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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Feb 2014 : 23:48:04
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ksu_bond, no one here has been attacking the opinions of people who don't like where WotC is taking the Realms. I, at least, am only expressing my opinion of why I will reserve 99% of judgment for when/if the 5e Realms first sourcebooks are released. Everything that came so far in the Sundering amounts to a teeny tiny bit of what the Realms is/will be about, that's why I said I honestly don't understand why someone would forego the Realms because a novel like The Reaver sucked in their opinion. But that's their right, I'm not here to judge anyone - but when someone posts here they're expecting other people's opinions, and sometimes they're different from their own.
I hope I haven't offended anyone, and if I have, I am very sorry. I will edit out any such comments should anyone ask, as I can assure being offensive was not what I intended to do. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2014 : 00:21:06
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It's all good. I liked The Reaver myself. But what keeps me turning a page isn't going to hold true for someone else, just the way things work. Everyone has a different opinion and that doesn't make anyone's voice the correct or wrong one. It is, what it is.
I seriously hope they can hit a home-run on the 5E Realms campaign guide too. And I REALLY want a new Volo's Guide! |
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ksu_bond
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
214 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2014 : 01:04:24
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Mapoiq, no worries, and my apologies for my reply following yours as it by no means was in response to your post or any one particular post, more to the situation that is re-occuring now: where there are those that are all excited and anxious for the lastest and greatest Realms (and can't understand why everyone isn't as excited as they are), others are all doom-and-gloom (and can't understand why everyone else doesn't see the coming apocolypse), with everyone else scattered somewhere in between.
And I realize that "attacking" was the wrong word to use, but at the time I couldn't really think of a word that more accurately fit what I was meaning...call it a case of the Monday's  |
Edited by - ksu_bond on 17 Feb 2014 01:06:20 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2014 : 01:09:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
It does sound very awful from your description. I guess I just don't get why people mind awful novels (snip)
Because novels should be good?
Certainly this involves some subjectivity and personal taste, but a truly good novel doesn't just provide snapshots of people and places. The best novels for the Realms have deeply enhanced the richness and atmosphere of the world.
Salvatore created the flavor-picture of Icewind Dale, with people clinging to life in the frozen north, with dwarves and barbarian tribes interacting, and little halflings carving scrimshaw.
Cunningham gave us the deeply enriched flavors of Rashemen, Evermeet, Halruaa, and a slightly different view of Menzoberranzan.
Kemp pulled us into the underside of Sembia, from within a wealthy family's perspective, then moved into exploring the motivations of an evil-leaning god and his worshipers.
Many other authors for the Realms have given us little "slices of life" and deeply enriched pictures of the world we've come to enjoy.
Why care about the novels? Not just because they're canon, but because they allow us to see the Realms in creative ways and directions that our own imaginations might not have gone. That's why. That's why they need to be more than filler, or a stepping stone to the next splat-product.
I'm not saying every Realms novel must be a masterwork like Tolkien's Lord of the Rings. I am saying that novels do way more for readers/gamers than present snapshots of new lore or magical gimmicks like spellscars.
Additionally, how else are we to judge the upcoming post-Sundering Realms if it isn't these novels? If it turns out that this creative team is simply going to handwave away the Spellplague era and go "AO changed stuff" without expanding on anything, then that strikes me as a massive creative failure.
Why? Because I, who have never written a novel or published anything, could just as easily handwave away the whole thing with an AO deus ex machina. Any uncreative DM who has ever just picked up a module and ran it could handwave everything away.
Even though 3E had some problems, I deeply hated the 4E changes and couldn't stomach playing in the Realms because of what they'd done. But even still, handwaving 4E away is the laziest possible approach they could have taken in order to transition. I'm not even demanding a super-creative, clever transitional story here, I just want something that makes sense and isn't totally shrouded in mystery.
If there's one single lesson that they needed to learn with 4E, it was that massive change in a total absence of explanation was the core of their failure. Massive changes can be tolerated if they're explained well and fit organically with the in-world rules. Otherwise it's like a crummy DM who suddenly says, "rocks fall, everyone dies" and just confuses and angers his players.
Novels are the single best vehicle for transmitting the reasons, the feel, and the tone of a game setting. If massive changes are presented in a sensible, organic way that fits the in-world rules, even the most change-resistant people will say, "okay, not exactly what I would've done but at least it explains things."
And of all gaming fanbases, Realms fans crave lore, secrets, and underlying meaning. Even when it's mediocre. To deny readers the metastory of the Sundering, to handwave it with no explanation other than "AO is changing stuff" is an extremely poor strategy for regaining lore-enthusiasts who were driven away by the same exact tactic before 4E was dropped on us.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 14:48:00
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quote:
I just hope that once the Sundering story is told, the Chosen will begin to disappear or at least drop to a handful. Rare enough that you can't literally be bumping into each other. Being a Chosen of a god is one thing, but personally I relate more to a hero being Ribald Barterman of the Adventurer's Mart. Just some shop clerk who turns into a hero.
