| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 06 Feb 2014 : 09:01:10
And I've already found a mistake unless I missed something somewhere. One of the characters in the novel 'called upon' Kiriansalee. I thought her name was erased from the minds of all beings? I suppose RLB could have used her name just to avoid confusion, but then why would anyone call upon a deity whose name they couldn't even remember?
Perhaps something will pan out later in the book to explain this (but I'm doubtful). |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 12 Mar 2014 : 05:13:15
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
I'd like to get your take on 2 things, Dennis.
1) How did Kymas call upon Kiaransalee, given that her name was supposed to have been erased from the memory of all Faerunians via High Magic? (not that I was a fan of this development)
2) Do you think Riven will make a good Mask? In the Godborn, he admits that he doesn't have a great mind for scheming. I like Riven a great deal, but I must agree. He's no Jarlaxle, Elaith, Manshoon, etc.
To your first question, I think Kiaransalee was not exactly gone. Weak, more or less forgotten, but still existing. More like an idea that can be given form when one knows how to think or call upon it. She's only extinct to the degree that mortals, as opposed to divine beings, understand the word.
To the latter question, as I said in the poll, I really like Mask and Riven. And I want to see them again in future novels, whether by Paul or somebody else. The problem with making a mortal divine, however, is that he is usually set aside, his novel time is very much limited. And this is, I'm afraid, what will happen to Riven. Unless of course they plan to make a ToT-like series. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 12 Mar 2014 : 05:07:20
quote:
Originally posted by Plaguescarred
Thaks Dennis! May i ask how Riven was revealed to be Mask?
Major spoiler, again:
In The Twilight War, we already knew that three beings shared Mask's divinity: Mephistopheles, Rivalen, and Riven. In The Godborn, well, it's kinda a long story, but here's the gist: The Eye of Shar was about to suck the essence of Mask out of the three aforementioned characters. Vasen, Cale's son, stopped that by calling upon Lathander's light. When Shar was distracted enough by the meddling force and while Mephy and Rivalen were held motionless, Riven tried to pull Mask's essence from the Eye and succeeded.
It is unclear though whether Riven still retains his full consciousness or whether Mask had totally consumed his mind. But one thing is clear, Mask is back in Riven's (as Dean Winchester is wont to say) meatsuit. (And Riven's aging bitches [dogs] are now in the hands of someone else.) |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 11 Mar 2014 : 16:21:29
Ah, thanks Dennis. I hadn't seen it. |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 11 Mar 2014 : 15:17:57
I'd like to get your take on 2 things, Dennis.
1) How did Kymas call upon Kiaransalee, given that her name was supposed to have been erased from the memory of all Faerunians via High Magic? (not that I was a fan of this development)
2) Do you think Riven will make a good Mask? In the Godborn, he admits that he doesn't have a great mind for scheming. I like Riven a great deal, but I must agree. He's no Jarlaxle, Elaith, Manshoon, etc. |
| Plaguescarred |
Posted - 11 Mar 2014 : 09:51:11
Thaks Dennis! May i ask how Riven was revealed to be Mask? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 11 Mar 2014 : 05:29:46
quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
Dennis, you should probably avoid that spoiler or mark it better, since this is a thread for The Reaver, not Godborn, and some people may be misled.
I, on the other hand, don't mind spoilers and am unlikely to ever read the book, so I'd really like if you could elaborate. 
I started a poll on it late last year. Click here. |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 11 Mar 2014 : 03:26:49
Dennis, you should probably avoid that spoiler or mark it better, since this is a thread for The Reaver, not Godborn, and some people may be misled.
I, on the other hand, don't mind spoilers and am unlikely to ever read the book, so I'd really like if you could elaborate. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 11 Mar 2014 : 03:13:45
quote:
Originally posted by Plaguescarred
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
So far, we have the following official resurrections or (if you’d like to think they were just hibernating) reappearances to date: Lathander (no surprise there), Nobanion, Malar, Umberlee, Velsharoon, Bhaal, and Mystra.
So far, there’s fair enough details on Lathander’s and Mask’s return, and recently, Nobanion’s.
Has Mask reappeared or you meant Malar? Because Mask doesn't appear on your list in the first paragraph.
If Mask is back, i'd like to know how please...
Thanks
He did. Major spoiler:
Riven is now Mask. (Details on PSK's The Godborn. An excellent book, by the way. ) |
| Plaguescarred |
Posted - 10 Mar 2014 : 22:30:27
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
So far, we have the following official resurrections or (if you’d like to think they were just hibernating) reappearances to date: Lathander (no surprise there), Nobanion, Malar, Umberlee, Velsharoon, Bhaal, and Mystra.
