The reason for that ''calling upon Kiaransalee'' is something that will be explained later in the book.
I'm glad to see more and more names of the Drow Pantheon getting some attention. Only two MIA are Eilistraee and Selvertarm. I hope we get to see something of them too (and I hope that they do not pull out the ''sacrifice'' BS card for Eilistraee: that act made very little sense, as she accomplished basically nothing that her people needed with it -and nothing that they couldn't do as drow- while turning her back to the vast majority of the ones who needed her. That is not something that E would do at all). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 06 Feb 2014 09:23:07 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2014 : 09:43:25
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1) But if they are back now when did folks start to become of aware of that fact? Nothing I've seen anywhere indicates that Faerun at large is aware of their presence at this time...unless you count the scene I just mentioned (it's about 30 pages into the book). Thing is, the return of 'dead' gods is a BIG DEAL and should have major coverage when it happens...not just some passing sentence in a novel.
2) Yes that's possible but I don't get the sense that it's going to happen. But hey, I'm only on the second chapter so we will see.
I agree with the pointless sacrifice of E (unless there was some other plan in motion...Corellon did sit down at the sava board). Either way, it was a poor resolution to the story, IMO. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2014 : 09:56:16
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
1) But if they are back now when did folks start to become of aware of that fact? Nothing I've seen anywhere indicates that Faerun at large is aware of their presence at this time...unless you count the scene I just mentioned (it's about 30 pages into the book). Thing is, the return of 'dead' gods is a BIG DEAL and should have major coverage when it happens...not just some passing sentence in a novel.
True. Maybe gods are making people aware of their return, that's why people are calling upon them once again. Still, I agree with you, but I wouldn't expect much else, when the whole point of the Sundering (AFAIK) is ''the Realms go from being a mess to normality: Ao let them break to teach the gods a lesson and then, after 100+ years of cataclysms, he/she/it decided fo fix them''.
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2) Yes that's possible but I don't get the sense that it's going to happen. But hey, I'm only on the second chapter so we will see.
Idk, is the person who called upon K a relevant character, or is it just an off-scene? If so, you may be right.
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I agree with the pointless sacrifice of E (unless there was some other plan in motion...Corellon did sit down at the sava board). Either way, it was a poor resolution to the story, IMO.
It depends on the plan. If it consisted of E replacing herself with her father... no. She wouldn't ever give up her quest to someone else, it's hers, she dedicated so much to it. Either way, the transformation was not needed, or I'd even say not wanted by her people. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 06 Feb 2014 10:04:46 |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2014 : 11:21:26
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From what I got, the whole point of the new approach to the god-drama is it's deliberately not focused on. So we don't get much explanation on them at all, we just have to assume "something" happened in the meantime and fill in as desired. Especially since we haven't had a lot of information on drow non-Lolth religious types anyhow, and Kiaransalee returning isn't a big deal for anyone else, pretty much.
Bad side, if you want detail on what the gods are up to, tough luck. Good side? Well, for those who didn't like Kiaransalee's name being erased (myself included), it's much better than the status quo. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2014 : 13:03:12
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My only conclusion is that it is what I and others suspected it would be - WHY they are back (the details) are going to be left unknown, and up to US to fill-in (for our individual campaigns).
'Hazy' canon = good for game, BAD for the novel line. Not sure what they are trying to accomplish. Hopefully the new campaign guide will give us more detail, so I am still in "wait & see" mode. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2014 : 14:01:17
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Well the following chapter basically makes it clear that the gods are back (and really the last book did that as well with all of the examples of Chosen running around). But, as you guys just mentioned...so far no explanations but I'm thinking that will be the last book and/or the CG. Either way, I'm glad we have our deities back.
Edit: Ok just to clarify...there is a minor explanation for one deity's absence/return but so far it is left unexplained. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
Edited by - The Arcanamach on 06 Feb 2014 14:02:41 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2014 : 14:15:00
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Well the following chapter basically makes it clear that the gods are back (and really the last book did that as well with all of the examples of Chosen running around). But, as you guys just mentioned...so far no explanations but I'm thinking that will be the last book and/or the CG. Either way, I'm glad we have our deities back.
Fair enough, I guess.
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Edit: Ok just to clarify...there is a minor explanation for one deity's absence/return but so far it is left unexplained.