Considering how Ao gave the gods a slap-down around the Time of Troubles for all their striving, it does strike me as strange as how they are all going nuts trying to position themselves for whatever is after the Sundering.
I don't get the sense that "Chosen" are running around/bumping into each other at all. The novels had several of them because they were rounded up in a few places. That still leaves millions of ordinary Faerunians ACTUALLY running around/bumping into each other. I think your view is skewed because of the focus on them in The Adversary. Even The Reaver only has two of them (I'm very slowly reading the novel so I only know of the two atm).
Your second point seems strange to me as well. We've been told by the author panel/designers that the gods don't know exactly WHAT Ao has in store in the end...so why wouldn't they scramble for position in the interim? I'll say they should be more subtle (which Umberlee is most certainly NOT in The Reaver) but I'm good with it so far.
One thing I don't want is for nothing concerning the gods to be written about. While I don't want the focus to remain on all of the gods and their 'Mary Sue's' as it has been in the past...there are still engaging stories that can be told using them. Just don't over do it is all I'm saying. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 14:57:09
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Just read Eltheron's post above...I didn't realize there were four Chosen arrayed against Stedd (no spoiler please).
As to the redemption of our pirate and red wizard...might one of Stedd's powers be similar to Shar's girl from the Adversary? Perhaps he exudes some power that causes folks to subtly reconsider their lives (i.e. want to renew themselves)?
I will agree much of the plot is rather bland...but RLB was given one book to progress the Sundering...it's not as if he has a lot of wiggle room to tell the story properly. Methinks we will be getting more novels later that help expand on many of these concepts.
No reveals about The Sundering...exactly what the author panel/designers said would happen. So no criticism from me there (though I would like some revelations). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 15:37:04
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Good point.
Now, this is just a guess, but as far as I know, creating a Chosen takes a lot of divine power. This weakness would lead them to being rather rare and all of a sudden we have an influx of Chosen. I think a large amount of them were just normal folks too. It's almost as if the gods are hedging in case all their striving goes bad they would basically have a "backup" copy running around. That seems really reckless, so there has to be a GOOD reason they are willing to take such risks. I would also assume that once they no longer need their Chosen they will take back their divine power. It's one thing to have an Elminster carry divine power around, but if Ortho the farmer has some and dies, I believe it is lost.
I also seem to remember Ao saying something that the god's strivings during the Time of Troubles have amounted to nothing. He must be on vacation or something, because now 100+ years later they seem to think they can get away with the same type of behavior, maybe even magnified in scope. I find that very interesting. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 16:05:39
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Just read Eltheron's post above...I didn't realize there were four Chosen arrayed against Stedd (no spoiler please).
My post could've been worded better. Trying to avoid spoilers yet correct this, there are five total Chosen in this novel. Four of these Chosen, one of whom is Stedd, stand against the big bad evil guy, who is himself a Chosen.
quote:
I will agree much of the plot is rather bland...but RLB was given one book to progress the Sundering...it's not as if he has a lot of wiggle room to tell the story properly. Methinks we will be getting more novels later that help expand on many of these concepts.
When you finish the novel, I'd be curious if you still feel the same way. Once Stedd reaches his destination, was that place (and its people) really interesting or did it seem rather contrived? Was it really necessary to have all these Chosen involved? Was the final battle tense or exciting? Did you think it was good, or was it still bland?
quote:
No reveals about The Sundering...exactly what the author panel/designers said would happen. So no criticism from me there (though I would like some revelations).
The funny thing about all of this is that everyone wants revelations and reveals about the Sundering. You, me, everyone. And yet somehow, they've managed to convince people that it's somehow okay to reveal only tidbits of the extremely compelling and interesting metastory while distracting us with other stories.
One of the really old, classic tricks of the story-telling trade is "when creativity is lacking, manipulate the audience" and hope you get away with it. If you feel unsatisfied with the story (or stories) but have the "it was expected" rationalization logically staring you in the face, then how dare you for feeling disappointed?
The bigger problem here is that they've deeply involved Ed this time. If they don't deliver something amazing by the end, then it really will be game over. If people lose faith in Ed, they're done. At this point, though, with that logical rationalization staring us down and every indication that they'll just handwave everything away as an "AO said so" historical footnote, I have no real reason to expect anything amazing.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 19:30:07
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quote:
Now, this is just a guess, but as far as I know, creating a Chosen takes a lot of divine power. This weakness would lead them to being rather rare and all of a sudden we have an influx of Chosen. I think a large amount of them were just normal folks too. It's almost as if the gods are hedging in case all their striving goes bad they would basically have a "backup" copy running around. That seems really reckless, so there has to be a GOOD reason they are willing to take such risks. I would also assume that once they no longer need their Chosen they will take back their divine power. It's one thing to have an Elminster carry divine power around, but if Ortho the farmer has some and dies, I believe it is lost.
I also seem to remember Ao saying something that the god's strivings during the Time of Troubles have amounted to nothing. He must be on vacation or something, because now 100+ years later they seem to think they can get away with the same type of behavior, maybe even magnified in scope. I find that very interesting.
