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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Jan 2014 : 17:07:28
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| I for one want to learn more about the White Fate colony in the Greypeaks. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 11:21:08
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I admire your fortitude. The Netheril boxed set is an exercise in frustration when it comes to history and geography.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 16:08:57
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Wait a minute! Are you saying that those in power not only try to constantly keep their 'lessers' under-heel, but also play some sort of vast chess (Sava) game using everyone and everything as their 'pieces', as they manipulate events to one-up each other and knock-out other players?
How.... REALISTIC.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 17:59:09
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Dazzler: You may want to PM Dennis as he seems to be the resident expert on Shade Enclave. That said, I think the novels state that Telamont is the founder of Shade (-1471) AND moved the city to the Plane of Shadow (-339). If memory serves, even his sons were not initially aware that he was the same who one founded and (later) saved the city by moving it.
Btw, your thoughts on the sarrukh are likely 100% accurate, although I think most of those rivalries have been laid to rest now that they are close to extinction. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 18:24:04
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Found some further circumstantial support for my idea that Kozah is not a human god at all but a sarrukh god masquerading as human (or another god that i hadnt considered).
The only mention of Kozah in the entire geography section of the Netheril book is in the city of Monikar within the borders of the forest of Cormanthor (near what may have been Ilodhar).
This is called the Eastern Forest in the Netheril sourcebook and the blurb about it says there are rumoured to be ruins from the creator races within the forest.
The details about Kozah says the servants of the destroyer move from Monikar to Dagger's Point to gain entry to Netheril.
This says to me that the entirety of the Kozahn religion is formed within Monikar and spreads outwards. This city is founded by a bunch of Netherese outcasts and may have founded the city on an old ruin. Then discovering a temple in the ruin they establish a religion based on dark whisperings from whichever god is pretending to be Kozah. He then sends his clergy out to destroy Netheril from within.
I'd be more inclined to say that Kozah was a fey deity transferred to the human pantheon, especially if it mentions creator race origins in the forest of Cormanthor. His powers over storms feels more fey that Sarrukh as well, and his dispassion could be almost fey-like as well. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 19:20:42
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However Kozah's almost single minded purpose to destroy the Netherese is not fey like.
And it doesn't look like he is dispassionate towards his followers. The temple manifestation must have required some godly input.
We don't know who organised the clergy into assassination and subversion squads against the Netherese, but since this may likely have been the inception of the religion those orders must have come from the deity himself.
I agree that Cormanthor is likely to contain a fey creator race presence but as we have mused in other threads the fey are unlikely to have any ruins lying around since they probably never built any in the first place (which also explains why no one ever found any fey ruins either).
The Sarrukh ruins do seem to occupy the central and eastern part of the Netheril Basin which is where the Netherese Empire mostly centres on so Sarrukh Ruins are sure to be found in the forest. I don't think lizards are averse to forested areas, and Arcorar was free of elves until quite late in the time period of elves, after all the Crown Wars.
I think given the history of Anauroch Sarrukh is the most likely for any creator race ruins. They probably just weren't named or given more detail in the Netheril book because nothing was known about them at that point.
As for Shade, if Shadow was indeed a student of Karsus, either he was pretending to be lower level to get close to Karsus (unlikely, I reckon Karsus would have figured him out).
Or the settlement of Shade was founded in -1471 DR. Shadow was probably born there and once he finished his studies under Karsus in -500 DR sometime, he returned to Shade and made it into an enclave.
I'm starting to notice a few factions in the Netherese Empire working against it. The lizardmen and Quagmire/Akintaer under Gr'Zhad, The clergy of Kozah, The outcasts of Netheril, and Hlundadim. All of these four could have had a Sarrukh sponsor (two I'm pretty certain did - Hlundadim and Gr'Zhad).
In the west however in the Nether Mountains there looks like there is some kind of demonic/elemental plane of air deity/primordial that has a grudge against Netheril as well. Several of the settlements suffered from attacks by fiends, air elementals, cloud dragons etc. And a number of incidents happened that were preceded by sightings of winged humanoids (godly manifestation maybe).
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 21:48:18
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Oh and an odd request.
Does anyone know of any spell (maybe a 2nd edition spell) that requires copper as a material component.