So far, there’s fair enough details on Lathander’s and Mask’s return, and recently, Nobanion’s.
Has Mask reappeared or you meant Malar ? Because Mask doesn't appear on your list in the first paragraph.
If Mask is back, i'd like to know how please...
Thanks |
| Dennis |
Posted - 10 Mar 2014 : 14:32:44
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
I loved the Reaver. Surprised to see such dislike on here, but to each their own. I feel like it will tie in to the brotherhood of the gryphon. So far the only better book for me in the Sundering was Godborn.
Agreed. I was surprised myself. But then again, I'm rather partial to everything Red Wizard.
quote:
Currently reading the Sentinel and enjoying.
ARC? I understand the official release date is April 1. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 10 Mar 2014 : 05:02:05
Sleyvas, I'm away from my book right now, so I can't quote the exact phrasing, but here's how it happened and how I understood it (spoilers, of course). Kymas, the vampire Red Wizard, summoned the powers of Velsharoon and Kiaransalee to fight Evendur Highcastle, the Bitch Queen's Chosen. The book notes (and I paraphrase here) that such entities are extinct, but they still hold some sway in the fabric of reality. So it may mean that they were not altogether gone, perhaps just hibernating, or they're extinct only to the sense that mortals deem the word extinct. Otherwise, calling upon them for some powerboost in spells wouldn't have been possible.
Irennan, you're welcome!
Wooly, I agree. Though this explanation is not entirely new. If you follow the The Brotherhood of the Griffon series, you'll notice an explanation similar to that one I quoted above.
--------------------------
Sleyvas, found it. Read if you don't mind spoilers (highlight mine).
quote:
Kymas then growled and hissed an incantation in the tongue of Thanatos, the Belly of Death, the layer of the Abyss where Orcus, Prince of the Undead, held sway. Now that liches, ghosts, and their ilk controlled the councils of the Red Wizards, the language had come into fashion for many sorts of magic, and Umara had perforce mastered it even though simply listening to it made her lightheaded and queasy.
It had an effect on Kymas, too. His upper canines lengthened, and his eyes became chatoyant, flashing in the emerald light like mirrors.
As his recitation continued, he invoked Orcus and the demon prince’s vassals Glyphimbor, Sleepless, and Doresain the Ghoul King. He called on Kiaransalee and Velsharoon as well, extinct powers whose names nonetheless still exerted pressure on the fabric of All.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Mar 2014 : 04:20:08
I like that explanation for Lathander and Amaunator better than the three alternating deities of the sun one. That one has always seemed like one of those ideas whose coolness wasn't enough to overcome the difficulties of its implementation. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 09 Mar 2014 : 21:59:30
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
A bit late to the party. I’m kinda lazy to individually quote my fellow scribes’ words, so I’ll just list my replies per subject brought up. Note that I only read about half of the total number of posts on the first page, so pardon me if my replies happen to be paraphrased versions of a few. I promise to read the rest when I’m able.
On Kiaransalee: The simple answer is, the gods are back. So far, we have the following official resurrections or (if you’d like to think they were just hibernating) reappearances to date: Lathander (no surprise there), Nobanion, Malar, Umberlee, Velsharoon, Bhaal, and Mystra.
Note that the one who summoned Kiaransalee and Velasharoon’s powers is a major character in the book, a master Red Wizard who’s also a vampire.
On the explanation on why and how the gods have returned: Half or most of the bulk of the explanation may be left unknown, or will be gradually used in the novel line. So far, there’s fair enough details on Lathander’s and Mask’s return, and recently, Nobanion’s. We learned that his spirit, his most powerful aspect/avatar, had been rendered crazy by the Spellplague, plaguing the forest near Turmish. Stedd, Lathander’s Chosen, who took time to “understand” the bluefire in the Plague Lands he and his companions happened upon, helped rid of Nobanion’s insanity.
On Amaunator and Lanthander: Let’s just take a look at the exact words from the novel:
quote:
What did matter was that Amaunator, the Keeper of the Yellow Sun, and Lathander were the same deity, give or take. To the extent that Stedd understood it, Amaunator, the celestial timekeeper, was the role the god assumed when the universe required a force for stability above all else. Now that that era was passing, and the need for hope and new beginnings was paramount, he was becoming the Morninglord once more.