Which one, if I may know? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2014 : 14:51:50
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SPOILER ALERT
Lathander, one of the main characters states that he had to change what he was for a time but now he's back. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
Edited by - The Arcanamach on 06 Feb 2014 14:52:16 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2014 : 14:59:16
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
SPOILER ALERT
Thank you.
SPOILER (highlight to read)
What about Amaunator then? Does it say why Lathander had to turn into him? Are they separate deities now? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2014 : 19:14:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My only conclusion is that it is what I and others suspected it would be - WHY they are back (the details) are going to be left unknown, and up to US to fill-in (for our individual campaigns).
'Hazy' canon = good for game, BAD for the novel line. Not sure what they are trying to accomplish. Hopefully the new campaign guide will give us more detail, so I am still in "wait & see" mode.
Agreed. I hope we get *a bit* of information, at least so we can know how to play out divine influence in the Realms and don't have to make it all up (which as we've pointed out before, is lazy design). I am making a generalisation - we all know the return of Mystra, for instance, has lots of plot elements and is not being left completely mysterious. It seems there are other explanations coming around, like the one about Lathander that The Arcanamach mentioned. It just might not be the big, detailed, history some of us want, but it's a fair compromise if they pull it off. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2014 : 23:31:45
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Thinking more on this, they've already explained it... and also NOT explained it. Confusing, aren't I? 
They've given us the ultimate 'McGuffin' - two in a row, actually. Abeir comes into conjunction with Toril (forcibly, thanks to the Spellplague), and 'stuff gets swapped around'. Thus, any changes they wanted to make for 4e was hand-waved with that one mega-explanation. The same goes for 5eFR and The Sundering... and they are not mutually exclusive. What that means is, our explanation can be as simple as a tiny sentence - "Ao made it so". Easy-Peasy, but not exactly stellar.
Thats the 'quick & dirty' answer, and I am sure they'll give us at least a couple of paragraphs to pad that out, but thats really all we need. Would the people (characters) in the setting even know changes have been made? I've used the Ravenloft example before - when lands get absorbed by other worlds, the 'history' changes accordingly, and in FR we have already had something VERY similar happen - after the ToT, Ao made everyone slowly forget about his existence. So on some level, RL's 'Dark Powers' is/are the Overgod of the Domains of Dread, and on-par with Ao (in that regard as 'spheric guardian'). Overgods do not need explanations - they simply alter reality.
And it fits. The long answer is something like this: There are certain 'rules' in-place in the universe. The local (world) rules are controlled by the Overgod, or if not controlled, then at least adjudicated over. In The Realms, these rules are called The Tablets of Fate (at least the portion governing the powers and responsibilities of 'the gods'). For awhile Ao got lax, and allowed the gods to stray a bit from those rules, to the point where some of them even stole the rulebook! He got pissed, and sent them all to the mortal world (the Avatar Crisis) to punish them. Instead of learning their lesson, most of them tried to 'cheat' (Mystra incouded!), and/or carry-out divine vendettas, rather then play nice (as apparently the non-Farûnian pantheons did).
So when all was said-and-done, he breaks The Tablets of Fate - a metaphor for abolishing the rules that govern the gods. This is when Shar's Dark Chronology kicks-in; the timeline veered from its Fate (destiny) and a new timeline was created. In order to teach them the lesson they weren't willing to learn during the Time of Troubles, he decided to show them what the world would be like without those rules.
And that was 'The wailing years' (NOT 4e). The year of the Ageless One (year 1 of 4e) was actually the prelude for the changes yet to come, or rather, the 'repairs'. School was out, the lessons all learned (or so he hopes), and now he is 'putting things back the way they ought to have been'. 4e allowed us to see the horror the deities created with their pettiness - we HATED that world because we were supposed to; it was purgatory... and now we have 'a new beginning'. Its not a RW reset - the timeline continues forward from 4e - but it it IS an in-setting reset; Ao is putting things back to the way they were supposed to be, but he isn't just snapping his fingers (well.. he is... but its more complicated then that) - he is 'smoothing out the wrinkles' between the two timelines to get the false one back on the right track (rather then allow it to continue down the path it was headed. So instead of a 'one-way road to the apocalypse', he turned it into a bad detour (like one of those ones the kids in those horror movies always take).
The world is still changed, but for the gods, things are as they should have been. Its their second chance; they've seen what their strife did - some of them even 'died' - and now that they've gotten a taste of what its like without rules, Ao flips the switch and the rules are back on. People's memories of the past century fade like a bad dream.