It seems that the creator race in the Netheril Basin mined every mountain and ore vein containing copper until the whole basin was depleted.
I am wondering what for, and I'm hoping that it will give some insight as to what magic the Sarrukh may have worked in order to get rid of the Phaerimm.
I realise it was probably only a throw away comment by the people that made the Netheril sourcebook, but from such throwaway comments we actually have the creator races that we know of nowadays so maybe we can turn such a comment into something usable for lore.
It wouldn't necessarily have to be a spell component. Maybe the sarrukh have a thing for copper jewelry or ornaments. Maybe they like the way it smells, or even tastes. Maybe it has some religious value for them. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 23:04:04
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A copper piece is the material component for the second level spell Detect Thoughts or ESP (probably because of the common phrase: a penny for your thoughts ).
If Sarruhk actually had an copper economy set up for powering empire wide mind probing magics it might explain why they were such a succesful empire and why the copper deposits are so depleted. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 23:44:44
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
The reason i am looking at the Netherese origins and migration pattern is that their gods strike me as almost alien to the cultures in the Netheril Basin.
The barbarians use totemic magic and so i assume they worship ancestor spirits (much like those in Rashemen).
The Netherese themselves dont appear to be a very devout bunch at all. If they were indeed from the Hordelands Basin then that would explain why, gods are a recent concept to the Hordelands and before that i would imagine they worshipped ancestor spirits much like the Rashemi.
So where do Jannath, Moander, Targus, Shar, Kozah, Ammaunator, and others come from.
Now Shar is ancient and given the Talfiric connection to shadows (I believe Verraketh the shadowking was Talfiric). Then ideas of her worship would be in caves and paintings all over the Netheril Basin where the Talfiric people dwelled.
So i could easily see the Netherese learning of her worship in that way. Ammaunator may well be a Netherese creation as a natural counterbalance to Shar. So they discover Shar the god of darkness and those that disagree with her ideology venerate the sun which brings Amaunator into being. Or he could also be Talfiric in origin.
Moander has been stated in the Netheril book as being responsible for destroying the creator races in this area so he has been around a long time here and probably had quite a few ancient temples lying around (the Talfiric may even have reverred him as a saviour of sorts for freeing them from the Sarrukh slavery)
However the point i am getting on to is that there were other ruins and archeological remains in the Netheril Basin other than Talfiric humans. The Sarrukh had a very heavy presence in times gone by.
Is it possible that the humans could have come across Sarrukh ruins and accidentally begun venerating ancient Sarrukh deities in their own way. Laogzed or Sseth could have been masquerading as Kozah or Targus and begun granting spells while secretly manipulating the humans to their own ends.
I know it says that these deities were subsumed into other gods later on but it may just be that when Netheril fell the Sarrukh gods stopped granting spells in their name and Tempus then took over granting spells as the Netherese encountered other peoples that worshipped a different war god called Tempus. It may even be that once they were no longer useful the Sarrukh deities simply cast off the Kozah or Targus avatar and left them as separate entities that roamed the Netheril Basin until another god came and claimed them (after all maintaining an avatar must cost some divine power)
Kozah certainly looked at times to be undermining the Netherese empire. At the end his clergy actively targetted the archwizards with assassination squads. Even a god of destruction wouldnt seek to completely destroy the only bastion of worship he has because he would die shortly after, and there was no doubt that by the end the Netherese were being exterminated.
This is definitely the kind of thing I'd like to see explored. The Uthgardt peoples who worship their totems are related at least somewhat to the people that eventually form Rashemen, because the Rashemi are formed from Rus and Raumviran stock (and the Rus came from illuskan stock).
You're right though, the rest of the Pantheon seems an odd amalgamation. Shar coming from the Talfir makes perfect sense.
Jannath and Amaunator coming from the "same" pantheon would make sense, though whether that's the Talfir, fey, or something else entirely, I couldn't say.
Jergal and Targus however are both odd. Jergal is some kind of multi-armed preying mantis (which most think is spellweaver). Targus was also portrayed as some sort of multi-armed being, though not of insectoid looks. I half wonder if Targus wasn't some kind of odd giant-kin deity born possibly of a union between Othea and possibly a fiendish entity... or even Othea and Jergal.
I really like your take on Moander as a "savior" of sorts.