Thanks for the clarifications. I kinda like their solution of the Amaunator/Lathander issue, it makes sense. |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 09 Mar 2014 : 21:12:04
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
A bit late to the party. I’m kinda lazy to individually quote my fellow scribes’ words, so I’ll just list my replies per subject brought up. Note that I only read about half of the total number of posts on the first page, so pardon me if my replies happen to be paraphrased versions of a few. I promise to read the rest when I’m able.
On Kiaransalee: The simple answer is, the gods are back. So far, we have the following official resurrections or (if you’d like to think they were just hibernating) reappearances to date: Lathander (no surprise there), Nobanion, Malar, Umberlee, Velsharoon, Bhaal, and Mystra.
Note that the one who summoned Kiaransalee and Velasharoon’s powers is a major character in the book, a master Red Wizard who’s also a vampire.
On the explanation on why and how the gods have returned: Half or most of the bulk of the explanation may be left unknown, or will be gradually used in the novel line. So far, there’s fair enough details on Lathander’s and Mask’s return, and recently, Nobanion’s. We learned that his spirit, his most powerful aspect/avatar, had been rendered crazy by the Spellplague, plaguing the forest near Turmish. Stedd, Lathander’s Chosen, who took time to “understand” the bluefire in the Plague Lands he and his companions happened upon, helped rid of Nobanion’s insanity.
On Amaunator and Lanthander: Let’s just take a look at the exact words from the novel:
quote:
What did matter was that Amaunator, the Keeper of the Yellow Sun, and Lathander were the same deity, give or take. To the extent that Stedd understood it, Amaunator, the celestial timekeeper, was the role the god assumed when the universe required a force for stability above all else. Now that that era was passing, and the need for hope and new beginnings was paramount, he was becoming the Morninglord once more.
WOOT, we have a definite on Velsharoon being back? I need to start the reaver as my next book (probably do that tonight). I hadn't read Salvatore's yet because I've been catching up on all the OLD books of his (yeah, I'm like 10 or so behind, but I've read about 7 of the REALLY old ones in the last few months)
Yeah in prepartion for the sundering I caught up on all of Salvatore's DRizzt books at least. Loved them all.
I find the best sundering novel so far to be the Reaver. The other ones are good as well. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 09 Mar 2014 : 15:48:52
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
A bit late to the party. I’m kinda lazy to individually quote my fellow scribes’ words, so I’ll just list my replies per subject brought up. Note that I only read about half of the total number of posts on the first page, so pardon me if my replies happen to be paraphrased versions of a few. I promise to read the rest when I’m able.
On Kiaransalee: The simple answer is, the gods are back. So far, we have the following official resurrections or (if you’d like to think they were just hibernating) reappearances to date: Lathander (no surprise there), Nobanion, Malar, Umberlee, Velsharoon, Bhaal, and Mystra.
Note that the one who summoned Kiaransalee and Velasharoon’s powers is a major character in the book, a master Red Wizard who’s also a vampire.
On the explanation on why and how the gods have returned: Half or most of the bulk of the explanation may be left unknown, or will be gradually used in the novel line. So far, there’s fair enough details on Lathander’s and Mask’s return, and recently, Nobanion’s. We learned that his spirit, his most powerful aspect/avatar, had been rendered crazy by the Spellplague, plaguing the forest near Turmish. Stedd, Lathander’s Chosen, who took time to “understand” the bluefire in the Plague Lands he and his companions happened upon, helped rid of Nobanion’s insanity.
On Amaunator and Lanthander: Let’s just take a look at the exact words from the novel:
quote:
What did matter was that Amaunator, the Keeper of the Yellow Sun, and Lathander were the same deity, give or take. To the extent that Stedd understood it, Amaunator, the celestial timekeeper, was the role the god assumed when the universe required a force for stability above all else. Now that that era was passing, and the need for hope and new beginnings was paramount, he was becoming the Morninglord once more.
WOOT, we have a definite on Velsharoon being back? I need to start the reaver as my next book (probably do that tonight). I hadn't read Salvatore's yet because I've been catching up on all the OLD books of his (yeah, I'm like 10 or so behind, but I've read about 7 of the REALLY old ones in the last few months) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 09 Mar 2014 : 09:50:17
A bit late to the party. I’m kinda lazy to individually quote my fellow scribes’ words, so I’ll just list my replies per subject brought up. Note that I only read about half of the total number of posts on the first page, so pardon me if my replies happen to be paraphrased versions of a few. I promise to read the rest when I’m able.