I'm not sure that these Chosen can all be considered on the same 'level' as Mystra's (classic) Chosen. It may be that less energy was required for the creation of some of them (although, so far, Umberlee's seems rank up there with the greatest of them). Anyway, in The Adversary, not all of the Chosen seemed that powerful. Perhaps this book is different though. I'm going put my other projects on the back burner and push through the next two days and get the book finished. Maybe then I can give a more informed opinion.
quote:
The funny thing about all of this is that everyone wants revelations and reveals about the Sundering. You, me, everyone. And yet somehow, they've managed to convince people that it's somehow okay to reveal only tidbits of the extremely compelling and interesting metastory while distracting us with other stories.
One of the really old, classic tricks of the story-telling trade is "when creativity is lacking, manipulate the audience" and hope you get away with it. If you feel unsatisfied with the story (or stories) but have the "it was expected" rationalization logically staring you in the face, then how dare you for feeling disappointed?
The bigger problem here is that they've deeply involved Ed this time. If they don't deliver something amazing by the end, then it really will be game over. If people lose faith in Ed, they're done. At this point, though, with that logical rationalization staring us down and every indication that they'll just handwave everything away as an "AO said so" historical footnote, I have no real reason to expect anything amazing.
You raise VERY good points here. I can only hope the final installment will answer many of our questions and that we aren't being (overly) manipulated and cheated in the end.
As to Ed's involvement. I honestly hope most of the Sundering comes from his mind and that he will 'save the day' in the end. I'm sure we will all continue to love him, his world, and his creativity even if the next iteration of the game and setting bomb. I would still try to support his other work, for instance. But, in all honesty, I think this is WotC's last chance with me. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 22:44:07
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I'm not sure that these Chosen can all be considered on the same 'level' as Mystra's (classic) Chosen. It may be that less energy was required for the creation of some of them (although, so far, Umberlee's seems rank up there with the greatest of them). Anyway, in The Adversary, not all of the Chosen seemed that powerful. Perhaps this book is different though. I'm going put my other projects on the back burner and push through the next two days and get the book finished. Maybe then I can give a more informed opinion.
I know you were responding specifically to Eilsarus's post with this, but I agree with you. In Evans book, in the prison camp, many or most of the prisoners were normal people. Some had the old classic "wild talent" that Ed would give some of his NPCs (and you could also as a DM). A good number were also "pre-Chosen" but hadn't manifested any abilities. And a good number were straight-up Chosen with a capital C like Mystra's Chosen. It would've been interesting to know how the Netherese detected all of these people, yet couldn't sort them out better without Farideh's unique new talent (and by the way, she's most likely a Chosen of some deity, maybe Asmodeus).
Remember also, there wasn't just one large prison camp. There were many camps where they were trying to sort out which were Chosen and use them for their own purposes.
Anyway, this amounts to lots and lots of Chosen - and I'm sick to death of Chosen. Whenever you have any kind of Chosen wandering around, the truth is that the reader has no idea when or if the author is going to pull out a giant deus ex machina. Byers did it here several times with Stedd. Also, arguably, Kemp did it at the end of his book, but he gets a pass because it was a really good story regardless of that). And Salvatore, yeah, Mielikki pulls a giant one at the beginning and then Catti-brie just happens to have the Chosen powers of two deities plus some exceptionally helpful spellscars. That was a lot of cheese, but at least he de-powered her dramatically in the book after the Weave returned.
Most thankfully, Evans didn't pull a deus ex machina. It wasn't necessary, because there were other supporting players who could do interesting and amazing things, sometimes even surprising things.
And just my opinion here, Evans novel was probably the best of the four. Farideh is torn up about relying on her devil pact, and she's been slammed many times for using those powers even when it's to save those she loves. She's also worried about her soul being taken. It's a great character dilemma, because she writes very character-driven novels. It's easy to identify with and care about what happens to those characters.
What do we look forward to in the next story? More Chosen. Bleah. We know Malik (Chosen of Cyric) is going to be a player, and this new warrior-guy is going to be a Chosen of Helm or something. The lady he's traveling with believes she's a Chosen. And I have no doubt based on the blurb that they're probably talking about Kiaransalee and she'll probably have a Chosen.
The last book will certainly have Elminster and probably the remaining few of the seven sisters. Chosen and more Chosen.
When WotC says "yes" to a concept, they take that concept and inflate it to massive proportions and squeeze it into everything. Remember how everything was ALL about Mystra and her Chosen way back when? Then people said that was bad, so they made everything ALL about Shar and the shadowvar. People liked Ed's "wild talents" and for a while in 2E everyone ever you meet had a wild talent. Dragonmarks became popular in another setting, so BAM spellscars - and every single novel protagonist had to have one, plus be a deva or angel or half celestial or dragonborn flavor-of-the-edition race.
It's like they don't understand small, or how unique things are fun precisely because they're unique. Give everyone under the sun a spellscar or make them a puppet of Shar and it's just plain bad.
quote:
You raise VERY good points here. I can only hope the final installment will answer many of our questions and that we aren't being (overly) manipulated and cheated in the end.