Tyche is definitely the Greek goddess. How she came to be part of this pantheon, unfortunately, we'll have a lot of debate over.
That leaves Mystryl and Selune, which if Shar came from the Talfir, then I'd have to say that Mystryl and Selune were probably from that same pantheon.
The more I've wondered, the more I believe that the Talfir worshipped some kind of Amalgam pantheon, because I'd also personally place the celtic (Silvanus, Oghma... possibly Gond... possibly Diancecht the god of physicians... possibly Ilmatar the goddess of the wind) and Finnish (Mielikki, Loviatar, Kiputytto) additions of Faerun also in this pantheon. They probably also had Tempus in their pantheon, as that has been widely accepted. If we also state that Mystryl, Shar, Selune, Jannath, and Amaunator in this pantheon, its getting rather big and very nature oriented. I picture the Talfir pantheon as larger than the Netherese pantheon because I picture the Talfir as more divinely devoted than arcanely or psionically devoted for their magic. I also picture them having their own god of the dead that Jergal subsumed. Also, similar to the Rashemi, I picture there being a hag culture of some sort on the outskirts of Talfir society, and it was likely these hags that worshipped Loviatar and Kiputytto. I don't picture these hags being organized in any city form though, more like what we see nowadays where they take up residence in small covens.
As another note, I see the Jhaamdath pantheon as having deities from the Talfir pantheon as well, but also having some of their own. I could see the Jhaamdathi absorbing the Talfiric knowledge gods (Oghma, Gond, Diancecht) and possibly the same sun god as a god of order (Amauanator). Of course, they also had Auppenser, and whether he was a member of the Talfir pantheon or somewhere else would be of interest. I also see the Jhaamdathi worshipping Tempus and possibly the martyr god, Issek of the Jug, from the Nehwon Pantheon.
The reason why I list Ilmatar, Diancecht, and Issek of the Jug is that I see something happening to combine the three. For instance, maybe Diancecht (god of physicians) is slain in the Talfir pantheon (how would make a good story). Ilmatar (as a mother-type goddess) is gifted the powers of Diancecht and she becomes known as Ilmater in Jhaamdath, where she is portrayed as either a male or a female deity. Later, perhaps this Ilmater is challenged by say Akadi OR Kozah or Bhaelros or Talos for power over elemental air, and slain and the portfolios previously belonging to Diancecht (healing) are given to Issek of the Jug, who keeps the more well known name of Ilmater.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2014 : 07:05:05
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According to the deific origin myth in Faiths and avatars, Jergal, Moander and Targus were metaphysical byproducts of Shar and Selūne's fighting with each other. Why Jergal appeared as an insectoid alien mummy - well, you'd have to ask Ed or Eric Boyd. I did once hear something back in '06 about Eric's Jergal having something to do with the Age of Worms AP from Dungeon Magazine but I never followed up on it.
Regardless, Jergal, Moander and Targus aren't much older than Jannath (Chauntea) and Mystra if we accept the explanation given by the Sisters of Light and Darkness story.
Sun gods are a given in most primitive cultures. I like to think that Amaunator was created by the collected faith of all those barbarian humans worshiping the sun - looking for a power greater than them to tell them what they should be doing with their lives.
Tyche, yeah, she was greek. How did she get to Faerūn? Probably via the connection that Toril used to share with Earth. As for Kozah, well we really have no clue. Did Kozah have any relationship with Talos, Bhaelros (Talos' Calishite aspect) or (no getting annoyed please) Gruummsh before they all became one and the same being?
Humanity has historically searched for names to put to things that they don't understand. Maybe one day, some proto-netherese guy is walking along, deep in thought and wonders 'what's that dark thing that follows me around when I walk out under the sun?' and Shar goes "It's me. Shar. Want to tell your friends about me?"
Supposition on the Talfiran pantheon is all well and good but I prefer a working theory. As far as I'm aware the only deity with a fairly solid talfiran link was Tempus. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
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Edited by - hashimashadoo on 28 Jan 2014 07:10:19 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2014 : 08:46:28
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I am with you Wooly in that the original thinking for the copper depletion was probably that it is a dietary requirement because on of the designers read that large reptiles need a copper rich intake.