On Kiaransalee: The simple answer is, the gods are back. So far, we have the following official resurrections or (if you’d like to think they were just hibernating) reappearances to date: Lathander (no surprise there), Nobanion, Malar, Umberlee, Velsharoon, Bhaal, and Mystra.
Note that the one who summoned Kiaransalee and Velasharoon’s powers is a major character in the book, a master Red Wizard who’s also a vampire.
On the explanation on why and how the gods have returned: Half or most of the bulk of the explanation may be left unknown, or will be gradually used in the novel line. So far, there’s fair enough details on Lathander’s and Mask’s return, and recently, Nobanion’s. We learned that his spirit, his most powerful aspect/avatar, had been rendered crazy by the Spellplague, plaguing the forest near Turmish. Stedd, Lathander’s Chosen, who took time to “understand” the bluefire in the Plague Lands he and his companions happened upon, helped rid of Nobanion’s insanity.
On Amaunator and Lanthander: Let’s just take a look at the exact words from the novel:
quote:
What did matter was that Amaunator, the Keeper of the Yellow Sun, and Lathander were the same deity, give or take. To the extent that Stedd understood it, Amaunator, the celestial timekeeper, was the role the god assumed when the universe required a force for stability above all else. Now that that era was passing, and the need for hope and new beginnings was paramount, he was becoming the Morninglord once more.
|
| Mapolq |
Posted - 22 Feb 2014 : 19:27:57
Thanks for the comments, Eltheron.
I don't think Entopy already devoured Chessenta, rather it is starting to. Unless that changed in one of the products I didn't read. |
| Eltheron |
Posted - 22 Feb 2014 : 17:34:17
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, so her death could have been something like a stab in Ao's kidney. Shar may even have known that this could be a way to attack Ao.
The fact that Talos disappeared and Entropy became active as basically a giant sphere of annihilation/black hole absorbing Chessenta may also have something to do with all this (it being stated that Entropy was a primordial frozen in the sphere form by Ao in a dragon article.... but other 3.5 lore seems to indicate that Entropy was the body for the elder evil Pandorym whose mind was separated out and imprisoned by the Imaskari in a Crystalline Prison). Perhaps Talos had some kind of linkage to Entropy/Pandorym, such that when it was freed, the deity was destroyed.
Wow. Okay, I guess I need to do some additional reading on the Chessenta situation because I had not heard of that at all.
I knew about Talos/Gruumsh, but really - a gigantic black hole / annihilation sphere devouring Chessenta? That sounds really, really bad. In an eye-rolling "damn, that's dumb" way. Where was this revealed? In the 4E guide, maybe?
How could anyone stop a giant black hole other than a god? Some of the old AD&D magic items were just insanely overpowered.
|
| Eltheron |
Posted - 22 Feb 2014 : 17:28:09
quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
(snip)
I kept posting because I felt like my points were being misunderstood, which may very well have been my fault, and I wanted to correct that. I'm leaving the thread because it seems to have created some stress which I don't think will make anyone more satisfied. In another thread some people have felt there was a climate of animosity due to some of my posts, and I don't want to give that impression, thus the pause here. But I'll be happy to discuss other things with Eltheron and all the others, or even return to the subject at a later date.
I don't feel that there was any animosity on your part, and I hope I have not come across that way. If so, I apologize - not my intent either. I will say, I sometimes may come across as somewhat cold or analytical, which can also be perceived as a kind of animosity. Having been trained for analytical, logical, and philosophical debate, I relish the opportunity to work out "fiddly bits" as my mother would say. Anyway, I do think we differ slightly in our interpretations and what we stress within certain definitions. But for the most part I think we agree on many things.
I do understand your points. But where we do differ: I don't believe that there was no hope of a truly creative "out" for 4E. And that's something that is tied to personal belief more than actual fact (for both of us, really - I mean, can we ever really know? Probably not). I also highly value novels, both for reading and as source material, so their quality is of paramount concern IMO. But I fully understand why they, like RPGA adventures and D&D Encounters modules, aren't seen as important to the setting by every fan. Myself, I have tended to utterly dismiss RPGA/Encounters - though I think with WotC's current publishing focus, it may no longer be prudent to totally ignore them.