And thats the long version. At least, all IMHO. YMMV  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Feb 2014 23:44:12 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2014 : 00:45:55
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| @Irennen: I don't know yet, nothing has been said about it so far. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2014 : 18:51:08
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| I believe that in the next novel the Sentiel the drow Goddess of undeath is the main villian, so yes it appears she has returned. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2014 : 15:39:32
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If I remember Denning's interview from a few months back, the paladin featured in "The Sentinel" is the Chosen of Helm. And the "accomplished thief" mentioned in the synopsis is definitely Malik (the Chosen of Cyric). Now there are 2 things I can't figure out.
1) Why would a group of surface dwellers care anything about Kiaransalee? She wasn't a particularly popular goddess among the drow, so I'm not sure why she would merit such attention from clerics of human gods (or a novel dedicated toward stopping her).
2) What are the drow still doing in the Underdark? Shade and Thay are at war with virtually everyone now, so this is the perfect opportunity for the drow to gain a foothold on the surface. Also, the synopsis for "Rise of the King" makes it clear that the Kingdom of Many Arrows will soon be on the warpath as well. If the drow don't move now, they won't get another chance like this. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2014 : 16:28:27
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quote:
What are the drow still doing in the Underdark? Shade and Thay are at war with virtually everyone now, so this is the perfect opportunity for the drow to gain a foothold on the surface.
WotC doesn't always think such things through before jumping on an idea (i.e. work through the effects of A on area B leading to outcome C).
quote:
If the drow don't move now, they won't get another chance like this.
Just my personal opinion but I prefer the drow largely stay below ground. They were more interesting before they became so common in the literature. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2014 : 16:36:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
1) Why would a group of surface dwellers care anything about Kiaransalee? She wasn't a particularly popular goddess among the drow, so I'm not sure why she would merit such attention from clerics of human gods (or a novel dedicated toward stopping her).
Idk, they could be facing a threat posed by K, possibly w/o even knowing that she is behind it. Also, novels shouldn't be exclusively given to characters that are powerful/popular in-world, but to interesting/peculiar characters as well. That said, I don't like K that much, but they might have some nice ideas for her.
quote:
2) What are the drow still doing in the Underdark? Shade and Thay are at war with virtually everyone now, so this is the perfect opportunity for the drow to gain a foothold on the surface. Also, the synopsis for "Rise of the King" makes it clear that the Kingdom of Many Arrows will soon be on the warpath as well. If the drow don't move now, they won't get another chance like this.
Another one of Lolth's ''big plans'' has just been defeated and -AFAIK- drow rarely embark on such great quests w/o some mandate guiding them. Also it's not exactly easy to come up with a smart action path and accordance about it among the drow leaders, with all the random backstabbing they do. It's basically the reason why most of them are still confined in a bunch of underground cities, instead of progressing and building nations. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 09 Feb 2014 16:41:17 |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2014 : 21:50:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
If I remember Denning's interview from a few months back, the paladin featured in "The Sentinel" is the Chosen of Helm. And the "accomplished thief" mentioned in the synopsis is definitely Malik (the Chosen of Cyric). Now there are 2 things I can't figure out.
2) What are the drow still doing in the Underdark? Shade and Thay are at war with virtually everyone now, so this is the perfect opportunity for the drow to gain a foothold on the surface. Also, the synopsis for "Rise of the King" makes it clear that the Kingdom of Many Arrows will soon be on the warpath as well. If the drow don't move now, they won't get another chance like this.
I think we will learn what the drow are up to with Bob's book next month. He said he was messing around with Menzo.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2014 : 03:48:21
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| Just finished the book today. Didn't it state in the book that K was a "vanished power", or am I missing something too? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2014 : 13:50:47
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| I found reading The Reaver the most enjoyable of the Sundering series so far. And Salvatore's Night of the Hunter is his best book since Siege of Darkness I believe. Can't wait to get my hands on The Sentinel. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2014 : 20:03:54
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Well, I just finished the Reaver, and to be completely honest I was extremely disappointed. It was all filler, with characters that I couldn't really identify with or even appreciate. It had practically no metastory, other than the ongoing "something big is happening" and no reveals or "aha!" moments. It seemed too crafted, and nothing was really a surprise.