As to Ed's involvement. I honestly hope most of the Sundering comes from his mind and that he will 'save the day' in the end. I'm sure we will all continue to love him, his world, and his creativity even if the next iteration of the game and setting bomb. I would still try to support his other work, for instance. But, in all honesty, I think this is WotC's last chance with me.
Your words to the gods' ears, seriously. I would love nothing more than to see the final book give us some solid reveals about what has been going on, what it means, and what the future will be like. I hope that the 5E setting book is amazing, because I love Ed's work. I just don't love much of what WotC has done in the past decade or more.
Most of all, I don't like that feeling of being manipulated once again, for the profit of a company that has turned out some spectacularly mediocre stuff over those years. I hope I'm proven wrong. I'll be happy to buy really good amazing work, but I have this niggling, sinking feeling it's just going to be a handwave.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 18 Feb 2014 23:03:51 |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2014 : 03:05:45
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I loved the Reaver. Surprised to see such dislike on here, but to each their own. I feel like it will tie in to the brotherhood of the gryphon. So far the only better book for me in the Sundering was Godborn. Currently reading the Sentinel and enjoying.
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2014 : 20:38:17
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
You raise VERY good points here. I can only hope the final installment will answer many of our questions and that we aren't being (overly) manipulated and cheated in the end. (...)
This is the point where I think some people are being a bit unfair with the designers (and pretty much the only one). You speak of manipulation as if they were deviously withholding the story in order to make more money, contrary to what we were told. But that doesn't sustain itself, because what we were told is that the Sundering story would be withheld from us (I'm hoping it will be revealed in the first FR 5e sourcebook though - they didn't get that far in the Seminars). This is in the core of the new design philosophy they presented. You can accuse them of having an extremely bad idea, but not of dishonesty.
As for Chosen.. it's a concept and a name. It doesn't seem to me like these Chosen are doing any damage to the setting. It's just a story, a plot element. Does the whole thing boil down to the fact that the word "Chosen" and its concept has become loaded with hate? That people assume that if a Chosen is there, stupid plots will follow? If there had never been Chosen in the Realms before, would this plot device feel so wrong?
Trust me, I'm not on the happy bandwagon here. I take to heart what Faraer said, which is in Eltheron's sig. I won't like the 5e Realms, there is no way I could. I'm a tremendous sticker for detail, so for me, a whole lot of things can never be repaired. But I might like bits of it, and I can appreciate the work of some designers, and their honesty. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 19 Feb 2014 20:52:30 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2014 : 14:22:04
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@Maploq: I think you need to go back and read my posts again...I never said they were manipulating us. I was responding to someone else who said that.
Now to respond to Eltheron as requested. I just finished the book and I can say this much. Of the four novels released so far...this one is the least of them IMO. The characters aren't as interesting as those in Godborn and Adversary (Companions is a different animal to me and doesn't count where characters are concerned). The characters are all rather two-dimensional to me, despite efforts at making them seem more 'real' in the story. Adversary, on the other hand, had much better characters that I could actually relate with.
One of the main attempts to make the characters 'real' was brought up earlier...the redemption of Umara and Anton. My main problem with this wasn't that they were redeemed despite a history of evil behavior (one of my favorite things in literature are characters who change). And Kemp built in a reason for their redemption by showing that they were not so bad at one time...circumstances and poor choices led them down their darker paths. My main issue with it is that it happened SO FAST. So, I'm going to choose, for now, to believe that it's some quality of Stedd's power that actually redeemed them.
Is the story contrived? Well yes, but I would say not so much more or less than many of the FR novels. I take this with a grain of salt, as they say, because it's a setting novel. A shared world. It's not like reading George R.R. Martin's work where everything is his and his alone to make. Also, as I stated earlier, Kemp was given one book to write this story and he did the best he could (I do really believe that...and I can't hold that against the author). I think it would have been a much better story as a trilogy.
This leaves the use of the Chosen. I'm okay with their existence and use given that I believe it's leading to something BIG in the end. I'm reserving further comment until The Herald though because I don't want to spark a (possibly well deserved) angry rant if my suspicion is true.
Now, the deus ex machina was 'over the top' and over used. But, again, I have to say Kemp was left with one book to tell this story...and the use of the Chosen was likely a required element for the story arc he was given. I think the fault lies with WotC here and all I can say is I hope it's worth it by book 6. The book did two major things in the end though, SPOILERS..............................It got rid of the plaguelands and it reset the borders of the Sea of Fallen Stars, which is delivering on a promise made at the summit/author panel.
All-in-all not the best book in the world...but it does deliver on some promises and that has to count for something.
Just a quick edit, when I say he was given one book to do it in...I also mean that he had very limited time to come up with the story. Unlike Game of Thrones which has a single book (individually the size of a FR trilogy) taking five years to write. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
Edited by - The Arcanamach on 20 Feb 2014 14:27:03 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2014 : 14:33:27
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| Just typing as thoughts come to mind. Ironically, the most interesting ('real') character in the story to me was Umberlee's Chosen. The few glimpses you get of his mind made him more 'human' than the others, despite the fact that he was FARRRRR from human. Hell, even Kymas was more interesting than the main characters. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
Edited by - The Arcanamach on 20 Feb 2014 14:35:02 |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2014 : 17:40:05
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
@Maploq: I think you need to go back and read my posts again...I never said they were manipulating us. I was responding to someone else who said that.