The diversity in what we fans appreciate, and what we find important, is also - well, important. I respect your choices and beliefs about the setting and the events/material in the Sundering, even if I don't necessarily agree on all points.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Feb 2014 : 22:58:15
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just another factor you could add in here. In another thread I was noting that Mystryl and Ao were both referred to as "the hidden one". If Ao somehow seized the raw energies of Selune and Shar that were merged and maybe formed Mystryl with a portion of his own power... then when Mystra was killed, that might have been also like someone stabbing Ao. Some will say "Mystra and Mystryl have died before", but in truth Mystryl simply lost control for a few seconds and then absorbed a human girl.... and Mystra 1.0 was not a deity at the time of her death... so Mystra 2.0's "death" may have been the first true and sudden death of the goddess of magic since the twinning of the worlds.
Definitely and interesting thought. If they both have the same descriptor name, this makes me wonder if Mystra isn't somehow a part of AO. Perhaps the original Mystryl was an avatar of AO, combined with portions of Selune and Shar, her purpose to ensure the greater balance and always stand between the two diametrically opposed goddesses. Perhaps that is why Mystra has always been more powerful than the other gods, and is effectively unkillable.
There are lots of interesting directions one could run with this. Perhaps Mystryl even "allowed" Karsus to make his attempt, if she had grown bored with being the eternal lynchpin. Only when Karsus couldn't effectively take control did she step in to stop Cosmic Interplanar damage from occurring. Even then, she may have compounded her mistake by taking on a mortal avatar: giving her a mortal perspective that clouded her neutrality from that point onward.
Yeah, so her death could have been something like a stab in Ao's kidney. Shar may even have known that this could be a way to attack Ao.
The fact that Talos disappeared and Entropy became active as basically a giant sphere of annihilation/black hole absorbing Chessenta may also have something to do with all this (it being stated that Entropy was a primordial frozen in the sphere form by Ao in a dragon article.... but other 3.5 lore seems to indicate that Entropy was the body for the elder evil Pandorym whose mind was separated out and imprisoned by the Imaskari in a Crystalline Prison). Perhaps Talos had some kind of linkage to Entropy/Pandorym, such that when it was freed, the deity was destroyed. |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 21 Feb 2014 : 19:35:20
This is my last post concerning the subject, though I don't find anything strange about discussing definitions at all, actually I find it extremely important so one can be reasonably confident they're being understood.
I had already mentioned the artificial and contrived nature of deus-ex-machina. A person suddenly dying from slipping in a puddle and hitting their head on a rock is (usually) artificial and contrived. Artificial and contrived don't mean impossible or supernatural. And they are not exactly referring to the probability of someone dying from, say, a household accident in the span of a story (though those would also usually be very low). They are intrinsically connected to the construction of the story. If your character dies from a disease, and only after the fact it is revealed to the audience that he knew for a fact he was about to die (but the story so far completely ignored the implications of that), it does not matter if the probability of him dying was enormous, the plot device was artificial, in the sense that it was deliberately created by the author to solve the problem at hand without concern for any other story elements that were established previously.
My point is you cannot "fix" the Realms without deus-ex-machina or essentially rebuilding it from scratch because the 4e FRCG left exactly zero story elements open that could lead to an even moderately satisfying conclusion, or at least no one has ever been able to show me one. I have never seen anything in the hundred-plus Realms books I've read that could possibly foreshadow the reformation of a destroyed world as it was a century before. Granted, there's so much stuff that a fake, post-hoc foreshadowing could potentially be found. It could be something simplistic, silly even. If there was an Year of the Unwinding in the roll of years, that'd be a starting point, for example. But there's nothing even as vague as that.
As for it being bad writing, yes, I guess I was just giving my personal opinion there. I suppose deus-ex-machina is pretty much universally considered something to avoid, but I don't overly mind it. That's because I'm largely concerned with how the world works at each slice of time. How it got there can be interesting too, but I'm able to happily ignore it for the most part if it's bad. If they pulled off the silliest plot device in D&D history and restored the Realms to a pre-4e state with Ao flicking a big switch, while still somehow keeping the 1400s Realms as canon, I'd be very happy. Not surprisingly, I'd be very happy with an official reboot as well. But I know lots of people wouldn't be, and that's why I say I couldn't expect more than what we're seeing. I guess that's all about where we sit on a total reboot versus smooth transition continuum, and where we think WotC should be on that continuum. I think they're about in the middle, which makes sense since they are desperately trying to keep the largest possible number of people at least a bit engaged. And that's pretty much what they said they'd be doing. Thus my reasonable confidence in their honesty, if nothing else.
And yes, I also agree the Red Wedding is not a deus-ex-machina. That was a badly constructed point on my part.