However i would much prefer if we could make something usable and interesting out of it that kind of explains what exactly they did to the Narrow Sea. Maybe if a teleportation or disintegration or even a rock to mud spell required copper then a massive casting affecting hundreds of square miles might require all the copper in the Netheril Basin.
As for the gods, i like Targus as a giantish descendant of Othea, that seems likely given the heavy giant presence in the area and his worship may even have originated in the Ride (where he was probably living when he was a primordial).
I am wary of adding in any more deities than those stated in the Netheril sourcebook. It seems like the Netherese/Talfiric people living in the area have all the ancient gods of Faerun plus Kozah, Targus, and Tyche. This makes sense given that this Talfiric people seem very insular and sheltered from the rest of the world (they are surrounded on all sides by barriers to migration).
Now without importing the rest of the Greek pantheon i can easily think up of a reason why these Talfiric people worshipped only Tyche . . . . Luck.
It just so happened that one day a passing cloud dropped a religious text about Tyche into the Netheril Basin that was found by these Talfiric people who then passed on that worship to the Netherese when they arrived. The text was sucked into the clouds by a mini tornado and just by pure luck fell from the sky into the Netheril Basin.
That way there is no need to come up with any other explanations for how or why they know about Tyche but not Ilmater, or Ilmater but not Sune etc.
Now if any other pantheons have Talfiric gods that is easy because there were other Talfiric peoples spread throughout Faerun, they have slowly mingled with the other races. The Talfiric people in the Netheril Basin lived isolated from the rest of the world for millennia because of the geography.
I also agree with the origin of Amaunator. In the Netheril boxed set it details the creation of a temple of Amaunator in the Hidden Forest by clergy fleeing persecution by the church of Shar. Now Shar we know is ancient and probably well established in the area. Amaunator was probably created by the Netherese people as a counter balance to Shar's darkness, and then his ethos developed to fit the Netherese's needs. His bureaucracy and law could be a reflection of Netherese society and their reliance on laws and rules.
Plus all these Netherese deities mentioned are continued in some form in the Anauroch sourcebook (their names are garbled but i remember coming up with satisfactory explanations for the different names and who the gods really were in another thread on here).
As an interesting aside. It should be noted that the Netheril sourcebook details the vengeful side of Tyche (a.k.a Beshaba) in the city of Shade in -1145. This probably heretical sect of the church did not get on with the benevolent aspect of Tyche in Imbrue (-2745 DR). So i am guessing this is an indication that Tyche has already been infected by Moander and the rot is spreading to her followers.
Although please no one start any Dawn Cataclysm arguments, or godly pantheon arguments. This is purely a Netheril discussion thread and i'm merely noting items of interest that might warrant fixing or further interest. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2014 : 15:31:51
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I am almost certain now that the phaerimm dwelled beneath the Column of the Sky mountains.
There are a number of dates and events that seem to centre around this area and could all be related to the Phaerimm.
-900 DR: The Canton in the Dragonback Peaks begins to recede into the ground and by -339 DR it has completely disappeared.
-835 DR: The phaerimm attack the home of the arcanist Tyvern in the city of Conch (which is situated in the Columns of the Sky mountainst).
-559 DR: The Anauroch desert claims the Heip Lake, Watercourse River and leads to the abandonment of Imbrue as its fields become barren. (This is direcly west of the Column of the Sky mountains).
-507 DR: The former Rengarth settlement of Vandal Station on the shores of the Bay of Ascore is destroyed as it becomes encased in a sheet of ice which freezes all the remaining inhabitants.
-485 DR: The Netherese fishing village of Algid on the shores of the Shadow Sea in the Hidden Forest in southern Netheril is destroyed by the phaerimm. The city of Trinity chooses not to aid their fellow Netherese and instead remain inside the city walls. The survivors of Algid move to nearby settlements and enclaves.
-467 DR: The land around the Netherese city of Remembrance begins turning to sand and people begin to leave the settlement. (This is in the Snouth Mountains just below Heip Lake).
-356 DR: The Netherese settlement of Grog is abandoned as the desert claims it. (This is west of Heip Lake).
Now apart from the entry in -485 about Algid, everything to do with the desertification of the basin radiates outward from the Column of the Sky mountains.
And i think it is all linked to the event in -900 DR.