I'm also not happy with bumping into Chosen literally everywhere. This started in Erin's book, and I hated it there. And even with all these Chosen milling around, we still don't have a good idea what's going on with the gods. Spellplague still features heavily, though some areas were cleansed in this novel. But it wasn't interesting or mysterious, I just didn't care.
This whole Sundering business is taking far too long, and we still have nothing in terms of meaning or explanation. I suspect that the next two books will similarly be devoid of reveals, and that suddenly we will just have a "reborn" Realms where various gods are back and nothing is actually explained. This approach actually makes the entire Spellplague / timejump much worse and harder to swallow, and I'm less motivated than ever to pick up a 5E Realms if it means I have to choke down the jagged pill of 4E Realms as history and expect nothing to be revealed.
Sorry, it's just no longer working for me. Salvatore's book gave me some hope, Kemp's book even more, but then I started to falter with Erin's book (mostly because of the glut of new Chosen). The Reaver just fell flat. I probably won't be getting the next two books, sorry to say.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2014 : 20:34:52
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<deleted before thread derail beings>
To each their own, I found it fun reading. I'm guessing Ed will tie things up nicely with the final installation. |
Edited by - Eilserus on 12 Feb 2014 21:25:29 |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2014 : 22:07:36
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Disclaimer: I haven't read any of the Sundering novels, mainly because I'm not much of a fantasy novel reader.
Eltheron, based on what you said, my suggestion is stop buying the Sundering novels (ok, yeah, great suggestion, you were already doing that, just shut up Mapolq), but do give the new FRCS-equivalent a chance.
Reason: given everything that was said about these novels and what people are telling me (everyone) about them, they're following the script to the letter. I'll reiterate this point I made some time ago, because it's important. Despite the name of the series, these are *not* stories about the Sundering. These are stories which happen during the Sundering. They're making the 5e Realms, and the Sundering series, as well as some online stuff, is the prelude to it (so we don't get two years of nothing FR-related being released). I predict there will be no important revelations on the next book, and perhaps a big teaser at the end of the final one. We'll actually start to know what the 5e Realms look like when the first sourcebook is released. In fact, that product, whatever form it takes, will probably set the future of the FR for years to come, so we (and WotC) better hope it's damn good.
Remember - big things are not supposed to happen in novels anymore. Novels won't be serving as metaplot advancement (adventures and meta-events will do that, if anything). Novels will be meant to provide fun reading and bits of Realmslore.
Now, since I didn't read it, I can't say anything about the individual merit of any of the Sundering novels. Maybe you think the Reaver story sucked, and I'm in no position to agree or disagree. But see it this way. Some novels sucking aren't a big problem to the setting, really. You probably have several novels from the entire pre-4e era which you think sucked. What matters is the strategy, and if you liked what they said at the Candlekeep seminars, or at least had an open mind, well take a good look at what you described (no metastory, no reveals, not a good idea of what's happening to the gods, no top-down "here's how it is, period" explanations, at least not in novels) and see how it fits perfectly with what they said they'd be doing from the start. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 12 Feb 2014 22:12:56 |
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Vyrdallen
Acolyte
10 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2014 : 20:51:43
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The very fact there are all these vast numbers of Chosen around are a result of the Sundering, all the gods holding their breath to see what comes.
Also I believe the point is that people maybe remember Kiriansalee because there actually is a Kiaransalee to remember. |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2014 : 13:33:23
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I enjoyed The Reaver. It gives a picture of a few of the changes occurring around the sea of the fallen stars. Umara also provides some neat insights into how a living Thayan feels in Szass Tam's Thay. I do think that the Chosen are a little over played in the novel, but I still enjoyed it.
Eltheron, it has been mentioned at the last two sundering seminars that the perspective of the gods isn't going to be the focus of the sundering seriess. I got the impression that we would never be getting that information. I think that WotC understands that they aren't going to successfully come up with an explanation for the 4e stuff / sundering that is going to please even a majority of people, so they are leaving it vague. That way we can all come up with what works best for us. The sundering series is focused on restoring the realms. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2014 : 14:54:49
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I'm aware that the Sundering novels were supposed to be about more personal, local stories during the Sundering. But something about them (as we are seeing them now) strikes me as empty and hollow.
On the one hand, it was bad having gods like Mystra literally showing up in novels and taking focus away from mortal protagonists.