PS. I have no intention of "winning" either, I kept posting because I felt like my points were being misunderstood, which may very well have been my fault, and I wanted to correct that. I'm leaving that particular dicussion because it seems to have created some stress which I don't think will make anyone more satisfied. In another thread some people have felt there was a climate of animosity due to some of my posts, and I don't want to give that impression, thus the pause here. But I'll be happy to discuss other things with Eltheron and all the others, or even return to the subject at a later date. |
| Eltheron |
Posted - 21 Feb 2014 : 19:23:21
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just another factor you could add in here. In another thread I was noting that Mystryl and Ao were both referred to as "the hidden one". If Ao somehow seized the raw energies of Selune and Shar that were merged and maybe formed Mystryl with a portion of his own power... then when Mystra was killed, that might have been also like someone stabbing Ao. Some will say "Mystra and Mystryl have died before", but in truth Mystryl simply lost control for a few seconds and then absorbed a human girl.... and Mystra 1.0 was not a deity at the time of her death... so Mystra 2.0's "death" may have been the first true and sudden death of the goddess of magic since the twinning of the worlds.
Definitely and interesting thought. If they both have the same descriptor name, this makes me wonder if Mystra isn't somehow a part of AO. Perhaps the original Mystryl was an avatar of AO, combined with portions of Selune and Shar, her purpose to ensure the greater balance and always stand between the two diametrically opposed goddesses. Perhaps that is why Mystra has always been more powerful than the other gods, and is effectively unkillable.
There are lots of interesting directions one could run with this. Perhaps Mystryl even "allowed" Karsus to make his attempt, if she had grown bored with being the eternal lynchpin. Only when Karsus couldn't effectively take control did she step in to stop Cosmic Interplanar damage from occurring. Even then, she may have compounded her mistake by taking on a mortal avatar: giving her a mortal perspective that clouded her neutrality from that point onward.
|
| Eltheron |
Posted - 21 Feb 2014 : 18:30:06
quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
Deus-ex-machina does not automatically equal bad writing either. One could argue whether the Red Wedding was deus-ex-machina (it did shock most people, but looking back, you can see it was constructed carefully through one or two books of events that led to it). But the point is maybe it was deus-ex-machina, and that doesn't make it bad. My example, though, is most definitely deus-ex-machina, and it'd also be extremely bad writing.
From the Merriam-Webster website (edited for clarity, phonetic characters don't show here):
de·us ex ma·chi·na noun;
: a character or thing that suddenly enters the story in a novel, play, movie, etc., and solves a problem that had previously seemed impossible to solve.
I think it's a little bit funny that you want to keep arguing about a definition, but okay. I can quote better dictionaries, which get at the fuller meaning.
A key component of any deus ex machina is its artificial nature. This means no foreshadowing, just an out-of-the-blue and surprising ending that feels fake.
The Concise Encyclopedia includes this "artificial" quality in their provided definition, as does the World English Dictionary and even the Dictionary.com site.
Why is this so important? Well, precisely to distinguish it from other types of shocking "saves" like a Tolkien-esque "eucatastrophe" (which isn't a deus ex machina exactly, but shares many of the same qualities). Tolkien's eagles saving Frodo and Sam are an example of a eucatastrophe rather than a true deus ex machina.
The Red Wedding is clearly not a deus ex machina. For one thing, it doesn't solve any unsolvable problem in the writing. It's shocking, yes, and certainly sudden as a reversal, but it actually had plenty of foreshadowing when it comes down to it. Neither is your example of someone slipping in a fight and dying because they hit their head on a rock. I've explained why that isn't a deus ex machina previously, and how it doesn't meet the artificial quality. Both it and the Red Wedding are entirely plausible and organic, even if they are shocking and sudden.
Finally, deus ex machina has been considered bad writing since the year 19 BC (in Horace's Ars Poetica). It's just a lazy, horrible writing device.
PS: I'm not trying to "win" the argument solely for the sake of winning. I'm simply trying to be precise. Some modern dictionaries "shorthand" or simplify definitions for convenience. But to really engage in a good philosophical discussion (in this case, about plot device usage in writing for emotional impact), terms need to be understood at their fullest meaning. The artificial or "fake-seeming" quality is an essential piece of the definition here, because it illustrates how very similar terms (i.e. eucatastrophe, literary gimmick, contrivance) are actually quite different in meaning yet are often offered as synonyms.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Feb 2014 : 18:15:16
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Fine, I'll take a stab at it. People didn't like AO to begin with, so what if AO died? What happens if an overdeity dies or is killed?