I'm sorry - it's just that your line summarised the idea very well, so I quoted it. I'm not jabbing at Eltheron espcifically either, it's something I've seen several times which I think is unfair (but opinions may differ, I suppose).
On a side note, the SPOILER made --- me smile. They're actually serious about it. This strengthens my confidence in their honesty. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 20 Feb 2014 17:44:38 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2014 : 18:13:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
This is the point where I think some people are being a bit unfair with the designers (and pretty much the only one). You speak of manipulation as if they were deviously withholding the story in order to make more money, contrary to what we were told.
Deviously withholding the story? That's not what I said. I've agreed with you about "being told" they were going to focus on individual stories and not focus directly on the actual Sundering itself. That's been pretty clear, so it's not deception in that way.
What I did say, though, is that this is all starting to feel excessively manipulative. Because they pulled Ed into it this time, they've convinced many people that not seeing the overarching metaplot is somehow okay.
Most people want the details, though, even though we've "been told" in a rather soothing, caring way (aka "trust us"). We all want them, but we've been talking into accepting that we won't get and big reveals (at least not with this series). To me, that feels pretty strongly like classic audience manipulation. Because it is. And audience manipulation is fine in the end if we actually get an amazing final product that is worth it.
The truth is, we won't know if we've been played until the 5E campaign guide comes out, precisely because we've all been placed in "wait and see, try and enjoy these filler stories in the meantime" mode.
My underlying feeling is that they're not playing it this way because of the obvious money concerns, but rather because a truly creative set of solutions for the repair was hard - or at least harder than a gigantic deus ex machina. Right now, to me, it seems like they chose the easiest and cheesiest "out" possible with an AO handwave. And that doesn't sit well.
If we get this for 5E: "Ta Da! All fixed now, water levels back to normal, gods back, plaguelands mopped away, spellscars gone, and you have AO and a lot of Chosen still hanging around to thank for it. And no, we're never explaining any of it, at all, ever." Is that the creative, amazing resolution most of us fans will be happy with? We'll certainly be stuck with it as canon if that's the case, but is this what the creative team heard from us when fans begged for a creative, meaningful and organic solution to all the damage done in late 3E and 4E?
Or is it just the easiest and laziest "resolution" possible?
To be honest, if that's what they serve up for 5E, there is ZERO reason for me to "accept" all this massively contrived "4E history" with the weird god drama, random temporary god deaths, planar changes, "twinned planet" and swappable landmasses nonsense. Honestly, rebooting to any older edition would've been better IMO. If your only fix for something is a massive deus ex machina, it's honestly better to just cut the wheat from the chaff and stick with your wheat.
I mean really, if my players see that the recent defining metastory for the Realms is an Overgod Handwave, why should they think that I won't use the same device whenever it suits me as a DM? Why should readers think that novels aren't going to star various Chosen who can similarly use one of their granted god-powers to magically get out of any trouble?
As for the Chosen, I think I've adequately explained why overuse of them is bad. But I'll re-summarize: each single Chosen has the potential for being a deus ex machina, and in fact that's usually what they become in the story. If WotC's creativity has been reduced to a thousand uses of deus ex machina instead of something actually creative, that's a serious failure of the creative team and suggests that the 5E campaign guide won't be terribly creative either.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 20 Feb 2014 18:56:28 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2014 : 20:36:43
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I'll take the divine intervention solution. Some of the damage done to the Realms for 4E is just flat out beyond an organic fix. The Vilhon Reach, the Underchasm, the Shaar Desolation, the Plaguewrought Lands (20,000 square miles of poisoned land?), Halruaa, well the South is just a mess...there's no fixing any of that organically. IF they're going to use the Sundering and the gods in a bit of divine intervention to fix places, so be it.
If you don't like the 4E history, ignore it or the parts that you don't like. I know I have. Heck, our 4E era group, playing 2E rules, uses the 3E map!
But anyways, I don't think there is an easy answer to this type of fix. I seriously hope 5E turns out to be like the good old days where lore trumps mechanics. I don't however, think it's fair to call the creative team and authors lazy or that they are failing at this when we haven't seen the entire Sundering series or even know when a 5E Campaign Guide will be out. |
Edited by - Eilserus on 20 Feb 2014 20:37:43 |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2014 : 20:49:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
The truth is, we won't know if we've been played until the 5E campaign guide comes out, precisely because we've all been placed in "wait and see, try and enjoy these filler stories in the meantime" mode.
My underlying feeling is that they're not playing it this way because of the obvious money concerns, but rather because a truly creative set of solutions for the repair was hard - or at least harder than a gigantic deus ex machina. Right now, to me, it seems like they chose the easiest and cheesiest "out" possible with an AO handwave. And that doesn't sit well.