But here's the problem with the Sundering "plan" as I see it: the gods still have the most interesting story. We know big things are going on with them, that we don't see those things now because we're focused on the local stories. Unfortunately, though, the gods are just invasive enough (Meilikki reincarnating Drizzt's pals, Mask's plan resulting in his rebirth, Asmodeus doing something with his Chosen, and now Lathander letting a mortal borrow his weapon), that they're still right there and are obviously way more important than the small, local story we get to see.
The gods are STILL fully center stage, but we're now only getting glimpses of what they're doing. The actual story isn't local. The story is still global, celestial, planar.
I get that it's way, way, way easier to make everything vague, because on one level it makes it seem mysterious. On another level it's what I'd refer to as "punting" when you could've had a touchdown. It's lazy and weak plotting. If they "couldn't successfully come up with an explanation for the 4E stuff" then they should have simply done a reboot to an older edition.
Instead, we have an explosion of plot elements that many people hated to begin with. The gods are still center stage with the far more interesting story (which now is being withheld from the reader). Everywhere you go, you bump into a Chosen of one deity or another. Spellplague is a central focus, when it was one of the least-liked things about 4E. Novel resolutions still depend on deus ex machina (usually some weapon or special power granted by the gods) rather than a mortal's ingenuity and cunning.
You know how most novels have an A-plot and a B-plot? And sometimes a C-plot? Well, to me, these novels all seem like C-plots: we get teased with glimpses of the A- and B-plots which are more meaningful, more impactful, and more interesting. It's like the A-plot characters (the gods) show up briefly to grant some plot-changing power, but then say, "sorry, gotta run, more serious stuff is happening elsewhere and I can't talk about any of that."
It doesn't matter if the C-plot is good, it's still going to be overshadowed dramatically by the REAL IMPORTANT STUFF which now we're no longer getting.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2014 : 15:32:13
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Yeah, the Sundering is also supposed to be the RSE to end all RSEs. The focus is changing, but the change isn't entirely done yet - because they want to change the direction they were going with the gods and so many other things that most of us hated, and so so they need to do *something*, but at the same time they can't just go on on on about divine drama, bacause that'd just be rightly recognised as more of the same. It's a tricky balance to get right, I admit. But in the long run, as I said, sourcebook-type books are what will make or break 5e FR.
And I fully believe there will be explanations for most of the things. But the explanations won't be final, in-your-face edicts from above. I commented that I don't find that the best possible world either, but that I think it's the best they could do right now. I mean, it allows all the deities that were idiotically slaughtered to (maybe) be back, for example, without having to resort to ridiculous plots (let's face it, a plot resurrecting 20-odd deities not being fricking ridiculous is nigh-impossible, yet they're almost there). Doing a reboot, although many of us would be fairly satisfied, would be brand-suicide in my opinion. If reboots are possible, no one is going to care about what their ideas concerning what to do about the latest sales report do to the setting as a whole anymore, you just open Pandora's box for good.
If the author can't get you interested in the plot despite the fact that there's something bigger happening, well that probably means you don't like the author. Or that book, at least. Novels are supposed to be engaging. It doesn't matter if WW1 is going on and you're reading about a farmer's daughter in Shropshire whose only connection to the war is her brother who enlisted. If the book grabs your attention, that's a success, if it doesn't, it's a failure. Now, if you *expect* to grab that book and read about WW1, that'll likely be a failure - not sure if that applies to you at all, just saying in general. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2014 : 15:35:40
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I just hope that once the Sundering story is told, the Chosen will begin to disappear or at least drop to a handful. Rare enough that you can't literally be bumping into each other. Being a Chosen of a god is one thing, but personally I relate more to a hero being Ribald Barterman of the Adventurer's Mart. Just some shop clerk who turns into a hero.
Considering how Ao gave the gods a slap-down around the Time of Troubles for all their striving, it does strike me as strange as how they are all going nuts trying to position themselves for whatever is after the Sundering. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2014 : 18:01:32
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Since this thread was about the Reaver, let me get back to that and explain why I didn't like it at all.
Let's assume for a moment that I'm "okay" with having the Sundering totally in the background, with minimal reveals, and not something that is looming as a potential disaster/ fascinating world change.
We essentially have the story of a pirate, doing evil pirate things like killing people and kidnapping others for eventual murder-sacrifice. He wasn't just an anti-hero, he was a villain. And not a particularly charming or compelling villain, either. Was he redeemed because he was handed a god-weapon and chose to use it? This is a guy who got caught smuggling, which led to hundreds or thousands of deaths, who then chose a life of piracy and murder. Suddenly for some reason he's handed a god-weapon, so he's redeemed? Awful.