If an overdeity is the enforcer or caretaker of some kind of "Pact Primeval" (in this case, the Tablets of Fate), then perhaps what Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul did in stealing it triggered a slow death for AO. Cosmic rules begin to break down, dead gods find themselves suddenly alive again yet uncertain whether or not they'll stay alive without some entity above them.
Currently living gods become terrified as the barriers between worlds begin to weaken. In the case of Abeir, AO didn't intentionally cause it to merge with and swap different parts of Faerun. It was just that AO was dying and his ability to keep realities separate was weakening. And we find out it's not a "twin" planet anyway, it's a divergent reality Realms that AO created to separate the gods from the primordials. During AO's slow death, other alternate realities attempt to merge or swap with parts of Faerun again.
Amaunator reappeared as Lathander became incredibly weakened, and he took Lathander's place for a time. What the gods are doing now is trying to save their reality. And in order to do so, it means one of them must become the new Overdeity and pass into a higher level of reality. To stabilize time and separate the various quantum realities, Amaunator steps up. Lathander becomes stronger as his people rightfully turn back to him for worship. Amaunator is the one deity who can promise a fair "new contract" for all the gods, good and evil.
Mystryl (the original) resumes guardianship of the Weave and repairs it, which bolsters the "walls" between these other realities and other worlds and planes. It's Mystryl because her memories are drawn from the fragments of the former Weave and include memories of all her past avatars. Also, we learn that Cyric and Shar never murdered Mystra. Rather, her existence as a god was intimately tied into the nature of reality and she "went dark" when AO died. The spellplague and the cosmic changes were the result of AO's death, not hers. For the past 100+ years, the gods have been terrified and have been doing their best to hold reality together.
Halruaa returns, as do Maztica and other places, as Amaunator sorts out the divergent realities. Plaguelands fizzle out or are repaired with the restoration of the Weave and the re-separation of the various worlds/realities. Planes that were merged are un-merged.
And meanwhile, intermediate and lesser gods vie for position, power, and worshipers on Faerun.
Small colonies or individual random dragonborn, planetouched, genasi, or other entities might remain behind on Faerun so people still have the option of playing them. But from their perspective, all they really know is that they were from another world somewhere in the universe and Faerun has always had a lot of portals.
Now there's still quite a lot of deus ex machina involved in that. How do we make it such that Amaunator and the other gods require the literal help and assistance of mortals to save Faerun and Toril, so it's not all dependent on the gods' magic?
How about: all the Chosen of all the gods must relinquish their power to create the new Overdeity. In the case of good deities and mortals, this can be done freely. In the case of evil Chosen they have to be put down permanently. Now some of the evil gods, like Shar and Cyric, see this as a potential opportunity to become the new Overgod instead of Amaunator so they lie, attempt to cheat, etc. during the Sundering period. Other evil gods might cooperate with Amaunator's grand plan but start up other more minor plots to ensure their own survival or power.
At the end of it all, mortals triumph and Amaunator is raised as the new Overgod. Each of the Sundering books could've been about a critical fight between two diametrically opposed Chosen. Once Amaunator is risen, all memories of an overgod start to fade and even Oghma's attempts to document what happen begin to fade. People remember the wars between some fantastically powerful archmages, archdruids, and so on, and that the world was in significant peril (so say all the deities to their followers).
And we never see another Chosen again.
And yeah, that's still all quite cheesy, but I think it's a lot better than just some kind of handwaving with no explanations ever made.
Just another factor you could add in here. In another thread I was noting that Mystryl and Ao were both referred to as "the hidden one". If Ao somehow seized the raw energies of Selune and Shar that were merged and maybe formed Mystryl with a portion of his own power... then when Mystra was killed, that might have been also like someone stabbing Ao. Some will say "Mystra and Mystryl have died before", but in truth Mystryl simply lost control for a few seconds and then absorbed a human girl.... and Mystra 1.0 was not a deity at the time of her death... so Mystra 2.0's "death" may have been the first true and sudden death of the goddess of magic since the twinning of the worlds. |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 21 Feb 2014 : 13:19:43
Deus-ex-machina does not automatically equal bad writing either. One could argue whether the Red Wedding was deus-ex-machina (it did shock most people, but looking back, you can see it was constructed carefully through one or two books of events that led to it). But the point is maybe it was deus-ex-machina, and that doesn't make it bad. My example, though, is most definitely deus-ex-machina, and it'd also be extremely bad writing.