If we get this for 5E: "Ta Da! All fixed now, water levels back to normal, gods back, plaguelands mopped away, spellscars gone, and you have AO and a lot of Chosen still hanging around to thank for it. And no, we're never explaining any of it, at all, ever." Is that the creative, amazing resolution most of us fans will be happy with? We'll certainly be stuck with it as canon if that's the case, but is this what the creative team heard from us when fans begged for a creative, meaningful and organic solution to all the damage done in late 3E and 4E?
Or is it just the easiest and laziest "resolution" possible?
The scenario you describe would be my dream - the absolute best situation I could ever hope WotC to achieve with 5e. If they manage to do that, I'll probably be buying some of their stuff again very soon. As I said the Realms will never be fixed for me. It couldn't. Hoping for a creative set of solutions that make the whole thing make sense is impossible, because with 4e, they've gone out of their way to make the damage utterly irreparable by any sane means. Which means they must pull a lot of rabbits out of hats.
I don't want them to explain the 4e era and make it connect with the rest of the lore. I want the 4e era to be forgotten and swept beneath the rug as much as possible, which is the same thing they've done with, say, Swords of the Iron Legion. Because it was so excruciatingly bad and made no sense whatsoever. At some point the lore is so rotten that trying to explain it, however good your intentions, will only damage your work in the end. No one ever said Swords of the Iron Legion is not canon. It is still canon, and will probably be for ever. But it's there, it's past, we move on now.
That said, I hope the "lots of Chosen still hanging around with no explanation" part will not happen. That's a new plot device which wasn't necessary for the "fix" and which can handle a suitable conclusion. So I hope there will be one there.
But I do get your point on selling the Sundering novels being a form of audience manipulation. But, well, that's marketing for you. They could have put out nothing at all set in the Realms for a year, or they could put out novels and say nothing about it, or come out and say "hey, this stuff is all filler really, if you want to hear anything, anything at all about the Sundering, DON'T BUY OUR BOOKS! Seriously." but any of those options would be completely insane. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 20 Feb 2014 20:55:11 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2014 : 20:50:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
I'll take the divine intervention solution. Some of the damage done to the Realms for 4E is just flat out beyond an organic fix. The Vilhon Reach, the Underchasm, the Shaar Desolation, the Plaguewrought Lands (20,000 square miles of poisoned land?), Halruaa, well the South is just a mess...there's no fixing any of that organically. IF they're going to use the Sundering and the gods in a bit of divine intervention to fix places, so be it.
If you don't like the 4E history, ignore it or the parts that you don't like. I know I have. Heck, our 4E era group, playing 2E rules, uses the 3E map!
But anyways, I don't think there is an easy answer to this type of fix. I seriously hope 5E turns out to be like the good old days where lore trumps mechanics. I don't however, think it's fair to call the creative team and authors lazy or that they are failing at this when we haven't seen the entire Sundering series or even know when a 5E Campaign Guide will be out.
It's perfectly fair for me to say "this is how I feel, it's the impression I get right now as to where things are going." Because that IS the truth.
And remember, I did say "IF" this is what happens, then I'll consider it lazy and a failure of creativity. I also said we won't know for sure until 5E is out. But it's absolutely fair for me to let other people know my take on this.
The other side of the "we won't focus on the Sundering itself" coin was the implication that their solution would lead to a restoration of the Realms, when things were amazing and awesome.
I don't find deus ex machina to be amazing, awesome or creative in any way whatsoever. IF that's what they have planned. And right now? all I'm seeing is a whole lot of deus ex machina.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2014 : 21:08:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
The scenario you describe would be my dream - the absolute best situation I could ever hope WotC to achieve with 5e. If they manage to do that, I'll probably be buying some of their stuff again very soon. As I said the Realms will never be fixed for me.
If that's the route they have planned, I'll never buy anything Realms ever again. It really will ruin and kill the Realms for me as a setting.
I also don't buy into the idea that there was no way at all to ever fix the Realms, to come up with patch-lore that would help the 4E Realms "fit" better with Realms history and tone. This isn't my line of work, but I think even I could come up with something to make the transition less cheesy.
Anyway, it's still all just a bunch of "IF"s at this point. My feelings are what they are, though. I wish I could say I still felt hopeful.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2014 : 21:10:45
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It seems to me you are expecting contradictory things, Eltheron. Any kind of old Realms feel can't be brought about without a lot of deus-ex machina. Just take a quick read through the 4e FRCG, how the hell is 90% of that going to be organically resolved. It was tacked onto Faerūn like, well, a planet smashing into it. Moving the refuse around will just make it smell worse.
The point here is yes, it's your impression, it's valid, and I agree with it. But what you think is lazy, I think is the best possible solution for the Realms I have ever laid my eyes on anywhere. Best possible is still bittersweet, but oh well (and, obviously, I can't say if they'll actually manage to do this either, I'm just talking about impressions, like you).
But now I understand where you are seeing laziness. I just think it's about the same thing as saying physicists are lazy since they haven't completely figured out the physics of black holes yet. It's not just hard, it's bordering on impossible, and in WotC's case, they've got to do it right now. Maybe I'm wrong, but I haven't ever seen a single person coming up with a better solution yet.