Then we have a female Red Wizard who does typically evil things, who has a few vague yearnings for a better social position in Thay. She suddenly risks her life to turn on her master, motivated by this extremely vague "things might be better someday" idea. For years she's been part of the "system" and yet now she decides to risk everything for a god/faith that she doesn't actually worship? Awful.
And we have Stedd, Chosen of Lathander, who is the the most gigantic Mary Sue that's ever been put into a Realms novel -- and that's saying something when you consider Elminster or the Seven Sisters. Whenever he needs something or things look even slightly bad, BOOM there's Lathander with a cure-all magic hammer (mace), or healing, or whatnot. Awful.
Much of the book is spent running around, or rather running away from the big bad evil guy/monster who also happens to be another Chosen. Given that we know Lathander is coming back, we also know there is zero chance of this bad guy winning. Plus, not only does he have one other god's Chosen set against him, there are FOUR against him.
I'm sorry, but ALL the elements in this novel are what people complained about vigorously before 4E happened. There are so many poor elements, it's practically a parody of peoples' complaints on the pre-4E novels. Too many Chosen with god-granted uber-powers, gods being central to the plot (literally showing up as on-page characters), no real sense of urgency, possible loss or danger, and the good old "lawful stupid" wishy-washy goody-goody protagonist who in this case is Stedd who bizarrely trusts a known murderer/pirate and then regularly endangers everyone by choosing really inopportune moments to preach or act inspirational.
Terrible.
And to top it all off, the far more interesting A-story is essentially being withheld. No reveals, no insight into what AO is doing or what the gods are actually doing.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2014 : 20:53:23
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It does sound very awful from your description. I guess I just don't get why people mind awful novels (not the issue of money and time spent, i get that - I mean in a "future of the Realms" sense). Awful sourcebooks do a hundred times more damage. Novels are canon, but as we've discussed, even the ones with big flashy catastrophes are usually almost ignored later.
The following may sound a bit harsh, but I don't mean it with negativity. If there's one word to describe the Sundering series, that word is "filler". They just have to keep people interested in the Realms and buying something while they do the transition, which must coincide with the release of D&D Next for maximum monification effect or something like that. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 16 Feb 2014 20:54:25 |
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ksu_bond
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
214 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2014 : 22:19:55
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While I can't say that any of these books have been poorly written or weren't enjoyable to read for one reason or anther. The problem still remains that the content, whether purposeful or not, has been "vague" / "fluffy" / "filler" (insert your descriptor of choice) created for no other reason than to tide the Realms base over with "hope" in an effort to keep us interested and eager for when the 5e Realms material is released...
I get that, but it doesn't mean I have to like it...this is similar to many of the complaints that have been voiced time and again regarding WotC's "management" of the Realms and the D&D brand (ie. "If we print, they will BUY it!") This was a big complaint with the release of 3.5, the various 3/3.5 splat books that recycled already published lore on areas that have already been detailed (just presented differently in a new glossy cover), etc...
So my question is, why all the negativity towards those that have reservations about the future of the Realms? I wasn't active online during the transition from 1e to 2e or 2e to 3e, but as anyone at the Keep knows there are still disgruntled feathers over these changes. Many people were skeptical about the transition from 3/3.5 to 4e (myself included) and were treated rather poorly (several of which were active, well respected members some of whom stepped into the shadows with a few even leaving entirely) by a number of people who were "hopeful" about the changes...And now that the "hope" for 4e has faded we are being presented with 5e, and yet again those who are "hopeful" about the future of the Realms are once again going to bat for a product that we know next to nothing about and (for the lack of a better word) "attacking" those that express the slightest skepticism...and I just don't understand it...all this does is create resentment and an increased feeling of disenfranchisement amongst those that are already holding reservations about the future of something that they deeply passionate about...
Incidentally, I'm cautiously optimistic (only because Ed seems to be excited and postive about it) but as of yet I'm not sold on the future of the Realms in 5e due to the simple fact that the company responsible for it's future has lost my trust and respect with it's past actions (call me old fashioned, but I believe that both of those things must be earned, especially once given, misused, and then lost)...and I shouldn't have to apologize or withhold my comments/opinions simply because I'm not choosing to "tow the company" line. |
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Reading The Reaver