From the Merriam-Webster website (edited for clarity, phonetic characters don't show here):
de·us ex ma·chi·na noun;
: a character or thing that suddenly enters the story in a novel, play, movie, etc., and solves a problem that had previously seemed impossible to solve. |
| Eltheron |
Posted - 21 Feb 2014 : 05:49:02
quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
When choices are being made by mortals, and the actions they take decide the outcome of the story, by definition that isn't deus ex machina. When gods are doing the heavy lifting in plot resolution, by showing up or granting god-powers or god-weapons, that is deus ex machina.
That's the difference.
I won't discuss any other points since I think we've exhausted it all here and should probably agree to disagree. I will just point out that deus-ex-machina does not require a literal deity or any kind of tremendous power at all. Any sufficiently improbable event used as a plot-solving device will fit the concept. For example, if your plot consists of two characters who are involved in a complicated feud, and then the whole thing is resolved because one of them happens to slip on a muddy puddle, hit his head on a rock and die, that's deus-ex-machina.
Although it's true a deus ex machina no longer requires an actual deity, your example here just isn't a deus ex machina. That's just an example of weak plotting or bad storytelling.
A genuine deus ex machina requires some agent or event that is not only sudden and totally unexpected, but is also artificial (which is NOT the same as simply being implausible or unlikely), that then provides a tidy resolution to an impossible problem that the author self-created. In your example, falling and hitting one's head on a rock is sudden and unexpected, but it also could happen (that is, it's plausible even if it's unsatisfying). But if a rock just randomly fell on him from the sky, that's implausible, artificial and breaks the suspension of disbelief in a cheesy way.
(Plus, sometimes using a non- deus ex machina type of unexpected but plausible solution to a complex situation can be masterfully applied by some writers. George R.R. Martin, for example, can build up an incredibly complicated plot with enemies being equally matched, only to have something totally out of the blue kill one of the protagonists. And it works because it's completely plausible and not a deus ex machina, but still utterly shocks and awes the audience. Example: Red Wedding.)
In any case, we're talking about the Realms where gods have been showing up and doing stuff on-page for many years. My issue isn't just with cheesy stuff like "Lathander suddenly appears and hands him a god-weapon" (without which he'd certainly die, ergo: deus ex machina solution) but also because that level of cheese totally steals the limelight from mortal heroes.
In my suggestion, the mortal heroes retain the limelight. It's their choices and actions that save the day, not the choices and actions of the gods. Sure, they give up power to the gods who then go and do the mopping up, but the resolution is all on the heroes' choices and whether or not they succeed on their own powers and merits without direct divine intervention. That's the difference.
But anyway, I agree that there's not much more to add to this discussion really.
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| Eltheron |
Posted - 21 Feb 2014 : 05:32:35
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
@Eltheron: With your permission, I will quote your idea in new thread (giving you full credit, of course) and see if any other scribes will come up with some good spin-off ideas of it.
Sure, that's fine. I'm sure other scribes will come up with some interesting twists and improvements.
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| Vyrdallen |
Posted - 21 Feb 2014 : 05:13:39
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
You'll have to back this statement up with specific evidence. I've never drawn the conclusion that a given scribe resented the powerful NPC/gods in the novels because they overshadowed their specific PCs.
I'm not basing the view on Candlekeep in specific, but I've seen the argument that there's nothing a player character can do in the Realms because of the high level npcs/gods, which as you, Ed Greenwood, and other scribes have said is patent nonsense. It's more general feeling on the internet as a whole that I've seen in the past. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 21 Feb 2014 : 03:28:22
@Eltheron: With your permission, I will quote your idea in new thread (giving you full credit, of course) and see if any other scribes will come up with some good spin-off ideas of it. |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 21 Feb 2014 : 03:26:13
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
When choices are being made by mortals, and the actions they take decide the outcome of the story, by definition that isn't deus ex machina. When gods are doing the heavy lifting in plot resolution, by showing up or granting god-powers or god-weapons, that is deus ex machina.
That's the difference.
I won't discuss any other points since I think we've exhausted it all here and should probably agree to disagree. I will just point out that deus-ex-machina does not require a literal deity or any kind of tremendous power at all. Any sufficiently improbable event used as a plot-solving device will fit the concept. For example, if your plot consists of two characters who are involved in a complicated feud, and then the whole thing is resolved because one of them happens to slip on a muddy puddle, hit his head on a rock and die, that's deus-ex-machina. |
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