Please note I'm not discussing the individual merits and failures of The Reaver at all, but rather of the whole approach. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 20 Feb 2014 21:14:14 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2014 : 21:53:31
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I agree with Maploq, how else were they to restore the water level without a massive deus ex machina? I could see an organic fix for the Plaguelands (a group of wizards and priests casting spells over the course of a decade or something...that would have allowed us to keep it for awhile in case we wanted to adventure there).
But how would you fix the Underchasm organically (assuming it's even going to get fixed)?
Or restore the gods without an Ao handwave? I suppose you could say they were all in a penalty box for a century, but isn't that cheesy too?
How do you get rid of thousands of earthmotes organically? One of the novels mentioned a powerful ritual could be used on them individually...but just how many folks are available to do that? Btw, I rather keep many of the earthmotes myself.
Deux ex machina seems the only logical, if cheesy, way to accomplish everything they said they would do in time for the next iteration of the setting to hit the shelves. It's not perfect, but it's all we (they) really have. My main concern now stems from the possibility that all these Chosen are going to remain in the Realms afterwards (this is what I eluded to before...I'm worried that the gods will become 'mysterious' and not be as active in the Realms personally...but all their Chosen will remain in their stead...and that's not a good thing IMO). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2014 : 22:06:55
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Fine, I'll take a stab at it. People didn't like AO to begin with, so what if AO died? What happens if an overdeity dies or is killed?
If an overdeity is the enforcer or caretaker of some kind of "Pact Primeval" (in this case, the Tablets of Fate), then perhaps what Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul did in stealing it triggered a slow death for AO. Cosmic rules begin to break down, dead gods find themselves suddenly alive again yet uncertain whether or not they'll stay alive without some entity above them.
Currently living gods become terrified as the barriers between worlds begin to weaken. In the case of Abeir, AO didn't intentionally cause it to merge with and swap different parts of Faerun. It was just that AO was dying and his ability to keep realities separate was weakening. And we find out it's not a "twin" planet anyway, it's a divergent reality Realms that AO created to separate the gods from the primordials. During AO's slow death, other alternate realities attempt to merge or swap with parts of Faerun again.
Amaunator reappeared as Lathander became incredibly weakened, and he took Lathander's place for a time. What the gods are doing now is trying to save their reality. And in order to do so, it means one of them must become the new Overdeity and pass into a higher level of reality. To stabilize time and separate the various quantum realities, Amaunator steps up. Lathander becomes stronger as his people rightfully turn back to him for worship. Amaunator is the one deity who can promise a fair "new contract" for all the gods, good and evil.
Mystryl (the original) resumes guardianship of the Weave and repairs it, which bolsters the "walls" between these other realities and other worlds and planes. It's Mystryl because her memories are drawn from the fragments of the former Weave and include memories of all her past avatars. Also, we learn that Cyric and Shar never murdered Mystra. Rather, her existence as a god was intimately tied into the nature of reality and she "went dark" when AO died. The spellplague and the cosmic changes were the result of AO's death, not hers. For the past 100+ years, the gods have been terrified and have been doing their best to hold reality together.
Halruaa returns, as do Maztica and other places, as Amaunator sorts out the divergent realities. Plaguelands fizzle out or are repaired with the restoration of the Weave and the re-separation of the various worlds/realities. Planes that were merged are un-merged.
And meanwhile, intermediate and lesser gods vie for position, power, and worshipers on Faerun.
Small colonies or individual random dragonborn, planetouched, genasi, or other entities might remain behind on Faerun so people still have the option of playing them. But from their perspective, all they really know is that they were from another world somewhere in the universe and Faerun has always had a lot of portals.
Now there's still quite a lot of deus ex machina involved in that. How do we make it such that Amaunator and the other gods require the literal help and assistance of mortals to save Faerun and Toril, so it's not all dependent on the gods' magic?
How about: all the Chosen of all the gods must relinquish their power to create the new Overdeity. In the case of good deities and mortals, this can be done freely. In the case of evil Chosen they have to be put down permanently. Now some of the evil gods, like Shar and Cyric, see this as a potential opportunity to become the new Overgod instead of Amaunator so they lie, attempt to cheat, etc. during the Sundering period. Other evil gods might cooperate with Amaunator's grand plan but start up other more minor plots to ensure their own survival or power.
At the end of it all, mortals triumph and Amaunator is raised as the new Overgod. Each of the Sundering books could've been about a critical fight between two diametrically opposed Chosen. Once Amaunator is risen, all memories of an overgod start to fade and even Oghma's attempts to document what happen begin to fade. People remember the wars between some fantastically powerful archmages, archdruids, and so on, and that the world was in significant peril (so say all the deities to their followers).
And we never see another Chosen again.
And yeah, that's still all quite cheesy, but I think it's a lot better than just some kind of handwaving with no explanations ever made.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2014 : 22:31:21
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I expect pretty much what you described actually, except there'll likely be no Overgod-death involved, and the backstory will be different. They already told us that one, Ao separated the worlds willingly and then let them smash together again as a social experiment of sorts.