The Canton River receding says to me there was some kind of underground seismic event that disturbed the course of the water. This area is close to the column of the sky mountains and it need not be a big event to open up a fissure near the headwaters of the river and cause it to drain away before reaching the surface.
I reckon this seismic event woke up the slumbering phaerimm beneath the columns of the sky mountains. This area was Rengarth holy land and was difficult for the Netherese to explore. They abandoned mining attempts in the area millenia earlier because the Rengarth made it difficult for them.
In -835 we have the first sighting of phaerimm. Now at this time i dont think the Netherese knew what phaerimm were, they probably just put it down to fiends from another plane but later realised that it was their ancient foe. So the phaerimm wake up, find out magic is draining being drained from them and find and kill the closest wizard (who lived in Conch just above their heads).
When the magic drain doesnt stop they investigate further and come across Olostin who tells them about the Netherese and so they come up with their master plan and being it beneath the Column of the Sky Mountainst.
Now with any desertification, mountains are a natural barrier. The hot blasting winds of a desert quickly exhaust themselves going up the mountain slope and cool down. So the Channel Mountainst (Teeth of Tagorlar) and the other mountain ranges shield the Seventon region and eastern Netheril from Anauroch for quite some time. So the phaerimm head out west to the Rengarth Ancestral Lands and the Angardt ancestral lands.
The dates of desertification of Heip Lake and the city of Remembrance seem to support this as it slowly creeps west over a hundred years while also heading north up the narrow sea.
Once the desertification gets going its spread will begin to speed up and within the time period of -400 to -300 its area probably doubles, and then doubles again the following 100 years.
Now Algid is an anomaly since it is in the Hidden Forest which is centred on the Shadow Sea. I think what the phaerimm did is a two or even three pronged attack against the Netherese.
While a large group of phaerimm were magic draining the Netheril Basin, another group of phaerimm headed into the heartlands of Netheril and began to stir up trouble. They incited orc and goblin raids, caused natural disasters, and other nasty events to weaken the Netherese from the inside and outside and keep them busy while Anauroch was formed. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2014 : 16:35:35
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dazzler: You may want to review this thread about the phaerimm's use of the lifedrain spell. It gets a bit heated but Lady THO provides insights from Ed's own writings on this subject (and if memory serves one of the posts points to a thread about it in the 'ask Ed' section).
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15368&SearchTerms=lifedrain |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2014 : 01:33:17
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| No worries good sir, glad I could help. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2014 : 05:05:55
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To give you a touch of further insight into "Ed's Netheril", the original idea for enclaves was simply that they were mostly individual wizard holdings/territories within Netheril that were 'enhanced' by magic at the whim of their creators (the term used by Ed in his synopsis was "go wild" idea-wise). They were not exclusively flying cities. Just so you know.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2014 : 06:28:54
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An idea I've tossed out more than once: we know there are other landmasses on Toril, besides Faerūn/Kara-Tur/Zakhara and Maztica/Returned Abeir. But we know next to nothing about most of them...
What if a Netherese flying city was parked over one of those other continents?
What if, thru fluke or being high enough to be saved when the Weave reboot, the city's inhabitants were able to survive the fall?
We know two enclaves survived thru flukes -- Shade popped out sometime before the Fall (accounts vary: either the day before the Fall, the morning of, or during), and Opus was snagged by Selūne during. And Mystra 1.0 caught three of the cities before they could go book.
So it's not impossible that another managed to survive, and no one knew about it because no one called home to tell Mom.
I've got my own thoughts for this theoretical city and its survival (I've been trying to figure out how to use it to have a non-Abeirran type of 4E dragonborn), but I'll share the name I dropped on it: Horizon. It was an enclave formed specifically to act as a very large RV -- a comfortable base of operations for seeing the world.
Oh, and in one of my adventure Hooks, I had another enclave, located somewhere on the floor of the Sea of Swords. It had a big dome of air over it, until the Fall, at which point the dome collapsed, water came rushing in, and that was that. The enclave is now home to a lot of unique, spellcasting, watery undead. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 29 Jan 2014 11:06:00 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2014 : 06:30:12
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well we only have brief details of 20 enclaves out of 30 so if anyone has any ideas for new enclaves go ahead and share.
I dont think anything could be too outlandish for decadent Netheril
I believe the canon number is actually 54. |
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Reimagining Netheril