Your solution is WotC's solution wrapped in different paper. Instead of "Mystra never died, she's been there all along" it's "Mystra came back because of Blue Fire or something", in the end it's just handwaving. Sure, every one of us can probably come up with their favorite method of waving their hands, but I'm talking about the whole approach here.
Personally, I want it as simple as possible, just because I don't want to read hundreds of pages about how the gods and all the ruined nations came back. I want them to come back as quick as possible so we can go on with the cool stories we were talking about before without caring much about the silly stuff that happened in the middle. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 20 Feb 2014 22:34:53 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2014 : 22:35:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
I expect pretty much what you described actually, except there'll likely be no Overgod-death involved, and the backstory will be different. They already told us that one, Ao separated the worlds willingly and then let them smash together again as a social experiment of sorts.
Your solution is WotC's solution wrapped in different paper. Instead of "Mystra never died, she's been there all along" it's "Mystra came back because of Blue Fire or something", in the end it's just handwaving. Sure, every one of us can probably come up with their favorite method of waving their hands, but I'm talking about the whole approach here.
My "solution" as you put it, isn't just different paper.
It requires choices and actions by mortals, and sacrifices by those mortals. At present, the unfolding story is gods putting weapons into mortals' hands, and generally being confused about what's happening in the greater world.
It may seem the same to you, but it's the exact opposite of what we've seen so far.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 20 Feb 2014 22:37:17 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2014 : 22:40:21
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Holy s**t Eltheron, you win designer of the year. Yes, a great deal of deux ex machina but not nearly as cheesy as some of the other stuff going on at this point.
You may have just helped me bridge the gap between 3e and 5e. It makes 4e more palatable. Your quick and dirty idea (well you likely had that idea brewing in your head for some time now) could actually blend really well with some lore already established. Heck, it even brings in a concept from the old BDnD Immortals set. The idea that a god can be elevated to a higher type of god (highgod, elder god, whatever you want to call it).
I think you should start a thread on this concept. I know there are others who would work this idea with you for homebrew purposes. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2014 : 22:48:34
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I'm not very qualified to comment on what's actually happening since I haven't read the novels, but choices being made by mortals doesn't necessarily make the concept any less "deus-ex-machina". You don't need powerful creatures to do it, just an implausible solution taken out of a hat. It might make for a better story, or not, but I'm not discussing the quality of stories. And they did say stories would be focused on mortals, but they also did say gods would be very important, they just wouldn't be "characters" per-se. Now, I've heard someone talking about Lathander appearing "in person" and that would seem contradictory, so that's something I didn't like hearing about.
I'm not saying there can't be a better deus-ex-machina then the one WotC is/will be doing (I guess I'm largely unconcerned with how good it is, as long as it doesn't break anything, and it's quickly done with and swept under the rug along with the bad stuff it took care of), I'm saying there can't be an organic transition that explains everything, right now. Something like that, if it can be done, would take hundreds of books - it'd be basically building the Realms from scratch again. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 20 Feb 2014 22:58:13 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2014 : 23:04:02
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| A hundred books you say? Hmmm, I think Elminster needs to find Volo and cast a reverse imprisonment spell and tell him to get writing! hehehe |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2014 : 02:26:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
I'm not very qualified to comment on what's actually happening since I haven't read the novels, but choices being made by mortals doesn't necessarily make the concept any less "deus-ex-machina".
When choices are being made by mortals, and the actions they take decide the outcome of the story, by definition that isn't deus ex machina. When gods are doing the heavy lifting in plot resolution, by showing up or granting god-powers or god-weapons, that is deus ex machina.
That's the difference.
Gods are always going to be around, and trying to influence things. But the trick is to put mortals at the forefront, not the gods themselves, and have the mortals' actions and choices result in either success or failure.
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Holy s**t Eltheron, you win designer of the year. Yes, a great deal of deux ex machina but not nearly as cheesy as some of the other stuff going on at this point.
You may have just helped me bridge the gap between 3e and 5e. It makes 4e more palatable. Your quick and dirty idea (well you likely had that idea brewing in your head for some time now) could actually blend really well with some lore already established. Heck, it even brings in a concept from the old BDnD Immortals set. The idea that a god can be elevated to a higher type of god (highgod, elder god, whatever you want to call it).
I think you should start a thread on this concept. I know there are others who would work this idea with you for homebrew purposes.
Thanks. I wouldn't say it's been something I've been working on exactly, but the bit about realities crashing together has seemed more palatable to me for a long time than what they said happened in 4E. I didn't really come up with AO dying instead of Mystra until today, or the part about Amaunator being a separate entity.
I don't really want to create a thread on this, but if you or others want to take the general idea and run with it elsewhere, that's fine. I'm certain it could be made a lot better and expanded upon. But I'm not a designer myself. I just wanted to give an example of something better than just a gigantic deus ex machina by itself where mortals are just waiting for things to sort out or are handed god-weapons.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 21 Feb 2014 02:34:52 |
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Reading The Reaver
